(Tom's) Seven GeForce GTX 660 Ti Cards: Exploring Memory Bandwidth

[VulgarDisplay]

CRUUSADE RAWRARARWWR where exactly did I defend anything Nvidia related in this thread? Let's see... nowhere. I never said the gtx660ti was great, good, or even bad for now or for the future. I never said it was a good deal. I have never made any discussions about AA, other than to say 8X over 4X is visually almost entirely not noticeable. Please show me where I have said otherwise. Until then, apologize for accusing me of doing things I obviously am not doing and stop being confrontational. The only thing I said in this thread is the article isn't meaningful w/o increasing the memory bandwidth to see if that alleviates AA bottlenecks, that there looks like a driver / performance glitch in the [h] benchmark, AND that 8X AA is not some new standard in which all benchmarks should be ran with.

Only the first paragraph in my post was a reply to your post. The rest of the stuff was to the other people that were posting saying things like "8xMSAA is dumb because FXAA is good enough."

Those were the same people completely changing their story once the numbers didn't coincide with their arguments.

 

[Phynaz]

Maybe the 7870 isn't applying AA to the entire scene. Magic drivers and all. That would be some reveal. Might be worth looking into.

Way to slip an accusation of driver cheating in there. You're really very good at deflecting.

 

[Keysplayr]

Way to slip an accusation of driver cheating in there. You're really really very good at deflecting.

Oh get a grip man. I wasn't entirely serious.

 

[chimaxi83]

Oh get a grip man. I wasn't entirely serious.

At least you can admit you were trolling :thumbsup: I like that.

 

[Keysplayr]

At least you can admit you were trolling :thumbsup: I like that.

Something you could never do. It was sort of tongue in cheek. It's against AMD so you call it trolling. Expected.
Chimaxi, don't make me search all your troll posts. We don't have that kind of time.

 

[RussianSensation]

He didn't think it through. Yeah, it doesn't make any sense at all. As you said, 670 rivals 7970 in Batman AC in almost all other reviews out there. So 670 losing to a 7870 in this title isn't really plausible.

You guys keep saying it, but it doesn't. AMD has regained the lead in Batman AC, Dirt 3 and Skyrim a long time ago and you guys still haven't caught up to new reviews (or purposely ignore them). The reviews where 670/680 hang in Batman are those which use FXAA or no AA in Batman AC. Where MSAA is used, 670 is slower than 7970 in Batman AC and actually 670 is barely as fast as an 7950 "925mhz" with 8xMSAA (arguably worse due to lower min frames):

http://www.computerbase.de/artikel/grafikkarten/2012/test-amd-radeon-hd-7950-mit-925-mhz/23/

or

or

Things get really bad for GTX670/680 series when you crank MSAA at 2560x1440, further revealing memory bandwidth bottleneck. HD7870 is just 4 fps slower than a 670 in HT4u.net Review.

At Xbitlabs HD7970 GE leads a 670 by 49% at 1440P (and 30% at 1080P).

It's not surprise 7870 would have no problem beating 660 with MSAA.

On the positive side, when NVidia fixes the memory bandwidth bottleneck in the GTX780, NV cards will see a huge performance boost with MSAA.

 

[SolMiester]

Yes, AMD is pretty much cementing, once again, their price/performance domination (as well as single card performance, but we already knew that).

Yes, after rorting everyone for the same product for the previous 6+ months....

 

[toyota]

depending on the review, it does





and here too http://www.anandtech.com/show/5818/nvidia-geforce-gtx-670-review-feat-evga/9

 

[tviceman]

On the positive side, when NVidia fixes the memory bandwidth bottleneck in the GTX780, NV cards will see a huge performance boost with MSAA.

And 8X MSAA will still be a trivial, almost utterly worthless image quality improvement vs. 4X MSAA and the cost it takes to implement.

 

[RussianSensation]

and here too http://www.anandtech.com/show/5818/nvidia-geforce-gtx-670-review-feat-evga/9

^ Those are 4xAA, using a Review from May. Please check 10-15 more up-to-date reviews with drivers that aren't 4-5 months old. AMD cards are leading with MSAA in Batman AC at each price level.

Performance in Batman AC MSAA increased 50-60% since the time GTX670 launched. Here 7970 using old drivers vs. HD7970 GE using newer drivers from 2 months ago.

Here is another one:

 

[NIGELG]

Something you could never do. It was sort of tongue in cheek. It's against AMD so you call it trolling. Expected.
Chimaxi, don't make me search all your troll posts. We don't have that kind of time.

