"Tom Brady prefer his balls to feel a certain way" - balls underinflated

[smackababy]

This.

Just more mental gymnastics from Pats fans. Of course it technically doesn't "prove" he cheated, but he was effectively destroying evidence as you quoted above. If he was so innocent, why destroy it? Why not exonerate himself? I think we all know why he destroyed it, including Patriots fans but they'd rather wallow in their tears of delusion instead.

I've said it before and I'll keep repeating it - an article linked earlier in the thread said he destroyed it THE SAME DAY AS HIS INTERVIEW with Wells. Go ahead and spin that Patriots fans - I need the lulz today.

Is destroying potential evidence worthy of a 4 game suspension? Is there any precedent for a punishment for not cooperating with an investigation?

And, if the entire thing was not due to cheating, but due to him impeding the investigation, why would Goodell NOT use an impartial arbiter? That is the entire issue for me. If the evidence of Brady obstructing Wells was so clear, why the fuck couldn't someone impartial see it? Was he afraid someone else wouldn't "see" it? I think that is why Goodell will lose if this goes to court.

 

[emperus]

Spin! Spin! Spin that argument round and round!

Honestly, this whole debate is typical of where we are as a society (esp. In Politics). A two word slogan is easier to grasp than the facts behind it. You heard he destroyed his phone but it's harder for you to understand that anything that was sent to the locker room attendants that was in the phone they already had. So destroying the phone meant what or had what evidentiary significance?

Also it's easier to think someone cheated because you heard the term deflated, than to research the science that ALL balls will deflate due to the Cold weather and what we are talking about is a .4 PSI difference in the theoretical PSI due to the air contraction in cold weather to where the balls were "measured to be (if we don't use the gauge the ref said he used).

It's easier to believe all that because as in our Politics we're lemmings looking for someone to shock us or tell us what to think with some bullshit catchy phrase or slogan.

 

[mvbighead]

If you can supply internal memos from the Colts or signed affidavits from Caldwell and Polian saying they did it, I'll believe it. Until then, it is ridiculous speculation.

I watched every game that year. The team was atrocious. But I'll bow to your logic - it makes incredible sense that Caldwell and Polian would mastermind all those losses to give Irsay a new toy while at the same time, getting fired in the process. I'm sure getting fired was all part of their plan, right? Do you think they hatched a scheme with Irsay to infiltrate other NFL teams to report back their findings to Irsay? Guess that didn't work out too well for Polian, did it?

On top of this, I would think that if Caldwell/Polian were asked to do this to get Luck, and then were fired, that they'd be seeking out anyone who would hear their story.

The reality to me was that the team was largely built to get a big lead and dominate on pass defense. Freeney/Mathis purely were pass rushers. The interior DL was sub 300lb tackles that were supposed to penetrate their gap and rush the passer. Everyone else was on the smallish side and were supposed to simply cover their zone and gang tackle.

So what happens when you lose your ability to score points on most possessions? You have to play balanced ball. We couldn't... at all. I could see the Colts cashing it in half way through the season, but they were trying early in the season and they simply sucked. Peyton masked all of that because of how good he was. Even now that he is over 40, he is still making the Broncos extremely competitive. We had the guy in his prime for a looooOOOong time.

Call be a blind homer, but I don't find it likely that they purely sucked for Luck. Everything on that team was masked by how good Peyton was.

 

[IndyColtsFan]

Is destroying potential evidence worthy of a 4 game suspension? Is there any precedent for a punishment for not cooperating with an investigation?

If there wasn't a precedent, there is one now!

And, if the entire thing was not due to cheating, but due to him impeding the investigation, why would Goodell NOT use an impartial arbiter? That is the entire issue for me. If the evidence of Brady obstructing Wells was so clear, why the fuck couldn't someone impartial see it? Was he afraid someone else wouldn't "see" it? I think that is why Goodell will lose if this goes to court.

The ENTIRE thing wasn't about him impeding the investigation, but I do believe that was why he was punished so severely. IMO, he deserved it.

