Tom Brady is to QB's as Terrel Davis is to RB's

[Tom]

Montana isn't the greatest QB because of the games when the system worked.

He's the greatest QB because of the games when the system fell apart, or was defeated, but he refused to lose.


edit- as Torpid said above. :thumbsup: but I didn't see his post before I posted..

 

[Phokus]

Originally posted by: Tom
Montana isn't the greatest QB because of the games when the system worked.

He's the greatest QB because of the games when the system fell apart, or was defeated, but he refused to lose.

Same goes for brady. Brady carried the pats to victory on his own shoulders when the defense played like crap for both superbowls 38 and 39... he also led the game winning drive in superbowl 36.

 

[BlancoNino]

There is 1 QB that cannot be argued with. John Elway. The guy never had a great team around him (until his last 2 years) but he still managed to get them into the playoff and play in superbowls. Best QB ever.

 

[z42]

Originally posted by: BlancoNino
There is 1 QB that cannot be argued with. John Elway. The guy never had a great team around him (until his last 2 years) but he still managed to get them into the playoff and play in superbowls. Best QB ever.

You're kidding right? I know you are too young to have seen his career, but he was very mediocre during most of his career. He was what Brett Favre has become; a guy with a great arm who is not very accurate and makes some poor decisions. Elway had a GREAT team around him when he won his 2 superbowls. He had a pretty good team around him his whole career. Elway woudn't sniff my top 10 list. He didn't accomplish anything until the offensive line and running game became Dominant.

 

[Tom]

Originally posted by: z42

Originally posted by: BlancoNino
There is 1 QB that cannot be argued with. John Elway. The guy never had a great team around him (until his last 2 years) but he still managed to get them into the playoff and play in superbowls. Best QB ever.

You're kidding right? I know you are too young to have seen his career, but he was very mediocre during most of his career. He was what Brett Favre has become; a guy with a great arm who is not very accurate and makes some poor decisions. Elway had a GREAT team around him when he won his 2 superbowls. He had a pretty good team around him his whole career. Elway woudn't sniff my top 10 list. He didn't accomplish anything until the offensive line and running game became Dominant.

I saw Elway's entire career. I'd like you to give us the actual years when Elway was "mediocre"...

My recollection is he was in the top 3 rated quarterbacks virtually every year of his career.

That doesn't make hime the greatest QB ever, but it isn't "mediocre."

 

[BlancoNino]

Originally posted by: z42

Originally posted by: BlancoNino
There is 1 QB that cannot be argued with. John Elway. The guy never had a great team around him (until his last 2 years) but he still managed to get them into the playoff and play in superbowls. Best QB ever.

You're kidding right? I know you are too young to have seen his career, but he was very mediocre during most of his career. He was what Brett Favre has become; a guy with a great arm who is not very accurate and makes some poor decisions. Elway had a GREAT team around him when he won his 2 superbowls. He had a pretty good team around him his whole career. Elway woudn't sniff my top 10 list. He didn't accomplish anything until the offensive line and running game became Dominant.

Um are you kidding me? Did you ever seen his "drives" when his crappy defense kept allowing touchdowns in his early career? Did you ever see how many times he was sacked (crappy o-line) but still made it to superbowls? The team was ALL HIM, and he took them to superbowls. End of story.

 

[z42]

Originally posted by: Tom

Originally posted by: z42

Originally posted by: BlancoNino
There is 1 QB that cannot be argued with. John Elway. The guy never had a great team around him (until his last 2 years) but he still managed to get them into the playoff and play in superbowls. Best QB ever.

You're kidding right? I know you are too young to have seen his career, but he was very mediocre during most of his career. He was what Brett Favre has become; a guy with a great arm who is not very accurate and makes some poor decisions. Elway had a GREAT team around him when he won his 2 superbowls. He had a pretty good team around him his whole career. Elway woudn't sniff my top 10 list. He didn't accomplish anything until the offensive line and running game became Dominant.

I saw Elway's entire career. I'd like you to give us the actual years when Elway was "mediocre"...

My recollection is he was in the top 3 rated quarterbacks virtually every year of his career.

That doesn't make hime the greatest QB ever, but it isn't "mediocre."

