Towns getting IED-RESISTANT APC's and MRAPs (tanks!)

[PhoKingGuy]

cop = I was too pussy to go career military so im going to act the same while living a cushy life back home eating donughts and bullying the same kids I did in high school because they did something useful with their lives and I didnt.

You all are surprised the pig patrol wants more slop?

 

[Darwin333]

Even if you do carry, what are you supposed to do against THAT? What option do you have when the police have so much force available? I hear stories daily about police abuse of power. . . and yet we want to arm them to the teeth? Give them flashbangs to serve warrants and assault people who are late paying their taxes?


When the police do it it's called law
when a citizen does it, it's called crime.

strong disconnect there.

Frankly I am not concerned with being able to "fight back" against the police because even if a few cops decide to illegally break into your house if you start shooting at them they and their 8-12 buddies who will arrive most ricky tick will ventilate the fuck out of you. Shit like this just gives them more of a "rambo" complex which imho is a big reason for a lot of the bad cops out there. Well, the biggest reason is the bullshit "blue line" crap that makes even the good cops "bad cops". Sorry bud but if you are sworn to uphold the law yet you protect an asshole with a badge who you personally watched break the law thus allowing, and even empowering, them to continue doing so..... You ain't a "good cop" in my book anymore. I am not sure if I would say he is as bad as the other but pretty damn close.

Unfortunately if you break the "blue line" then the other so called "good cops" will shun you and make your work life miserable. Thats some real upstanding members of society right there. Its not like they have the power to fuck someones life up or get away with severely injuring a person due to their position or anything...

 

[futurefields]

in my country, the cops will have to drive Geo Metro's the ones with 3 cylinders

 

[BoberFett]

Heres a better thing. There were 794,300 total police officers in the United States in 2010. Out of those 794K there were a total of 60 officers shot and killed in the line of duty, that works out to 0.0000785032% of total police officers that were shot and killed in the line of duty. I don't have the time to run the numbers right now but it looks like cops are one of the least likely groups to be killed by a gun shot wound.

So now that we have actual information to make informed and educated opinions, why exactly do they need armored vehicles designed to be used in warzones again?

PS the number of cops shot and killed in 2012 was only 49 but I couldn't easily find reliable numbers on total police in the US. Point being its not like its been rising or anything like that.

Bah, who needs facts when you've got fear and hyperbole?

 

[NoStateofMind]

Ok, they aren't tanks and some of the towns aren't necessarily small.


One must still ask why the hell they need these vehicles? I don't know about you but I haven't heard of many police vehicles being attacked by landmines or IEDs here in the states. Haven't heard of a situation in which a vehicle that can mount a full auto .50 Cal would have been useful in either.

For fucks sake, being a police officer isn't even that dangerous (relatively speaking) and the vast majority of what serious injuries that do happen are not at the hands or the fault of a bad guy. The number one cause of injury for a police officer are auto accidents. Want to save more cops lives then sell the retarded ass .mil hardware and use the money to upgrade the safety devices in the cops day to day vehicles (roll cages maybe, 5 point harnesses, additional or better airbag systems?).

Heres a better thing. There were 794,300 total police officers in the United States in 2010. Out of those 794K there were a total of 60 officers shot and killed in the line of duty, that works out to 0.0000785032% of total police officers that were shot and killed in the line of duty. I don't have the time to run the numbers right now but it looks like cops are one of the least likely groups to be killed by a gun shot wound.

So now that we have actual information to make informed and educated opinions, why exactly do they need armored vehicles designed to be used in warzones again?

PS the number of cops shot and killed in 2012 was only 49 but I couldn't easily find reliable numbers on total police in the US. Point being its not like its been rising or anything like that.

Stop the logic and reasoning. No one wants to hear that annoying shit.

