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Treasury?s Plan Would Give Fed Wide New Power

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Originally posted by: GrGr
This is just a move towards making inside hackery easier imo. Inside hackery with direct access to taxpayers funds, if need be, with a toothless Congress for nominal oversight. What could be sweeter.

LOL, yes, in your opinion. In reality (which your opinions aren't based in) nothing changes. What cost is it to taxpayers if their funds weren't used? Toothless people, toothless Congress.

Anyway, even with your opinion, isn't this what people have been wanting more of? Smaller government, more "market regulation"?
 
We need to socialize banks that are "too big to fail."
If they want to be in the government safety net, they need to be owned and operated by the government.
 
Originally posted by: LegendKiller
Originally posted by: GrGr
This is just a move towards making inside hackery easier imo. Inside hackery with direct access to taxpayers funds, if need be, with a toothless Congress for nominal oversight. What could be sweeter.

LOL, yes, in your opinion. In reality (which your opinions aren't based in) nothing changes. What cost is it to taxpayers if their funds weren't used? Toothless people, toothless Congress.

Anyway, even with your opinion, isn't this what people have been wanting more of? Smaller government, more "market regulation"?

JP Morgan was one of the effing creators of the Fed back in the day. Now JPMorgan gets cut sweetheart deals by the Fed, next it is to be 'regulated' by the Fed... I guess you are right, it is only business as usual. But I think some real unbiased regulation would be in order. Otherwise 'regulation' doesn't really have the same flavour to it. Again just my opinion of course...
 
Originally posted by: GrGr
Originally posted by: LegendKiller
Originally posted by: GrGr
This is just a move towards making inside hackery easier imo. Inside hackery with direct access to taxpayers funds, if need be, with a toothless Congress for nominal oversight. What could be sweeter.

LOL, yes, in your opinion. In reality (which your opinions aren't based in) nothing changes. What cost is it to taxpayers if their funds weren't used? Toothless people, toothless Congress.

Anyway, even with your opinion, isn't this what people have been wanting more of? Smaller government, more "market regulation"?

JP Morgan was one of the effing creators of the Fed back in the day. Now JPMorgan gets cut sweetheart deals by the Fed, next it is to be 'regulated' by the Fed... I guess you are right, it is only business as usual. But I think some real unbiased regulation would be in order. Otherwise 'regulation' doesn't really have the same flavour to it. Again just my opinion of course...

Pierpont *suggested* the Fed format, which was then heavily changed from their own blueprints by Congress, try again. What's also funny is that many claim that JPM and many others created the Fed to get off of the gold backed dollar and enslave us with debt. That's the exact opposite of their desires, they wanted a gold backed dollar for many reasons.

I'd suggest you pick up history books (and more than Jekyll Island) and read a bit.

What regulation is unbiased? I'd truly like to know because I'd love to see utopia also.
 
Originally posted by: smack Down
Originally posted by: soccerballtux
Originally posted by: smack Down
Originally posted by: Rainsford
I think "the markets" have proven over and over again that, left completely alone, incredibly bad things tend to happen. I don't think we need to resort to communism or anything, but surely a happy middle ground with SOME oversight wouldn't be a bad idea.

So we should only put the hammer on our flag and leave off the sickle for now. The Fed is the institution that created the problems in the first place and now you want to give it even more power. Especial after that BS deal last week giving JP Morgan 30 billion dollars.

Hi.

Are you stupid? Because if the deal didn't go through, BSC would have collapsed by Tuesday for sure, which would have had disastrous consequences for the rest of the economy. You would have been crying and screaming that Bush and the Fed should have done something.

I'm not a BSC share holder nor did I loan them any money. I could care less if a bunch of trust fund babies lost money.

That's b/c you're too ignorant to realize the ramifications of BSC failing nor realize that this mortgage/economic mess is b/c the FED doesn't have enough control over the market.
 
Originally posted by: Capt Caveman
Originally posted by: smack Down
Originally posted by: soccerballtux
Originally posted by: smack Down
Originally posted by: Rainsford
I think "the markets" have proven over and over again that, left completely alone, incredibly bad things tend to happen. I don't think we need to resort to communism or anything, but surely a happy middle ground with SOME oversight wouldn't be a bad idea.