I'd be glad to. Here's a link to his career stats
http://www.databasefootball.com/players/playerpage.htm?ilkid=ELWAYJOH01
http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/ElwaJo00.htm

As you can see, his last 6 years were very, very good. His first 10 years were not. during his first 10 seasons his "greatness" resulted in 158 TDs and 157 INTs. His highest completion % during those 10 years was 58% and his highest passer rating was 83 with an average near 75.

During the 86, 87 and 89 superbowls, he threw for a whopping 2 TDs and 6 Int's, going 46/101 passing. He did rack up 669 yards as his teams were way behind because of all the INTs.

The last 6 years he played he was spectacular. His TD to Int ratio went way, way up along with his completion % and his passer rating. I attribute a lot of that to Shanahan coming aboard and establishing the running game so that teams couldn't constantly sit in passing lanes. But Elway did play great for 6 years.

Of course, if you want to talk about winning the 2 superbowls, he played just as bad in the 2 that he won as the 3 that he lost.

I'm not saying that he was terrible, or that he was mediocre. If you look at his career as a whole, I think it's borderline HOF stuff. But to say he is even close to the greatest is just buying into the hype surrounding his last 4-6 years playing. Denver was always a very good team; most analysts in the late 80s were of the opinion that Elway was part of the reason they lost in big games and not the reason they got there. That did change in the mid 90s, and I give him a lot of credit for working hard to improve his game.

 

[z42]

Originally posted by: BlancoNino

Originally posted by: z42

Originally posted by: BlancoNino
There is 1 QB that cannot be argued with. John Elway. The guy never had a great team around him (until his last 2 years) but he still managed to get them into the playoff and play in superbowls. Best QB ever.

You're kidding right? I know you are too young to have seen his career, but he was very mediocre during most of his career. He was what Brett Favre has become; a guy with a great arm who is not very accurate and makes some poor decisions. Elway had a GREAT team around him when he won his 2 superbowls. He had a pretty good team around him his whole career. Elway woudn't sniff my top 10 list. He didn't accomplish anything until the offensive line and running game became Dominant.

Um are you kidding me? Did you ever seen his "drives" when his crappy defense kept allowing touchdowns in his early career? Did you ever see how many times he was sacked (crappy o-line) but still made it to superbowls? The team was ALL HIM, and he took them to superbowls. End of story.

Actually, Denver had the BEST defense in the league 3 years in Elway's first 10 seasons. The team was far from being ALL HIM.

http://www.nfl.com/history/leaders/fewestpointsallowed

1984, 1989, 1991

Edit: check out www.denverbroncos.com and look at the highlights for the 80s and 90s. Players being named defensive player of the year. Mecklenberg in his prime. They were a very good team. Living in the Bay area and having all my family as Raider fans I would love it when the Broncos came to town to kick their butts so I could rub it in.

I have no hate for Elway; he was a very good QB and deserved to get into the HOF. I just can't buy into all the hype about how he is one of the greatest of all time. People in the NFL felt sorry for him for choking during 3 Superbowls and were happy for him when he won 2 in his later years. I was too. That doesn't make him the greatest of all time; it makes him a great player who was fortunate to have a chance at redemption (he was a big factor in getting that chance I agree). If you took a poll in 1992 (after his 10th year in the league) people would have ranked him about 10th in the league and laughed if you mentioned the HOF.

 

[nycxandy]

Well put z42.

 

[BlancoNino]

Originally posted by: z42

Originally posted by: BlancoNino

Originally posted by: z42

Originally posted by: BlancoNino
There is 1 QB that cannot be argued with. John Elway. The guy never had a great team around him (until his last 2 years) but he still managed to get them into the playoff and play in superbowls. Best QB ever.

You're kidding right? I know you are too young to have seen his career, but he was very mediocre during most of his career. He was what Brett Favre has become; a guy with a great arm who is not very accurate and makes some poor decisions. Elway had a GREAT team around him when he won his 2 superbowls. He had a pretty good team around him his whole career. Elway woudn't sniff my top 10 list. He didn't accomplish anything until the offensive line and running game became Dominant.

Um are you kidding me? Did you ever seen his "drives" when his crappy defense kept allowing touchdowns in his early career? Did you ever see how many times he was sacked (crappy o-line) but still made it to superbowls? The team was ALL HIM, and he took them to superbowls. End of story.

