Transgenders in sports

[nakedfrog]

Not to get too personal, but what made her say, "I don't think I am a boy."? My usual hold-up in a situation -- especially at that age -- is that we're all so used to the idea of children being fickle creatures. There's usually a lot of changing wants and desires, and I would have no idea how to separate the whim from the serious.

For me personally, it's just something I innately knew. There wasn't a specific thing associated with it. I didn't come from a particularly religious family, I learned about Jesus and prayer in daycare, and the only thing I ever prayed for was god to fix me.

 

[Moonbeam]

For me personally, it's just something I innately knew. There wasn't a specific thing associated with it. I didn't come from a particularly religious family, I learned about Jesus and prayer in daycare, and the only thing I ever prayed for was god to fix me.

Wrong prayer! God is a path by which one can discover one was never broken. God's forgiveness is all about helping you forgive yourself for making that mistake. Everybody feels broken because all broken people what others to feel the same. The result was that you grew up in a world of darkness from which there was really on escape. The Good News of the Bible was really there to tell you of a secret escape. To die to the ego is to die self pity and open the door to love.

 

[Moonbeam]

Were I a person born male as I was and felt a need for a gender change, I would never compete against females is sport. That would feel morally wrong to me because I believe that evolution advantages males on average in physical strength. In order to change that moral perspective it would require a different and I believe non existent new theory of evolution.

Furthermore, I am not really into competition. I believe the desire to compete and win, with all the emotional high involved, is just a reflection and fuel for the unconscious feeling that I'm actually inferior. What else would the pay off be? Once I was nothing but now I'm a winner. I won when I lost everything, (that can be lost), but not what can't be lost. What could that be?

 

[nakedfrog]

Wrong prayer! God is a path by which one can discover one was never broken. God's forgiveness is all about helping you forgive yourself for making that mistake. Everybody feels broken because all broken people what others to feel the same. The result was that you grew up in a world of darkness from which there was really on escape. The Good News of the Bible was really there to tell you of a secret escape. To die to the ego is to die self pity and open the door to love.

LOL, yeah, tell that to a six year old kid. Christian mythology does not appeal to me for many reasons, but thanks anyway! Turns out the escape from that darkness is provided by science and a tolerant society.

 

[sandorski]

Were I a person born male as I was and felt a need for a gender change, I would never compete against females is sport. That would feel morally wrong to me because I believe that evolution advantages males on average in physical strength. In order to change that moral perspective it would require a different and I believe non existent new theory of evolution.

Furthermore, I am not really into competition. I believe the desire to compete and win, with all the emotional high involved, is just a reflection and fuel for the unconscious feeling that I'm actually inferior. What else would the pay off be? Once I was nothing but now I'm a winner. I won when I lost everything, (that can be lost), but not what can't be lost. What could that be?

Any advantage gets nullified after a year of HRT and are non-existant if Puberty Blockers are/were used.

 

[Indus]

Not to get too personal, but what made her say, "I don't think I am a boy."? My usual hold-up in a situation -- especially at that age -- is that we're all so used to the idea of children being fickle creatures. There's usually a lot of changing wants and desires, and I would have no idea how to separate the whim from the serious.

She says she always knew and felt like a girl.

Her dad loved boxing and would try to teach her boxing like any father would his kid but she'd rather be into seeing what her elder real sister was doing and enjoying stuff with her as a girl.

Felt super weird using boys bathroom at school and school was honestly torture for her from all the boys, but somehow she's still friends with some of the girls of her high school who "accepted" her for what she is.

 

[Indus]

All you need for a passport is a "letter of appropriate treatment" from a doctor affirming that the patient has had appropriate treatment. I was waiting to get mine (which I have) before I re-applied for a passport, but now that they're going to allow for a non-binary option next year, trying to decide whether to wait for that.

Oooh interesting. Never knew that.

Thank you, will pass the word to her.

 

[MichaelMay]

I am going to chime in and call bullshit! I was on the Wyoming state swim team when I was in middle school and High school. I competed all over the state against all ranges of ability. My coach wasn't happy when I moved away because I was one of the teams top swimmers for my age group. I won a lot, and I lost a lot. There where girls on my team, who could beat me hands down. Now I know that doesn't mean much to you. But here is the part that disproves your theory: The best swimmer on our team, who took home many state titles, had only 1 lung. he also could hold his breath longer than anyone on the team. If what you say is true, because he was born with that disadvantage, it was impossible for him to do any of that. Sports when it comes to the body, is more about conditioning ones body and mind, than anything else.

