Trump will win in a landslide

[[DHT]Osiris]

Most of those universities admit students regardless of their ability to pay.

Athletes and minorities, sure. How many ivy league admission letters is a white farmboy from Iowa getting again?

 

[fskimospy]

Athletes and minorities, sure. How many ivy league admission letters is a white farmboy from Iowa getting again?

No, not athletes and minorities. I have no idea how many ivy league admission letters white farmboys from Iowa get as the admissions data isn't that granular, but probably proportionally more than black students from NYC.

As I already said, if you are admitted to most of those schools and your family makes $0 a year you will still be able to attend as you will get free tuition as well as room and board. Schools of a lesser caliber than the ivy league tend to be the ones you need to make a good living to attend. For example I went to NYU (thanks, GI Bill!). They aren't giving almost anyone a free ride.

 

[HamburgerBoy]

Athletes and minorities, sure. How many ivy league admission letters is a white farmboy from Iowa getting again?

If you can get accepted into an Ivy League on merit alone, they'll generally cover full tuition if your parents make less than in the ballpark of 100k/yr. The UC system also provides full tuition for about half of its students. You've probably been misled by numbers on for-profit scam colleges and assume all legit schools are that expensive too.

 

[LegendKiller]

Trump has a better public record regarding LGBT issues than Clinton. He had to put it on the backburner to appease evangelicals, but that's one of the things you should be the least worried about him messing up.

This is always overlooked. When it comes to minorities he either did better or tied romney. So are 26%+ of Hispanics racist also?

 

[[DHT]Osiris]

If you can get accepted into an Ivy League on merit alone, they'll generally cover full tuition if your parents make less than in the ballpark of 100k/yr. The UC system also provides full tuition for about half of its students. You've probably been misled by numbers on for-profit scam colleges and assume all legit schools are that expensive too.

That's probably true. There's an intense stigma surrounding higher education in the US coinciding with the financial elite, and I probably fell prey to more of the garnish than the meat of that particular argument. It doesn't help that I work for one, and I know the costs/associated students (some of them) who attend are like.

Having said that, there is a problem with the average education level. Causes could be either cost/willingness to attend higher education, the proliferation of 'preferred idiocy' or whatever the common name is now for people who think being dumb is cool, or something else I don't know about.

 

[zinfamous]

Athletes and minorities, sure. How many ivy league admission letters is a white farmboy from Iowa getting again?

It's famously easy for anyone to afford a place like Harvard--you just have to get in.

The Ivy League actually isn't as comparatively expensive as big public schools, because they have massive endowments and so greater access to resources to fund the students that need it--and these are scholarships/grants. And being a smart cookie with a curious intellect from farmville is a ton easier getting into The Ivy League compared to [insert super smart racial stereotype carbon copy metro kid from highly populated amazing urban district] Of course it's rare, but such kids are very rare compared to finding the same product in a populated area where you expect them.

Some public school systems are good for this, too, but then you have state schools--many of which are actually very awesome but primarily: great value for education.

 

[Headfoot]

Naturally, the upper class will do fine, as they always have. I'm talking about public education; you Americans have socialist schools at least, right?

Yes, which is why they are so bad. If you look at results and the tests upon which those results are based from before the federal government took over education policy, you'll notice that it's only been downhill since then. Federal control of education is what enabled disasters like No Child Left Behind and Common Core happen.

Its no coincidence that Department of Education was founded in 1979 and our quality of public k-12 education has done nothing but go down since.

 

[SP33Demon]

This is always overlooked. When it comes to minorities he either did better or tied romney. So are 26%+ of Hispanics racist also?

I heard 35% of hispanics today on Young Turks. And 45% women.

 

[MajinCry]

Yes, which is why they are so bad. If you look at results and the tests upon which those results are based from before the federal government took over education policy, you'll notice that it's only been downhill since then. Federal control of education is what enabled disasters like No Child Left Behind and Common Core happen

So you would rather that the poor, and lower middle class, do not receive education. Rather than provide for everybody, and remedy ailing institutions, you would rather burn the bridge down completely for those that don't have a corpulent bank account.

Psychopathic capitalism. Nice.

 

[Headfoot]

So you would rather that the poor, and lower middle class, do not receive education. Rather than provide for everybody, and remedy ailing institutions, you would rather burn the bridge down completely for those that don't have a corpulent bank account.

Psychopathic capitalism. Nice.

Nice strawman.

It's extraordinarily clear and straightforward. The US has 2 education systems, the university system which is literally the best in the world; and the k-12 system which is middling to poor. What is the major difference? Private and public schools compete with one another for applicants and researchers in the University system. In the k-12 system, you are stuck with whatever dumpy school district you live in and you have very little control or choice over your child's education.

