Troops moral in the Crapper

Zebo

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Jul 29, 2001
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'Waiting to Get Blown Up'
Some Troops in Baghdad Express Frustration With the War and Their Mission

By Joshua Partlow
Washington Post Staff Writer
Thursday, July 27, 2006; A01

BAGHDAD, July 26 Army Staff Sgt. Jose Sixtos considered the simple question about morale for more than an hour. But not until his convoy of armored Humvees had finally rumbled back into the Baghdad military base, and the soldiers emptied the ammunition from their machine guns, and passed off the bomb-detecting robot to another patrol, did he turn around in his seat and give his answer.

"Think of what you hate most about your job. Then think of doing what you hate most for five straight hours, every single day, sometimes twice a day, in 120-degree heat," he said. "Then ask how morale is."

Frustrated? "You have no idea," he said.

As President Bush plans to deploy more troops in Baghdad, U.S. soldiers who have been patrolling the capital for months describe a deadly and infuriating mission in which the enemy is elusive and success hard to find. Each day, convoys of Humvees and Bradley Fighting Vehicles leave Forward Operating Base Falcon in southern Baghdad with the goal of stopping violence between warring Iraqi religious sects, training the Iraqi army and police to take over the duty, and reporting back on the availability of basic services for Iraqi civilians.

But some soldiers in the 2nd Battalion, 6th Infantry Regiment, 1st Armored Division -- interviewed over four days on base and on patrols -- say they have grown increasingly disillusioned about their ability to quell the violence and their reason for fighting. The battalion of more than 750 people arrived in Baghdad from Kuwait in March, and since then, six soldiers have been killed and 21 wounded.

"It sucks. Honestly, it just feels like we're driving around waiting to get blown up. That's the most honest answer I could give you," said Spec. Tim Ivey, 28, of San Antonio, a muscular former backup fullback for Baylor University. "You lose a couple friends and it gets hard."

"No one wants to be here, you know, no one is truly enthused about what we do," said Sgt. Christopher Dugger, the squad leader. "We were excited, but then it just wears on you -- there's only so much you can take. Like me, personally, I want to fight in a war like World War II. I want to fight an enemy. And this, out here," he said, motioning around the scorched sand-and-gravel base, the rows of Humvees and barracks, toward the trash-strewn streets of Baghdad outside, "there is no enemy, it's a faceless enemy. He's out there, but he's hiding."

"We're trained as an Army to fight and destroy the enemy and then take over," added Dugger, 26, of Reno, Nev. "But I don't think we're trained enough to push along a country, and that's what we're actually doing out here."

"It's frustrating, but we are definitely a help to these people," he said. "I'm out here with the guys that I know so well, and I couldn't picture myself being anywhere else."
'Never-Ending Battle'

After a five-hour patrol on Saturday through southern Baghdad neighborhoods, soldiers from the 1st Platoon sat on wooden benches in an enclosed porch outside their barracks. Faces flushed and dirty from the grit and a beating sun, they smoked cigarettes and tossed them at a rusted can that said "Butts."

The commanders in Baghdad and the Pentagon are "looking at the big picture all the time, but for us, we don't see no big picture, it's just always another bomb out here," said Spec. Joshua Steffey, 24, of Asheville, N.C. The company's commanding officer, Capt. Douglas A. DiCenzo of Plymouth, N.H., and his gunner, Spec. Robert E. Blair of Ocala, Fla., were killed by a roadside bomb in May.

Steffey said he wished "somebody would explain to us, 'Hey, this is what we're working for.' " With a stream of expletives, he said he could not care less "if Iraq's free" or "if they're a democracy."

"The first time somebody you know dies, the first thing you ask yourself is, 'Well, what did he die for?' "

"At this point, it seems like the war on drugs in America," added Spec. David Fulcher, 22, a medic from Lynchburg, Va., who sat alongside Steffey. "It's like this never-ending battle, like, we find one IED, if we do find it before it hits us, so what? You know it's just like if the cops make a big bust, next week the next higher-up puts more back out there."

