To those saying there isn't a big gear gap in WoW and that it doesn't make a difference in PvP...

[CKent]

Originally posted by: cKGunslinger

Originally posted by: ggnl
I can't watch the video at work What does it show?

Im guessing it either a warlock doing 4k shadowbolt crits, a trinket mage 1 shotting people, or a warrior doing...well pretty much everything warriors do is impressive once they get all epic gear.

Shaman doing this chain lighting thing. Some 3-4 crits, mostly 1.5-2k. All against preoccupied players (world PvP) or while in a group (BGs) with support. Heavily mixed and edited to only show crits.

ZOMG! Nerf MovieMaker! :laugh:

Buff VirtualDub!!!

Seriously though, video editing isn't what makes that shaman seem powerful. It's the gear.

 

[cKGunslinger]

Originally posted by: RBachman

Originally posted by: cKGunslinger

Originally posted by: ggnl
I can't watch the video at work What does it show?

Im guessing it either a warlock doing 4k shadowbolt crits, a trinket mage 1 shotting people, or a warrior doing...well pretty much everything warriors do is impressive once they get all epic gear.

Shaman doing this chain lighting thing. Some 3-4 crits, mostly 1.5-2k. All against preoccupied players (world PvP) or while in a group (BGs) with support. Heavily mixed and edited to only show crits.

ZOMG! Nerf MovieMaker! :laugh:

Buff VirtualDub!!!

Seriously though, video editing isn't what makes that shaman seem powerful. It's the gear.

You have no idea what his stats are. He may have very well set himself up as a glass cannon - he could be 2-shotted by any player in decent gear. So maybe he can kill a single player before he's killed himself in an even matchup. Big deal. All this is even assuming he's playing on a normal, Blizzard server, and not on his buddy's private server with funky settings and "tweaked" items (unlikely, but certainly not impossible.)

And even if everything is on the up-and-up, if I had the HD space, I could easily splice some clips together to make it look as if I'm some sort of invulnerable killing machine. I've hit some ~2.4k crits with aimed shot, sometimes 3-4 in a row. Me and Pally once defended the Mine in AB from a group of 5 Horde attackers, solely due to crits. A video of that would have make me look like a God in Epic, whereas I mostly paniced and button mashed in my blue DM gear while getting good heals.

 

[ggnl]

Originally posted by: cKGunslinger

Originally posted by: ggnl
I can't watch the video at work What does it show?

Im guessing it either a warlock doing 4k shadowbolt crits, a trinket mage 1 shotting people, or a warrior doing...well pretty much everything warriors do is impressive once they get all epic gear.

Shaman doing this chain lighting thing. Some 3-4 crits, mostly 1.5-2k. All against preoccupied players (world PvP) or while in a group (BGs) with support. Heavily mixed and edited to only show crits.

ZOMG! Nerf MovieMaker! :laugh:

Well...

I won't go into too much detail because I don't know what exactly the video is showing, but for comparison:

My shaman has all blue gear, including about +70 spell damage stuff. I currently have 31 points in elemental talents, including elemental mastery (which guarantees a crit on all 3 chain lightning targets, 5 minute cooldown), and 2 points in improved CL (+10% CL damage IIRC).

I never break 1.3k damage on my primary CL target.

So 1.5k damage is 15% increase over my max. 2k damage is roughly 55% increase over my max. I'd assume the 2k crits are the effect of some kind of trinket, so Ill ignore them for now.

Also, compared to the Tier 0 shaman set, the Tier 1 set give you about 600 more mp and hp, and the Tier 2 set gives roughly 700 mp and hp. Based on my current stats that would be about 20% improvement in hp and a 15% improvement in mp. Not to mention all the built in spell resists.

Sooo...I'd calculate a raid equipped shaman to be about 20% "better" than the best equipped non-raid shaman. Other more gear dependent classes are going to see a bigger disparity. Shamans seem to be kind of an anomaly because they improvements they get from better gear tend to be evenly divided between spell damage, melee damage, and healing ability. For warlocks and mages that can get +400-600 spell damage off their gear, the difference in damage is much more pronounced.

Is it unbalancing in pvp? Of course it is. Do they deserve it for putting in the time and effort to get that good gear? I guess that's open for debate. I tend to think that the gear gap is warranted. It keeps people interested in the game.