Make k12 more like university in terms of competition and let innovators innovate in education. Imagine if education progressed as fast as tech does. That should be the goal. Not throwing yet more good money after bad money.

 

[Headfoot]

Let me know when your country becomes the hotbed of technological research and outdoes Silicon Valley though, for sure due to your fantastic utopia education system.

 

[sxr7171]

No, not athletes and minorities. I have no idea how many ivy league admission letters white farmboys from Iowa get as the admissions data isn't that granular, but probably proportionally more than black students from NYC.

As I already said, if you are admitted to most of those schools and your family makes $0 a year you will still be able to attend as you will get free tuition as well as room and board. Schools of a lesser caliber than the ivy league tend to be the ones you need to make a good living to attend. For example I went to NYU (thanks, GI Bill!). They aren't giving almost anyone a free ride.

If you get into a top school (not just ivy leagues) and your family can't afford it they usually find a way to get you to attend. That's a lot of merit based schools. If you have the motivation to attend college income for the most part doesn't keep you out. It does make it harder in that you probably won't have the money to party like you're supposed to in American universities.

I've seen people make some of the dumbest decisions in picking colleges. Some will go to an out of state, state school and pay the out of state tuition because some uncle or someone went there.

I've seen people from low(er) income backgrounds choose to go out of state to a worse state school than the one in their state. Or worse choose a private school with high tuitions and no high reputation to back it up.

If you want to get educated there is generally a way. Unless you are talented it won't be a glamourous place but your local state school can launch into any career you want.

 

[HamburgerBoy]

That's probably true. There's an intense stigma surrounding higher education in the US coinciding with the financial elite, and I probably fell prey to more of the garnish than the meat of that particular argument. It doesn't help that I work for one, and I know the costs/associated students (some of them) who attend are like.

Having said that, there is a problem with the average education level. Causes could be either cost/willingness to attend higher education, the proliferation of 'preferred idiocy' or whatever the common name is now for people who think being dumb is cool, or something else I don't know about.

Not sure what you're basing much of this on. We have record college enrollment, and even worldwide we are among the nations that produce the most college grads. The stigma might exist in rural settings, but in any suburban or non-ghetto city situation, there's a constant expectation that you get an X.XX GPA, receive a score of XXXX on the SAT, and get into a college of rank #XX so that you may prove your value as a human being and get a good job.

It really isn't that expensive either if you go public, stay in-state, and look for scholarship/grant opportunities. Undergrad was free for my two years at a lower-tier school in a less-funded state, thanks just to applying for our state's grant program (1/3 of tuition automatically cut) and my parents not making enough money at the time.

 

[zinfamous]

Let me know when your country becomes the hotbed of technological research and outdoes Silicon Valley though, for sure due to your fantastic utopia education system.

I wouldn't dump on our higher education and especially our research centers, as I am of it and know it pretty well, but you should realize that the trend and now real bulk of the "Talent" in Silicon Valley is from foreign-educated immigrants. Hence the demand from Zuckerburg and his cohort for more HB-1s year in and year out. In Silicon Valley, these are primarily post-docs or greater, not so much those coming here to seek graduate education (though that certainly exists).

Also realize that while tons of cool things happen in silicon valley, much of it is diluted by goobers desperate to make a million books on the next pointless "make your selfie look like a Unicorn app." I've never been around a more self-important, oblivious-to-the-world group of unmensches.

 

[sxr7171]

I wouldn't dump on our higher education and especially our research centers, as I am of it and know it pretty well, but you should realize that the trend and now real bulk of the "Talent" in Silicon Valley is from foreign-educated immigrants. Hence the demand from Zuckerburg and his cohort for more HB-1s year in and year out. In Silicon Valley, these are primarily post-docs or greater, not so much those coming here to seek graduate education (though that certainly exists).

Also realize that while tons of cool things happen in silicon valley, much of it is diluted by goobers desperate to make a million books on the next pointless "make your selfie look like a Unicorn app." I've never been around a more self-important, oblivious-to-the-world group of unmensches.

I've pretty much never seen a graduate level class or higher with more than a few token native white people. Let's face it. If you grew up cushy with one member of the family in a high paying union blue collar job would you care to finish high school?

You can't get people who grew up here hungry enough. I can think of maybe a few ethicities that can keep the hunger going into the second generation. By third generation all they want to do is squander all your money on a $300k art history education.

These kids coming in from Eastern Europe and South Asia are hungry. They want to get those high degrees and good jobs.

Meanwhile I can't tell you how many people I see from upper middle class families who are now bumming it around in menial jobs. You really almost cannot get people brought up here to finish high school leave alone one degree. And then add to that a simple undergrad degree is nearly meaningless (bio degree etc.) unless you choose the right field (engineering) or continue on to Law or Medicine.

