davie jambo
Senior member
Because those things sell games obviously
Put it this way
You have two versions of a game , one contains nudity , the other does not
What version will sell more copies ?
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Tropes vs. Women Author Driven From Home
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Because those things sell games obviously
Put it this way
You have two versions of a game , one contains nudity , the other does not
What version will sell more copies ?
Red Storm
Lifer
Because these companies care about making money, that's their bottom line. Sex sells, you see it on HBO shows, ads for various products/services, etc. Why are they in certain video games? Because those video games are predominantly targeted towards or bought by certain types of people, and these people like to see hot babes and big guns. What's the big deal? Should we start a campaign about sexism in romance novels complaining that the covers of those types of books only show bare chested men who are obviously the product of women's fantasies and not reality?
PhatoseAlpha
Platinum Member
Right. So the industry isn't sexist, their customers are.
Wasn't that kind of the point she was making in those videos?
Wasn't that kind of the point she was making in those videos?
In which I quote myself:
You clearly haven't watched her videos, otherwise you'd know that she also praises some games and gameplay, along with highlighting examples where a small adjustment would have improved something from "dubious" to "great". In other words, it's not all "gamers are bad sexists".
But hey, continue riding that white horse of truth as you see it.
master_shake_
Diamond Member
surfsatwerk
Lifer
Considering the forum I was hoping that it was a pony made out of diamonds named Buttstalion.
Funny how those advocating liberty and free speech are happy to justify threats of violence against someone exercising those same rights :awe:
darkewaffle
Diamond Member
Me thinks people underestimate just how personally invested people are in their games. I don't think her situation is unique because of the "games are misogynistic" angle, I think just about anyone who is a game critic is liable to receive much of the same - she might get more because of how visible she is however. Putting your name and face in a video makes it much easier to be painted as a target.
And while I would agree somewhat - I think it's also a matter of art imitating life.
"The use of sexual or domestic violence as a form of scaffolding to prop up dark and edgy environments has become a pervasive pattern in modern gaming."
I would say the presence of sexual or domestic violence in dark, trying environments is a pattern that exists in real life. Areas ravaged by poverty, war, decay and more have a much higher incidence rate (scroll down for sexual violence as it relates to household income) for sexual violence. Could most games set in such scenarios function without such acts being portrayed? Yes. Is it out of place? Not really.
I also think there's some level of cherry picking going on. It's certainly not something specific to women (although you could probably make a case it is more prevalent with them and that male "objects" are rarely sexualized in the same manner*) though. In God of War you push a slave in a cage into a pillar of fire or something to activate a switch. The slave is a male. And prior to that when you defeat the hydra to save the captain and take his key, you kick him down the throat of the beast after he gives it to you. (retroactive lol at the criticism of God of War 3 when such things existed, happening to men, in God of War) In Bioshock, which she references a lot, females and males are both subject to scripted scene horrors (again females often involve a sexual angle that males do not) but they are both 'equally' objectified and disposable. That's the life of a background NPC - not specifically the life of a background female NPC.
And that Watch Dogs bit... I think at some point she just has to accept that games are products of technical boundaries, budgets, time constraints and the diminishing returns of work put into features that don't sell a game. The beaten woman that you can't assist is no different than a man with a gunshot wound that you can't assist. And you can't assist them because ultimately it's a feature that isn't really going to move the needle. Would it be nice? Sure. Is it good business? Probably not.
Why are there not female aggressors? Well, there are hardly any female gang members and most gangs don't have female members. These 'tropes' might be distasteful and maybe too common, but I can't really say that they're wrong either.
I also disagree with her on how it's used in characterization. I would say that more often than not, a background NPC is presented as nothing more than a neutral character. Had the NPC who killed the women in Red Dead Redemption simply walked out of the building, nothing about him would alert me to him being "evil". If I'd seen one of the men beating a women in Watch Dogs simply walking on the sidewalk, there's nothing inherently evil about him. It is the fact that they are committing these acts which makes them evil, not that only evil people commit them. In fact I think the dialogue that frames the events ("I'm not done with you yet" etc) reinforces the fact that a large portion of these acts originate with someone the victim knows, not simply an evil stranger.