The only thing that bothered me was the lack of any other options for alternative advancement. They had a chance to fix the situation with the pvp honor system, but they instead implemented a system that very very few people actually use to to get raid quality gear. The AV grind kept people occupied for a while, but once that's finished what is there left to do in terms of character advancement besides raiding? Unfortunately, Blizz seemingly bowed to pressure that the AV rewards were too easy to get and made the AB rewards stupidly hard to obtain. I never quite figured out what to do, so I just started playing alts with the occasional weekend ZG run mixed in.

Anyways, there was a big post by a Blizz dev stickied recently in the official forums that acknowledged the frustration of casual players. Shortly thereafter, they announced the new armor sets that are going in in 1.10. Assuming that they don't screw up the implementation somehow, this will probably be enough to keep me satisfied, hopefully until the expansion comes out. If not, I've always got more alts to play.

 

[TGS]

RB,

Gear for the semi-casuals

Solo epic/rare sets. With the best parts being in UBRS.

 

[MarkW]

http://wow.allakhazam.com/profile.html?597497

there is his gear if anyone wants to look at it.

 

[CKent]

Originally posted by: cKGunslinger
You have no idea what his stats are. He may have very well set himself up as a glass cannon - he could be 2-shotted by any player in decent gear. So maybe he can kill a single player before he's killed himself in an even matchup. Big deal. All this is even assuming he's playing on a normal, Blizzard server, and not on his buddy's private server with funky settings and "tweaked" items (unlikely, but certainly not impossible.)

And even if everything is on the up-and-up, if I had the HD space, I could easily splice some clips together to make it look as if I'm some sort of invulnerable killing machine. I've hit some ~2.4k crits with aimed shot, sometimes 3-4 in a row. Me and Pally once defended the Mine in AB from a group of 5 Horde attackers, solely due to crits. A video of that would have make me look like a God in Epic, whereas I mostly paniced and button mashed in my blue DM gear while getting good heals.

No, it's MC/BWL gear with maybe a smattering of ZG & world dragons/kazzak thrown in. Best of both worlds - huge ac/hp/sta, huge +spell damage (not to mention the mana regen, +healing, spell crits, some melee crit & dodge as well, the resists, the attack power...). Link. I could wear a suit of mail armor "of nature's wrath", thus turning myself into a paper tiger, and still be lucky to hit 2k at the very most, probably average 1600-1700.

 

[cKGunslinger]

Originally posted by: MarkW

http://wow.allakhazam.com/profile.html?597497

there is his gear if anyone wants to look at it.

Wow, he has more than 2x the armor I have. And 2x the Mana, with almost the same amount of health. He certainly isn't the "glass cannon" I thought he might be.

Regardless, it still doesn't negate my enjoyment of the game or make my time and abilities seem any less worthwhile, and certainly not futile.

 

[MarkW]

Originally posted by: cKGunslinger

Originally posted by: MarkW

http://wow.allakhazam.com/profile.html?597497

there is his gear if anyone wants to look at it.

Wow, he has more than 2x the armor I have. And 2x the Mana, with almost the same amount of health. He certainly isn't the "glass cannon" I thought he might be.

Regardless, it still doesn't negate my enjoyment of the game or make my time and abilities seem any less worthwhile, and certainly not futile.

Well.. his shield IS almost 3k armor..

 

[CKent]

Originally posted by: cKGunslinger

Originally posted by: MarkW

http://wow.allakhazam.com/profile.html?597497

there is his gear if anyone wants to look at it.

Wow, he has more than 2x the armor I have. And 2x the Mana, with almost the same amount of health. He certainly isn't the "glass cannon" I thought he might be.

Regardless, it still doesn't negate my enjoyment of the game or make my time and abilities seem any less worthwhile, and certainly not futile.

If it doesn't bother you, you must not do many BGs against players equipped like that. They're essentially as strong as two blue-geared players.

 

[cKGunslinger]

Originally posted by: MarkW

Well.. his shield IS almost 3k armor..

Oh yeah, I forgot that shammy's get a shield.

Originally posted by: RBachman

Originally posted by: cKGunslinger

Originally posted by: MarkW

http://wow.allakhazam.com/profile.html?597497

there is his gear if anyone wants to look at it.

Wow, he has more than 2x the armor I have. And 2x the Mana, with almost the same amount of health. He certainly isn't the "glass cannon" I thought he might be.