So we should only put the hammer on our flag and leave off the sickle for now. The Fed is the institution that created the problems in the first place and now you want to give it even more power. Especial after that BS deal last week giving JP Morgan 30 billion dollars.

Hi.

Are you stupid? Because if the deal didn't go through, BSC would have collapsed by Tuesday for sure, which would have had disastrous consequences for the rest of the economy. You would have been crying and screaming that Bush and the Fed should have done something.

I'm not a BSC share holder nor did I loan them any money. I could care less if a bunch of trust fund babies lost money.

That's b/c you're too ignorant to realize the ramifications of BSC failing nor realize that this mortgage/economic mess is b/c the FED doesn't have enough control over the market.

You're right, centrally planned economies are fantastic and something we should strive for. Look how well it worked for the Soviet Union...
 
Originally posted by: LegendKiller
Originally posted by: BoberFett

You're right, centrally planned economies are fantastic and something we should strive for. Look how well it worked for the Soviet Union...

Nice hyperbole.

Thanks, I got a good trade in on my station wagon.
 
This is very depressing...the concepts of individualism, liberty, free markets, self responsibility, entrepreneurship are fleeing the United States.

I'm planning on moving my future 401k contributions to 75% international. All of my IRA contributions are going to be international. But if things keep heading the direction they're going, I'll have to cash it out, pay the 10% penalty, and move overseas.

While I don't want to invest emotionally, I've found the more I study market theory the more I realize that a portfolio should reflect the weight of economies worldwide if one wants to truly diversify. Furthermore, with the way the US government and it's bastard child seem content on inflating the Real-Estate bubble, economic progress is going to be stifled. We no longer have a free market to remove the incompetence of failed businesses. In fact, if you compare the returns of Europe or emerging markets to the US over the last 40 years, US stocks trail 1-1.5% on average.
 
Originally posted by: LegendKiller
Originally posted by: Vic
Originally posted by: Rainsford
I think "the markets" have proven over and over again that, left completely alone, incredibly bad things tend to happen. I don't think we need to resort to communism or anything, but surely a happy middle ground with SOME oversight wouldn't be a bad idea.

The Federal Reserve is not a government body. What has happened here is that our government has just given government powers to a private corporation.

A "private" corporation that sets it's greater policies from Congressional mandate, regulates through laws passed by Congress or regulations passed by the appropriate boards, is overseen by Congress, and has it's governors chosen by our government.

Please drop the "private bank" stuff. It's a quasi-government entity, regulated and overseen in most cases by the Government but kept at arms length to attempt to give it isolation from political hackery.

Congress cannot pass powers explicitly granted to it by the constitution onto someone else. It's not legal. No more legal than if they gave that power to you or me, or if a police officer handed you his gun and said "here, direct traffic for me." Second of all, congress is full of naivety. Very few politicians know anything about economics, thus your reassurance that they are capable of "overseeing" this institution and some of its newfangled powers is, once again, socialist idealism at its finest. But this is becoming a recurring theme in all of your posts. Last of all, the federal reserve has never been audited, and attempts from people like Ron Paul just to get some basic transparency into their meetings and decision making processes have been met with great resistance.

Just some small evidence of how stupid and useless some of these "mandates" are when they able to fudge with the semantics... Bernanke claims that his job is to promote price stability, not to deal with the value of the dollar (sort of his excuse for not having to answer questions about moral hazard and deliberate devaluation). But this is stupid, because prices see the most volatility from foolish creation of new money. Somehow, the definition of inflation has been changed by Keynesians to mean "rising prices" when the Austrians correctly see it as "rising prices as a result of increases in the money supply." I mean, according to Keynesians, you could say that computers are suffering from massive deflation and we need to do something about it quick! They fail to see the disparity between rising prices due to supply/demand and rising prices as a result of monetary phenomena (inflation), thus they fail to see one as normal and the other as more-or-less destructive because they jumble the two together under a simple, broad definition.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=yybFGh1sUcQ
 
Originally posted by: Legend
This is very depressing...the concepts of individualism, liberty, free markets, self responsibility, entrepreneurship are fleeing the United States.