 

[Darwin333]

LOLanarchy






the nice thing about these being places is that in really bad weather, high winds, tornado threats, minor flooding, these can drive around and help the citizenry

the bad thing, is that they can easily abused to make the swat team a seriously dangerous group of delta force wanna-bes

tho the military style warrant searches ETC are going to happen with or without these, those require separate controls.

lucky for me, FOR NOW, my countys judges and SA's are very anti no knock warrants


I always am a bit torn on this stuff, I used to work for a LEO/EMA grant funds administrator, and with a lot of LEOS as a municipal gov employee

I know a lot of great officers personally. I like to see them get gear that keeps them safe, but I also think the current use of force overall by PDs has become extreme in the name of 'officer safety'

they know the risks and claim to have accepted them by wearing a badge, but then some want to be able to kill anyone that might be a threat, to save their own skin

My roofing crew has a FAR more dangerous job than a police officer does and the numbers back that up. As I pointed out earlier, police officers don't really have all that dangerous of a job, they just like to make you think they do. I'm sorry but all this "officer safety" bullshit is just an excuse to go all rambo. Don't get me wrong, I am all for common sense stuff that does make their job safer, things like bullet proof vests and safer cars. I am most definitely NOT in favor of them putting citizens in greater danger by using no-knocks for bullshit reasons or throwing flash bangs onto a sleeping 6 or 7 year old child for the sake of "officer safety". Fuck that, like you said they signed up for the job and if they can't perform said job without needing to justify throwing flashbangs into a house with children for "their safety" then they should be in the girl scouts and not LE.

 

[Darwin333]

Bah, who needs facts when you've got fear and hyperbole?

Fact of the matter is, MY job is far more dangerous than a cops job and I don't "fear" my job. I don't wake up and think of what new outrageous methods in which I can impose on other people because I am so scared of my job. I, like most other sane people in the world, take every reasonable meassure to ensure my safety and the safety of my crews. The key word is reasonable.

Fucking armored personnel carriers built for the very specific purpose of moving troops in a war zone in which people are shooting machine guns at you, shooting RPGs at you, might happen to run over a land mind and various other shit that goes on in an actual war zone is not very reasonable imho. Using twelve guys that no reasonable person could differentiate from military personnel equipped with fully automatic rifles and flash bang grenades storming a house to grab a guy that has absolutely zero history of being violent isn't reasonable either. Please don't give me the bullshit "he might flush the evidence though!!!", first of all have the fucking water turned off (personally I would turn the water off and post two cops outside, he will come out just as soon as he takes a piss) and secondly, him destroying evidence is not worth risking other lives. Make no mistake, no knock raids do in fact risk far more lives than just the officers and the "bad guy".

FFS do I really need to tell the police that if you turn off their water and electricity that they will very willfully leave the house rather quickly. Don't even have to knock, just wait for him to come to you. Naw fuck that, lets get all dressed up, bust out the full autos, shoot some dogs, throw a few flash bangs and take this guy selling pot down HARD!!!

 

[Darwin333]

PMs are only for cybering

Here's my point: I don't worry about others because I know I can protect myself and my family. I have zero doubts about that. Whether its with knowledge of the law, the right attitude or God forbid, with force. I don't rely on the police to defend me and I don't fear them.

If you are this afraid of them, you are missing some of the key components to feeling secure. I don't know what you are missing but you are missing something.

I do not need to fear something to know that it is wrong and fucked up and we as a decent society should attempt to rectify it. Your attitude seams to be "I couldn't care less if it gets worse and other people are unnecessarily harmed or even killed so long as it isn't me". You sit here and talk about other people living in fear like you have the high ground when all you are really doing is being selfish. Frankly I pity people like you, I truly do.

Make no mistake, it is not fear that forms my opinions, it is compassion for my fellow man.

 

[Jeff7]

Heres a better thing. There were 794,300 total police officers in the United States in 2010. Out of those 794K there were a total of 60 officers shot and killed in the line of duty, that works out to 0.0000785032% of total police officers that were shot and killed in the line of duty. I don't have the time to run the numbers right now but it looks like cops are one of the least likely groups to be killed by a gun shot wound.