Regardless, it still doesn't negate my enjoyment of the game or make my time and abilities seem any less worthwhile, and certainly not futile.

If it doesn't bother you, you must not do many BGs against players equipped like that. They're essentially as strong as two blue-geared players.

Wow, deja-vu. I've argued many times (with you, in fact) that I've have done BGs against epic-geared guilds on numerous occasions, and yes, they are tough and usually beat us, but they are not impossible by any stretch of the imagination. And their gear certainly does not detract from my voluntary PvP experience and enjoyment.

What I don't understand (and probably never will) is why you, who has spoken out repeatedly against all PvP action as a mere mechanism to keep the childish, "l33t" kiddies busy, cares so damn much about this "enormous" gear gap. Like many others, you only care about PvE, yet all your arguments are PvP-based. Talk about you logical fallacies.

 

[CKent]

Originally posted by: cKGunslinger

Originally posted by: MarkW

Well.. his shield IS almost 3k armor..

Oh yeah, I forgot that shammy's get a shield.

Originally posted by: RBachman

Originally posted by: cKGunslinger

Originally posted by: MarkW

http://wow.allakhazam.com/profile.html?597497

there is his gear if anyone wants to look at it.

Wow, he has more than 2x the armor I have. And 2x the Mana, with almost the same amount of health. He certainly isn't the "glass cannon" I thought he might be.

Regardless, it still doesn't negate my enjoyment of the game or make my time and abilities seem any less worthwhile, and certainly not futile.

If it doesn't bother you, you must not do many BGs against players equipped like that. They're essentially as strong as two blue-geared players.

Wow, deja-vu. I've argued many times (with you, in fact) that I've have done BGs against epic-geared guilds on numerous occasions, and yes, they are tough and usually beat us, but they are not impossible by any stretch of the imagination. And their gear certainly does not detract from my voluntary PvP experience and enjoyment.

What I don't understand (and probably never will) is why you, who has spoken out repeatedly against all PvP action as a mere mechanism to keep the childish, "l33t" kiddies busy, cares so damn much about this "enormous" gear gap. Like many others, you only care about PvE, yet all your arguments are PvP-based. Talk about you logical fallacies.

A few friends who had quit have returned, and rather than quit again (they say current EQ is even worse) they've taken an interest in PvP. As MMORPGs are social games (it's sorta the whole point, y'know?) I've done a bit of PvP myself just to have some common ground to yak on with them, and in doing so I've seen firsthand how enormous the difference the gear gap makes is.

 

[cKGunslinger]

Originally posted by: RBachman

A few friends who had quit have returned, and rather than quit again (they say current EQ is even worse) they've taken an interest in PvP. As MMORPGs are social games (it's sorta the whole point, y'know?) I've done a bit of PvP myself just to have some common ground to yak on with them, and in doing so I've seen firsthand how enormous the difference the gear gap makes is.

I'm sure this subject is probably futile and has definitely been beaten to death, but I'm just curious about how people would suggest it be modified. I mean, for example, let me give the "typical" MMORPG progression pattern.

MMORPG Timeline (as I see it)

1) MMORPG is released. Players sign up. Some level fast, some level slow. People are happy.

2) A few weeks/months later, the heavy players hit level cap (60) and begin High-end content. Many other are still enjoying the mid-level content. New players continue to join.

3) Heavy player have now regulated High-end content to farming mode. Patterns are learned and instances are run, no longer for fun, but for equipment (level X) Other just begin to hit 60. Many others are still enjoying the mid-level content. New players continue to join.

4) Discontent rises. Heavy players are now bored with nothing to really do. Some quit. Others players make a few high runs to get a few pieces of level X equipment. Others just begin to hit 60. Many others are still enjoying the mid-level content. New players continue to join.

5) In an effort to appease the growing "bored" players, the developers releases some new content, with additional "level X" equipment to be won. Heavy players quickly run it a few times for fun, then realize that that there is no better equipment to be had and thus become bored again. Others make a few high runs to get a few pieces of level X equipment. Other just begin to hit 60. Many others are still enjoying the mid-level content. New players continue to join.

