It's hopeless to assume never. That's just giving up and resigning to losing.
Better leaders and better messages are needed. You can start to see she if that happening with AOC and send if the fresh faces coming in.
It won't just be them, won't be easy, but it's a fight that must be won.
No its not, its accurately realizing the situation.
This is total nonsense. Dems have proven to be better leaders. Even the allegedly bad Democrats that people like you act like there are that need to be changed, they're still much much much better leaders than the Rubs. "Better messaging" does not work on people choosing to be willfully irrational. Its baffling that you can clearly see that but keep arguing against it. If you keep hoping for messiahs you're never going to accomplish shit. We need real practical, pragmatic people in office, not ones that can blow smoke up our buts or that seem charming.
I do not get your point of view at all. You're essentially saying both the message and the people are wrong. Yet you'll say the message is fine but its the people, but then somehow that makes the message wrong too because it won't reach the people that just want to hear lies about how its some boogeyman to blame that Rubs will tell them. but because Rubs are shit, Which, the only way you reach those people is to lie to them or tell them the same shit, which won't help.
Now, sure we need more younger people really involved in politics and making their voices heard. That happens somewhat naturally (just simply because humans have limited lifespans), but that's not a new problem (younger people inherently will want to care more about other shit than politics). I really don't think there's any big upheaval necessary for all that. I think the more important thing is to live up to the message. Which Democrats are doing (just look how much more diverse Democrat politicians compared to Republicans). Its just taking time (and major social pressure, over stuff like racism and sexism) for the party that actually pushes for diversity to show it. That sucks, but its already happening. They didn't need a change in message, they needed people to open their fucking eyes. That's how its always worked and will always work though. So it wasn't the message it was the voters that needed to change.
That's why you stay on message, but you keep providing evidence for why that message is right, and you keep exposing why the alternate message by the Rubs is so bad. You show the systemic racism that conservatives try to claim wasn't happening. You expose rape culture and the many issues that women face, that again conservatives try to claim isn't real. You expose the bullshit of Rubs policies. You keep hammering it, so that when it happens, or when they try to use the same tactics, they can't (notice how they do everything possible to not call their economic policy trickle-down any more?) or they have to lie and then you hit them over and over about lying.
You do that and it works. It just takes time. And yes, Americans keep going back to believing Rubs' lies. But we don't improve things by pushing for Dems to follow suit.
This is always going to be an ongoing perpetual thing. There's not going to be a magical breakthrough that will fix this stuff, because you're dealing with human nature. You just have to adhere to it and back it up. You don't have to be an insufferable person that's always political, but you need to stand up big and small (big, by voting intelligently, small by calling out people pushing bullshit, be it coworkers, friends, etc - you don't even need to go out of your way to do that, just simple "do you really believe that?" when you hear crazy shit and respond simply with real evidence and then leave it at that).
Really though, its like you guys saying this stuff (that dems need to be better, change, get better leaders, etc) are actually just saying what you want Republicans to do, but you know conservatives won't listen, so you just keep projecting it as a shortfall of the Dems since that's one thing you feel you can influence. You need to recognize the situation and not push for them to go the route that Rubs did. Absolutely put some pressure for them to be good politicians. And pay attention to their voting record, and then let them know good and bad. That is naturally supposed to always be part of the situation. But stop trying to blame the Democrats for the issues that are not theirs.
You don't need to specify Dem/Rub (or whatever party of the country you're in) when you say we need non-corrupt, non lying leaders. That's inherent. So we're left with calling out the corrupt liars. That is our duties as citizens. And it always was, and always will be. That alone makes a huge difference. If some group refuses to do that, you call them out, and when it doesn't matter, you ignore them and focus on the politicians. Look how many Rub politicians have been stepping down simply because they're tired of hearing constantly about how fucking shit them and their policies are? Sure they might be replaced by other shitty Rub politicians, but you keep calling them out as well. And you support the ones that do well, especially when they get attacked by the shitty ones.
What Democrats need, is for Americans to fucking do their goddamn duty as citizens and to keep doing it. Vote, and do so intelligently. Call out politicians when they lie or do shitty things. Hold them accountable.
I don't give a flying fuck about the marketability or other aspects. I know that shit plays a role, and I think that sucks, so I will not champion that as something I want any politician or political party to do. Its already done far more than enough. I don't want someone who is a better marketer. I want someone that has the better product. Politically, I'm going to base it on how they voted, what they say (and if that holds up with how they vote and/or established evidence and knowledge if they don't have a voting record). If they're ignorant, I'll try and inform them. If they show its willful or malicious ignorance, then I'll try to highlight that and work to get them out of office. Yes, sadly, we're stuck having people that might overall do well for out interests, but have some that they don't support well. I will try to inform other people as well. If there's actual worthwhile legit discussion, great, I'll be open to changing my mind based on new information.
Ugh, didn't mean for two long winded posts, but I'm just sick of this "the Dems need to be better" arguments that I feel are often very wrong. I think we're in agreement more than not, and I'm not saying the Dems shouldn't improve or giving them a free pass (just that, right now, its absurd to be saying any of this shit is because of the Dems fault when it can directly be shown to be almost entirely because of Rubs fucking bullshit; so I feel like let's focus on getting those pieces of shit out of the way to get back on track and then we can delve into the more nuanced stuff).
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