I'm planning on moving my future 401k contributions to 75% international. All of my IRA contributions are going to be international. But if things keep heading the direction they're going, I'll have to cash it out, pay the 10% penalty, and move overseas.

While I don't want to invest emotionally, I've found the more I study market theory the more I realize that a portfolio should reflect the weight of economies worldwide if one wants to truly diversify. Furthermore, with the way the US government and it's bastard child seem content on inflating the Real-Estate bubble, economic progress is going to be stifled. We no longer have a free market to remove the incompetence of failed businesses. In fact, if you compare the returns of Europe or emerging markets to the US over the last 40 years, US stocks trail 1-1.5% on average.

LOL. We still have the most free markets in the world with the biggest base of entrepreneurs. Get a fricking grip.

Wow, you just realized that you should balance your portfolio to the worldwide portfolio? Welcome to 20 years ago. Nobody is trying to "inflate" the housing bubble, they are trying to deflate it in an orderly manner, not allow the whole financial market to crumble and entrench, like it did in 1929. Are not businesses failing? Has a bank not gone under? Has thousands of subprime lenders failed? Have more than 35,000 streeters been layed off?

40 years? Narrow your timeframe. Why the hell would it be surprising that developing countries grow at a faster pace than a developed country? If you're shocked by that then you need to just put your money into ETF or Index funds and just shut up.
 
Originally posted by: BansheeX
Congress cannot pass powers explicitly granted to it by the constitution onto someone else. It's not legal. No more legal than if they gave that power to you or me, or if a police officer handed you his gun and said "here, direct traffic for me." Second of all, congress is full of naivety. Very few politicians know anything about economics, thus your reassurance that they are capable of "overseeing" this institution and some of its newfangled powers is, once again, socialist idealism at its finest. But this is becoming a recurring theme in all of your posts. Last of all, the federal reserve has never been audited, and attempts from people like Ron Paul just to get some basic transparency into their meetings and decision making processes have been met with great resistance.

The courts have found that in many cases Congress can delegate its powers to other entities provided that Congress has sufficient oversight and control over that entity and that actions taken are answerable to Congress. The original bill creating the Fed has been amended more than 200 times. Congress constantly calls the Fed to testify. If regulations change they are enacted by Congress or are approved by Congress. If Fed policy disagrees with Congress, Congress has said so and several times the Fed has altered policy. Congress gets an annual audited financial statement every year, with an update, and testimony. Congress still has many powers outside the Fed to reign in the Fed, sometimes to disasterous results (See Carter Admin). Congress still has the ability to amend or even repeal the FRA.

As such, Congress has not yielded its power, which is the key premise in the delegation of power. The founding fathers feared that unchecked delegation, without oversight, would lead to problems. However, we can clearly see that there is significant oversight.

Just some small evidence of how stupid and useless some of these "mandates" are when they able to fudge with the semantics... Bernanke claims that his job is to promote price stability, not to deal with the value of the dollar (sort of his excuse for not having to answer questions about moral hazard and deliberate devaluation). But this is stupid, because prices see the most volatility from foolish creation of new money. Somehow, the definition of inflation has been changed by Keynesians to mean "rising prices" when the Austrians correctly see it as "rising prices as a result of increases in the money supply." I mean, according to Keynesians, you could say that computers are suffering from massive deflation and we need to do something about it quick! They fail to see the disparity between rising prices due to supply/demand and rising prices as a result of monetary phenomena (inflation), thus they fail to see one as normal and the other as more-or-less destructive because they jumble the two together under a simple, broad definition.

You're assuming two things.

a. That price inflation is worse than economic ruin if liquidity is not allowed into the system.

b. That prices will raise significantly due to the liquidity provided.


If we analyze historical actions, a. is completely false. It has been proven several times that when a country is in a liquidity crisis the best action to take is to ease the crisis, lest the banking system fail and the economy contract significantly. Any study of the Great Depression knows this. Had Congress, the Fed, the President, and bankers not advocated keeping a strong currency, precluding a liquidity injection, it is doubtful we would have even had a GD. Thus you utterly fail at proving that inflation is worse, since we know it isn't.

