top 5 cards are NV; does ATI loosing battle?

[Gamer X]

Originally posted by: josh6079

Originally posted by: jiffylube1024
7900GTX is all hype; its just reputation from the 7800GTX 512MB and previous good NV cards; considering the 7900GTX costs more than the X1900XTX (or the almost as fast but even cheaper X1900XT), that's just brand loyalty at its finest.

7900GT, 7600GT and 7800GS AGP are all great cards at sweet pricepoints and ATI really has no firm answer to the $299 (MSRP) 7900GT, the <$200 7600GT or the 7800GS AGP, which is the fastest, most fully featured AGP card.

Nvidia is rolling with 90nm and tiny-died GPU's; ATI, due to their massive transistor eating memory controller unfortunately just can't hit the same pricepoints Nvidia can, certainly not while attempting to make as much money as NV can on their cheaper-to-manufacture chips.

Once ATI's X1900 and X1800 GTO's roll out and then drop in price a bit (and potentially people find out how to unlock them), ATI will at least have competitors at ~$200 and ~$300, by cutting down their premium cards.

I thought ATI was going to be releasing a 1900GT to combat the 7900GT. Was that just a bogus claim or what?

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[A554SS1N]

As regards the tomshardware rating with NV cards in the top 5, that's bull (this coming from an NV fanboi). As regards the usual fanboi banter between guys on this forum - please, just keep it to yourselves!!! As far as I see it at the moment, ATi have the best single card it terms of speed at the moment, with the X1900XT and XTX, but NVidia have better cards at lower price points with the 7900GT and 7600GT, then at the bottom, ATi's X1300 is faster than 7300, and fairly close in price. So the way I see it, ATi have the top and bottom markets, and NVidia have the middle at the moment in this ever changing market.

 

[PingSpike]

ATI definately has the better tech right now IMO. But, with the exception of a few notable titles its not so much better that you can just discount the competition. And if you take other considerations into account, like ATIs piss poor coolers and lack of any partners as awesome as EVGA. Plus ATI continues to be weak or late on the midrange offerings, which is what people actually buy. They lust after the high end parts, but if a guy has X amount of dollars to spend it doesn't matter if ATIs flagship is faster, only if their part at X dollars is.

 

[Extelleron]

Originally posted by: PingSpike
ATI definately has the better tech right now IMO. But, with the exception of a few notable titles its not so much better that you can just discount the competition. And if you take other considerations into account, like ATIs piss poor coolers and lack of any partners as awesome as EVGA. Plus ATI continues to be weak or late on the midrange offerings, which is what people actually buy. They lust after the high end parts, but if a guy has X amount of dollars to spend it doesn't matter if ATIs flagship is faster, only if their part at X dollars is.

$270~ = X1800XT/soon to be X1900GT
$180~ = X1800GTO
$110~ = X1600 PRO
$80-90 = X1300 PRO

 

[golem]

$270~ = X1800XT/soon to be X1900GT
$180~ = X1800GTO
$110~ = X1600 PRO
$80-90 = X1300 PRO

Hard to argue with the x1800xt until the 7900gt becomes more available and cheaper.
But I think the 7600GT is comparable to the x1800GTO and slight cheaper.
Dunno about the x1600pro or the x1300pro.

 

[Wreckage]

When you write a review of a card like that you don't go by FPS in Oblivion.

You go by package contents, driver & software quality, board quality, warranty, service, noise, etc.

All things ATI lags behind in.

 

[mikek753]

then I would buy X1900GT instead 7900GT in case X1900GT performs better
however I expect X1900GT will use 20-40W more then 7900GT - we'll see in two weeks

if X1900GT supply will tight the we'll NOT see X1900GT nor 7900GT wide avail.

meanwhile 7900GT came with VIVO from XFX at ZZF
that would be very tough competition vs X1900GT that should come with VIVO inside

that definatelly will benefit us (users) when X1900GT come out ;-)

 

[akugami]

Originally posted by: Wreckage
When you write a review of a card like that you don't go by FPS in Oblivion.

You go by package contents, driver & software quality, board quality, warranty, service, noise, etc.

All things ATI lags behind in.