6) The developers, realizing that the population has massively shifted towards level cap and are running out of things to do, finally release more High-end content, but in order to keep paying players online, they add some X+1 loot to be had. Heavy players rejoice, having something to do for weeks/months again. Others make a few high runs to get a few pieces of level X equipment. Other just begin to hit 60. Many others are still enjoying the mid-level content. New players continue to join.

7) X+1 equipment is now being farmed. Heavy players become bored again. Others make a few high runs to get a few pieces of level X and X+1 equipment. Other just begin to hit 60. Many others are still enjoying the mid-level content. New players continue to join.

8) The cycle repeats...

9) Now heavy players have farmed the X+5 equipment from the high-end instances. The rest of the 60s have smatterings of X, X+1, through X+5 equipment, based on their play style. Others just begin to hit 60. Many others are still enjoying the mid-level content. New players continue to join.

10) Uh-oh. Some the X+5 equipped players decide to run some Battergrounds. They match up against some new 60s in green, blue, and X level gear. They steamroll the other team due to several factors.

- a) They have better gear
- b) They are better organized (they had to be, in order to get better gear)
- c) They have more play experience (due to the vast amounts of grinding to get better gear)

11) Losing players whine that X+5 gear is too powerful and is "unfair" to them. Some say that even X+4 gear is too much. Some say X+3.

12) ?

13) Profit!

So, to those who find themselves at step 11, I ask this. At what point did the "mistake" happen? At which point would you, as the developer, done something different, and what would that have been? How would have both kept bored "uber" players from leaving the game as well as appeased those who will probably never get a chance to roll on a single piece of X+1 gear?

 

[CKent]

That's not an MMORPG timeline, it's what you've seen in a game or two, and caused by corporate greed & dev incompetence, at least for EQ. It needn't be that way.

 

[TGS]

How is that any different than the 10-19, 20-29 BG twinks? Can the casuals compete with rogues that have almost 1500hp, crusader and lifestealing? Not a chance. I even with a 60 with a few epics (picked up benediction last night, woot) tend to avoid 10-19 BGs. Especially WSG, seems to have at least 1-2 completely blue, with outrageous enchants costing more than I've spent in my entire time from 1-60. Honestly if you think that anyone other than an ebayer, or a full funded 60 alt can compete with those folk you are sorely mistaken.

Now the great thing is, not how 1vs1 is structured (as anyone can figure out a way to dominate another player therefore giving the illusion of imbalance) is the group combat system is fairly close to balanced.

When you compare apples to apples, you have to take an equally geared opponent to see if the fight will be close. WoW is a gear based game, certainly talents improve the overall effect of skills but the base gear makes all the difference in the world. Would you think that a green geared opponent would easily beat you in all whites? I would imagine so. The same scenario for greens versus blues? Probably. Blues versus epics? Most likely. It's the progression aspect of the game. If all you do is grind in the open, chances are the most blue you will ever see will be a random world drop. You gear will most likely stink overall compared to those just running instances. Now take that line of thinking and apply it to those just running instances. The most epics they will likely see are a few world drops, and *maybe* a few epic boss drops later. the people running raids get the elevated chance for an epic. Just like the person running instances get an elevated chance to get rares.

Just because you run MC>BWL>ZG>Ony doesn't even guarantee you will get epics at all. It just greatly raises the chances you have to either bid or roll on them. That's if your guild/raid can take down the bosses that drop the gear you want.

Now, if a casual just played BGs they would have a fairly decent chance at pvp centered rares, along with a slim chance at getting class epic gear. Though from what I see few "epic" sets are the premiere choice for pvp. If anyone wanted to join in a ZG or world boss fight, it's not really out of the reach of everyone. I joined my current guild, as they were asking for people to join their "Pug" MC run. I picked up two epics, and we sorted out people who wanted to join the core guild. The entire "run" didn't even kill a boss the first attempt. I picked up a boe epic, that run though. The second run we got to magmadar and I picked up prophecy pants. Both runs took about an hour and a half, each. So if the raid is done to accommodate people, it can be done in the same time as an UBRS run though with epics instead of rares dropping. Raiding seems to be made out to take 5+ hours. Though unless it's a domo> rag push (which we were able to do last week) typically MC runs are 1.5-2 hours. Long, but not beyond the time spent watching a movie.