Second, the inflation introduced into the system by the added liquidity will only cause inflation provided that demand is going down and the market cannot absorb the currency. The market has shown, thus far, that it has sufficient capacity for the added liquidity and that inflationary pressures, while existent, are not overwhelmingly concerning. Jan and Feb inflation numbers are still relatively low.

Much of the inflation in the system is due to oil and food. Oil shouldn't be as high as it is and is mainly due to speculation in the market (8bn in oil contracts for hedging exists within a 240bn derivatives market, driving the price up about $20/bl). Food is being driven by ethanol, added input into fuel, and speculation in agriculture futures.

Those two exogenous circumstances, beyond the control of the Fed and monetary policy, cannot be blamed on the Fed or monetary policy.

This is where you people constantly fail. You fail to understand the market and claim to be intelligent. You're a fricking babe in the woods to people like me and I can disprove your youtube bullshit day in and day out.

 
Why is the stock market going up when new negative reports are coming out almost daily - ( today it is manufaction and construction ) ? Is it because of the "new" taxpayer funded safety net for investment bankers , Fedderal Reserve , and any business that has political pull ? BTW- Where can I sign up to get a bailout for my struggling 22 year man small business and vouchers to pay my family's bills ? I understand the importance of having liquidity in the system but it looks like the floodgates have opened .
 
Originally posted by: bamx2
Why is the stock market going up when new negative reports are coming out almost daily - ( today it is manufaction and construction ) ? Is it because of the "new" taxpayer funded safety net for investment bankers , Fedderal Reserve , and any business that has political pull ? BTW- Where can I sign up to get a bailout for my struggling 22 year man small business and vouchers to pay my family's bills ? I understand the importance of having liquidity in the system but it looks like the floodgates have opened .

Why'd we rally?

a. Lehman issued $4bn in capital, which was oversubscribed, meaning people *know* they will survive.

b. UBS took a $19bn write-down. That means it's not a US specific problem, which will lead to Trichet and King to add liquidity and drop rates. That'll result in a dollar recovery.

c. ISM data came in relatively positive, showing that manufacturers are getting a decent bump from increased exports (I guess that "weak" dollar sucks, eh?)
 
Hey this is fantastic! And I thought we couldn't do any better than the federal reserve. Lets nationalize the banking industry! YAY!
 
Originally posted by: LegendKiller
Originally posted by: Perry404
Hey this is fantastic! And I thought we couldn't do any better than the federal reserve. Lets nationalize the banking industry! YAY!

Got any better ideas sparky?

Abolish the fed and fess up to our debt. Stop spending money we don't have and pay off our debts. How about that little fella?
 
Originally posted by: Perry404
Originally posted by: LegendKiller
Originally posted by: Perry404
Hey this is fantastic! And I thought we couldn't do any better than the federal reserve. Lets nationalize the banking industry! YAY!

Got any better ideas sparky?

Abolish the fed and fess up to our debt. Stop spending money we don't have and pay off our debts. How about that little fella?

There's no reason to abolish the Fed, they didn't cause the situation and are trying to fix something they didn't break. Otherwise, I completely agree on debt.
 
Originally posted by: LegendKiller
Originally posted by: Perry404
Originally posted by: LegendKiller
Originally posted by: Perry404
Hey this is fantastic! And I thought we couldn't do any better than the federal reserve. Lets nationalize the banking industry! YAY!

Got any better ideas sparky?

Abolish the fed and fess up to our debt. Stop spending money we don't have and pay off our debts. How about that little fella?

There's no reason to abolish the Fed, they didn't cause the situation and are trying to fix something they didn't break. Otherwise, I completely agree on debt.

The fed is a useless middleman that does nothing but exacerbate inflation.
It is simply not necessary.
 
Originally posted by: LegendKiller
Originally posted by: Legend
This is very depressing...the concepts of individualism, liberty, free markets, self responsibility, entrepreneurship are fleeing the United States.