Lol. Changing stances to make nVidia come out on top again huh? Driver quality, nVidia has a slight edge over ATI. However, it's overblown. I see nearly as many issues with nVidia drivers so it's not like they are free of bugs. Most of the issues you list are actually the fault of board manufactorers such as ASUS, Sapphire, Gigabyte, etc. as they (and not ATI) are the ones who actually contract and manufactor the final video card product. ATI and nVidia only make reference designs. Take HIS, they are redesigning the cooling on the X1900XT(X) and making one that runs cooler and quieter than the reference design.

It's funny you list warranty and service because AFAIK, nVidia doesn't sell any video cards at all. Only their partners do. nVidia only sells GPU cores. So ATI's crappy warranty is better than nVidia's no warranty.

Board quality? Whaoh, when did we start inspecting the quality of the boards themselves? Link to a review of the board quality between different video cards?

 

[TantrumusMaximus]

Hogwash.

Yes IQ is subjective but playable games in hi-res using HDR and other advanced features enabled is where the IQ piece that ATI "can" do and nvidia "can't" do comes into play.

Take a look at some reviews out there in 1920x1200 in x1900xtx vs. 7900gtx ATI SMOKES the nvidia board, last piece I needed to choose the x1900xtx, I am SO glad I did.

 

[Wreckage]

Originally posted by: akugami

Originally posted by: Wreckage
When you write a review of a card like that you don't go by FPS in Oblivion.

You go by package contents, driver & software quality, board quality, warranty, service, noise, etc.

All things ATI lags behind in.

Lol. Changing stances to make nVidia come out on top again huh? Driver quality, nVidia has a slight edge over ATI. However, it's overblown. I see nearly as many issues with nVidia drivers so it's not like they are free of bugs. Most of the issues you list are actually the fault of board manufactorers such as ASUS, Sapphire, Gigabyte, etc. as they (and not ATI) are the ones who actually contract and manufactor the final video card product. ATI and nVidia only make reference designs. Take HIS, they are redesigning the cooling on the X1900XT(X) and making one that runs cooler and quieter than the reference design.

It's funny you list warranty and service because AFAIK, nVidia doesn't sell any video cards at all. Only their partners do. nVidia only sells GPU cores. So ATI's crappy warranty is better than nVidia's no warranty.

Board quality? Whaoh, when did we start inspecting the quality of the boards themselves? Link to a review of the board quality between different video cards?

I was using "ATI" & "NVIDIA" in the context of the original post. Cards with NVIDIA GPU's get better user reviews than ATI. That is what we are talking about here.

It's funny your sig complains about the use of "semantics" in a discussion and yet here you are doing just that.

Fanboys I can tolerate it's the pure hypocrisy that many of you extrude that is so intolerable.

 

[golem]

It's funny you list warranty and service because AFAIK, nVidia doesn't sell any video cards at all. Only their partners do. nVidia only sells GPU cores. So ATI's crappy warranty is better than nVidia's no warranty.

This doesn't make sense at all. I don't buy bare GPU cores. I buy finished cards from the board partners of ATI or Nvidia. The warrenties that are available from these board partners are generally better from the Nvidia side. Tho. I think there is one ATI board partner now that does offer lifetime warrenty. There are like 3 or 4 on the Nvidia side.

 

[blckgrffn]

Originally posted by: golem

It's funny you list warranty and service because AFAIK, nVidia doesn't sell any video cards at all. Only their partners do. nVidia only sells GPU cores. So ATI's crappy warranty is better than nVidia's no warranty.

This doesn't make sense at all. I don't buy bare GPU cores. I buy finished cards from the board partners of ATI or Nvidia. The warrenties that are available from these board partners are generally better from the Nvidia side. Tho. I think there is one ATI board partner now that does offer lifetime warrenty. There are like 3 or 4 on the Nvidia side.

EVGA - do what you want to the card without physically changing anything on the card and the warranty still applies.

XFX - buy the card and resell it, the second buyer also has lifetime warranty.

No ATI AIB partner offeres coverage like that.

 

[BenSkywalker]

Nvidia is rolling with 90nm and tiny-died GPU's; ATI, due to their massive transistor eating memory controller unfortunately just can't hit the same pricepoints Nvidia can, certainly not while attempting to make as much money as NV can on their cheaper-to-manufacture chips.

