Towing with manual transmission...

[Gamingphreek]

Hey Guys,

Yesterday, I was helping a friend with yard work.

He had a VERY large bush of some sort that he wanted removed from the yard. Given that I have a truck:

'95 Toyota Tacoma
2.7L I4
5 speed Manual
159.9K Miles

we figured that we would just attach my tow strap to the front tow hook (Attached with 2x 1/2" bolts to the frame) and just rip it out.

I tried in FWD and the tires (obviously) just spun on the pavement.

I tried in 4-Hi and I almost stalled out.

I tried 3x times in 4-Lo before we managed to get the tree out.
[*]The first time I started started out trying to go in reverse just like driving normally. I, subsequently had the horribly disappointing smell of burnt clutch
[*]The second time and third time, I crept until the rope was taught and then immediately went completely from clutch to gas to avoid burning the clutch up. On the second time, I stalled; however, I prevented this on the 3rd time when I succeeded in ripping it out

On all trials, my friend I was helping, said the front of my truck took an ~8" nosedive as I tried to pull.

My question is, what is the proper way to do something like this in a manual transmission?

How far should/could I have pushed the truck? Generally after a <5 seconds if nothing budged we called it. Could I have moved closer to WOT or tried to sustain the pull?

Given that I didn't have a rear tow hitch, we had to attach to the front hook. If I had both, wouldn't the front hook still be preferable given that reverse is the strongest gear in the car?

Thanks,
-Kevin

 

[PottedMeat]

I thought stuff like this was a bad idea - either the rope breaks and flies at you, or the thing comes out of the ground and flies at you.

Reminds me of this:
Youtube - How not to remove a basketball hoop.

Don't people usually dig this stuff out?

 

[waffleironhead]

First off, thats not a truck its a toy. Secondly the proper way is to not do it at all. You dont have the torque to do the job. I have had problems pulling stumps and bushes with my tractor and it has way more torque than yoour little truck.

 

[LordMorpheus]

I'd avoid jobs like that with a manual transmission. That's automatic territory, unless you've got some absurdly low ratio available.

 

[MotF Bane]

Pulling something out of the ground with a car/truck is generally a bad idea imo.

 

[MovingTarget]

There isn't anything wrong with using a vehicle with a manual transmission per se, but you do have to use the right vehicle. A 4banger Tacoma? No dice. This is tractor territory for sure.

 

[CurseTheSky]

We did this with a 4WD V8 F-150... and that was barely capable of the job. It depends on what you're pulling out (how big the bush is, how deep the roots go, etc.), but a 4 cyl truck probably isn't going to cut it.

If possible, try cutting the bush up into sections and pulling the sections out one by one.

 

[Gamingphreek]

Wow - so I'm going to say that I'm not going to do this again haha.

The truck, at peak torque generates 180ftlbs if I remember correction. I figured in reverse with 4-Lo it shouldn't have too much of a problem - apparently I was wrong. A neighbor would have been home in a few hours with a F-350 Turbo Diesel - I know my truck generates <1/2 of that torque, but without it budging the first 2 tries, would ya'll think we would have had any better luck in waiting?

We did eventually dig all the way around and cut some of the larger roots with a reciprocating saw.

I have always been of the mind that a manual transmission is always better - is there just absolutely no good way to do something like this (assuming sufficient torque?)

As for something flying - given the thickness of the rope, the 2x 1/2" bolts would probably fail first. Second off, given the way we were pulling the stump - it wouldn't have been able to fly at all.

-Kevin

 

[PhoKingGuy]

Never never never never pull or tow anything with the front hooks, they arent made for that

 

[Gamingphreek]

Originally posted by: PhoKingGuy
Never never never never pull or tow anything with the front hooks, they arent made for that

So maybe this is a dumb question, but what else are the front tow hooks for if not towing?

-Kevin

 

[LTC8K6]

The tow hooks on my Jeep are for yanking it out of axle deep mud, so I think they would handle yanking out a shrub okay.

 

[zoiks]

Likely to wear out the clutch on a manual.

 

[Malak]

Originally posted by: waffleironhead
First off, thats not a truck its a toy. Secondly the proper way is to not do it at all. You dont have the torque to do the job. I have had problems pulling stumps and bushes with my tractor and it has way more torque than yoour little truck.

Yeah when I saw it was a Tacoma I already knew this was fail. You have a pickup, not a truck. There's a world of difference. I've pulled bushes with real trucks, and even then you gotta do a lot of digging first.