I'm planning on moving my future 401k contributions to 75% international. All of my IRA contributions are going to be international. But if things keep heading the direction they're going, I'll have to cash it out, pay the 10% penalty, and move overseas.

While I don't want to invest emotionally, I've found the more I study market theory the more I realize that a portfolio should reflect the weight of economies worldwide if one wants to truly diversify. Furthermore, with the way the US government and it's bastard child seem content on inflating the Real-Estate bubble, economic progress is going to be stifled. We no longer have a free market to remove the incompetence of failed businesses. In fact, if you compare the returns of Europe or emerging markets to the US over the last 40 years, US stocks trail 1-1.5% on average.

LOL. We still have the most free markets in the world with the biggest base of entrepreneurs. Get a fricking grip.

Wow, you just realized that you should balance your portfolio to the worldwide portfolio? Welcome to 20 years ago. Nobody is trying to "inflate" the housing bubble, they are trying to deflate it in an orderly manner, not allow the whole financial market to crumble and entrench, like it did in 1929. Are not businesses failing? Has a bank not gone under? Has thousands of subprime lenders failed? Have more than 35,000 streeters been layed off?

40 years? Narrow your timeframe. Why the hell would it be surprising that developing countries grow at a faster pace than a developed country? If you're shocked by that then you need to just put your money into ETF or Index funds and just shut up.

A free market would not have a central bank so liberally diluting the money supply in order to pay for government programs and attempt to stop bear markets. Maybe a better term would be pseudo-free markets with strong hues of corporate socialism. And I think our biggest disagreement is in regards to the Fed. You believe it is appropriately band aiding the economy for the greater good, I believe it is foolishly destroying the currency and creating bubbles with cuts that are too large.

If the Feds were doing what you described, they would made cuts smaller such that the general market fell slower and bottomed up higher than without any cuts. Not spike up 4% across the board.

I must not have been clear about diversification. The idea of diversification, and diversification employed with Markowitz's MPT are not new to me at all. It's just that all of the investing literature I've read has recommended something on the order of 30-50% international stock. However, in order to properly weight the US economy, one should have 75% international stock. That is what I meant.

Another reason to move international is because what the Feds and government are doing is reducing systematic risk. It's going to decrease returns on domestic stock in the long run.

I don't understand what the size of the country has to do with this. Markets adjust to growth stocks fairly quickly, and hundreds of years of financial data has shown that value stocks beat growth stocks in performance. I think you're falling for the growth trap, and ignoring the correlation between systematic risk and returns. You're probably also neglecting that the performance of emerging markets can be attributed to a rapidly falling dollar, thanks to the Feds.

All of my funds are index funds, as should have been implied with my MPT comment being used for my tax shelter accounts.
 
Originally posted by: Perry404
Originally posted by: LegendKiller
Originally posted by: Perry404
Originally posted by: LegendKiller
Originally posted by: Perry404
Hey this is fantastic! And I thought we couldn't do any better than the federal reserve. Lets nationalize the banking industry! YAY!

Got any better ideas sparky?

Abolish the fed and fess up to our debt. Stop spending money we don't have and pay off our debts. How about that little fella?

There's no reason to abolish the Fed, they didn't cause the situation and are trying to fix something they didn't break. Otherwise, I completely agree on debt.

The fed is a useless middleman that does nothing but exacerbate inflation.
It is simply not necessary.

lol, yeah, they are the "middleman" who is helping keep the economy liquid. Last numbers I checked, inflation wasn't that much.
 
Originally posted by: Legend
A free market would not have a central bank so liberally diluting the money supply in order to pay for government programs and attempt to stop bear markets. Maybe a better term would be pseudo-free markets with strong hues of corporate socialism. And I think our biggest disagreement is in regards to the Fed. You believe it is appropriately band aiding the economy for the greater good, I believe it is foolishly destroying the currency and creating bubbles with cuts that are too large.

Another reason to move international is because what the Feds and government are doing is reducing systematic risk. It's going to decrease returns on domestic stock in the long run.

