Transgenders in sports

[mikeymikec]

On any level?

Too broad a question IMO. Everyday sports in primary school vs. say the highest levels of professional sport? That's way over-generalising.

I couldn't give a flying fuck about school sports and no-one should. Let kids be kids. Furthermore I highly doubt that someone is going to leave themselves wide open to non-stop ridicule by pretending to be trans for the sake of a theoretical advantage in a sport that they're probably nowhere near good enough to ever take up seriously. Plus I somewhat doubt that say any drug testing goes on to 'ensure the integrity' of those sports except maybe for kids looking to get scholarships, so a cis female or male could be cheating as could someone pretending to be trans.

I say 'theoretical advantage' because one can blather on about how testosterone can give males an advantage, but I bet even when I was a reasonably decent (and competing) swimmer as a kid, I bet there were plenty of female swimmers my age that could have trounced my performance. Just like as a cis adult male I can put on more muscle / more easily than a cis adult female, but it's what you do with it that matters.

The highest levels of professional sports? That's an entirely different kettle of fish. You're then talking about the most serious competitors in peak condition. I'd let the scientists provide the basis for such decisions.

 

[nakedfrog]

"Transgenders" is not the preferred nomenclature, "transgender people" or "trans people" is better.
It's a complicated issue, one most people opining on don't really understand the process well enough to have an informed opinion on. With the number of shits I give about sports, it's hard for me to even care. I think we place way, way, way too much emphasis and importance on games that are ostensibly played "for fun".

 

[MichaelMay]

No, trans women in sports shouldn't be a thing unless hormone blockers were applied before puberty. I'm sorry but that hormones affect biological factors during puberty isn't up for discussion and therefore there can never be an even playing field.

 

[Sunburn74]

We can measure total body muscle mass. You can just say to compete with in women's sports your muscle mass cannot exceed the 90th percentile of female athletes. Using both weight classes and muscle mass limitations you'd level the playing field considerably.

 

[cytg111]

Too broad a question IMO. Everyday sports in primary school vs. say the highest levels of professional sport? That's way over-generalising.

I couldn't give a flying fuck about school sports and no-one should. Let kids be kids. Furthermore I highly doubt that someone is going to leave themselves wide open to non-stop ridicule by pretending to be trans for the sake of a theoretical advantage in a sport that they're probably nowhere near good enough to ever take up seriously. Plus I somewhat doubt that say any drug testing goes on to 'ensure the integrity' of those sports except maybe for kids looking to get scholarships, so a cis female or male could be cheating as could someone pretending to be trans.

I say 'theoretical advantage' because one can blather on about how testosterone can give males an advantage, but I bet even when I was a reasonably decent (and competing) swimmer as a kid, I bet there were plenty of female swimmers my age that could have trounced my performance. Just like as a cis adult male I can put on more muscle / more easily than a cis adult female, but it's what you do with it that matters.

The highest levels of professional sports? That's an entirely different kettle of fish. You're then talking about the most serious competitors in peak condition. I'd let the scientists provide the basis for such decisions.

This sounds like a good cut.

 

[MichaelMay]

We can measure total body muscle mass. You can just say to compete with in women's sports your muscle mass cannot exceed the 90th percentile of female athletes. Using both weight classes and muscle mass limitations you'd level the playing field considerably.

It's not just muscle mass, it's bone density, muscle attachments and all other things that come with being a biological male. There is no way around it at all no matter what you try.

I'd say it's an argument for starting hormone blockers before puberty but then again ~40% of those who did where it has been possible to do so say they regret their decision.

There is no perfect way to settle this so we have to compromise which trans women are not prepared to do at all and so we are left with just going by "if you are not good enough at the sport you may compete in it" which is the current excuse used to allow trans women into women's sports. I think it's a terrible idea in and of itself and absolutely derogatory towards trans women in a way a third category wouldn't be.

Another way would be just making it male and female sports since then there is no ambiguity but I doubt trans women would be OK with that and trans men would be disqualified from competing in women's sports if their test levels are too high (biological females have been banned for that very reason before).

 

[MichaelMay]

Too broad a question IMO. Everyday sports in primary school vs. say the highest levels of professional sport? That's way over-generalising.

I couldn't give a flying fuck about school sports and no-one should. Let kids be kids. Furthermore I highly doubt that someone is going to leave themselves wide open to non-stop ridicule by pretending to be trans for the sake of a theoretical advantage in a sport that they're probably nowhere near good enough to ever take up seriously. Plus I somewhat doubt that say any drug testing goes on to 'ensure the integrity' of those sports except maybe for kids looking to get scholarships, so a cis female or male could be cheating as could someone pretending to be trans.