 

[Smilin]

Originally posted by: cKGunslinger
?? I never claimed to have seen such thing as a rogue "vanish." In fact, I never mentioned "vanish" at all. I was talking about the ability, on approach, to stealth or whatever the move is, then pop up behind someone and knife them. It's not over-powered at all, as there are ways to prevent it. Same thing with my "feign + trap." It's a nifty move if you pull it off, but it is easily counterable by DOTs, etc.

And no, in "melee" you are not exactly helpless, unless you decided to melee a warrior in plate (which is probalby a poor idea, if you are traveling alone.) Mages, priests, warlocks, hunters, etc are all considerably weaker than you in had-to-hand combat. If you managed to get the drop on one of these classes and ran through your front-end DPS combo points, you still have the ability to finish them with melee attacks once they are un-stunned. I don't think my Hunter's 96 strength with dual-wielded axes, standing there at 30% health is going to intimate any decent rogue.

Rogues are the only melee class that wears leather. Yes this makes you pretty helpless. Once out of stealth you are a melee class in leather! You suffer the same limitations that other melee classes do against ranged classes but don't share the advantage of being "tough" up close. The solution of course is not to stand toe-to-toe with any other melee class but use stealth to offset this. The problem is there are just too many things "broken" about stealth.

You can hold your own but not "dominate anyone else with equal gear?" Well join the club! It's called balance. You shouldn't be able to dominate anyone. You should be able to gain a tactical advantage by using your class abilities to get the drop on someone, but not dominate anyone and everyone you run across. That would be pointless and boring.

Right. I can't dominate someone in equal gear (as it should be) BUT they CAN dominate me. Put a warrior in epic armor with an epic weapon up against a rogue in epic armor and an epic weapon and the rogue will get owned. Put them both in equal blues and it will be a fair fight. Why? Because our damage output simply doesn't correlate to our gear but a warrior's will. It used to be balanced when the game was first released but no longer is.

The only thing sillier than a Rogue complaing about having to melee in leather, is a Hunter complaining about having a dead zone. It's an inherent, designed weakness meant to be exploited by other classes, not an oversight or bug that is accidentally preventing you from being all-powerful.

I'm not complaining about melee in leather (yes, that would be silly) I'm complaining that:
1. My epic weapon doesn't do squat against epic armor because of the way damage from my skills is calculated.
2. My fighting melee in leather is supposed to be offset by my stealth but in reality it's broken.

The video in this post is loosly related to my complaint #1 above. The shaman is clearly doing tons of damage due to his epic gear. However, If I were to get epic gear twice as good as his my damage would not really increase. It's a bad flaw that has gotten worse with every patch. IMHO a 60 rogue in tier 2 gear should be able to pull a 3k coldblood eviscerate. Instead he does the same damage as a 60 rogue in greens! I hope you guys can understand how this is frustrating! There are plenty of other flaws in the game that probably affect you as well but please acknowledge that this is an issue.

 

[CKent]

There's no question rogues have been gimped. We were strong, maybe a bit too much so, in PvP at release. When Blizzard realized people liked PvP way more than expected and started to balance the game based on it, they really went overboard. Whining on the boards about rogue gankers and chinese farmers didn't help.

Originally posted by: Smilin
IMHO a 60 rogue in tier 2 gear should be able to pull a 3k coldblood eviscerate.

Why tier 2? Nightslayer is better than Bloodfang in almost all cases. Rogues are the only class for whom the tier 2 set isn't a (huge) upgrade.

 

[TGS]

Originally posted by: Smilin

Originally posted by: cKGunslinger
?? I never claimed to have seen such thing as a rogue "vanish." In fact, I never mentioned "vanish" at all. I was talking about the ability, on approach, to stealth or whatever the move is, then pop up behind someone and knife them. It's not over-powered at all, as there are ways to prevent it. Same thing with my "feign + trap." It's a nifty move if you pull it off, but it is easily counterable by DOTs, etc.

And no, in "melee" you are not exactly helpless, unless you decided to melee a warrior in plate (which is probalby a poor idea, if you are traveling alone.) Mages, priests, warlocks, hunters, etc are all considerably weaker than you in had-to-hand combat. If you managed to get the drop on one of these classes and ran through your front-end DPS combo points, you still have the ability to finish them with melee attacks once they are un-stunned. I don't think my Hunter's 96 strength with dual-wielded axes, standing there at 30% health is going to intimate any decent rogue.