So now that we have actual information to make informed and educated opinions, why exactly do they need armored vehicles designed to be used in warzones again?

PS the number of cops shot and killed in 2012 was only 49 but I couldn't easily find reliable numbers on total police in the US. Point being its not like its been rising or anything like that.

Two extra zeros after the decimal there. And I came up with 0.0075538%.
Still...not too many.

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2013/11/2...wide-getting-armored-vehicles-left-over-from/


From Fox news:

It's armored. It's heavy. It's intimidating. And it's free," said Albany County Sheriff Craig Apple, among five county sheriff's departments and three other police agencies in New York that have taken delivery of an MRAP.

I'm sorry, but what a fucking moron. Unokitty hit it earlier, these things are NOT free. They are extremely expensive to maintain and they are extremely expensive to fuel. The Police departments also don't have trained mechanics to fix these vehicles so who is going to do it?

These "free" vehicles are going to eat up budgets better spent on buying bullets so cops could actually train with their weapons and not be incompetent clowns whenever they discharge their weapon or better yet hire more cops. That will do more to protect the citizenry than these armored behemoths. Last I checked the USA doesn't have an IED problem.

If these assholes want to play soldier then they should have joined the Army. Leave the war toys on the battlefield.

Or, if there's money sitting around doing nothing useful, the higher-ups in government should be doing their goddamn jobs and manage those budgets properly. The private sector doesn't look kindly on unnecessary expenditures, at least when their revenue stream is not unlimited. (Large players in the financial sector need not apply. The federal government will see to your "needs.")

Acquiring a "free" toy that's not going to be cheap to use, and which is not inherently useful for serving the true purpose of your organization, is a bad decision that might land a private sector worker in some trouble.

The Police departments also don't have trained mechanics to fix these vehicles so who is going to do it?

Sounds like the federal government will have to provide funding for highly-lucrative contracts to award to some private companies to perform maintenance on these things. It's ok, we don't even need to worry about where that money comes from. It's to keep your family safe, and it helps buy corrupt politicians (I know, that's redundant) brownie points with their friends who own those companies. Everyone (who they care about) wins.

 

[rudeguy]

I do not need to fear something to know that it is wrong and fucked up and we as a decent society should attempt to rectify it. Your attitude seams to be "I couldn't care less if it gets worse and other people are unnecessarily harmed or even killed so long as it isn't me". You sit here and talk about other people living in fear like you have the high ground when all you are really doing is being selfish. Frankly I pity people like you, I truly do.

Make no mistake, it is not fear that forms my opinions, it is compassion for my fellow man.

You pity me? Because I refuse to live in fear?

You have serious issues.

 

[Lithium381]

You pity me? Because I refuse to live in fear?

You have serious issues.

Regardless of someone living in fear or not, do you concur that arming police with such vehicles is bad? I don't live in fear; i go outside daily, shopping, to the gym, to work. I'm able to see this happening and recognize it's not a good thing. Doesn't mean i sit at home all day under my blankie with my teddy sucking my thumb. . .

 

[rudeguy]

Regardless of someone living in fear or not, do you concur that arming police with such vehicles is bad? I don't live in fear; i go outside daily, shopping, to the gym, to work. I'm able to see this happening and recognize it's not a good thing. Doesn't mean i sit at home all day under my blankie with my teddy sucking my thumb. . .

I couldn't give 2 shits about what kind of toys the cops have. People shoot at them, so they look for a solution. I don't shoot at them so I don't worry about it.

The last time I got stopped by the police I was armed. I had ran a red light and knew I deserved to be pulled over. I advised the cop that I had a CPL and was armed. I never took my hands off the wheel until told to and was very polite. Afterwards I thanked the cop for being professional and he thanked me for not making him nervous. This is even though I had a fully loaded 9mm with 2 spare mags all loaded with Gold Dot +Ps. I probably had more and better ammo on me than he did.