I disagree with how she composites what's logical and what's realistic into one idea as well. They are two distinct thoughts. What's real is a representation of something in real life. But what's logical and unreal can still feel real (a dragon) it if behaves in a way that is cohesive. If you build an alternate universe where no sexual violence is depicted that's fine. But if people are still at war, people are still poor, people are still at odds with each other and fighting and conflicting like so many games rely on - I think sexual violence exists even if you don't see it. If you say "this universe has all this happening... except theres no violence against women" I don't think that's cohesive because those problems are too complex and interwoven to be able to simply eradicate one and just one fullstop.
I do understand that she wants to see the inclusion of such events treated with more gravity, but ultimately these games aren't about sexual violence or humanizing disposable NPCs or social critique. It's about telling a story and selling a game and doing so with finite resources. Not every character can have a story and a satisfying resolution and a happy ending and developers often have to rely on tried and true, albeit possibly insensitive and heavy handed, methods to get a point across which often result in collateral damage to anonymous NPCs, both male and female.
*Curiously, one of the most vivid, and possibly even disturbing acts of sexual violence in my recollection is actually male on male by way of Buck in Farcry 3. That guy was twisted.
And while I would agree somewhat - I think it's also a matter of art imitating life.
"The use of sexual or domestic violence as a form of scaffolding to prop up dark and edgy environments has become a pervasive pattern in modern gaming."
I would say the presence of sexual or domestic violence in dark, trying environments is a pattern that exists in real life. Areas ravaged by poverty, war, decay and more have a much higher incidence rate (scroll down for sexual violence as it relates to household income) for sexual violence. Could most games set in such scenarios function without such acts being portrayed? Yes. Is it out of place? Not really.
I also think there's some level of cherry picking going on. It's certainly not something specific to women (although you could probably make a case it is more prevalent with them and that male "objects" are rarely sexualized in the same manner*) though. In God of War you push a slave in a cage into a pillar of fire or something to activate a switch. The slave is a male. And prior to that when you defeat the hydra to save the captain and take his key, you kick him down the throat of the beast after he gives it to you. (retroactive lol at the criticism of God of War 3 when such things existed, happening to men, in God of War) In Bioshock, which she references a lot, females and males are both subject to scripted scene horrors (again females often involve a sexual angle that males do not) but they are both 'equally' objectified and disposable. That's the life of a background NPC - not specifically the life of a background female NPC.
And that Watch Dogs bit... I think at some point she just has to accept that games are products of technical boundaries, budgets, time constraints and the diminishing returns of work put into features that don't sell a game. The beaten woman that you can't assist is no different than a man with a gunshot wound that you can't assist. And you can't assist them because ultimately it's a feature that isn't really going to move the needle. Would it be nice? Sure. Is it good business? Probably not.
Why are there not female aggressors? Well, there are hardly any female gang members and most gangs don't have female members. These 'tropes' might be distasteful and maybe too common, but I can't really say that they're wrong either.
I also disagree with her on how it's used in characterization. I would say that more often than not, a background NPC is presented as nothing more than a neutral character. Had the NPC who killed the women in Red Dead Redemption simply walked out of the building, nothing about him would alert me to him being "evil". If I'd seen one of the men beating a women in Watch Dogs simply walking on the sidewalk, there's nothing inherently evil about him. It is the fact that they are committing these acts which makes them evil, not that only evil people commit them. In fact I think the dialogue that frames the events ("I'm not done with you yet" etc) reinforces the fact that a large portion of these acts originate with someone the victim knows, not simply an evil stranger.