I recall prior to the launch of the 7900GTX when all the talk about a 32 pipe nV part was going around I point out repeatedly that nV would be far better off releasing a part that was simply competitive and then raking in huge profits. Not that they were listening to me, but the strategy appears to be working quite nicely.

On current pricing- the mass enthusiast market saw the 1900xtx launch at $600 and that is what stuck in their head. They likely aren't fully aware that the price has been lowered by a heavy amount- this is nigh entirely ATi's doing with their stupendous PR team

Honestly, until people started pointing it out in this forum I had no idea ATi was so hurting they had slashed prices almost a third in such a short period of time(although, if I was planning on buying one of the uber low IQ/shimmering/1900/7900 current parts I would have found that out).

 

[Extelleron]

Originally posted by: Wreckage
When you write a review of a card like that you don't go by FPS in Oblivion.

You go by package contents, driver & software quality, board quality, warranty, service, noise, etc.

All things ATI lags behind in.

Driver Quality? Equal, but at least ATI gives us real, non-beta drivers.
Contents- Same
Board Quality: ATI > nVidia (few problems with X1900's, many probs with rushed 7900)
Warranty: PowerColor Lifetime FTW
Noise: Not noticeable when playing games
Features: ATI > nVidia (HDR+AA, AAA, HQAF)

 

[Ronin]

Originally posted by: Extelleron

Driver Quality? Equal, but at least ATI gives us real, non-beta drivers.
Contents- Same Wrong, which shows you know absolutely nothing about drivers. There is nothing equal about drivers between the two companies. nVIDIA does a better job, hands down (although hardcore fanATics will tell you different.
Board Quality: ATI > nVidia (few problems with X1900's, many probs with rushed 7900)Wrong again. Not to mention the fact that with nVIDIA, at least you have multiple vendors to choose from. Your 'many problems' were with what..one manufacturer, who has a notorious reputation for being shoddy? You get what you pay for.
Warranty: PowerColor Lifetime FTWAnd?
Noise: Not noticeable when playing gamesYou're obviously deaf.
Features: ATI > nVidia (HDR+AA, AAA, HQAF)My god, you actually got 1 thing right, sort of. HDR+AA, yes. The other two are highly debatable

 

[akugami]

Originally posted by: golem

It's funny you list warranty and service because AFAIK, nVidia doesn't sell any video cards at all. Only their partners do. nVidia only sells GPU cores. So ATI's crappy warranty is better than nVidia's no warranty.

This doesn't make sense at all. I don't buy bare GPU cores. I buy finished cards from the board partners of ATI or Nvidia. The warrenties that are available from these board partners are generally better from the Nvidia side. Tho. I think there is one ATI board partner now that does offer lifetime warrenty. There are like 3 or 4 on the Nvidia side.

Same argument I was making but put in a different way. I don't disagree that nVidia's video card partners, most notably EVGA, has excellent service and better than ATI's partners. However, nVidia does not offer warranty of any kind as they do not sell cards. This is not a positive point of nVidia but of nVidia's card partners. My point was to show that it's not ATI or nVidia that controls these points. And that should they wish to, ATI's partners would be able to offer a similar level of service. Would you agree with that or not?

All these extraneous factors (warranty, service, quality of parts, etc) are out of the control of both ATI and nVidia. Due to cost, most companies are simply going to follow the reference design and I have no problem with that. It is advisable when reference designs such as ATI's X1900 and nVidia's 7900GT cooling solution is overly noisy to redesign it and put in a quieter solution that keeps the same cooling performance or betters it much like HIS's upcoming X1900 cards which are quieter and lower temp than stock. nVidia should absolutely be commended for providing a nice cooling solution to their cards. Certainly better than the reference design cooling on the X1900's.

And I still find the "board quality" as a plus on the 7900's laughable because I have not seen any review of the actual boards and the components they use. I have heard on numorous forums about problems with early batches 7900's having glitchy boards. This has since been corrected. Haven't heard anything similar about the X1900's.

 

[Wreckage]

Originally posted by: akugami
All these extraneous factors (warranty, service, quality of parts, etc) are out of the control of both ATI and nVidia.

ATI MAKES VIDEO CARDS.

So your statement is wrong that they are not liable for lack of quality.