The point is if you act right, its not an issue.

 

[Lithium381]

I couldn't give 2 shits about what kind of toys the cops have. People shoot at them, so they look for a solution. I don't shoot at them so I don't worry about it.

The last time I got stopped by the police I was armed. I had ran a red light and knew I deserved to be pulled over. I advised the cop that I had a CPL and was armed. I never took my hands off the wheel until told to and was very polite. Afterwards I thanked the cop for being professional and he thanked me for not making him nervous. This is even though I had a fully loaded 9mm with 2 spare mags all loaded with Gold Dot +Ps. I probably had more and better ammo on me than he did.

The point is if you act right, its not an issue.

By whose standards? Someone smoked an herb and now they're in prison? I've never had an altercation with a cop, in fact everytime i've interacted with them it was a non-issue. . . .because i complied. Search youtube for countless videos of people who knew their rights. the INSTANT they said "no" to the cop his demeanor changed. They're used to having people respect their authority unquestioningly. What happens when they ask to search your vehicle. . . you can say no, but then be prepared to wait while they either get a warrant or somehow smell MJ around the car. They're in a position of power. A cops word at a trial is worth multiple witnesses saying the opposite. . . . .

 

[rudeguy]

By whose standards? Someone smoked an herb and now they're in prison? I've never had an altercation with a cop, in fact everytime i've interacted with them it was a non-issue. . . .because i complied. Search youtube for countless videos of people who knew their rights. the INSTANT they said "no" to the cop his demeanor changed. They're used to having people respect their authority unquestioningly. What happens when they ask to search your vehicle. . . you can say no, but then be prepared to wait while they either get a warrant or somehow smell MJ around the car. They're in a position of power. A cops word at a trial is worth multiple witnesses saying the opposite. . . . .

aaaah.....you're a pot head. That explains a lot.


Sorry to have used big words.

 

[Lithium381]

aaaah.....you're a pot head. That explains a lot.


Sorry to have used big words.

0 for 2 big guy. . . you're like butter 'cause you're on a roll! Never smoked in my life; tobacco or MJ.

law =/= justice

 

[AHamick]

I must be missing the outrage here. These vehicles are being acquired for free for the purpose of their bullet resistant capabilities.

Some are arguing this will cause harm to the citizens. How is an armored vehicle harmful to anyone when it doesn't have any weapons attached?

Its an armored vehicle that helps police from being shot during very specific situations. Its not coming equipped with a M240 in the turret.

The only people who should have a legitimate issue with this are people who want to shoot cops

 

[Nintendesert]

I must be missing the outrage here. These vehicles are being acquired for free for the purpose of their bullet resistant capabilities.

Some are arguing this will cause harm to the citizens. How is an armored vehicle harmful to anyone when it doesn't have any weapons attached?

Its an armored vehicle that helps police from being shot during very specific situations. Its not coming equipped with a M240 in the turret.

The only people who should have a legitimate issue with this are people who want to shoot cops

Try reading the thread.

 

[AHamick]

Try reading the thread.

I have, thanks.

The best I have seen is an argument is a financial one. These are being given away for free instead of buying a $300,000 bearcat.

Botched raids or overzealous police aggression during raids is completely unaffected by what vehicle they drive up in. If the police are going to kick in the wrong door and kill an innocent man and his dog they will do it whether they drive an MRAP or a tricycle

 

[rudeguy]

Try reading the thread.

That takes all the fun out of it!

Happy Thanksgiving everyone. Thanks for putting up with me!

 

[NoStateofMind]

I have, thanks.

The best I have seen is an argument is a financial one. These are being given away for free instead of buying a $300,000 bearcat.

Botched raids or overzealous police aggression during raids is completely unaffected by what vehicle they drive up in. If the police are going to kick in the wrong door and kill an innocent man and his dog they will do it whether they drive an MRAP or a tricycle

Uh.....

when you hear the "leader of the free world" say this:

We cannot continue to rely only on our military in order to achieve the national security objectives that we've set. We've got to have a civilian national security force that's just as powerful, just as strong, just as well-funded.