I disagree with how she composites what's logical and what's realistic into one idea as well. They are two distinct thoughts. What's real is a representation of something in real life. But what's logical and unreal can still feel real (a dragon) it if behaves in a way that is cohesive. If you build an alternate universe where no sexual violence is depicted that's fine. But if people are still at war, people are still poor, people are still at odds with each other and fighting and conflicting like so many games rely on - I think sexual violence exists even if you don't see it. If you say "this universe has all this happening... except theres no violence against women" I don't think that's cohesive because those problems are too complex and interwoven to be able to simply eradicate one and just one fullstop.
I do understand that she wants to see the inclusion of such events treated with more gravity, but ultimately these games aren't about sexual violence or humanizing disposable NPCs or social critique. It's about telling a story and selling a game and doing so with finite resources. Not every character can have a story and a satisfying resolution and a happy ending and developers often have to rely on tried and true, albeit possibly insensitive and heavy handed, methods to get a point across which often result in collateral damage to anonymous NPCs, both male and female.
*Curiously, one of the most vivid, and possibly even disturbing acts of sexual violence in my recollection is actually male on male by way of Buck in Farcry 3. That guy was twisted.
I've gotten death threats and such against me and my family, and I'm hardly an internet personality like Sarkeesian. If you have any presence at all you will get people who are in it for the lulz, but you will get some people who are just plain struggling with mental illness. It sucks and it's far from justifiable but it's a statistical inevitability. The wrong thing to do is start blaming your audience at large or society for the instability of a tiny minority of people on the internet.
I do hope that people who post death threats along with home addresses are caught and incarcerated.
I do hope that people who post death threats along with home addresses are caught and incarcerated.
Bateluer
Lifer
I dunno, I'd argue that a good journalist doesn't lie or fabricate the evidence to invent facts to suit her agenda. A number of popular gaming YouTube channels have utterly demolished Sarkeesian's 'evidence'.
Does it excuse people sending her death threats? Not in the slightest.
If you actually break down her approach, what she says, her ideas, etc. it's vividly clear she's got mental issues.
Blue_Max
Diamond Member
Maybe the ones making the nastiest """"threats"""" *cough* are the women who threw money at her kickstarter, only to see it spent on pretty shoes instead of more/better videos.
Sarkeesian is a liar, a thief, and gleefully promoting the idea that men are baaad.
...and now this stunt, which only shows how she'll exploit anything for stage time, publicity, and free cash.
Sarkeesian is a liar, a thief, and gleefully promoting the idea that men are baaad.
...and now this stunt, which only shows how she'll exploit anything for stage time, publicity, and free cash.
Since when do people owe KS pledgers anything more than what their KS says they'll deliver?
If you pledge $5 for something it doesn't matter if one other person pledge or a million other people pledged, you still gave what you gave with the expectation of getting a fixed and specific thing. If the project wants to add stretch goals or whatever that's great but they don't have to.
This is like demanding that a game developer gives you another game for free because that game you bought sold like crazy and made them a lot of money. Maybe this would make sense if KS was only meant for non-profit organizations but it isn't.
Red Storm
Lifer
No it doesn't excuse anything, but my main point to the other poster was that it's the Internet, you'll get death threats and other stupid stuff from random people even if you don't do anything, so this lady trying to draw more publicity by pointing to the weirdos on the Internet is a sign to not put much faith in her.
CakeMonster
Golden Member
Some of the comments here are pretty disheartening...
I've seen her videos and her points are pretty rational, lucid, and moderate. I don't agree with it all but there's nothing outlandish or deranged there. She does not appear mentally ill. She doesn't say anything that vilifies men nor does she give the impression that she hates men. She doesn't argue for any political party or organization. She doesn't argue for banning video games. She does not claim that there is a conspiracy.
She's just saying that the representation of women in video games are often very one-dimensional, very stereotypical, some times (to her) offensive. And she wants to point out how. The reasons for the way women are portrayed is anyone's guess and most likely its complicated as hell. She thinks its a problem. Some disagree with her. That's all fine.
