Trump admits to attempted collusion with Russians

[HomerJS]

pete rose:
i didn't gamble!

pete rose:
ok i gambled but not on baseball!

pete rose:
ok ok i gambled on baseball but not on my own team!

pete rose
ok ok ok i gambled on my own team but never to lose!

How soon do they sink to the Nixon defense

 

[Jhhnn]

This puts waaaaaaay too much faith in what will probably be a slim GOP senate majority like we have now. Literally nothing can get them to break with Trump when the prospect of tilting the judiciary to the right for generations is on the table.

President Pence will serve their purposes just as well if not better in that regard.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Please. There's no way Rosenstein will cross that bridge & file charges against Trump. The Constitution is quite clear that a sitting President is answerable only to Congress & to their own Cabinet via the 25th amendment.

Of course Jr & Jared will skate. That's pretty much a given. I don't think Trump can survive the fallout from that, particularly if Dems take the HOR. Trump's only chance of survival is for the GOP to hold Congress.

The entire system is broken. Jr and Jared don't have to skate. The prosecution can take down Trump first assuming there's a case. The Constitution says nothing explicitly on the matter and it's an implied opinion which has never been tested. The Founders lived by a principle in natural law, that no man should sit as a judge in his own defense. Not a literal judge, but have the authority to determine his fate in a criminal matter.

Trump being able to murder people and cannot be stopped until the process of impeachment and removal would earn you crazy points from those who wrote the Constitution. There is always intent and context in judicial matters and you have given the absolute right is mass murder without hindrence (Since Trump cannot be prosecuted there is no legal basis for arrest).

I disagree.

Anyway, we'll see what happens.

 

[Maxima1]

The last may be true just as Trump may be prosecuted while in office. Congress cannot stop Trump from pardoning and in no realistic universe can I see anyone saying "Hey you can't do that" and making that stick. Jr and everyone will walk.

His pardons can be challenged.

Yeah she was one of the witnesses to Trump crafting lie about Trump tower meeting. Trying to get their cover lies straight.

Weird how I'm not seeing much coverage on it. The Lynch-Clinton meeting certainly did.

 

[Maxima1]

Please. There's no way Rosenstein will cross that bridge & file charges against Trump. The Constitution is quite clear that a sitting President is answerable only to Congress & to their own Cabinet via the 25th amendment.

https://twitter.com/tribelaw/status/956872240473235456

"Reminder: SCOTUS has NEVER held that a sitting president is immune from criminal indictment. Such an indictment is far from unthinkable. Unprecedented, sure. But there’s a first time for everything. Scholars who say it’d be unconstitutional are skating on thin ice."

You could potentially go with a sealed indictment with a delayed trial.

 

[Jhhnn]

Only if Republicans do their job which they haven't to date.

They'll turn on Trump in a heartbeat if that's their best possible move. Dealing with their own base will be the hardest part.

 

[trenchfoot]

I honestly think theres millions of people trying to spend decades in self-denial. When they finally wake up they are gonna be SOOO friggen scared!

Left out in the cold without their Trump binky's and MAGA caps to comfort themselves with? Absolutely, for without Trump to protect them from those Mexican rapists and those Muslim terrorists and those baby murdering godless liberal leftists who can they now turn to? Ly'in Ted? Low Energy Jeb? Little Marco? Giuliani? Chris Christie? Kanye West? Any of those other Repub primary opponents that Trump disgraced and ridiculed into obscurity? lol

 

[Jhhnn]

https://twitter.com/tribelaw/status/956872240473235456

"Reminder: SCOTUS has NEVER held that a sitting president is immune from criminal indictment. Such an indictment is far from unthinkable. Unprecedented, sure. But there’s a first time for everything. Scholars who say it’d be unconstitutional are skating on thin ice."

You could potentially go with a sealed indictment with a delayed trial.

The entire system is broken. Jr and Jared don't have to skate. The prosecution can take down Trump first assuming there's a case. The Constitution says nothing explicitly on the matter and it's an implied opinion which has never been tested. The Founders lived by a principle in natural law, that no man should sit as a judge in his own defense. Not a literal judge, but have the authority to determine his fate in a criminal matter.

Trump being able to murder people and cannot be stopped until the process of impeachment and removal would earn you crazy points from those who wrote the Constitution. There is always intent and context in judicial matters and you have given the absolute right is mass murder without hindrence (Since Trump cannot be prosecuted there is no legal basis for arrest).

