"Tom Brady prefer his balls to feel a certain way" - balls underinflated

[Genx87]

Yeah, those things are entirely comparable. You have to be fucking kidding me.

KT

The sad part if possible the NFL would allow Hernandez to play if it made them money. But remember deflating balls destroys the integrity of the game.

 

[emperus]

A load of circumstantial evidence. The league based the discipline on many incriminating but not wholly indictable pieces of evidence, among them some text messages that had one of the Patriots employees call himself “the Deflator.” But as I wrote Monday, Yee and his team will clearly bring up the borderline measurement of the Patriots’ footballs at halftime of the AFC Championship Game Jan. 19. Officials used two gauges at halftime. On page 113 of the Wells report, after a description of the scientific Ideal Gas Law, Wells says that the Patriots footballs should have measured between 11.32 psi and 11.52 psi. The average of all 22 readings was 11.30 psi … two-one-hundredths lower what the Ideal Gas Law would have allowed for balls that started the day at the Patriots’ level of 12.5 psi. The Brady camp will surely argue that this case never should have been brought forth because of how close the Patriots’ footballs were to the minimum level.
A perceived lack of cooperation from Brady and the Patriots—and being misled by Brady. Because Ted Wells, or the NFL’s designated investigative arm, does not have subpoena power, the league will look down upon a person or organization for not cooperating fully in a probe of that team. Clearly, that’s what Goodell ruled here. When Brady wouldn’t turn over his cell phone for forensic examination, that was viewed as a lack of cooperation. When the Patriots would not make assistant equipment manager John Jastremski available for an additional interview at Wells’ request, that was viewed as a lack of cooperation. Vincent’s letter to the Patriots said Brady balked at surrendering his information “despite being offered extraordinary safeguards by the investigators to protect unrelated personal information … It remains significant that the quarterback of the team failed to cooperate fully with the investigation.” Vincent also clearly felt that Brady misled the Wells team “by providing testimony that the report concludes was not plausible and contradicted by other evidence.”
Past offense. In 2007 the team and Belichick were sanctioned a total of $750,000 and docked a first-round draft choice for illegally videotaping coaching signals on the opposing sidelines. “Under the integrity of the game policy,” wrote Vincent, “this prior violation of competitive rules was properly considered in determining the discipline in this case.”

All that and you still haven't answered the question... What evidence meets the standard? Btw 2007 was 8 years ago. Please tell me why that should have any bearing on what is happening in 2015.

Lastly, this is akin to saying we think you jaywalked, but because you didn't give us open access to your phone and emails and because we thought you weren't cooperative for the investigation into whether you jaywalked we are going to throw you in fail for 5 years.

 

[Fingolfin269]

I don't remember seeing a lot of complaints about this before the championship game. The data seems to show that no one has any clue what really happened and the NFL obviously didn't care enough to have firm standards in place to monitor. Either way the numbers look to be really close to the acceptable limits, to the point where this should be a warning at most. And come on guys, how many of you would want to hand your personal cell phone over to your employer?

Of course when you compare the severity of this suspension against similar 'cheating' type suspensions in other leagues it's even more ludicrous. Just a quick google search showed 2 pitchers recently suspended for pine tar, one for 8 games and the other for 10. These are pitchers so probably only missed 2, maybe 3 starts. Either way 10 games is only 6% of an entire baseball season. Brady gets 25% of a season suspension for something not as clear cut as pine tar? Come on man.

(Not a Pats fan, would like to see them go without a win for next 10 years.)

 

[smackababy]

And come on guys, how many of you would want to hand your personal cell phone over to your employer?)

I wouldn't hand it over to anyone without a warrant, and I'd first protest the grounds of said warrant.

 

[Fingolfin269]

Also, and this may have already been posted earlier in the thread, yesterday's MMQB is an interesting read on this:

http://mmqb.si.com/2015/05/11/dante-fowler-jaguars-tom-brady-deflategate-nfl-peter-king/2/

Some excerpts:

Before we get to some real news—the heartbreaking loss of the first defensive player picked in the draft, by a team that desperately needs him—I want to tell you what a lousy cheater (he said tongue-in-cheek) Tom Brady apparently is.