I don't know the details of the current collective bargaining agreement with regards to the powers it affords Goodell with respect to investigation and punishment. Goodell was likely well within his authority in this case.

 

[smackababy]

On top of this, I would think that if Caldwell/Polian were asked to do this to get Luck, and then were fired, that they'd be seeking out anyone who would hear their story.

The reality to me was that the team was largely built to get a big lead and dominate on pass defense. Freeney/Mathis purely were pass rushers. The interior DL was sub 300lb tackles that were supposed to penetrate their gap and rush the passer. Everyone else was on the smallish side and were supposed to simply cover their zone and gang tackle.

So what happens when you lose your ability to score points on most possessions? You have to play balanced ball. We couldn't... at all. I could see the Colts cashing it in half way through the season, but they were trying early in the season and they simply sucked. Peyton masked all of that because of how good he was. Even now that he is over 40, he is still making the Broncos extremely competitive. We had the guy in his prime for a looooOOOong time.

Call be a blind homer, but I don't find it likely that they purely sucked for Luck. Everything on that team was masked by how good Peyton was.

Plus, I think teams played the Colts a lot different with Manning out of the game. They made a backup QB beat them, which didn't work out so well for the Colts.

 

[emperus]

Kraft Statement:

“I, first and foremost, need to apologize to our fans because I truly believe what I did in May -- given the actual evidence of the situation, and the league’s history on discipline matters -- would make it much easier for the league to exonerate Tom Brady.

“Unfortunately I was wrong.

“The league’s handling of this entire process has been extremely frustrating and disconcerting. I will never understand why an initial erroneous report regarding the PSI level of footballs was leaked by a source from the NFL a few days after the AFC Championship Game, and was never corrected by those who had the correct information.

“For four months, that report cast dispersons and shaped public opinion. Yesterday’s decision by Commissioner Goodell was released in a similar manner, under an erroneous headline that read, ‘Tom Brady destroyed his cell phone.’ This headline was designed to capture headlines across the country and obscure evidence regarding the tampering of air pressure in footballs.

“It intentionally implied nefarious behavior and minimized the acknowledgement that Tom provided the history of every number he texted during that relevant time frame. We had already provided the league with every cell phone of every non-NFLPA employee that they requested, including head coach Bill Belichick.

So, again the NFL had every phone except the NFLPA employees (players). So, they basically had every text Tom would have sent anybody in the organization. Ask yourself, why would they need Tom Brady's phone?

 

[smackababy]

If there wasn't a precedent, there is one now!



The ENTIRE thing wasn't about him impeding the investigation, but I do believe that was why he was punished so severely. IMO, he deserved it.

I don't know the details of the current collective bargaining agreement with regards to the powers it affords Goodell with respect to investigation and punishment. Goodell was likely well within his authority in this case.

The entire thing has to be about him impeding the investigation because there is no evidence (destroyed or otherwise) showing Brady either knew about or directly influenced the cheating. You can't punish him because somebody may have intentionally cheated and Brady might have known about it. That is beyond fucking stupid. The only evidence showing any wrong doing on Brady's part is the phone being destroyed, from what I can see.

I do think Goodell's power to be arbiter in appeals granted is going to be challenged fully in the next CBA, if it isn't handled in this case. The NFLPA aren't going to let something like that stand, especially when he has stepped out for other cases he wasn't so involved in.

 

[IndyColtsFan]

Honestly, this whole debate is typical of where we are as a society (esp. In Politics). A two word slogan is easier to grasp than the facts behind it. You heard he destroyed his phone but it's harder for you to understand that anything that was sent to the locker room attendants that was in the phone they already had. So destroying the phone meant what or had what evidentiary significance?

That doesn't matter. At all. He was asked for his phone. He refused and destroyed it. Case closed. Just because they had the phones from the equipment guys doesn't mean they had access to EVERYTHING. Brady could've texted others about it as well. This isn't difficult.