Tongue in cheek against AMD?Expected.Do you make such flippant ''tongue in cheek'' remarks against the great Nvidia?I think not....but perhaps you could prove me wrong.

 

[Keysplayr]

Tongue in cheek against AMD?Expected.Do you make such flippant ''tongue in cheek'' remarks against the great Nvidia?I think not....but perhaps you could prove me wrong.

It's not quite clear why you would care about such a thing. Care to enlighten me? Does it really bother you on a personal level? If not, then please, just simmer down now. When I say something about AMD that isn't up to your standards, just know that I am not directing the remark towards you personally, nor should you receive it as any kind of insult to your person.

 

[toyota]

^ Those are 4xAA. Go check 10-15 reviews. AMD cards lead with MSAA in Batman AC at each price level.

Performance in Batman AC MSAA almost doubled with Cats 12.7 Beta in June. Here 7970 using old drivers vs. HD7970 GE using newer drivers from 2 months ago.

http://www.sweclockers.com/image/diagram/3136?k=c9be4b3c6e44cf1d17c71ebcb819b8da

even at 2560 its right there with 7970 and easily beating the 7950 in other reviews.

 

[NIGELG]

It's not quite clear why you would care about such a thing. Care to enlighten me?

It's quite clear to me why you bash ATi....tongue in cheek you claim.But it's an unfair remark you made just because AMD is apparently winning in some of the battles and you don't want to wrap your mind around that happening,don't you?:hmm:

 

[Keysplayr]

It's quite clear to me why you bash ATi....tongue in cheek you claim.But it's an unfair remark you made just because AMD is apparently winning in some of the battles and you don't want to wrap your mind around that happening,don't you?:hmm:

It was tongue in cheek. You can't deal with it, I suggest counseling.
Are we done? No, of course we aren't. PM me if you want to rip each other apart.

 

[RussianSensation]

And 8X MSAA will still be a trivial, almost utterly worthless image quality improvement vs. 4X MSAA and the cost it takes to implement.

Even with 4xMSAA 670/680 are still behind 7970/7970 GE at 2560x1440/1600P.
http://www.computerbase.de/artikel/grafikkarten/2012/test-amd-radeon-hd-7950-mit-925-mhz/3/

or

http://tpucdn.com/reviews/Sapphire/HD_7950_Vapor-X/images/perfrel_2560.gif

Overclock 7970 to 1150+mhz and 670/680 cards are gone. NV has a serious memory bandwidth bottleneck beyond 1080P.

 

[RussianSensation]

even at 2560 its right there with 7970 and easily beating the 7950 in other reviews.

No, those are with OLD drivers. I linked it specifically since only 1 AMD card is tested in that link with new drivers ---> HD7970 GE! Notice a 60%+ performance increase over 7970?
http://www.sweclockers.com/recension/15564-amd-radeon-hd-7970-gigahertz-edition

670 does not beat a 7950 "V2" with MSAA in Batman with new drivers, especially at 8xMSAA.

Check the 2nd graph I linked that shows the driver update. 7970 beats 680 in Batman AC with MSAA without problems. Now look at the very bottom how the performance was.

If you guys actually spent time reading HD7970 GE reviews in June, this wouldn't be a surprise. AMD has regained the flagship GPU leadership by:

- Winning Dirt 3, Batman AC, Skyrim
- Closing most of NV's lead in BF3, Crysis 2

This all started happened 2 months ago and you guys still haven't caught up.

 

[toyota]

No, those are with OLD drivers. The only card tested in that link with new drivers is HD7970 GE! Notice a 60% performance increase from 7970.

drivers helped that much? is the Nvidia driver team on vacation now?

 

[Keysplayr]

Your card is awesome Russian. Don't ever let anyone tell you different.

 

[notty22]

There is always some magic driver with the AMD cards, now it's the 8th iteration. That means Nvidia has got time for improvement.

 

[NIGELG]

It was tongue in cheek. You can't deal with it, I suggest counseling.
Are we done? No, of course we aren't. PM me if you want to rip each other apart.

I can deal with it....and stop ninja editing.Have a great night and no you are not worth my time to rip apart.Now you can seek counselling if you can't deal with that:\.

I strongly suggest you don't reply to me any more and don't pm me either.


Again enjoy your night,good Sir.:thumbsup:

 

[RussianSensation]

Your card is awesome Russian. Don't ever let anyone tell you different.