I say 'theoretical advantage' because one can blather on about how testosterone can give males an advantage, but I bet even when I was a reasonably decent (and competing) swimmer as a kid, I bet there were plenty of female swimmers my age that could have trounced my performance. Just like as a cis adult male I can put on more muscle / more easily than a cis adult female, but it's what you do with it that matters.

The highest levels of professional sports? That's an entirely different kettle of fish. You're then talking about the most serious competitors in peak condition. I'd let the scientists provide the basis for such decisions.

You're not American where how you perform in school sports can change your entire life with scholarships though. Imagine if someone twice your size would get the scholarship in place of you and now you're fucked.

It's not a "theoretical advantage" in the least, it is a very, very, very, very real advantage and this isn't up for discussion at all. What you are basically saying here is that there is no reason to separate females and males when it comes to sports because you were a lousy swimmer and yet look at reality. There wouldn't be a woman being in the top ten of anything when it comes to sports, not even fucking GOLF.

 

[nakedfrog]

It's not just muscle mass, it's bone density, muscle attachments and all other things that come with being a biological male. There is no way around it at all no matter what you try.

I'd say it's an argument for starting hormone blockers before puberty but then again ~40% of those who did where it has been possible to do so say they regret their decision.

There is no perfect way to settle this so we have to compromise which trans women are not prepared to do at all and so we are left with just going by "if you are not good enough at the sport you may compete in it" which is the current excuse used to allow trans women into women's sports. I think it's a terrible idea in and of itself and absolutely derogatory towards trans women in a way a third category wouldn't be.

Another way would be just making it male and female sports since then there is no ambiguity but I doubt trans women would be OK with that and trans men would be disqualified from competing in women's sports if their test levels are too high (biological females have been banned for that very reason before).

40%? I'm gonna need a source on that.

 

[MichaelMay]

40%? I'm gonna need a source on that.

Transgender Teens: Is the Tide Starting to Turn?

Who is 'Keira Bell'? This brave young woman took on the medical establishment in the UK over her treatment for gender dysphoria and won. The ruling could have global ramifications.

www.medscape.com

Also, this is the absolute hardest part of this discussion. In a perfect world everyone would know exactly what they wanted for the rest of their life from before puberty but in reality, we don't let prepubescent kids decide anything about their lives by law, except this, in some cases.

 

[MtnMan]

I have no problem in how people deal with their gender identity issues.

However, it is grossly unfair, particularly in women's sports, for a person born male to compete against women. Humans born male are on average, larger and stronger than women, 26lbs (10kg) of skeletal muscle, 40% more upper-body strength and 33% more lower body strength.

 

[Brainonska511]

I have no problem in how people deal with their gender identity issues.

However, it is grossly unfair, particularly in women's sports, for a person born male to compete against women. Humans born male are on average, larger and stronger than women, 26lbs (10kg) of skeletal muscle, 40% more upper-body strength and 33% more lower body strength.

Great, but most of these laws are targeting children's sports, because conservatives have a new boogie person to pick on. Boys != Men, girls != Women.

 

[nakedfrog]

Transgender Teens: Is the Tide Starting to Turn?

Who is 'Keira Bell'? This brave young woman took on the medical establishment in the UK over her treatment for gender dysphoria and won. The ruling could have global ramifications.

www.medscape.com

Hm. I found this in there, where did you see the ~40% number? It's possible I missed it, feel free to point it out if so.

Hannema, too, says that in her clinic the majority of youth taking puberty blockers do progress to cross-sex hormones, although they report a slightly lower percentage than did UK GIDS. "In a recent study [10], we reported that 87% of adolescents who had started puberty suppression subsequently started gender-affirming hormone treatment," she told Medscape. A total of 6% discontinued puberty blockers and 3.5% no longer wished to have gender-affirming treatment. The remainder were still on puberty blockers at last follow-up.

 

[MichaelMay]

Great, but most of these laws are targeting children's sports, because conservatives have a new boogie person to pick on. Boys != Men, girls != Women.

Females = females and males = males

It's not really a problem with kids sports though, just do what every other nation does and let them play together.

 

[MichaelMay]

Hm. I found this in there, where did you see the ~40% number? It's possible I missed it, feel free to point it out if so.

The study it refers to does this, I'll provide a direct link but I'm not sure if you can get more than the abstract from there.