I don't understand what the size of the country has to do with this. Markets adjust to growth stocks fairly quickly, and hundreds of years of financial data has shown that value stocks beat growth stocks in performance. I think you're falling for the growth trap, and ignoring the correlation between systematic risk and returns. You're probably also neglecting that the performance of emerging markets can be attributed to a rapidly falling dollar, thanks to the Feds.

All of my funds are index funds, as should have been implied with my MPT comment being used for my tax shelter accounts.

The Fed isn't diluting the money, they are using reserves to issue liquidity, which is wholly different from "dilution" without the reserve base. The government isn't diluting the currency either through bills, since they are issuing bonds backing. If they just "printed" money without issuing bonds, then that'd be a different story. HOwever, global capital is investing in our programs, spurring demand for our dollar. Granted, that demand has lessened due to the global interest rates being different than our own and economic outlooks changing, but that isn't that huge of a problem. Nice strawman though!

The government isn't reducing systematic risk. The system is still very risky. However, it's maintaining an orderly deleveraging by providing liquidity, which is essential in a credit blowup, as we learned 80 years ago.

I never talked about the size of the country, only the development of the country. I am not falling into any trap, since I understand that a developed country will have less systematic risk. Performance of developing markets aren't a function of the dollar, they were performing just fine 5 years ago when the dollar was much stronger. Yes, the falling dollar has added to performance. HOwever, now that the ISM data has showed American manufacturing is kicking up, as well as the American consumer is entrenching, you're going to see less growth internationally, despite a falling dollar.

Additionally, as other countries run into these financial problems (UBS, Deutsche, HSBC...etc) you're going to see the dollar raise in relation to those currencies.
 
http://stanleybing.blogs.fortu...02/please-mr-bernanke/

Please Mr. Bernanke?

Wednesday, April 2, 2008 at 10:41 am

Could you lower the interest rates some more? We?d like there to be more money in the system so we can borrow it. Also, the private capital and hedge fund guys could use some easy money, too. How else can they keep on generating wave upon wave of unnecessary, destructive acquisitions and divestitures?

Could you give all of us a break on our existing mortgages, too? Like, if we can?t pay our monthly nut, could you do it for us?

Could you make it easier for us all to get more mortgages after we default on the ones that those mean and stupid bankers gave us a few years back, when they were trying to make a quick buck by fooling us into taking big loans we eventually couldn?t repay?

Could you do something about the dollar, too? Those mean Japanese and Europeans have currencies that are getting more and more expensive against our own. This makes it very difficult to buy their goods and services at the kind of prices to which we had become accustomed. Like, many of us can?t afford two weeks in the south of France anymore. And England is no bargain, either. There must be something you can do.

Could you also see about the price of gasoline? I know you work very closely with Mr. Bush. His family has tremendous contacts in the oil-producing part of the world. Perhaps you could put a word in with him and he could speak to them about easing things up a bit. Pretty soon it?s going to cost nearly $100 to fill up my SUV. That hurts! After all, it only gets 8 miles per gallon. Maybe you could spare a couple of thousand for each of us, so we could turn our cars into hybrids! How about that idea?

Speaking of cars, people are now buying way fewer of them this year, partly due to the fact that car companies have been advertising less because they?re strapped for cash. It?s a vicious circle! They don?t advertise? they don?t sell cars? they make less money? they choke off their marketing and advertising budgets even more? you can see where it?s going. Perhaps if you provided $10,000 to any American who wanted to use it to buy a car? And subsidized the advertising budgets of auto makers at the same time. A key driver of the economy would immediately perk up and thank you bigtime!

Could you at the same time give us all a few thousand dollars to spend at Wal-Mart, J.C. Penney and other retailers who are right now having a tough time, too? Helping the big chains that motor our mall-based economy is just as important as helping the big banks you seem so concerned about. How about a $10 trillion bail out for retail?

Mr. Bernanke, you have all the money in the world and apparently the will to wrestle this darn situation of ours to the ground. These are just a few suggestions. I?m sure others could come up with more. You don?t even need to think out of the box. You own the box. Expand it! Dress it up! Make something happen!
 
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