"My personal opinion, I don't speak for the rest of anybody, I just speak for me personally, I think civil war is going to happen regardless," Steffey responded. "Maybe this country needs it: One side has to win. Be it Sunni, be it Shiite, one side has to win. It's apparent, these people have made it obvious they can't live in unity."


It was dark now save for one fluorescent light and the cigarette tips glowing red.

"I mean, if you compare the casualty count from this war to, say, World War II, you know obviously it doesn't even compare," Fulcher said. "But World War II, the big picture was clear -- you know you're fighting because somebody was trying to take over the world, basically. This is like, what did we invade here for?"

"How did it become, 'Well, now we have to rebuild this place from the ground up'?" Fulcher asked.

He kept talking. "They say we're here and we've given them freedom, but really what is that? You know, what is freedom? You've got kids here who can't go to school. You've got people here who don't have jobs anymore. You've got people here who don't have power," he said. "You know, so yeah, they've got freedom now, but when they didn't have freedom, everybody had a job."

Steffey got up to leave the porch and go to bed.

"You know, the point is we've lost too many Americans here already, we're committed now. So whatever the [expletive] end-state is, whatever it is, we need to achieve it -- that way they didn't die for nothing," he said. "We're far too deep in this now."
'Our Biggest Fear'

The largest risk facing the soldiers is the explosion of roadside bombs, known among soldiers as improvised explosive devices, or IEDs, the main killer of U.S. troops in Iraq. Battalion commanders say they have made great strides clearing the main highways through their southern Baghdad jurisdiction, including the north-south thoroughfare they call Route Jackson, but insurgents continue to adapt.

"We do an action, he counters it. It's a constant tug of war," said Sgt. 1st Class Scott Wilmot, an IED analyst with the battalion. "From where I sit, the [number of] IEDs continually, gradually, goes up."

Each day, U.S. and Iraqi soldiers patrolling neighborhoods such as Sadiyah, al-Amil and Bayaa -- an area of about 40 square miles where about half a million people live -- encounter an average of one to two roadside bombs, often triggered remotely by someone watching the convoys, he said.

"Motorola radios, cellphones, garage door openers, remote-controlled doorbells. Anything that can transmit, they can, in theory, use," Wilmot said. "Anybody who thinks they're stupid is wrong."

After the bombing in February of a golden-domed Shiite shrine in Samarra, sectarian killings between rival Shiite and Sunni Muslim factions exploded, and have continued to take thousands of Iraqi lives despite a security crackdown in Baghdad that started last month. U.S. military commanders in Baghdad say the killings extend beyond sectarian motives, to include tribal rivalries, criminal activity and intra-sect gang warfare. Most of the killing takes place out of sight of the Americans, commanders said.

"At this point, it's getting a little difficult to tell which groups are responsible," said Capt. Eric Haas of Williamsburg, Va., an intelligence officer for the 2nd Battalion. "Our biggest fear is this turning into a Bosnia-Kosovo situation" where the police are allowing the slaughter to take place.

"We're definitely making progress," he added. "It's going to take some time to get there."

Into this fray, day and night, come the U.S. soldiers. Each infantryman conducts an average of 10 patrols a week, for a total of 50 to 60 grueling hours, "and it is having an effect," said the battalion's executive officer, Maj. Jeffrey E. Grable.

"Sometimes it's not obvious, the fruit of their labor," said Grable. But the patrols have "a deterrent effect on sectarian violence. Unfortunately, we just cannot be everywhere all the time."
'Only Promises'

The patrol led by Capt. Mike Comstock, 27, of Boise, Idaho -- two Humvees and a Bradley Fighting Vehicle -- started at 1 p.m. on Saturday. At about 15 miles per hour, the patrol passed down blighted Iraqi streets with dozens of cars waiting in gas lines, piles of smoldering trash, rubble-strewn vacant lots and gaping bomb craters.

On one stop, the patrol pulled up to the Saadiq al-Amin mosque in the Bayaa neighborhood. Some mosques in the city have stockpiled weapons and been operations centers for insurgents -- used, said one officer, "like we use National Guard armories back home."