Those items are irrelevant since most have no real choice once the deed is done and they have gone through with the hormone blockers, you can't just go back.

 

[pauldun170]

because I can

 

[mikeymikec]

You're not American where how you perform in school sports can change your entire life with scholarships though. Imagine if someone twice your size would get the scholarship in place of you and now you're fucked.

Such is life, trans or no trans.

It's not a "theoretical advantage" in the least, it is a very, very, very, very real advantage and this isn't up for discussion at all. What you are basically saying here is that there is no reason to separate females and males when it comes to sports because you were a lousy swimmer and yet look at reality. There wouldn't be a woman being in the top ten of anything when it comes to sports, not even fucking GOLF.

1: If you don't think this is up for discussion then you shouldn't be here. This is a discussion forum.
2: I didn't "basically" say that at all (I even said a near opposite to that!), either provide counter-points to what I wrote or don't bother responding to me at all.
3: There's no need to throw utterly clueless insults, it doesn't aid your argument in the slightest.

 

[nakedfrog]

The study it refers to does this, I'll provide a direct link but I'm not sure if you can get more than the abstract from there.

Those items are irrelevant since most have no real choice once the deed is done and they have gone through with the hormone blockers, you can't just go back.

Well, yeah, you can't undelay puberty once you've already delayed it.
I suspect that 40% may only come from people who ultimately don't transition, since overall transition regret is 1% or less in adults, and even some of regret that is due to social pressure. If the majority of youths that go on puberty blockers do go on to transition, how could 40% of them regret being on puberty blockers? Doesn't seem to make sense.

 

[Indus]

No, trans women in sports shouldn't be a thing unless hormone blockers were applied before puberty. I'm sorry but that hormones affect biological factors during puberty isn't up for discussion and therefore there can never be an even playing field.

Disagree with that a lot since sometimes parents and society are to blame.

In my wife's case.. she knew at age 6 she was female. She argued with her parents.. the mom accepted but the dad didn't.. would hit her.. burn her with hot stake, tried running her over with his truck, grounding her, and finally at 16 kicking her out of the house.

She's been called names, punched, robbed, spit on and worse than that. Despite all she went through in survival mode before she met me.. its a miracle she didn't end up with an STD or worse.. but she's adamant on one thing.. she is female and was born in the wrong body.

She used hormones intermittently.. whenever she could afford them so how do we take people like that into account?

And her passport still says male.. I didn't want the headache of having to change it during the Trump years but maybe we can now.. we already have the documents and the procedures done that she is female in NY state.

 

[Leeea]

And her passport still says male.. I didn't want the headache of having to change it during the Trump years but maybe we can now.. we already have the documents and the procedures done that she is female in NY state.

Get the ball rolling now:

U.S. Passports

How to apply for or renew your U.S. passport if you live in United States

travel.state.gov

The passport is great for a lot of things, as it can be used as a sole source of id for many things including employment i9 checks and voting.


Including changing gender with the SSA, as it can be used as sole source for that:

How do I change the sex identification on my Social Security record? · FAQ | SSA

Which is very important to be able to pass w4 check that is routinely done as part of employment.

In short the passport is the easy way to near universal recognition. Just need to do it when the barbarians are not in charge. Hillary was the one who first made this loop hole, God bless her soul.

The passport can also be leveraged into the federal id that normally requires a birth certificate if I remember right.

The best thing though is it is a sole source of id for nearly everything so the Dr letters and all that cease to be needed. Passport is just taken with no questions asked.

 

[pauldun170]

Disagree with that a lot since sometimes parents and society are to blame.

In my wife's case.. she knew at age 6 she was female. She argued with her parents.. the mom accepted but the dad didn't.. would hit her.. burn her with hot stake, tried running her over with his truck, grounding her, and finally at 16 kicking her out of the house.

She's been called names, punched, robbed, spit on and worse than that. Despite all she went through in survival mode before she met me.. its a miracle she didn't end up with an STD or worse.. but she's adamant on one thing.. she is female and was born in the wrong body.

She used hormones intermittently.. whenever she could afford them so how do we take people like that into account?

And her passport still says male.. I didn't want the headache of having to change it during the Trump years but maybe we can now.. we already have the documents and the procedures done that she is female in NY state.

Many on this forum fear that your adult wife is going to sneak into middle school and join girls soccer.


I prefer a straight forward approach.
I don't care sex you are or gender or whatever.