 

[compman25]

Originally posted by: LTC8K6
The tow hooks on my Jeep are for yanking it out of axle deep mud, so I think they would handle yanking out a shrub okay.

They're for yanking your Jeep out of mud going forward, they're not for yanking bushes out of the ground in reverse, that's how you destroy the gears in your front end and rear end, they (the gears) aren't made to take those loads going in reverse.

 

[thegimp03]

Originally posted by: PottedMeat
I thought stuff like this was a bad idea - either the rope breaks and flies at you, or the thing comes out of the ground and flies at you.

Reminds me of this:
Youtube - How not to remove a basketball hoop.

Don't people usually dig this stuff out?

Hahaha...he's lucky the chain didn't snap, come back, and take a chunk out of his legs, or worse, face.

 

[Gamingphreek]

Originally posted by: Malak

Originally posted by: waffleironhead
First off, thats not a truck its a toy. Secondly the proper way is to not do it at all. You dont have the torque to do the job. I have had problems pulling stumps and bushes with my tractor and it has way more torque than yoour little truck.

Yeah when I saw it was a Tacoma I already knew this was fail. You have a pickup, not a truck. There's a world of difference. I've pulled bushes with real trucks, and even then you gotta do a lot of digging first.

So I am to believe that a pickup truck is no longer a truck?

They're for yanking your Jeep out of mud going forward, they're not for yanking bushes out of the ground in reverse, that's how you destroy the gears in your front end and rear end, they (the gears) aren't made to take those loads going in reverse.

Everything I know claims that reverse is the strongest gear. Did I misunderstand something along the way.

-Kevin

 

[SparkyJJO]

The problem isn't so much the transmission - though manual does make it a little harder - but more because you have a 4 banger. Not enough power there.

Reverse may be the strongest gear in the transmission (not sure on that since it is the first I've heard it), but that runs the differential gears in reverse, which are made to be run forward for the majority of the power.

 

[compman25]

Originally posted by: Gamingphreek

Originally posted by: Malak

Originally posted by: waffleironhead
First off, thats not a truck its a toy. Secondly the proper way is to not do it at all. You dont have the torque to do the job. I have had problems pulling stumps and bushes with my tractor and it has way more torque than yoour little truck.

Yeah when I saw it was a Tacoma I already knew this was fail. You have a pickup, not a truck. There's a world of difference. I've pulled bushes with real trucks, and even then you gotta do a lot of digging first.

So I am to believe that a pickup truck is no longer a truck?

They're for yanking your Jeep out of mud going forward, they're not for yanking bushes out of the ground in reverse, that's how you destroy the gears in your front end and rear end, they (the gears) aren't made to take those loads going in reverse.

Everything I know claims that reverse is the strongest gear. Did I misunderstand something along the way.

-Kevin

I'm talking about the differential gears, they aren't designed to take loads going in reverse.

 

[thecoolnessrune]

Automatics make that job alot easier do to having a torque converter, btu the plain fact is that any stump pulling that is larger than a basic bush is tractor territory. Sure big trucks can handle it (Even used our Ford Bronco for some stump pulling in the past) but the simple fact is the gears, while strong in some vehicles, were not made for that kind of duty. Tractors were built for it.

Rather than risking my truck, I would have just rented a tractor for the day.

 

[LTC8K6]

Originally posted by: compman25

Originally posted by: LTC8K6
The tow hooks on my Jeep are for yanking it out of axle deep mud, so I think they would handle yanking out a shrub okay.

They're for yanking your Jeep out of mud going forward, they're not for yanking bushes out of the ground in reverse, that's how you destroy the gears in your front end and rear end, they (the gears) aren't made to take those loads going in reverse.

There's one in the back too. Presumably that is also for times when it can't be pulled out forward, as well as for being the pulling vehicle.

 

[LordMorpheus]

Originally posted by: Gamingphreek
Wow - so I'm going to say that I'm not going to do this again haha.

The truck, at peak torque generates 180ftlbs if I remember correction. I figured in reverse with 4-Lo it shouldn't have too much of a problem - apparently I was wrong. A neighbor would have been home in a few hours with a F-350 Turbo Diesel - I know my truck generates <1/2 of that torque, but without it budging the first 2 tries, would ya'll think we would have had any better luck in waiting?

We did eventually dig all the way around and cut some of the larger roots with a reciprocating saw.

I have always been of the mind that a manual transmission is always better - is there just absolutely no good way to do something like this (assuming sufficient torque?)