"How are you doing today, sir? A little hot?" Comstock asked Walid Khalid, 45, the second-ranking cleric of the Sunni mosque, who opened the gate wearing sandals and a white dishdasha , a traditional robe.

"Our imam was killed three weeks ago," Khalid said through an interpreter.

"This is actually the first I've heard about this," Comstock said, taking notes.

"The people around here are afraid to come here to pray on Fridays," Khalid said, going on to explain that the mosque didn't have water or electricity. He said that he was worried about corrupt Iraqi police attacking the mosque, and that he needed permits for the four AK-47 assault rifles he kept inside.

"Would it help if we brought the national police here so you could meet them?" Comstock asked. "Maybe you guys could start building trust together."

"We would like to cooperate, but sometimes those people come to attack us, and we want to defend the mosque," Khalid said. "Inside the mosque is our border. If they cross this line, we will shoot these guys."

Comstock's patrol stopped at Bayaa homes and shops to conduct a "SWET assessment": checking the sewage, water and electricity services available to residents. Most said the sewage service was adequate, but the electricity functioned no more than four hours a day. Some said they had little running water and dumped their trash along the main streets. Inner neighborhood roads were blocked with slabs of concrete and the trunks of palm trees. The most repeated concern among residents was a lack of safety.

"I can't fix electricity or sewers all the time. We recommend projects to be done," Comstock told Muhammed Adnan, a Bayaa resident. "Patrolling your neighborhood is one thing we can do. I hope that helps."

"We just receive promises around here, nothing else," Adnan, 40, told Comstock. "Three years, just promises, and promises and promises."

Comstock wrote down the words: "only promises."

Read the whole thing it's a good insight. Comment? Well it's FUBAR what else can i say?
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co...cle/2006/07/26/AR2006072601666_pf.html
 

Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
35,847
10,155
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Originally posted by: RichardE
I agree with the we need a civil war. Let one side when, than build the country.

We do, or they do? ;)

Yes, getting the troops out of harms way does seem like the only choice. Especially after the choice of rooting out our opponents was deemed too costly for our opponents to handle.
 

episodic

Lifer
Feb 7, 2004
11,088
2
81
We just need to get out of this quaqmire. Come home now.

After all we are not searching for Bin Laden anymore - he was who did it (supposedly). ..
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,764
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Originally posted by: RichardE
I agree with the we need a civil war. Let one side when, than build the country.

No we don't. Here's an alternative plan:

We could just identify all the people on earth who think like you do and kill all of them. There would be so many fewer people there'd be no need to fight and the the most useless portion of humanity would be dead. Now that would be win win.

What kind of an emotionally dead prick does it take to look at people like things that need to be wiped away. You are one sick son of a bitch.
 

jackschmittusa

Diamond Member
Apr 16, 2003
5,972
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Good plan Moonbeam. Especially if it provokes RichardE to consider the similarities between his way of thinking and your suggestion.
 

kage69

Lifer
Jul 17, 2003
31,430
47,782
136
We need to honor the dead and injured with more dead and injured. Pulling out would only mean they were sacrificed for nothing...like a bogus story concerning WMD deployable in 45 min or something...

We must stay the course, no matter how counter-productive it is. No matter how much conditions on the ground are in stark contrast to the stories we're fed at home. To do otherwise would be clearly un-American.

Maybe the next admin, in addition to being competent, won't consider our military an expendable commodity more disposable than fossil fuels. *sigh* We can onlyhope.

 

judasmachine

Diamond Member
Sep 15, 2002
8,515
3
81
oh my god. the warhawks' propaganda machine isn't getting through much anymore. that and ask any vietnam vet, even the ones who were enthusiatic about going what it's like after the first month or few...
 

RichardE

Banned
Dec 31, 2005
10,246
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Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Originally posted by: RichardE
I agree with the we need a civil war. Let one side when, than build the country.