It has nothing to do with me "defending" my card or anything of that sort. We are discussing memory bandwidth in this thread, right? What do you think impacts MSAA and high resolution gaming? Memory bandwidth, ROPs and texture performance. Kepler has good texture and ROP performance so that can't be the answer.

So? You have an alternative theory? Why do NV cards perform so much worse at 1440/1600P and with higher MSAA levels than they do at 1080P with FXAA or no AA/minimal AA?

Skyrim with MSAA - http://www.computerbase.de/artikel/grafikkarten/2012/test-amd-radeon-hd-7950-mit-925-mhz/19/

HD7950 V2 vs. 670

1080P 0AA = +10%
1080P 4AA = +13%
1080P 8AA = +19%

1600P 0AA = +20%
1600P 4AA = +17%
1600P 8AA = +22%

Looks to me generally the higher MSAA you use and the more you increase resolution, the slower GTX670/680 cards gets. That would explain why 660 would not do that well against 7870 with MSAA and why 660Ti would have trouble beating 7950 after-market cards with MSAA enabled.

 

[ZimZum]

drivers helped that much?

This has been par for the course with ATI/AMD for some time now. Nvidia performance at launch usually isn't all that different than with later driver revisions. Sure there are improvements but for the most part NV doesnt leave much untapped performance on the table. With AMD on the other hand it seems to take them a few driver revisions to get all the performance out of a new architecture. Nvidia has the pedal to the floor out of the gate, AMD needs a few laps to get the hang of the car.

 

[tviceman]

Even with 4xMSAA 670/680 are still behind 7970/7970 GE at 2560x1440/1600P.
http://www.computerbase.de/artikel/grafikkarten/2012/test-amd-radeon-hd-7950-mit-925-mhz/3/

or

http://tpucdn.com/reviews/Sapphire/HD_7950_Vapor-X/images/perfrel_2560.gif

Overclock 7970 to 1150+mhz and 670/680 cards are gone. NV has a serious memory bandwidth bottleneck beyond 1080P.

I don't disagree with Kepler's current bandwidth issues. I'm just saying, as I have been for about the last eight weeks now, 8x MSAA is about the dumbest graphical improvement to enable per the performance hit and lack of noticeable image quality improvement.

 

[RussianSensation]

This has been par for the course with ATI/AMD for some time now. Nvidia performance at launch usually isn't all that different than with later driver revisions. Sure there are improvements but for the most part NV doesnt leave much untapped performance on the table. With AMD on the other hand it seems to take them a few driver revisions to get all the performance out of a new architecture. Nvidia has the pedal to the floor out of the gate, AMD needs a few laps to get the hang of the car.

That makes sense since Kepler is basically Fermi with no shader hot clocks but GCN was a brand new AMD architecture from the ground-up (kinda like G80 was for NV). This explains why HD7900 series had driver issues with DX9 games that 6900 didn't have, why Kepler was so fast in launch reviews and right now explains why NV hasn't been able to fix any of their performance issues in the titles where AMD leads, besides Shogun 2. Those issues are related to GK104 SKU - memory bandwidth, lack of DirectCompute performance.

This list is not short either: Alan Wake, Anno 2070, Arma II DayZ/Operations, Risen 2, Batman AC + MSAA, Skyrim + Mods + MSAA, Sleeping Dogs, Dirt Showdown, Sniper Elite V2, Battleforge, Metro 2033, Crysis 1/Warhead games, Bulletstorm, Serious Sam 3, etc. <--- NV is unlikely to regain performance in these games until they get to GTX780 and add more physical/functional units/bandwidth/compute.

I don't disagree with Kepler's current bandwidth issues. I'm just saying, as I have been for about the last eight weeks now, 8x MSAA is about the dumbest graphical improvement to enable per the performance hit and lack of noticeable image quality improvement.

If a game can run smoothly with 8xMSAA, why not turn it on? I get your point but with so many games being console ports, we almost have to raise resolution or pile on higher settings or we'll be CPU limited (Or well than a $240 7870 is fast enough most of the time).

What they tried to do in this article by testing GTX660Ti memory bandwidth limitations is by cranking AA as high as possible. They could have overclocked the memory too. The problem is MSAA is both ROP and memory bandwidth dependent. So really the reason 660Ti is so poor for MSAA are is not only memory bandwidth but those 24 ROPs. We realize that you may never play your games with 8xMSAA (especially at 2560x144) and I understand your preference. However, the article wanted to address memory bandwidth performance hit --> this is why they used 8xMSAA and it showed 660Ti has issues, admittedly it really has ROP/memory bandwidth limitations, not just memory bandwidth limitation.