I disagree.

Anyway, we'll see what happens.

Please, gentlemen. The DoJ cannot effectively indict a sitting President simply because he has the power to fire anybody who does, then appoint a successor who will drop the charges. The proposition is absurd. The Constitution is quite clear that the President first answers to Congress ahead of all else.

The notion that a President can pardon themselves & remain in office is equally absurd. That's an impeachable offense in itself & an invitation for the SCOTUS to intervene. Other than that, the power of a presidential pardon is absolute.

Trump will either fight it to the end & possibly win or Trump & Pence will sit across a table from each other where Trump signs his resignation letter followed immediately by Pence signing a pardon post dated until after his swearing in ceremony. It's not like Trump could trust Pence at all.

Oh- taking Hope Hicks onboard AF1 is an obvious attempt at witness tampering, as well.

 

[Maxima1]

Please, gentlemen. The DoJ cannot effectively indict a sitting President simply because he has the power to fire anybody who does, then appoint a successor who will drop the charges. The proposition is absurd. The Constitution is quite clear that the President first answers to Congress ahead of all else.

You're arguing with Tribe, not me. Though, I don't think it's absurd either. A sealed indictment + delayed trial moots the substantial objections to it.

The notion that a President can pardon themselves & remain in office is equally absurd. That's an impeachable offense in itself & an invitation for the SCOTUS to intervene. Other than that, the power of a presidential pardon is absolute.

It's not absolute. They've already ruled in certain cases that a pardon can't be done. Being able to pardon co-conspirators is just as absurd as self-pardon (which isn't even mentioned in the Constitution as a violation -- countering your own logic),

 

[Linux23]

I loved the fact that he threw Junior under the bus. LMFAO.

 

[BoomerD]

I honestly think theres millions of people trying to spend decades in self-denial. When they finally wake up they are gonna be SOOO friggen scared!

The problem with that is...they'll NEVER wake up. No matter what is said, how many indictment are.handed down, how many convictions are gotten, or even if Trump gets impached and flees to Russia to avoid prosecution...the faithful will remain steadfast.

 

[Jhhnn]

You're arguing with Tribe, not me. Though, I don't think it's absurd either. A sealed indictment + delayed trial moots the substantial objections to it.

So what? You merely dodge the point that prosecution of a sitting president is impossible.

It's not absolute. They've already ruled in certain cases that a pardon can't be done. Being able to pardon co-conspirators is just as absurd as self-pardon (which isn't even mentioned in the Constitution as a violation -- countering your own logic),

Who is this "they" who have ruled?

You're trying to sidestep the very principles of natural law on which the Constitution is based-

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nemo_iudex_in_causa_sua

No SCOTUS would stand for it. It's a moot point, anyway, given the chances of President Pence pardoning former President Trump are greater than 99.99999% with a whole bunch more 9's tacked on.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Please, gentlemen. The DoJ cannot effectively indict a sitting President simply because he has the power to fire anybody who does, then appoint a successor who will drop the charges. The proposition is absurd. The Constitution is quite clear that the President first answers to Congress ahead of all else.

The notion that a President can pardon themselves & remain in office is equally absurd. That's an impeachable offense in itself & an invitation for the SCOTUS to intervene. Other than that, the power of a presidential pardon is absolute.

Trump will either fight it to the end & possibly win or Trump & Pence will sit across a table from each other where Trump signs his resignation letter followed immediately by Pence signing a pardon post dated until after his swearing in ceremony. It's not like Trump could trust Pence at all.

Oh- taking Hope Hicks onboard AF1 is an obvious attempt at witness tampering, as well.

i'd be interested in seeing the SCOTUS ruling explicitly saying that.

 

[Thebobo]

Humpity-Trumpity sat on a wall . . .

Humpity dumpty took a big fall...

 

[Jaskalas]

The problem with that is...they'll NEVER wake up. No matter what is said, how many indictment are.handed down, how many convictions are gotten, or even if Trump gets impached and flees to Russia to avoid prosecution...the faithful will remain steadfast.

I fear that's true.

Their Ego will defend their ID at all costs. No matter how departed from reality it goes.
They identify with Trump. How do we sever that bond?

Is it even possible, or is a segment of our population just bat!@#$ and that's a disability America has to live with?