Now, to everyone: If allowing and not allowing transgendered people is such a huge deal, than why do we allow black people and white people to compete with each other as blacks tend to have a greater athletic ability in some sports? By no means am I making this a racial discussion, as that's not why I bring it up. But genetics play a huge roll in athletic ability, are we going to start separating people based on genetics as well because some genetics have an advantage? Are people going to start blaming their losses due to their lack of conditioning because of genetics? Most sports are designed to match people at the same level, that won't change if trans athletes enter the picture, it will just take a little time for the averages to work themselves out where the matches are balanced appropriately. At least that is how I look at it.

Yeah, the thing is, your personal experience on this matter doesn't amount to jack shit. It's unimportant, it's useless and completely so.

If testosterone is not a big deal then allow it, the only limit will be how much someone dares to take. Also there is the issue of IGF-1 which is higher in males so add that to the list of allowed supplements and surely no one has a problem with more T3 as it is absolutely needed in this mix of heightened hormones.

I'm a 7'1 powerbuilder, allow me all of that and I'll lift a ton within a month.

Thing is, biochemistry is not hard and understanding the differences in how different hormones affect different things can be done within one hour of reading wikis that are well sourced, I'm a biochemist and you are WRONG.

You want to match people at the same level, trans league is the only option for trans women. I'm sorry but the are NOT females, I'll call them women and I'll refer to them as women all day long but denying reality is where I stop.

 

[MichaelMay]

Disagree with that a lot since sometimes parents and society are to blame.

In my wife's case.. she knew at age 6 she was female. She argued with her parents.. the mom accepted but the dad didn't.. would hit her.. burn her with hot stake, tried running her over with his truck, grounding her, and finally at 16 kicking her out of the house.

She's been called names, punched, robbed, spit on and worse than that. Despite all she went through in survival mode before she met me.. its a miracle she didn't end up with an STD or worse.. but she's adamant on one thing.. she is female and was born in the wrong body.

She used hormones intermittently.. whenever she could afford them so how do we take people like that into account?

And her passport still says male.. I didn't want the headache of having to change it during the Trump years but maybe we can now.. we already have the documents and the procedures done that she is female in NY state.

I'm going to make this very short and sweet for you, I'm a biochemist and you are wrong.

I will not have any part of any discussion on whether a 6 year old is mature enough to determine her sex or sexuality, mainly because we don't enter into that until we are much older and this goes against the entire idea of how biological sexuality in humans works.

I am distraught by what they did to her, I want them punished in a way ... I want to torture them to death. I can't fix that for her, I can't help either of you with that but you seem like a very empathetic man who takes care of her, who empathizes with her and she has you.

This changes nothing about the original subject, emotions are running wild and I just want to fucking fight someone... But it doesn't change the facts of anything and this isn't about some little thing, this is about something that kids are not ready for, at all.

So no, it doesn't change my mind. I can't fix evil people but I also cannot say that a 6 year old is mature enough to have a sex change that lasts for life.

 

[nakedfrog]

I'm going to make this very short and sweet for you, I'm a biochemist and you are wrong.

I will not have any part of any discussion on whether a 6 year old is mature enough to determine her sex or sexuality, mainly because we don't enter into that until we are much older and this goes against the entire idea of how biological sexuality in humans works.

Um, yo, I'm one of these people, I sure the fucking hell did know, and fuck you for saying I didn't. It's great having you just handwave away all the years of mental strife because it's just "not a thing".

I am distraught by what they did to her, I want them punished in a way ... I want to torture them to death. I can't fix that for her, I can't help either of you with that but you seem like a very empathetic man who takes care of her, who empathizes with her and she has you.

This changes nothing about the original subject, emotions are running wild and I just want to fucking fight someone... But it doesn't change the facts of anything and this isn't about some little thing, this is about something that kids are not ready for, at all.

So no, it doesn't change my mind. I can't fix evil people but I also cannot say that a 6 year old is mature enough to have a sex change that lasts for life.

NOBODY is arguing for six year olds to even get on MEDICATION, let alone have SURGERY. Holy shit. HRT wouldn't even make sense at that age, nor would puberty blockers.

 

[s0me0nesmind1]

You need an undecided/maybe/maybe not in the poll.

There is no one fits all here, but I'm not sure how to qualify who should or shouldn't.