Also it's easier to think someone cheated because you heard the term deflated, than to research the science that ALL balls will deflate due to the Cold weather and what we are talking about is a .4 PSI difference in the theoretical PSI due to the air contraction in cold weather to where the balls were "measured to be (if we don't use the gauge the ref said he used).

It's even easier to dismiss the incriminating texts from the equipment guys and try to blame cold weather.

 

[IndyColtsFan]

The entire thing has to be about him impeding the investigation because there is no evidence (destroyed or otherwise) showing Brady either knew about or directly influenced the cheating. You can't punish him because somebody may have intentionally cheated and Brady might have known about it. That is beyond fucking stupid. The only evidence showing any wrong doing on Brady's part is the phone being destroyed, from what I can see.

IIRC, there are also texts implying that the equipment guys spoke to Brady. Brady isn't as innocent as you guys want to believe.

IMO, impeding the investigation is enough to suspend him for 4 games. I'd say that for Tom Brady or some third-string running back on the Jaguars who impeded an investigation too.

 

[SunnyD]

My question for this whole thing is:

Why the fuck is this even going to court when the NFLPA agreed to the scope and format of arbitration when they signed off on the CBA in the first place?

The NFLPA basically allowed for this to happen, Brady needs to suck it up and move on with his asterisks.

 

[IndyColtsFan]

my question for this whole thing is:

why the fuck is this even going to court when the nflpa agreed to the scope and format of arbitration when they signed off on the cba in the first place?

the nflpa basically allowed for this to happen, brady needs to suck it up and move on with his asterisks.

bingo. Thank you!

 

[SP33Demon]

Brady's explanation about the cell phone makes zero sense:

"I also disagree with yesterday's narrative surrounding my cellphone. I replaced my broken Samsung phone with a new iPhone 6 AFTER my attorneys made it clear to the NFL that my actual phone device would not be subjected to investigation under ANY circumstances. As a member of a union, I was under no obligation to set a new precedent going forward, nor was I made aware at any time during Mr. Wells investigation, that failing to subject my cell phone to investigation would result in ANY discipline.

It doesn't make any sense for a lawyer to consent and surrender all phone company records but exclude the goddam phone with the actual texts. There is only one reason he destroyed the phone, because he and his lawyers knew that the only way to recover the actual CONTENT of the text (vs only Sent To: and Timestamp) is to destroy the phone. To reiterate, it doesn't make sense that the Brady camp would cooperate with respect to the phone company records but not also submit his phone. He's not fooling anyone who knows how text archive technology works.

CIO.com: What about data from the phone companies?

Luehr: I haven't heard of any investigators going to the phone company for text messages. As I understand it, the most a phone company has is the meta data. Might even be at a higher level, such as X number of messages were passed, maybe the to and from, but probably not the content itself.

It's important to have access to the device and the laptop backup. With BYOD, it underscores the importance of having a thorough exit strategy whenever an employee leaves. If you think text messages are in play, you need to have some access to that device.

http://www.cio.com/article/2378005/...ages-are-gone-forever-think-again.html?page=2

 

[smackababy]

IIRC, there are also texts implying that the equipment guys spoke to Brady. Brady isn't as innocent as you guys want to believe.

IMO, impeding the investigation is enough to suspend him for 4 games. I'd say that for Tom Brady or some third-string running back on the Jaguars who impeded an investigation too.

The text messages released to the public that I recall were of Brady complaining the balls were overinflated (which, the texts seem to imply they were) and that, like any reasonable person would do, they were going to fuck with Brady and over inflate them further.

I am not saying he is innocent. If the balls were continuously under inflated, I find it very hard to believe Brady didn't, at the very least, know about it. I am disappointed the NFL would go punish someone for cheating and destroying evidence, which may not have been destroyed (based on what Kraft is saying), to such a large degree.