Since the NFL allowed all teams to condition footballs the way they wanted for use in both home and road games in 2006, the idea was that quarterbacks could play with footballs in the same shape for 16 weekends, not eight. (Previously, road quarterbacks played with footballs broken in in whatever way the home team wished.) But road teams do not bring their own ballboys to games. So, if a home-team ballboy was doctoring the footballs in any way before the game, that’s not something that could happen on the road. Brady, of course, is suspected of having the balls doctored for him in the AFC title game, and it’d be naïve to think that this was the first game in which two longtime club employees messed with the footballs for Brady.

But if John Jastremski or Jim McNally have done any funny business with the balls over the past few years, the results sure don’t show it. Some telling numbers for Brady in the nine regular seasons between 2006 and 2014:

Home Games Road Games
Passer Rating 100.2 99.7
Passing Yards per Game 271.8 274.3
TD-to-Interception Differential Plus-96 Plus-96

Wouldn’t you figure that if Brady was getting such an edge by having footballs doctored before home games—and by the simple factor of home-field advantage—that, more probable than not, he’d be markedly better at home?

That’s what you’d figure. And you’d be wrong. I’ll get to more of the confusion on Page 2, after the stunning story of the weekend.

The formatting translated badly on the stat comparison but basically they're equal.

5. As Mike Reiss of ESPN Boston pointed out Sunday, there have been two recent violations regarding fair play with footballs. One happened last November, when TV cameras at the Minnesota-Carolina game in frigid Minneapolis caught footballs being warmed up by sideline heaters. That’s a rules violation, but the teams were simply warned not to do it again. In 2012, the Chargers were found to be using towels with stickum on the sidelines, presumably for players to be able to grip the footballs better. The team was fined $25,000. Is the presumption that Brady was using footballs about 1 pound per square inch under the minimum limit worth a multigame suspension compared to the other two violations? The other two violations were proven. This one is “more probable than not,” according to the Wells report.

6. Officials used two gauges at halftime of the AFC Championship Game to measure the air pressure in 11 New England footballs and four Indianapolis footballs. On page 113 of the Wells report, after a description of the scientific Ideal Gas Law (eyes glaze over), Wells says the Patriots footballs should have measured between 11.32 psi and 11.52 psi. The average of one gauge for the 11 balls was 11.49 psi, on the upper range of what the balls should measure. The average of the other gauge was 11.11 psi, clearly lower than what the balls should have measured. Average all 22 readings, and you get 11.30 … two-one-hundredths lower what the Ideal Gas Law would have allowed for balls that started the day at 12.5 psi. You’re going to suspend someone—never mind a franchise quarterback, never mind without a smoking gun—for an air-pressure measurement of 11.30 when the allowable measurement would have been 11.32?

I know this last one has been discussed and to me is the biggest issue of them all.

1) The measurements are so far off that it shows the NFL can't even get the correct equipment on the field to test this stuff.

2) Even if you take the average of the 2 completely varying spec gauges you're still all over the bottom end of the acceptable range that you're close to a .99999 = 1 argument.

Finally, I'm probably making the same post as someone 10 pages back and if so I apologize. Here take my phone to check for plagiarism.

 

[cabri]

W/ respect to the gauges; Wells wants to use one gauge; yet the ref has stated that he thinks that he used the other gauge.

Again; Wells chooses to cherry pick the information that is beneficial - not an unbiased investigation at all.

 

[Phoenix86]

Please tell me why that should have any bearing on what is happening in 2015.

Because it's the same: organization, front office, head coach, and QB. It's not like they re-stacked the deck between now and then and are holding completely different people responsible for past actions.

 

[TheSlamma]

But remember deflating balls destroys the integrity of the game.

If you think it's easy to hold onto a fully inflated ball when someone is trying to pop it loose and that a ball with less pressure in it doesn't make it easier to hold onto then you fail at physics.

The integrity of the game gets damaged when you lie about the deflation.

Seriously there is too much bias in this thread. Take out all the Pats fans from this thread and it would make for a rational conversation.

 

[emperus]

Because it's the same: organization, front office, head coach, and QB. It's not like they re-stacked the deck between now and then and are holding completely different people responsible for past actions.