Rogues are the only melee class that wears leather. Yes this makes you pretty helpless. Once out of stealth you are a melee class in leather! You suffer the same limitations that other melee classes do against ranged classes but don't share the advantage of being "tough" up close. The solution of course is not to stand toe-to-toe with any other melee class but use stealth to offset this. The problem is there are just too many things "broken" about stealth.

You can hold your own but not "dominate anyone else with equal gear?" Well join the club! It's called balance. You shouldn't be able to dominate anyone. You should be able to gain a tactical advantage by using your class abilities to get the drop on someone, but not dominate anyone and everyone you run across. That would be pointless and boring.

Right. I can't dominate someone in equal gear (as it should be) BUT they CAN dominate me. Put a warrior in epic armor with an epic weapon up against a rogue in epic armor and an epic weapon and the rogue will get owned. Put them both in equal blues and it will be a fair fight. Why? Because our damage output simply doesn't correlate to our gear but a warrior's will. It used to be balanced when the game was first released but no longer is.

The only thing sillier than a Rogue complaing about having to melee in leather, is a Hunter complaining about having a dead zone. It's an inherent, designed weakness meant to be exploited by other classes, not an oversight or bug that is accidentally preventing you from being all-powerful.

I'm not complaining about melee in leather (yes, that would be silly) I'm complaining that:
1. My epic weapon doesn't do squat against epic armor because of the way damage from my skills is calculated.
2. My fighting melee in leather is supposed to be offset by my stealth but in reality it's broken.

The video in this post is loosly related to my complaint #1 above. The shaman is clearly doing tons of damage due to his epic gear. However, If I were to get epic gear twice as good as his my damage would not really increase. It's a bad flaw that has gotten worse with every patch. IMHO a 60 rogue in tier 2 gear should be able to pull a 3k coldblood eviscerate. Instead he does the same damage as a 60 rogue in greens! I hope you guys can understand how this is frustrating! There are plenty of other flaws in the game that probably affect you as well but please acknowledge that this is an issue.

It's the same thing with casters, the spells don't scale up like melee gear does. Only things like the ToEP and ZG trinkets allow casters to deal out ridiculous amounts of damage. Which in my opinion cloth wearers like mages should be able to pump out the most amount of damage to begin with. The reason rogues are dangerous, is the stunlock abilities. The damage is more burst, but controlling an opponent during the entire fight is something most rogues don't do. In my entire time of playing WoW I have yet o be completely stunlocked by a *single* rogue. You just don't see people spec for it. Most spec 20/31/0 for the great PvE damage, but that's not what wins fights against high AC opponents. Against cloth and leather, you can put a quick beatdown on without using stunlock. Though when you start getting to mail, mail+shield, and plate you need time to work on that high AC. If you have nearly a full 20 seconds of stunlock you can chew up and spit out most even plate opponents through stunlock. Though you will never see it.

Rogues can be outdps'd by other classes, and without a means to heal that is a losing battle. Why would you blow a vanish to hit plate with a second ambush when you could use it to start another round of stunlock?

 

[CKent]

Originally posted by: TGS
In my entire time of playing WoW I have yet o be completely stunlocked by a *single* rogue. You just don't see people spec for it. Most spec 20/31/0 for the great PvE damage, but that's not what wins fights against high AC opponents. Against cloth and leather, you can put a quick beatdown on without using stunlock. Though when you start getting to mail, mail+shield, and plate you need time to work on that high AC. If you have nearly a full 20 seconds of stunlock you can chew up and spit out most even plate opponents through stunlock. Though you will never see it.

Rogues can be outdps'd by other classes, and without a means to heal that is a losing battle. Why would you blow a vanish to hit plate with a second ambush when you could use it to start another round of stunlock?