 

[Jhhnn]

i'd be interested in seeing the SCOTUS ruling explicitly saying that.

It doesn't even matter because Trump can't pardon his way out of impeachment & conviction by Congress. The judicial consequences for Trump can only come into play should that be done.

Either Mueller's report will force Congress to act or it won't. Trump can pardon anybody he wants in the meanwhile. Such pardons would only add fuel to the fire of his impeachment & conviction.

I'm all in favor of whatever it takes to remove Trump from office, even if that means acceptance of sleazy pardons including one for him. The sooner we put the Trump Admin into the dustbin of history, the better.

 

[soulcougher73]

This is a critical point. There' ought to be an order to prosecutions and should think there is. If Mueller charges Jr., the Imperious One will pardon him with "not a crime" being his justification and he is the judge of all that is or is not. If I were Mueller I'd not prosecute anyone above Manafort level (who I believe will be pardoned) who may mean the slightest to Trump, such as his family.

Be patient, gather evidence and when a crushing shot at the King can be made go for it, then go after Jr and others. Pence is screwed up but I wonder if he wants to tangle with a hopefully Democratic controlled House who may look into his closet with things like his knowledge of Flynn and the like.

I’m still amazed in our government we allow pardons. Seems such an easy way to abuse a system.

 

[Moonbeam]

Firing Mueller would create a Constitutional crisis that Trump couldn't possibly survive.

Why not. It’s a witch hunt and a travesty of justice.

It doesn't even matter because Trump can't pardon his way out of impeachment & conviction by Congress. The judicial consequences for Trump can only come into play should that be done.

Either Mueller's report will force Congress to act or it won't. Trump can pardon anybody he wants in the meanwhile. Such pardons would only add fuel to the fire of his impeachment & conviction.

I'm all in favor of whatever it takes to remove Trump from office, even if that means acceptance of sleazy pardons including one for him. The sooner we put the Trump Admin into the dustbin of history, the better.

Bleeding heart liberal, and blah blah blah, and all that. I have conservative values and what they to pay for their crimes. You get no deterrent value with push overs like you. I want Trump to pay for what he has done to my country.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

It doesn't even matter because Trump can't pardon his way out of impeachment & conviction by Congress. The judicial consequences for Trump can only come into play should that be done.

Either Mueller's report will force Congress to act or it won't. Trump can pardon anybody he wants in the meanwhile. Such pardons would only add fuel to the fire of his impeachment & conviction.

I'm all in favor of whatever it takes to remove Trump from office, even if that means acceptance of sleazy pardons including one for him. The sooner we put the Trump Admin into the dustbin of history, the better.

But while proceedings in Congress (there will have to be a trial and due process) continue then Trump can take a weapon and mow people down and law enforcement is powerless since Presidents are immune to consequences if illegal actions. If Trump can act illegally then there is no basis in law to impede or stop him. As Nixon said Presidents cannot break the law.

 

[Maxima1]

So what? You merely dodge the point that prosecution of a sitting president is impossible.

i didn't dodge anything. To think we have to go through an elaborate impeachment process that needs 2/3rds of the Senate for conviction is inane in the presence of social media/highly polarized parties.. I see no problem with the unindicted co-conspirator label nor with a sealed indictment against a president.

Who is this "they" who have ruled?

You're trying to sidestep the very principles of natural law on which the Constitution is based-

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nemo_iudex_in_causa_sua

No SCOTUS would stand for it. It's a moot point, anyway,

It's about offending the Constitution. If one already thinks self-pardons aren't permissible, then it's easy to reason that pardoning co-conspirators is also absurd and aren't permissible. We could just play dumb as you suggest and act like he isn't doing the pardons to protect himself and his grifting crime family, but it makes a mockery out of the Constitution.

http://www.abajournal.com/news/arti...they_are_for_self_benefit_law_profs_say_in_o/

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opin...bfddf6804c2_story.html?utm_term=.30d37e78f14e

given the chances of President Pence pardoning former President Trump are greater than 99.99999% with a whole bunch more 9's tacked on.

I don't think that's a given, since it would likely hurt Pence. The only reason they would do it is if they think they could recover by 2020 (assuming next year Donnie implodes). By the way, this is coming from someone that isn't optimistic about the Republicans losing for decades over this. They'll bring in new people and spend the necessary money to shore up their image. At max, I think Republicans go sour for a presidential term. The public is very stupid. VERY stupid.