So, what length of time would it take for Spygate to no loner be a factor when discussing the Patriots?

 

[The Boston Dangler]

Seriously there is too much bias in this thread. Take out all the Pats fans from this thread and it would make for a rational conversation.

You mean circumstantial like that used to send your tight end to prison?

 

[cabri]

Seriously there is too much bias in this thread. Take out all the Pats fans from this thread and it would make for a rational conversation.

Remove logic and run with emotions :whiste:

 

[Genx87]

If you think it's easy to hold onto a fully inflated ball when someone is trying to pop it loose and that a ball with less pressure in it doesn't make it easier to hold onto then you fail at physics.

The integrity of the game gets damaged when you lie about the deflation.

Seriously there is too much bias in this thread. Take out all the Pats fans from this thread and it would make for a rational conversation.

I never said that. I've played football through college and at a position that handles the ball frequently. I totally understand why a deflated ball is more desired.

But the integrity of this league and the game have been far more damaged from their utter lack of regard for human decency than from a ball being deflated on avg near the lower bound of allowed pressure. So the argument they are doing this to uphold the integrity of the league is laugh out loud funny.

BTW I'm a Packers fan. Could care less about the Pats or Brady. But think the league is out of touch with reality.

 

[KeithTalent]

If you think it's easy to hold onto a fully inflated ball when someone is trying to pop it loose and that a ball with less pressure in it doesn't make it easier to hold onto then you fail at physics.

The integrity of the game gets damaged when you lie about the deflation.

Seriously there is too much bias in this thread. Take out all the Pats fans from this thread and it would make for a rational conversation.

How does that explain the guys who like their balls over-inflated?

I am not a Pats fan, I am a Vikes fan, but I think this whole thing is fucking stupid.

KT

 

[soulcougher73]

If the NFL thought this was actually a big deal then they should change their ball rules. "All balls shall be provided by the NFL for both teams and only the Refs get to see and measure them before play" or something similiar. That would show that the NFL thinks this is a big deal and actually messes with the integrity of the game.

 

[smackababy]

I never said that. I've played football through college and at a position that handles the ball frequently. I totally understand why a deflated ball is more desired.

But the integrity of this league and the game have been far more damaged from their utter lack of regard for human decency than from a ball being deflated on avg near the lower bound of allowed pressure. So the argument they are doing this to uphold the integrity of the league is laugh out loud funny.

BTW I'm a Packers fan. Could care less about the Pats or Brady. But think the league is out of touch with reality.

Exactly. And, if the 11.32 vs 11.30 argument is legitimate, what is the level of expected variance due to the tools and procedures for measuring? Does inserting the device to measure the pressure have the possibility of releasing some air? And how much?

And, how can an organization that has turned a blind eye to the legal "troubles" of so many members of said organization now give a shit about integrity. Their integrity is shot. They showed exactly how much they cared when Ray Rice told them he punched his then girlfriend in the face, knocking her unconscious by suspending him for 2 games. It was only after the negative reaction and outcry from the public (most of which likely don't give a shit about football anyway) that they reacted (in an incredibly stupid way, I might add).

 

[slayer202]

the rules are all based on increasing viewership. not safety, not "integrity," but making sure the game stays popular. why else let the teams prepare their own balls if not to make it easier to play the game, easier to make plays and score points. that's why there was no real oversight that would have caught the under-inflated balls. it was helping the nfl

 

[cabri]

How does that explain the guys who like their balls over-inflated?

I am not a Pats fan, I am a Vikes fan, but I think this whole thing is fucking stupid.

KT

From what I have heard; much depends on the size/strength of the QB hands.

When the refs inflate the balls to/at set pressure allowed; and the QB is unhappy with the pressure; then you would expect that the balls would then get adjusted to the QB preference when possible.

 

[bunnyfubbles]

#1,Gimmie pick, nice runback with a lot of help
#2, guy got lazy and stopped running, thought no one was able to catch him, more dumb than great play.
#3, Basic tackle with a good wrap-up
None of these compares to Butlers pick, to hang on to that ball, at that odd angle was amazing.