Also, I do agree that if this is to be the punishment considered to fit the crime, it should be the same for everyone in the league. But, let's be honest with ourselves here. If this was the Jaguars, nobody would give a shit. The only reason this has gained so much public attention (and, then the NFLs) is because the Patriots win games.

 

[purbeast0]

lol this whole thing is such a travesty. such a terrible thing happening that now all qb's are going to suffer because the colts cried about the footballs in that game.

 

[smackababy]

Brady's explanation about the cell phone makes zero sense:

IF Brady can prove that his lawyers told him it's ok to destroy the phone, then he would have a case. Yet he didn't say he could provide evidence of this, and I bet he would say "it was verbal". Which is laughable. It doesn't make any sense for a lawyer to consent and surrender all phone company records but exclude the goddam phone with the actual texts. There is only one reason he destroyed the phone, because he and his lawyers knew that the only way to recover the actual CONTENT of the text (vs only Sent To: and Timestamp) is to destroy the phone. To reiterate, it doesn't make sense that the Brady camp would cooperate with respect to the phone company records but not also submit his phone. He's not fooling anyone who knows how text archive technology works.

http://www.cio.com/article/2378005/...ages-are-gone-forever-think-again.html?page=2

He doesn't need to. If all non union employees phones were provided AND Brady provided accurate logs of which numbers he texted during the time frame, they can use those non union phones to get logs of BOTH sent and received text messages UNLESS those messages were deleted by those non union employees.

lol this whole thing is such a travesty. such a terrible thing happening that now all qb's are going to suffer because the colts cried about the footballs in that game.

Letting there be a variance in the PSI and the league not providing the balls for each game is fucking stupid anyway. The NFL doesn't allow teams to change other equipment, why the balls? Hell, the Cowboys can't wear their throwback uniforms anymore because the NFL won't even allow different helmets (Cowboys would have to repaint their current grey helmets white and then back to grey for the next game). But, they get all "do whatever you want" with the balls all willy nilly?

 

[SP33Demon]

The text messages released to the public that I recall were of Brady complaining the balls were overinflated (which, the texts seem to imply they were) and that, like any reasonable person would do, they were going to fuck with Brady and over inflate them further.

I am not saying he is innocent. If the balls were continuously under inflated, I find it very hard to believe Brady didn't, at the very least, know about it. I am disappointed the NFL would go punish someone for cheating and destroying evidence, which may not have been destroyed (based on what Kraft is saying), to such a large degree.

Also, I do agree that if this is to be the punishment considered to fit the crime, it should be the same for everyone in the league. But, let's be honest with ourselves here. If this was the Jaguars, nobody would give a shit. The only reason this has gained so much public attention (and, then the NFLs) is because the Patriots already admitted to cheating in Spygate, accepted the penalty, and have the "once a cheater, always a cheater" stigma so they will always be under the microscope more than other teams until Belicheck is gone.

Fixed for you in bold^.

 

[purbeast0]

Fixed for you in bold^.

let's be real - this would have never made headlines and we wouldn't even be hearing anything about this if it was the bucs and mike glennon that this happened to.

the pats are and always have been (the past decade) "cool to hate" and you are either blind if you haven't noticed this or are lying to yourself.

 

[Phoenix86]

This.

Just more mental gymnastics from Pats fans. Of course it technically doesn't "prove" he cheated, but he was effectively destroying evidence as you quoted above. If he was so innocent, why destroy it? Why not exonerate himself? I think we all know why he destroyed it, including Patriots fans but they'd rather wallow in their tears of delusion instead.

I've said it before and I'll keep repeating it - an article linked earlier in the thread said he destroyed it THE SAME DAY AS HIS INTERVIEW with Wells. Go ahead and spin that Patriots fans - I need the lulz today.

Actually, I'd have been OK with him not turning it over. There's tons of reasons he wouldn't want to give that much data to the NFL. Privacy and you can stop there. There's far too much data on smart phones to simply hand over.

Destroying it, however, is very different. Like I said above with regard to Farve, one is a moral stand, the other is edging on criminal activity.