No we don't. Here's an alternative plan:

We could just identify all the people on earth who think like you do and kill all of them. There would be so many fewer people there'd be no need to fight and the the most useless portion of humanity would be dead. Now that would be win win.

What kind of an emotionally dead prick does it take to look at people like things that need to be wiped away. You are one sick son of a bitch.

Only problem with your plan moonbeam is my thoughts do not include killing the guy who lives next door because he is buddhist and I am athiest. These people don't think "we want a civil war" they think "we want to kill (insert someone here) because they insult our (insert religion here)". If Iraq has a civil war, one side will win and that will be the end of it. We let it happen in Rwanda without interfering. Of course, they don't have oil.
 

jrenz

Banned
Jan 11, 2006
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You know, the point is we've lost too many Americans here already, we're committed now. So whatever the [expletive] end-state is, whatever it is, we need to achieve it -- that way they didn't die for nothing," he said. "We're far too deep in this now."

"We're definitely making progress," he added. "It's going to take some time to get there."

"Sometimes it's not obvious, the fruit of their labor," said Grable. But the patrols have "a deterrent effect on sectarian violence. Unfortunately, we just cannot be everywhere all the time."

Just a little bit of positive opinion out of that article
 

DAPUNISHER

Super Moderator CPU Forum Mod and Elite Member
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Aug 22, 2001
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Originally posted by: jrenz
You know, the point is we've lost too many Americans here already, we're committed now. So whatever the [expletive] end-state is, whatever it is, we need to achieve it -- that way they didn't die for nothing," he said. "We're far too deep in this now."
The Translation I get: when going through hell, keep going!

"We're definitely making progress," he added. "It's going to take some time to get there."
Positive comment.

"Sometimes it's not obvious, the fruit of their labor," said Grable. But the patrols have "a deterrent effect on sectarian violence. Unfortunately, we just cannot be everywhere all the time."
The Translations I get: We are the light, they are the roachs, turn off the light and Oh Boy!

Just a little bit of positive opinion out of that article More rationalizing for sake of maintaining sanity, than positive attitude IMHO

 

rickn

Diamond Member
Oct 15, 1999
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it will end, once we drain all the oil.

what did they expect when they signed up for this? a free education and nothing else? war is hell.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,764
6,770
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Originally posted by: RichardE
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Originally posted by: RichardE
I agree with the we need a civil war. Let one side when, than build the country.

No we don't. Here's an alternative plan:

We could just identify all the people on earth who think like you do and kill all of them. There would be so many fewer people there'd be no need to fight and the the most useless portion of humanity would be dead. Now that would be win win.

What kind of an emotionally dead prick does it take to look at people like things that need to be wiped away. You are one sick son of a bitch.

Only problem with your plan moonbeam is my thoughts do not include killing the guy who lives next door because he is buddhist and I am athiest. These people don't think "we want a civil war" they think "we want to kill (insert someone here) because they insult our (insert religion here)". If Iraq has a civil war, one side will win and that will be the end of it. We let it happen in Rwanda without interfering. Of course, they don't have oil.

How are things going in Rwanda. Has it become a paradise? Are you proud of our inaction?
 

kage69

Lifer
Jul 17, 2003
31,430
47,782
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We let it happen in Rwanda without interfering. Of course, they don't have oil.


Rwanda wasn't a civil war, it was ethnic genocide. The Hutus were already the majority and in control of the government and military. Ethnic cleansing and sectarian terrorism are not one and the same.
 

JEDI

Lifer
Sep 25, 2001
29,391
2,738
126
ah.. Vietnam II, the false war that broke America's back

or

Vietnam II, America's fall

or

Vietnam II, <insert catchy slogan here>
 

Doboji

Diamond Member
May 18, 2001
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hmm gee whiz... that article sounds like they're fighting a war. go figure.

 

Kalmah

Diamond Member
Oct 2, 2003
3,692
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Originally posted by: Doboji
hmm gee whiz... that article sounds like they're fighting a war. go figure.