So the most rabid rants directed at her I suspect must be from people who have not even seen her videos or know what her points are. Some people are extremely quick to jump bandwagons without even doing their research. I frankly don't see why anyone would have the kind of meltdown over what she does, if you're one of those who thinks feminism is crazy or out of hand, she's still the wrong target.
I've seen her videos and her points are pretty rational, lucid, and moderate. I don't agree with it all but there's nothing outlandish or deranged there. She does not appear mentally ill. She doesn't say anything that vilifies men nor does she give the impression that she hates men. She doesn't argue for any political party or organization. She doesn't argue for banning video games. She does not claim that there is a conspiracy.
She's just saying that the representation of women in video games are often very one-dimensional, very stereotypical, some times (to her) offensive. And she wants to point out how. The reasons for the way women are portrayed is anyone's guess and most likely its complicated as hell. She thinks its a problem. Some disagree with her. That's all fine.
So the most rabid rants directed at her I suspect must be from people who have not even seen her videos or know what her points are. Some people are extremely quick to jump bandwagons without even doing their research. I frankly don't see why anyone would have the kind of meltdown over what she does, if you're one of those who thinks feminism is crazy or out of hand, she's still the wrong target.
artemicion
Golden Member
Agree. I literally read through some of the posts in this thread and thought to myself, "Wow, need to stop going to AT Forums." Thank God at least you have some sense.
Blitzvogel
Platinum Member
Her arguments are valid to a degree but games are generally made for boys and men. I guess I should go on a rant because make up is always marketed towards women?
If women want more games made for them then they need to get into those kinds of degree programs instead of focusing on activism or w/e social BS because realistically change comes from action, not bitching.
If women want more games made for them then they need to get into those kinds of degree programs instead of focusing on activism or w/e social BS because realistically change comes from action, not bitching.
From some of the developers of Bioshock 2:
https://twitter.com/nullspeak/status/504045057507217408
https://twitter.com/vectorpoem/status/430896253652582400
quikah
Diamond Member
Agree or disagree with her message, you cannot deny that she has not really delivered on that KS. It funded over 2 years ago and she is on the 3rd video in the promised 11.
cmdrdredd
Lifer
This people...read this and move on.
She's not looking at the games, she is trying to tear down the games industry under the guise of feminism.
Last edited:
1. http://www.feministfrequency.com/2013/03/damsel-in-distress-part-1/
2. http://www.feministfrequency.com/2013/05/damsel-in-distress-part-2-tropes-vs-women/
3. http://www.feministfrequency.com/2013/08/damsel-in-distress-part-3-tropes-vs-women/
4. http://www.feministfrequency.com/2013/11/ms-male-character-tropes-vs-women/
5. http://www.feministfrequency.com/2014/06/women-as-background-decoration-tropes-vs-women/
6. http://www.feministfrequency.com/2014/08/women-as-background-decoration-part-2/
In other words, longer videos, split into multiple parts.
Riiiight, because women don't play games at all.
Okay, but that's a different problem. A ton of people have been arguing that she should be giving well beyond what the KS promises because she got well beyond what she asked for. That's not how it works. This sort of complaining happens all the time with KS projects though. Generally the complaining comes from people who didn't pledge in the first place.
BoberFett
Lifer
I never finished Skyrim when it came out, so I went back and started a new character a few weeks ago. A badass Nord chick, sporting heavy armor that covers everything and a two handed sword. Magic and sneaking? Screw that. Rush into battle and start lopping off heads.
But I suppose the fact that some NPC females in that game are portrayed as housewives proves that the whole game industry is misogynist?
But I suppose the fact that some NPC females in that game are portrayed as housewives proves that the whole game industry is misogynist?
cmdrdredd
Lifer
Exactly...selectively pick out only the examples that illustrate whatever point you want to make.
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