 

[golem]

Same argument I was making but put in a different way. I don't disagree that nVidia's video card partners, most notably EVGA, has excellent service and better than ATI's partners. However, nVidia does not offer warranty of any kind as they do not sell cards. This is not a positive point of nVidia but of nVidia's card partners. My point was to show that it's not ATI or nVidia that controls these points. And that should they wish to, ATI's partners would be able to offer a similar level of service. Would you agree with that or not?

I understand what you are saying. But I don't think it really applies to the end user. An end user will not be purchasing a gpu from ATI or Nvidia, so whether ATI/Nvidia provides a warrenty or not on the GPU itself is unimportant. The end user buys a video card, warrantied by a the card maker, and in this area Nvidia has the better partners. Power Color may have a lifetime warranty, but like someone else mentioned, there are a least 2 Nvida partners that offer this plus extra.

Remember this topic is about the top five CARDS, not the top five bare gpu cores.

 

[Acanthus]

Originally posted by: Gamer X

Originally posted by: Ronin

Originally posted by: Gamer X
X1900XT / X1900XTX > 7900GTX

X1800XT > 7900GT

Or not.

Superior image quality / AA and AF

We arent seeing 75% overclocks on X1800s

Stock though id give the nod to the X1800XT if the prices were equal.

 

[Drayvn]

Just like to add, umm ATi isnt the only manufacturer of its cards... Sapphire is a major manufacturer.

nVidia dont in fact make any of their cards, all their vendors do.

 

[akugami]

Originally posted by: Wreckage

Originally posted by: akugami
All these extraneous factors (warranty, service, quality of parts, etc) are out of the control of both ATI and nVidia.

ATI MAKES VIDEO CARDS.

So your statement is wrong that they are not liable for lack of quality.

LOL. ATI doesn't make any video cards. All "Built By ATI" card are rebranded Sapphires and I believe Powercolors. But yes, thanks, try again.

Originally posted by: golem
I understand what you are saying. But I don't think it really applies to the end user. An end user will not be purchasing a gpu from ATI or Nvidia, so whether ATI/Nvidia provides a warrenty or not on the GPU itself is unimportant. The end user buys a video card, warrantied by a the card maker, and in this area Nvidia has the better partners. Power Color may have a lifetime warranty, but like someone else mentioned, there are a least 2 Nvida partners that offer this plus extra.

Remember this topic is about the top five CARDS, not the top five bare gpu cores.

I don't disagree at all. I just think it's wrong to label everything as ATI's fault as the fanboy and self admitted troll Wreckage states.

ATI and nVidia are much more visible as far as branding on video cards go. It's wrong to be blaming ATI for crappy service by ASUS on an ASUS built video card using an ATI GPU. Just as it's wrong to be blaming nVidia for poor service from ASUS on an nVidia based video card or motherboard. *NOTE* I've had excellent customer service from ASUS, I was just throwing their name out there as an example. Do you blame nVidia for Asus's screwup on their A8N-SLI Deluxe motherboards and the crappy northbridge HSF on them? Do you blame nVidia or VIA for ABIT using ****** caps in ABIT's motherboards a few years back?

 

[BenSkywalker]

LOL. ATI doesn't make any video cards. All "Built By ATI" card are rebranded Sapphires and I believe Powercolors. But yes, thanks, try again.

Then ATi makes nothing at all. Think about that and you will understand it.

 

[imported_michaelpatrick33]

I have you all beat! I own two Evga 7900GTXs at 720core and 1822mem in SLI while owning $25,000 in ATI stock bought at $10.50. :laugh: FTW

 

[Acanthus]

Originally posted by: michaelpatrick33
I have you all beat! I own two Evga 7900GTXs at 720core and 1822mem in SLI while owning $25,000 in ATI stock bought at $10.50. :laugh: FTW

I own NV and ATi stock :Q am i crazy?

 

[aka1nas]

Nvidia's drivers are still a bit above ATI's. especially in linux drivers, which ATI sucks in frankly. IMHO, I find nview to be a much better display management solution than hydravision. Having used both, nview is much more flexible, especially with TV-Out support.

I do agree that the X1900 based cards are the single card to get if you have the cash to burn, but Nvidia is more competitive at the pricepoints I would probably be looking at.