When you show up to your coffee shop or bar it seems these people came from upper middle class backgrounds but choose service jobs?

 

[Headfoot]

All I'm saying is invention, technological progress, innovation, technology itself is the main and most important outcome/product of higher education. And the US is the indisputably the leader in technology output. Folks commenting on Anandtech's forums of all places should be well aware of that fact. People keep telling me how terrible the US education system - yet we have concrete results that show exactly the opposite.

Don't forget that gainful employment in the best source of useful skills, and gainful employment is part of the whole of an education system. Blue collar work explicitly uses apprenticeships still but the concept still applies throughout an economy.

Some of it is certainly "brain drain" from other countries. But a lot of very big, very influential, very profitable, very cutting edge technology companies were founded by graduates of top-tier American universities like Stanford, UC Berkley, Caltech, MIT, etc. See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_the_largest_information_technology_companies. One flag shows up a lot more often than the others. Bonus points if you realized that every single other county but one appearing on that list has a constitution based on/heavily influenced by the US constitution too.

 

[Headfoot]

Or we can somehow try and rationalize that good education isn't correlated to producing good results, and its all really about some touchy feely Feminist Underwater Dance Therapy degree bullshit. Whatever lets ya sleep well at night.

 

[sxr7171]

I think the US K-12 system is terrible. Higher education in America is top notch. But our K-12 fails to get people interested enough to go to college. Even finish high school. I don't think that's acceptable for the richest nation on earth.

At least in undergrad you see a good number of native raised people. But as you climb up to masters and doctoral the classes are filled with immigrants in the science fields. That system has worked great but what has it done for people born and brought up here beyond nice phones?

 

[dank69]

Have *any* of the leaked emails been "debunked" or shown to be false? It's fine to have misgivings about the source, but to my knowledge there has not been any actual proof of any of the leaked emails being outright made up or false.

It isn't the emails that need to be debunked. The idea that there is anything incriminating in them has been debunked. For example, can you show even one single email that proves Hillary did something illegal?

Just realized that I've called you specifically out to back up your claims about this yet you have not done so and continue to parrot the lie.

 

[imported_tajmahal]

'Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.' George Santayana

Thanks for this little glimpse of history dank69. Still makes you look like a douche.

 

[zinfamous]

'Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.' George Santayana

You're correct, of course. So please remind me why a minority of morons re-elected Mussolini--and in what is very clearly far more prosperous, comfortable, generally equitable circumstances?

It's really quite baffling!

 

[MrSquished]

Nice strawman.

It's extraordinarily clear and straightforward. The US has 2 education systems, the university system which is literally the best in the world; and the k-12 system which is middling to poor. What is the major difference? Private and public schools compete with one another for applicants and researchers in the University system. In the k-12 system, you are stuck with whatever dumpy school district you live in and you have very little control or choice over your child's education.

Make k12 more like university in terms of competition and let innovators innovate in education. Imagine if education progressed as fast as tech does. That should be the goal. Not throwing yet more good money after bad money.

MOST of these foreigners coming in for jobs who are desired workers are also initially the product of a publicly run 'K-12' school system from where they come from. So what does that tell you?

Maybe just like with healthcare we should look at other models in order to guide our way forward

 

[werepossum]

MOST of these foreigners coming in for jobs who are desired workers are also initially the product of a publicly run 'K-12' school system from where they come from. So what does that tell you?

Maybe just like with healthcare we should look at other models in order to guide our way forward

lol If there's one thing the left knows, it's that America is absolutely the worst at, well, everything.

 

[shady28]

lol If there's one thing the left knows, it's that America is absolutely the worst at, well, everything.

Yeah. Makes one wonder why people coming from countries with such fantastic educational and healthcare systems would ever want to migrate to a shithole like the USA?

Perhaps their educational system wasn't so great after all, but then that makes one wonder why they would be highly desirable?

Maybe the most obvious answer - that they are cheap labor (which makes them desirable, for big business) from societies with poor public service and poor infrastructure (which they gladly give up for our substandard services) - is the correct one. But no, that doesn't fit that lefty narrative.

 

[MrSquished]

lol If there's one thing the left knows, it's that America is absolutely the worst at, well, everything.

You are an idiot. We aren't the greatest at everything. There are many things we excel at. However the discussion was about public education, where things are not going well. I also brought in healthcare, where in some metrics we are doing poorly - namely how many people do we cover.

I know it must be easy to be some knee jerk douchebag right winger where it's 'Ra Ra Murica' at everything, but we can learn in some instances from foreign methods.

For some unskilled laborer positions we are clearly not hiring foreigners because of a great education system. This has to do with more skilled workers.

I thought that was a simple enough concept that it would be understood. Obviously not for dumbfuck righties though.