 

[lupi]

So, what length of time would it take for Spygate to no loner be a factor when discussing the Patriots?

Probably sometime after the main participants from that event are gone.

 

[Phoenix86]

Also, and this may have already been posted earlier in the thread, yesterday's MMQB is an interesting read on this

No, it's not interesting at all, it's complete shit analysis.

"Wouldn’t you figure that if Brady was getting such an edge by having footballs doctored before home games—and by the simple factor of home-field advantage—that, more probable than not, he’d be markedly better at home?"

When people talk about how you can make number say anything, this is exactly the type of analysis they are talking about. They are extracting conclusions from a very narrow set of data. Forget raising questions, or looking for the cause of the correlation (or lack thereof). Nope, straight to conclusions.

I know this last one has been discussed and to me is the biggest issue of them all.

1) The measurements are so far off that it shows the NFL can't even get the correct equipment on the field to test this stuff.

2) Even if you take the average of the 2 completely varying spec gauges you're still all over the bottom end of the acceptable range that you're close to a .99999 = 1 argument.

Finally, I'm probably making the same post as someone 10 pages back and if so I apologize. Here take my phone to check for plagiarism.

I think there's a decent argument here, but I'll throw this out there. If you're responsible for making sure the pressure is above X why would you aim exactly for X and not X+10% or whatever. If they weren't aiming for an illegal level of pressure, they were certainly aiming for the lowest possible.

If you want to claim .9999 of acceptable, fine, I'll say they should have accounted for a +/- difference. If they did that, and the balls came in low, they would still have enough to pass the minimum.

 

[slayer202]

it's pretty funny to go back and watch that belichick press conference. it was hilarious back then, and now I don't even know how to describe it

 

[Phoenix86]

So, what length of time would it take for Spygate to no loner be a factor when discussing the Patriots?

That was a really simple sentence and you didn't seem to comprehend any of it. I'll repeat it, see if you can figure out the answer to your own question.

I'll highlight the important part.

Because it's the same: organization, front office, head coach, and QB.

Given that statement, what do you think is required to change?

 

[smackababy]

I think there's a decent argument here, but I'll throw this out there. If you're responsible for making sure the pressure is above X why would you aim exactly for X and not X+10% or whatever. If they weren't aiming for an illegal level of pressure, they were certainly aiming for the lowest possible.

If you want to claim .9999 of acceptable, fine, I'll say they should have accounted for a +/- difference. If they did that, and the balls came in low, they would still have enough to pass the minimum.

Because, we are talking about competition here. That is like saying "well, if the minimum weight in F1 is 1,150 lbs, why not just get a car with 1,155 instead of shooting for 1,150 exactly! Because, that extra weight might end up being the different in fractions of a second, which might be the difference in winning.

If the NFL really cared about this, they wouldn't let teams handle or prep their own balls. Simple as that. They only care about this because it became news and everyone hates the Patriots. If the Jags happen to have 11.30 PSI in their footballs instead of 11.32, not a single fuck would be given.

 

[rudeguy]

Because, we are talking about competition here. That is like saying "well, if the minimum weight in F1 is 1,150 lbs, why not just get a car with 1,155 instead of shooting for 1,150 exactly! Because, that extra weight might end up being the different in fractions of a second, which might be the difference in winning.

If the NFL really cared about this, they wouldn't let teams handle or prep their own balls. Simple as that. They only care about this because it became news and everyone hates the Patriots. If the Jags happen to have 11.30 PSI in their footballs instead of 11.32, not a single fuck would be given.

Or you know....because they won't tolerate cheating.

PS:

Fuck Brady

 

[TheSlamma]

I never said that. I've played football through college and at a position that handles the ball frequently. I totally understand why a deflated ball is more desired.

But the integrity of this league and the game have been far more damaged from their utter lack of regard for human decency than from a ball being deflated on avg near the lower bound of allowed pressure. So the argument they are doing this to uphold the integrity of the league is laugh out loud funny.

BTW I'm a Packers fan. Could care less about the Pats or Brady. But think the league is out of touch with reality.

He lied about it. Again that is the integrity piece. You guys are not big picture thinkers at all.. get off the air pressure as being the only thing.