 

[purbeast0]

Actually, I'd have been OK with him not turning it over. There's tons of reasons he wouldn't want to give that much data to the NFL. Privacy and you can stop there. There's far too much data on smart phones to simply hand over.

Destroying it, however, is very different. Like I said above with regard to Farve, one is a moral stand, the other is edging on criminal activity.

i heard this analogy on the radio last night that i thought was actually pretty fitting...

"if your wife thinks you are cheating on you, and she asks to look at your phone, and you slam it on the ground and break it, it doesn't mean you are cheating, but it looks damn bad."

the same can be said for this. it proves nothing but it doesn't look good at all.

that said, it's FAR from being a criminal activity. the analogy with the wife, as well as the nfl investigation, has absolutely nothing to do with the law.

 

[emperus]

It's even easier to dismiss the incriminating texts from the equipment guys and try to blame cold weather.

Again, we are on a technology forum. So, I'm assuming you took basic Physics in College. It is a fact that the ball will deflate due to a decrease in temperature. Are you still arguing that?

 

[SP33Demon]

He doesn't need to. If all non union employees phones were provided AND Brady provided accurate logs of which numbers he texted during the time frame, they can use those non union phones to get logs of BOTH sent and received text messages UNLESS those messages were deleted by those non union employees.

Yes, and you realize what a pain in the ass it would be to subpoena and recover the phones from hundreds of people who Tom has texted a total of 10,000+ times (assuming those phones weren't destroyed as well at Tom's instruction)?

The logical thing for full cooperation in any investigation involving texts is to hand over your phone, especially if you've already consented to having phone company records pulled. Unless you're guilty as fuck.

This is a slam dunk court case for the NFL, Brady needs to drop it so his franchise can move on.

 

[SP33Demon]

let's be real - this would have never made headlines and we wouldn't even be hearing anything about this if it was the bucs and mike glennon that this happened to.

the pats are and always have been (the past decade) "cool to hate" and you are either blind if you haven't noticed this or are lying to yourself.

Question: Did the Patriots admit to and accept a penalty for Spygate?
Question: Have the Tampa Bay Buccaneers ever been accused of cheating?

The defense rests.

 

[smackababy]

Actually, I'd have been OK with him not turning it over. There's tons of reasons he wouldn't want to give that much data to the NFL. Privacy and you can stop there. There's far too much data on smart phones to simply hand over.

Destroying it, however, is very different. Like I said above with regard to Farve, one is a moral stand, the other is edging on criminal activity.

If he was not legally obligated to hand over his phone without a court order (which the NFL can't hand out itself), destroying his phone is meaningless. If the NFL has no jurisdiction to confiscate or obtain Brady's phone due to him being in the player's union, they have no ground. Him destroying the phone after getting a new one actually makes sense in his case. Recovering deleted data on a phone is pretty trivial.

 

[emperus]

Yes, and you realize what a pain in the ass it would be to subpoena and recover the phones from hundreds of people who Tom has texted a total of 10,000+ times (assuming those phones weren't destroyed as well at Tom's instruction)?

The logical thing for full cooperation in any investigation involving texts is to hand over your phone, especially if you've already consented to having phone company records pulled. Unless you're guilty as fuck.

This is a slam dunk court case for the NFL, Brady needs to drop it so his franchise can move on.

1.) They had every phone of every non NFLPA employee (even Belichick's)
2.) No the logical thing for Full Cooperation is to fully cooperate. The NFL doesn't get to decide what that is. If they asked for a full body cavity search for you and your wife. Would u deem that not cooperating?

 

[SP33Demon]

Again, we are on a technology forum. So, I'm assuming you took basic Physics in College. It is a fact that the ball will deflate due to a decrease in temperature. Are you still arguing that?

Poor Pat fans, still clinging to their "science" argument to deflect from Brady's obstruction of justice. BTW you forgot to include equations with avogadro's number, lmao. 6.022x10^23 ftw