 

[Sheik Yerbouti]

I do love how seamlessly they have shifted from ‘NO COLLUSION’ to ‘COLLUSION ISN’T A CRIME’.

First, it’s funny how they have implicitly admitted they were lying before. Second, collusion is most definitely a crime in this case.

Yea, as seamless as this road.

 

[Jhhnn]

But while proceedings in Congress (there will have to be a trial and due process) continue then Trump can take a weapon and mow people down and law enforcement is powerless since Presidents are immune to consequences if illegal actions. If Trump can act illegally then there is no basis in law to impede or stop him. As Nixon said Presidents cannot break the law.

Get fucking real, OK? You're just diving deeper into the realm of the absurd. It's perfectly obvious that the Secret Service would exceed their authority in defense of innocent life. They're not El Presidente's hand picked thugs.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Get fucking real, OK? You're just diving deeper into the realm of the absurd. It's perfectly obvious that the Secret Service would exceed their authority in defense of innocent life. They're not El Presidente's hand picked thugs.

They can grab him but they would then have to illegally detain the President of the United States. Yes, it's absurd but for the purposes of illustration.

I would maintain that no Founder with their perception of justice would ever intend for the Constitution to allow that sort of action by half and at least for Gorsuch, it ought to be a factor.

 

[Jhhnn]

i didn't dodge anything. To think we have to go through an elaborate impeachment process that needs 2/3rds of the Senate for conviction is inane in the presence of social media/highly polarized parties.. I see no problem with the unindicted co-conspirator label nor with a sealed indictment against a president.

So what? You've moved from an open indictment of a sitting president to a sealed indictment to be executed after he's out of office to naming him as a co-conspirator in an indictment against an alleged co-conspirator. Impeachment is an entirely separate issue.

It's about offending the Constitution. If one already thinks self-pardons aren't permissible, then it's easy to reason that pardoning co-conspirators is also absurd and aren't permissible. We could just play dumb as you suggest and act like he isn't doing the pardons to protect himself and his grifting crime family, but it makes a mockery out of the Constitution.

http://www.abajournal.com/news/arti...they_are_for_self_benefit_law_profs_say_in_o/

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/the-presidential-pardon-power-is-not-absolute/2017/09/18/09d3497c-9ca5-11e7-9083-fbfddf6804c2_story.html?utm_term=.30d37e78f14e

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opin...bfddf6804c2_story.html?utm_term=.30d37e78f14e

So, your assertion that "they" (as in any judge) have "ruled" against a president pardoning co-conspirators was mistaken. Various legal experts' opinion isn't any kind of "ruling" & we both know it. The only Constitutional limit on Presidential pardons is in the document itself-

"The President shall be Commander in Chief of the Army and Navy of the United States, and of the Militia of the several States, when called into the actual Service of the United States; he may require the Opinion, in writing, of the principal Officer in each of the executive Departments, upon any Subject relating to the Duties of their respective Offices, and he shall have Power to grant Reprieves and Pardons for Offenses against the United States, except in Cases of Impeachment."

A self pardon would violate natural law on which the Constitution is based.

I don't think that's a given, since it would likely hurt Pence. The only reason they would do it is if they think they could recover by 2020 (assuming next year Donnie implodes). By the way, this is coming from someone that isn't optimistic about the Republicans losing for decades over this. They'll bring in new people and spend the necessary money to shore up their image. At max, I think Republicans go sour for a presidential term. The public is very stupid. VERY stupid.

The GOP will turn on Trump in a heartbeat if they see it as their best move, deal with the consequences down the road. They'd like to avoid that but I doubt they'll be able. If Dems take the HOR then Senatorial Repubs will be forced to deal with it. Those who have 4-6 years left on their terms can vote for conviction with relative impunity, anyway. HOR Republicans can all vote against in order to hold the base in 2020.

Of course Pence has to pardon Trump to hold the base & also to keep Trump from implicating him, as well. Of course it would hurt him with swing voters but it's still his best choice.

 

[Jhhnn]

They can grab him but they would then have to illegally detain the President of the United States. Yes, it's absurd but for the purposes of illustration.

I would maintain that no Founder with their perception of justice would ever intend for the Constitution to allow that sort of action by half and at least for Gorsuch, it ought to be a factor.

Your second paragraph is so muddled as to be meaningless word salad.