Barack Obama


Link

and you see this (warrantless home invasions) in Boston

This has nothing to do with fear or tin foil hats. It's called logic. 1+1 = 2

 

[Sonikku]

Civil War 2 incoming. They have their tanks, but we have our AR 15's. Obama has his drones, but we have our patriotic American pride. Nothing can beat that.

 

[momeNt]

cop = I was too pussy to go career military so im going to act the same while living a cushy life back home eating donughts and bullying the same kids I did in high school because they did something useful with their lives and I didnt.

You all are surprised the pig patrol wants more slop?

A lot of cops are ex-military and are looking to recapture those highs.

What you say is probably true for a lot of cops though.

 

[Darwin333]

Two extra zeros after the decimal there. And I came up with 0.0075538%.
Still...not too many.

Thank you kindly.

Lets play a game, given the info above what is the average chance that a cop will be shot and killed in the line of duty over 10 years? 20 years? 30 years (isn't that there normal "career")?

Lets find out exactly how dangerous being a cop is and what the possible savings in terms of cop lives saved could be had from these extraordinary measures.

 

[Darwin333]

You pity me? Because I refuse to live in fear?

You have serious issues.

No but now I can add "inability to comprehend what I consider to be rather easy to comprehend statements" to the list...

 

[Darwin333]

I have, thanks.

The best I have seen is an argument is a financial one. These are being given away for free instead of buying a $300,000 bearcat.

Botched raids or overzealous police aggression during raids is completely unaffected by what vehicle they drive up in. If the police are going to kick in the wrong door and kill an innocent man and his dog they will do it whether they drive an MRAP or a tricycle

Ok, I'll play even though you supposedly read the thread.

1. The vehicles are made for warzones with no consideration to the infrastructure because, well because we will probably be bombing the fuck out of the infrastructure while we are their anyway.

They are to heavy to be on any road that any sort of plausible use for them could be surmised. Fucking up the roads costs the city money to fix them and almost always causes the citizens money due to extra vehicle maintenance while the city/town takes its sweet time to fix it (usually due to budget constraints).

2. The vehicle may be free but its maintenance will not be. The more expansive a vehicle is the more it costs to maintain. Wanna gander on how much replacing a single tire on that thing costs? The fuel costs are insanely higher than any other vehicle they could use.

The .gov could give me a friggen F-22 Raptor, which would be like a dream come true for me. Guess what I could do with it? Not a damned thing because even if I could afford to fuel it up I couldn't even begin to afford to maintain the damn thing. The vehicle itself being free to me wouldn't help me much beyond the first couple of uses.

3. There are FAR more reasonable vehicles that can be armored and used as "bullet barriers" if that is what the cops truly thing they need, which I still really don't see a real need for but whatever. Those vehicles are built upon existing common day chassis using existing common day engines (albeit usually bigger V8s to carry the additional weight). Granted they aren't usually landmine resistant or bomb proof but I have yet to hear an argument as to why that quality is required by the police in the US.

I would bet real money that the Feds could sell the vehicles to other orginizations that actually need them, like say an actual military, and make enough money to purchase a brand new armored SUV to give to the local PDs. The local PDs would now have a vehicle that doesn't fuck up the roads AND that they can afford to maintain.

4. They will not last forever. How in the hell does the PD replace this vehicle that is evidently required by the department after the existing ones become unusable? I would wager that a new engine and a new set of tires for that beast costs more than the armored SUV I spoke of earlier, would you be ok with them dropping a few hundred grand of your tax dollars to replace the engine in that beast?

5. Probably could have been included in the above but the cost of maintenance will come out of their budget meaning that is less money they can spend on other things. Would you rather your local PD have one of those or 5 extra cops or being able to slightly bump the existing cops pay or better bullet proof vests or whatever. Of all those things which do you think will make you and the police safest?