As for something flying - given the thickness of the rope, the 2x 1/2" bolts would probably fail first. Second off, given the way we were pulling the stump - it wouldn't have been able to fly at all.

-Kevin

For work like this the automatic is a much better transmission. The torgue converter allows you apply torque to the wheels, with the wheels not moving, without putting any undue wear on your drivetrain (applying full engine torque to your wheels while slipping a clutch in a manual will burn the clutch very fast).

Also, the torque converter will effectively decrease your gear ratio - if the output shaft of the torque converter is not moving, you can a torque multiplication that doesn't exist in manuals.

Of course, the car makes a big difference. A tractor with a manual will do better than a corolla with an automatic, but a tacoma with an auto will be a better stump puller than a tacoma with a manual.

 

[Gamingphreek]

Originally posted by: LordMorpheus

Originally posted by: Gamingphreek
Wow - so I'm going to say that I'm not going to do this again haha.

The truck, at peak torque generates 180ftlbs if I remember correction. I figured in reverse with 4-Lo it shouldn't have too much of a problem - apparently I was wrong. A neighbor would have been home in a few hours with a F-350 Turbo Diesel - I know my truck generates <1/2 of that torque, but without it budging the first 2 tries, would ya'll think we would have had any better luck in waiting?

We did eventually dig all the way around and cut some of the larger roots with a reciprocating saw.

I have always been of the mind that a manual transmission is always better - is there just absolutely no good way to do something like this (assuming sufficient torque?)

As for something flying - given the thickness of the rope, the 2x 1/2" bolts would probably fail first. Second off, given the way we were pulling the stump - it wouldn't have been able to fly at all.

-Kevin

For work like this the automatic is a much better transmission. The torgue converter allows you apply torque to the wheels, with the wheels not moving, without putting any undue wear on your drivetrain (applying full engine torque to your wheels while slipping a clutch in a manual will burn the clutch very fast).

Also, the torque converter will effectively decrease your gear ratio - if the output shaft of the torque converter is not moving, you can a torque multiplication that doesn't exist in manuals.

Of course, the car makes a big difference. A tractor with a manual will do better than a corolla with an automatic, but a tacoma with an auto will be a better stump puller than a tacoma with a manual.

Interesting. I didn't know all of that - thank you.

When we started, I did; however, think to myself "A torque converter would be pretty convenient in this situation"

I was always of the mind that a Manual could do everything just as well, if not better, than an automatic transmission. Turns out I was very wrong

Given that a tractor is also a manual, I assume there is a technique to releasing the clutch in a scenario such as this. Do you by chance know, assuming you have enough torque, how a person is supposed to do something such as this with a manual transmission?

Thanks for all the responses everyone!
-Kevin

 

[thecoolnessrune]

Actually most tractors that are made with utility in mind feature transmission that are either hydrostatic (a type of CVT that uses hydraulic fluid. Torque automatically increases with load as pressure builds), or a torque converter attached to the manual transmission. Torque converters aren't exclusive to automatics, they're just the principal method of making an automatic work.

 

[compman25]

Originally posted by: LTC8K6

Originally posted by: compman25

Originally posted by: LTC8K6
The tow hooks on my Jeep are for yanking it out of axle deep mud, so I think they would handle yanking out a shrub okay.

They're for yanking your Jeep out of mud going forward, they're not for yanking bushes out of the ground in reverse, that's how you destroy the gears in your front end and rear end, they (the gears) aren't made to take those loads going in reverse.

There's one in the back too. Presumably that is also for times when it can't be pulled out forward, as well as for being the pulling vehicle.

When you're being pulled out from behind most of the load is taken off your vehicle and is put on the vehicle pulling you.

 

[Malak]

Originally posted by: Gamingphreek

Originally posted by: Malak

Originally posted by: waffleironhead
First off, thats not a truck its a toy. Secondly the proper way is to not do it at all. You dont have the torque to do the job. I have had problems pulling stumps and bushes with my tractor and it has way more torque than yoour little truck.

Yeah when I saw it was a Tacoma I already knew this was fail. You have a pickup, not a truck. There's a world of difference. I've pulled bushes with real trucks, and even then you gotta do a lot of digging first.

So I am to believe that a pickup truck is no longer a truck?

A pickup and a truck are two different things. Definitions:

Pickup: Also called pickup truck. a small truck with a low-sided open body, used for deliveries and light hauling.

Truck: Any of various wheeled frames used for transporting heavy objects.

Heavy. Light. Your little tacoma is designed for light work. Pulling bushes is not light work. Hauling groceries is.