Once women started competing in male sports, the whole dividing wall crumbled. Some female runners can leave males in their dust for example. And you don't want to tangle with a beach volleyballer.

I've seen quite a few M to F that would easily fit on the Babes thread and may or may not have the strength and endurance of female athletes.

No one goes through the process with the intention of having an athletic advantage.

Are you high or just incredibly stupid ? Where are you seeing women leave men in the dust?

 

[s0me0nesmind1]

The answer is quite simple though: have male sports, female sports, and trans sports. Have at it.

 

[Moonbeam]

LOL, yeah, tell that to a six year old kid. Christian mythology does not appeal to me for many reasons, but thanks anyway! Turns out the escape from that darkness is provided by science and a tolerant society.

That's relief, not escape and Christianity is just one name and one methodology leading to truth. And at six had you not bought into the lie you would have suffered crushing and irresistible pressures to conform. You weren't broke, you were broken. It was hopeless then, it no longer is.

 

[nakedfrog]

That's relief, not escape and Christianity is just one name and one methodology leading to truth. And at six had you not bought into the lie you would have suffered crushing and irresistible pressures to conform. You weren't broke, you were broken. It was hopeless then, it no longer is.

I paraphrased for simplicity, I don't really want to get into the specifics of the conversation
I'm good now, and getting better all the time.

 

[s0me0nesmind1]

Any advantage gets nullified after a year of HRT and are non-existant if Puberty Blockers are/were used.

Lol no.

That is absolutely 100% false, regardless of what retarded indoctrination you read.

 

[s0me0nesmind1]

It's not just muscle mass, it's bone density, muscle attachments and all other things that come with being a biological male. There is no way around it at all no matter what you try.

I'd say it's an argument for starting hormone blockers before puberty but then again ~40% of those who did where it has been possible to do so say they regret their decision.

There is no perfect way to settle this so we have to compromise which trans women are not prepared to do at all and so we are left with just going by "if you are not good enough at the sport you may compete in it" which is the current excuse used to allow trans women into women's sports. I think it's a terrible idea in and of itself and absolutely derogatory towards trans women in a way a third category wouldn't be.

Another way would be just making it male and female sports since then there is no ambiguity but I doubt trans women would be OK with that and trans men would be disqualified from competing in women's sports if their test levels are too high (biological females have been banned for that very reason before).

Every single point you are making in your multiple points will be glossed over, ignored, and people will incompetently encourage this stupidity of ignoring science.

 

[Moonbeam]

Any advantage gets nullified after a year of HRT and are non-existant if Puberty Blockers are/were used.

Perhaps and quite possible so but that would not undo how I feel. I could be told I no longer have any genetic advantage but that wouldn't make me feel it is so and winning would further stoke such doubt.

I have no answer for anyone but myself and I only answered for me as if it were.

 

[Moonbeam]

I paraphrased for simplicity, I don't really want to get into the specifics of the conversation
I'm good now, and getting better all the time.

Great. If you ever feel stuck, consider, there may not be and getting better or worse. Maybe you have always been perfect.

 

[SKORPI0]

Why not just make some sports events that both "male" and "female" can compete in (no physical advantage) and whoever wins get the medal regardless of their sex identity.
Is that a viable compromise in the real world?

 

[pauldun170]

She says she always knew and felt like a girl.

Her dad loved boxing and would try to teach her boxing like any father would his kid but she'd rather be into seeing what her elder real sister was doing and enjoying stuff with her as a girl.

That's kinda implying that girls don't like boxing. I know for a fact that many girls love boxing.
Matter of fact a lot of girls I knew growing up got boxing lessons from their dad because "Dads" want their children to be able to defend themselves.

Sounds like it had nothing to do with boxing and everything to do with her relationship with her dad if she walked away from fatherly boxing lessons.
To be honest, now that your wife is an adult...she should try boxing.
(FYI: Your wife will start punching you the day she comes home from her first class)

If you ever decide to be parent, you are should to show your child how to throw a punch (while also teaching them how to avoid the fight all together).
It's a nice little bonding moment.
It's in the manual they give out. You'll see

 

[pauldun170]

Yeah, the thing is, your personal experience on this matter doesn't amount to jack shit. It's unimportant, it's useless and completely so.

If testosterone is not a big deal then allow it, the only limit will be how much someone dares to take. Also there is the issue of IGF-1 which is higher in males so add that to the list of allowed supplements and surely no one has a problem with more T3 as it is absolutely needed in this mix of heightened hormones.