Actually, Denver had the BEST defense in the league 3 years in Elway's first 10 seasons. The team was far from being ALL HIM.

http://www.nfl.com/history/leaders/fewestpointsallowed

1984, 1989, 1991

Edit: check out www.denverbroncos.com and look at the highlights for the 80s and 90s. Players being named defensive player of the year. Mecklenberg in his prime. They were a very good team. Living in the Bay area and having all my family as Raider fans I would love it when the Broncos came to town to kick their butts so I could rub it in.

I have no hate for Elway; he was a very good QB and deserved to get into the HOF. I just can't buy into all the hype about how he is one of the greatest of all time. People in the NFL felt sorry for him for choking during 3 Superbowls and were happy for him when he won 2 in his later years. I was too. That doesn't make him the greatest of all time; it makes him a great player who was fortunate to have a chance at redemption (he was a big factor in getting that chance I agree). If you took a poll in 1992 (after his 10th year in the league) people would have ranked him about 10th in the league and laughed if you mentioned the HOF.

So how can you argue that Elway, being the most SACKED QB OF ALL TIME (which equals crappy protection) can put up the numbers he did? How good were his recievers? How good was his running game? Not very...mediocre at best...it was all him on offense.

 

[TheSlamma]

I loved when he about cried at the Broncos game last year... it almost brought tears of happiness to me

 

[z42]

So how can you argue that Elway, being the most SACKED QB OF ALL TIME (which equals crappy protection) can put up the numbers he did? How good were his recievers? How good was his running game? Not very...mediocre at best...it was all him on offense.

It's hard to explain sometimes when you are just looking at stats as opposed to watching them play. When Elway was younger he was like a slower, less athletic Michael Vick. Whenever he felt pressure his first instinct was to tuck the ball and run. This amounts to a lot of rushing yards (for a QB) which you will also see that he had, a lot of rushes/carries, and a lot of sacks when he lost yards. I'm not saying he had a line like Aikman did in Dallas, not by any means, but the sack #s are inflated a little.

I would say his receivers were pretty good; of course you could also attribute that to Elway throwing them the ball. Billy "white shoes" Johnson and some other guys were very productive. Their running game wasn't very good I will agree.

You're still missing my point. He put up bad #s his first 10 years. I am already on record saying that he was spectacular his last 6 years. Of course, those years also coincided with Denver having the best rushing attack in the NFL.

 

[PlatinumGold]

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: PlatinumGold

Originally posted by: NeoV
I could not disagree more Pgold.

What "system" do the Patriots use that is exactly QB friendly?

Of their 3 super bowl championship teams, only 1 had a good RB (Dillon), and none of the 3 had anything more than an average group of WR's and TE's.

I agree that Terrell Davis was largely a byproduct of the Bronco's gameplan, but he was also clearly the best of the backs that have gone through that system.

when have you NOT disagreed with me about sports?

Well we all know that you fancy yourself as some kind of expert so if you were to quit now you could be accurately compared to Dennis Miller during his Monday Night Football tenure.

EXPERT? no, opinionated yes.

since when has it been a crime to have an opinion on sports?

 

[z42]

Originally posted by: PlatinumGold
spectacular for a short period of time but many other players could achieve similar results because of the system they are in.

discuss.

Sorry for the thread hijack PlatinumGold

I think both players are very good, but I would say Brady is not as replaceable as Davis was. I guess if Brady ever gets injured we can see if his replacement plays just as well or not, but I think the guy is very clutch when it counts and has a great understanding of the game. I would agree that coaching and the system play a part in any player's success, but Brady is one of the best decision makers out there right now, and he's also very accurate.

 

[PlatinumGold]

Originally posted by: z42

Originally posted by: PlatinumGold
spectacular for a short period of time but many other players could achieve similar results because of the system they are in.

discuss.

Sorry for the thread hijack PlatinumGold

I think both players are very good, but I would say Brady is not as replaceable as Davis was. I guess if Brady ever gets injured we can see if his replacement plays just as well or not, but I think the guy is very clutch when it counts and has a great understanding of the game. I would agree that coaching and the system play a part in any player's success, but Brady is one of the best decision makers out there right now, and he's also very accurate.

mb.

i still think in the first SB they won, NE could have won with Bledsoe starting instead of Brady, so there i think brady was replaceable.

other than that, i don't know could someone else have done as well as brady last year (for example?) mb not. i think last year may have been one of his better years.

a better comparison for brady might be jeter and not TD.