Not really... It sounds like exactly as he put it. And I'm sure he would have more of an understanding of it than you.
It seems completely rational for them to say what they are. They are just driving around haphazardly hopeing that the next car that passes by doesn't have a bomb. Their is no 'enemy', no 'target'... Put yourself in their shoes; join the military then come back to anandtech and spout your crap.

 

RichardE

Banned
Dec 31, 2005
10,246
2
0
Originally posted by: kage69
We let it happen in Rwanda without interfering. Of course, they don't have oil.


Rwanda wasn't a civil war, it was ethnic genocide. The Hutus were already the majority and in control of the government and military. Ethnic cleansing and sectarian terrorism are not one and the same.

Hod did it end? Tutsi overthrew the government.
 

kage69

Lifer
Jul 17, 2003
31,430
47,782
136
Hod did it end? Tutsi overthrew the government.

...and installed a moderate Hutu as president. Did the violence escalate into a civil war, kinda yes, but in response to a carefully orchestrated genocide where more civilians were killed than actual combatants. The real civil war, fought over political power occured back in the 60s I believe - a seperate conflict from the massacres of the 1990s.


Was it a horrible event that showed the ineffectiveness and lack of resolve by the UN? Absolutely. I just don't think you can really compare it to the current day mess in Iraq, one that has a disturbing religious flavor to it.
 

RichardE

Banned
Dec 31, 2005
10,246
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Originally posted by: kage69
Hod did it end? Tutsi overthrew the government.

...and installed a moderate Hutu as president. Did the violence escalate into a civil war, kinda yes, but in response to a carefully orchestrated genocide where more civilians were killed than actual combatants. The real civil war, fought over political power occured back in the 60s I believe - a seperate conflict from the massacres of the 1990s.


Was it a horrible event that showed the ineffectiveness and lack of resolve by the UN? Absolutely. I just don't think you can really compare it to the current day mess in Iraq, one that has a disturbing religious flavor to it.

I guess it depends on what you consider a civil war. Two factions within a country vying for power killing each other. The way you consider it though, Iraq would not be a civil war, but rather attempted genocide by either side.

Civl war, as defined by the dictionary is

civil war
n.

1. A war between factions or regions of the same country.

In the strictest sense of the definition, Rwanda, as well as Iraq are both civil wars.
 

kage69

Lifer
Jul 17, 2003
31,430
47,782
136
The way you consider it though, Iraq would not be a civil war, but rather attempted genocide by either side.


I must have missed where 800,000+ Sunnis were slaughtered by Shi'ites over cultural tensions.

Your strict defintion avoids the fact that the Iraq situation was ignited by a foreign invasion and continues to be a playing field for a variety of religious and political interests. Rwanda was a little more simple and was a local affair. But yes, members of the same nationality did indeed kill eachother.

But hey look, the UN pulled out of both!
 

RichardE

Banned
Dec 31, 2005
10,246
2
0
Originally posted by: kage69
The way you consider it though, Iraq would not be a civil war, but rather attempted genocide by either side.


I must have missed where 800,000+ Sunnis were slaughtered by Shi'ites over cultural tensions.

Your strict defintion avoids the fact that the Iraq situation was ignited by a foreign invasion and continues to be a playing field for a variety of religious and political interests. Rwanda was a little more simple and was a local affair. But yes, members of the same nationality did indeed kill eachother.

But hey look, the UN pulled out of both!



Well...what more were you expecting of the UN :p
 

alchemize

Lifer
Mar 24, 2000
11,486
0
0
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Originally posted by: RichardE
I agree with the we need a civil war. Let one side when, than build the country.

No we don't. Here's an alternative plan:

We could just identify all the people on earth who think like you do and kill all of them. There would be so many fewer people there'd be no need to fight and the the most useless portion of humanity would be dead. Now that would be win win.

What kind of an emotionally dead prick does it take to look at people like things that need to be wiped away. You are one sick son of a bitch.

/Mode_Moonbeam
Yes, but then you'd have an infinite loop, because you'd always have to kill the people that killed off the poeple that think like that. The snake would eat it's tail.
/Moonbeam