I'm a 7'1 powerbuilder, allow me all of that and I'll lift a ton within a month.

Thing is, biochemistry is not hard and understanding the differences in how different hormones affect different things can be done within one hour of reading wikis that are well sourced, I'm a biochemist and you are WRONG.

You want to match people at the same level, trans league is the only option for trans women. I'm sorry but the are NOT females, I'll call them women and I'll refer to them as women all day long but denying reality is where I stop.

Bitch please
I'm a 8.0 Powerbuilder

 

[Leeea]

I'd say it's an argument for starting hormone blockers before puberty but then again ~40% of those who did where it has been possible to do so say they regret their decision.

I do not believe you. You have also refused to provide link or proof.

https://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/949842

Also, this is the absolute hardest part of this discussion. In a perfect world everyone would know exactly what they wanted for the rest of their life from before puberty but in reality, we don't let prepubescent kids decide anything about their lives by law, except this, in some cases.

WTF are you talking about? Nobody is making permanent choices here.

The study it refers to does this, I'll provide a direct link but I'm not sure if you can get more than the abstract from there.

Those items are irrelevant since most have no real choice once the deed is done and they have gone through with the hormone blockers, you can't just go back.

not only do your numbers not add up Michael May, nether do your facts:
https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/puberty-blockers#are-they-reversible

The effects of puberty blockers are physically reversible.

Your facts are just flat out wrong. The 40% number your pulling appears to be bullshit.


also:
https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases...horia/in-depth/pubertal-blockers/art-20459075

Are the changes permanent?

Use of GnRH analogues doesn't cause permanent changes in an adolescent's body. Instead, it pauses puberty, providing time to determine if a child's gender identity is long lasting. It also gives children and their families time to think about or plan for the psychological, medical, developmental, social and legal issues ahead.


If an adolescent child stops taking GnRH analogues, puberty will resume.

I provided two good sources. So far all you have done is provide one source that directly contradicted your claims.

 

[Leeea]

Yeah, the thing is, your personal experience on this matter doesn't amount to jack shit. It's unimportant, it's useless and completely so.

If testosterone is not a big deal then allow it, the only limit will be how much someone dares to take. Also there is the issue of IGF-1 which is higher in males so add that to the list of allowed supplements and surely no one has a problem with more T3 as it is absolutely needed in this mix of heightened hormones.

I'm a 7'1 powerbuilder, allow me all of that and I'll lift a ton within a month.

Thing is, biochemistry is not hard and understanding the differences in how different hormones affect different things can be done within one hour of reading wikis that are well sourced, I'm a biochemist and you are WRONG.

You want to match people at the same level, trans league is the only option for trans women. I'm sorry but the are NOT females, I'll call them women and I'll refer to them as women all day long but denying reality is where I stop.

Now your claiming to be a biochemist?

When combined with the misleading and easily disproven information you have already posted, it is only reasonable to conclude you are posting here with malicious intent.

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I'm sorry but the are NOT females, I'll call them women and I'll refer to them as women all day long but denying reality is where I stop.

and after all the lies, the hatred and bigotry comes out.

You hate trans people, and that is all there is to it. Everything else you posted was smoke and mirrors for you to try and justify your hate.

 

[Leeea]

Well, yeah, you can't undelay puberty once you've already delayed it.
I suspect that 40% may only come from people who ultimately don't transition, since overall transition regret is 1% or less in adults, and even some of regret that is due to social pressure. If the majority of youths that go on puberty blockers do go on to transition, how could 40% of them regret being on puberty blockers? Doesn't seem to make sense.

Pick option B:
MichaelMay is a lying piece of shit.

 

[MichaelMay]

Now your claiming to be a biochemist?

When combined with the misleading and easily disproven information you have already posted, it is only reasonable to conclude you are posting here with malicious intent.

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and after all the lies, the hatred and bigotry comes out.

You hate trans people, and that is all there is to it. Everything else you posted was smoke and mirrors for you to try and justify your hate.

No, and I loathe this form of attack. You are trying to turn me into an enemy I am not.

Why? Because you think that trans women are females which they are most certainly not, nor are they claiming to be females. A female is a biological concept and try as you may you cannot change that.

You are just looking for a means to attack me and I find it pathetic. I'll stand by your side working, arguing and voting for transgender rights but I draw the line at redefining biology.

This is me being nice, keep it up and I'll tell you how I really feel about people like you.