"Can you run a 5 minute mile?"
"Can you squat X lbs?"
"Can you throw X amount of yards and hit the spot marked off?"
"Can you do X amount of pushups in 60 seconds"
"Can you swim x laps in the pool in under X amount of time"
If it's for Lacrosse
"You have to do all of the above but you have to wear a helmet (then watch everyone flip out about the idea of girls wearing lacrosse helmets)"

Judge people on what they can do and what comes out of their mouth.
Not the shape of their wibblies

 

[nakedfrog]

Disagree with that a lot since sometimes parents and society are to blame.

In my wife's case.. she knew at age 6 she was female. She argued with her parents.. the mom accepted but the dad didn't.. would hit her.. burn her with hot stake, tried running her over with his truck, grounding her, and finally at 16 kicking her out of the house.

She's been called names, punched, robbed, spit on and worse than that. Despite all she went through in survival mode before she met me.. its a miracle she didn't end up with an STD or worse.. but she's adamant on one thing.. she is female and was born in the wrong body.

She used hormones intermittently.. whenever she could afford them so how do we take people like that into account?

And her passport still says male.. I didn't want the headache of having to change it during the Trump years but maybe we can now.. we already have the documents and the procedures done that she is female in NY state.

All you need for a passport is a "letter of appropriate treatment" from a doctor affirming that the patient has had appropriate treatment. I was waiting to get mine (which I have) before I re-applied for a passport, but now that they're going to allow for a non-binary option next year, trying to decide whether to wait for that.

 

[NWRMidnight]

You're not American where how you perform in school sports can change your entire life with scholarships though. Imagine if someone twice your size would get the scholarship in place of you and now you're fucked.

It's not a "theoretical advantage" in the least, it is a very, very, very, very real advantage and this isn't up for discussion at all. What you are basically saying here is that there is no reason to separate females and males when it comes to sports because you were a lousy swimmer and yet look at reality. There wouldn't be a woman being in the top ten of anything when it comes to sports, not even fucking GOLF.

I am going to chime in and call bullshit! I was on the Wyoming state swim team when I was in middle school and High school. I competed all over the state against all ranges of ability. My coach wasn't happy when I moved away because I was one of the teams top swimmers for my age group. I won a lot, and I lost a lot. There where girls on my team, who could beat me hands down. Now I know that doesn't mean much to you. But here is the part that disproves your theory: The best swimmer on our team, who took home many state titles, had only 1 lung. he also could hold his breath longer than anyone on the team. If what you say is true, because he was born with that disadvantage, it was impossible for him to do any of that. Sports when it comes to the body, is more about conditioning ones body and mind, than anything else.

Now, to everyone: If allowing and not allowing transgendered people is such a huge deal, than why do we allow black people and white people to compete with each other as blacks tend to have a greater athletic ability in some sports? By no means am I making this a racial discussion, as that's not why I bring it up. But genetics play a huge roll in athletic ability, are we going to start separating people based on genetics as well because some genetics have an advantage? Are people going to start blaming their losses due to their lack of conditioning because of genetics? Most sports are designed to match people at the same level, that won't change if trans athletes enter the picture, it will just take a little time for the averages to work themselves out where the matches are balanced appropriately. At least that is how I look at it.

 

[Leeea]

All you need for a passport is a "letter of appropriate treatment" from a doctor affirming that the patient has had appropriate treatment. I was waiting to get mine (which I have) before I re-applied for a passport, but now that they're going to allow for a non-binary option next year, trying to decide whether to wait for that.

Do not wait, do it while you can.

They can always steal the ball back.

 

[sandorski]

Yes

 

[Aikouka]

I wonder if good faith discussions on this are doomed to go nowhere just like with what happened with transgendered bathroom laws. With that, we saw hyperbole of predators abusing the rules for nefarious deeds, and I wouldn't be surprised if someone suggested that we'd start seeing men put on wigs just to compete in women's sports. Frankly, I think a good bit of this is fueled by an individual's biases (i.e. how "icky" it makes them feel).

In my wife's case.. she knew at age 6 she was female. She argued with her parents.. the mom accepted but the dad didn't.. would hit her.. burn her with hot stake, tried running her over with his truck, grounding her, and finally at 16 kicking her out of the house.

Not to get too personal, but what made her say, "I don't think I am a boy."? My usual hold-up in a situation -- especially at that age -- is that we're all so used to the idea of children being fickle creatures. There's usually a lot of changing wants and desires, and I would have no idea how to separate the whim from the serious.