So many factors work against this... First you have diminishing returns on stuns. What's a stunlock build really? All it is is a build which incorporates a point or three in imp kidney shot to lower the reuse timer (20 seconds base, 14 with 3/3 points in it - buried 20 deep in assassination, an area sword/mace rogues don't touch. But even if you wasted 5 whole CPs on a kidney shot, the 2nd one would last 3 seconds, the third 1.5 seconds. Then you have gouge - 45 energy. Without 3/3 imp gouge (another area sword/mace rogues don't touch) your opponent becomes unstunned when you've only generated 40 energy back (60 with 3/3 in it, a net gain of 15) - and you can't attack while an opponenet is gouged. The only real reason to use gouge is to kill time till KS comes back up - but with diminishing returns on it in PvP, why bother? Cheap shot only works in stealth, you can only do it twice if you want to blow a vanish (5 minute reuse, uses a reagent), 3x if you want to blow a prep and vanish (and are specced for prep, which is 20 deep in sub - another area sword/mace rogues don't touch, and is on a 10 minute reuse timer). And then there's orcs. 25% my fscking ass! They resist more like 75% of stuns. I'm an alliance rogue, I have enough experience with this that you can take my word for it. Maybe it's some kind of bug. The only possible true stunlock you'll see is a mace rogue getting lucky with procs. Even then, he won't have prep, imp KS or imp gouge. And it won't happen against orcs :|

 

[Smilin]

In my entire time of playing WoW I have yet o be completely stunlocked by a *single* rogue.

There is a reason why:

The "stunlock" is a myth.

At best you can respec to stun for a few seconds more but you'll pay in dps output.

Some specifics:
1. 20 seconds of stunlock isn't going to cut it. Why? because you don't generate enough energy in 20 seconds to stun AND attack. Sure you can disable someone for 20 seconds but when time is up they have enough health to still be in the fight and you are completely spent with no energy. You have to hope you can drop them while they are stunned - which you won't.
2. You don't vanish+2nd cheapshot to gain additional stun. No, you've already used that type once so the length of stun will be greatly diminished. You do it for the extra combo points. Vanish+2nd ambush is a tough move to pull off. Ambush is pretty easy for the first hit but your target isn't going to stand around while you manuver behind for a 2nd. Cheapshot works from the front.

I'm going to disagree a bit with TGS about gear. Casters have TONS of items that add X to damage spells or Y to healing spells. Find ONE item, ANY item in the entire game of WoW that adds damage to an eviscerate.

 

[Tremulant]

Imp gouge is not an 'area that sword/mace rogues don't touch.' It's an area that PvE rogues don't touch. Imp gouge lets you restealth and reopen (if you have RC) or reposition yourself to BS, in addition to already giving a CP.

The 'best' stunlock/control build would have to be a hemo build (something like 22/3/26), with imp cs, because of the reduced energy costs of hemo and cs. I just don't like swords and imo, hemo isn't worth it with daggers. So, I use a 21/8/22 build atm, because no other rogue in my guild has imp. sap. Otherwise I'd be using a 31/8/12 or 30/8/13 build because of the crazy CP gen.

And, imp ks is crap because of diminishing returns. Normal KS is fine though.

I'm glad I don't have to deal with orcs. Instead I have to deal with pallies going LOLIMMUNE all the time.

 

[cKGunslinger]

Originally posted by: RBachman
That's not an MMORPG timeline, it's what you've seen in a game or two, and caused by corporate greed & dev incompetence, at least for EQ. It needn't be that way.

: cKGunslinger attacks RBachman with Question (Rank 4).
: RBachman evades!
: RBachman evades!
: RBachman evades!


I thought they fixed that bug?

 

[cKGunslinger]

Originally posted by: Smilin

There is a reason why:

The "stunlock" is a myth.

At best you can respec to stun for a few seconds more but you'll pay in dps output.

Some specifics:
1. 20 seconds of stunlock isn't going to cut it. Why? because you don't generate enough energy in 20 seconds to stun AND attack. Sure you can disable someone for 20 seconds but when time is up they have enough health to still be in the fight and you are completely spent with no energy. You have to hope you can drop them while they are stunned - which you won't.

But what you've done is taken an opponent out of the battle for 20 seconds. FFS, that's *worse* than being killed, because at least when I die in a BG, I've got a better-than-average change of respawning in less than 20 seconds to continue fighting. Being stunlocked while defending a node in AB is the "roguiest" things that can happen to you. You were just removed from the fight and you have to watch you team get slaughtered while you sit there like a chump. The only thing more humiliating is have a Hunter drop a freeze trap on your feet while he caps the node.

You do know, it's not *all* about 1v1 killing in BGs? It's about helping your team. You whine about not being able to tear through everyone like a one-man-killing-machine, but what about priests that heal, or casters that CC, or buffer that buff? They rarely get kills, but are the some of the most important players in the game. It's all about playing your role, not soloing.

And if you take the RP approach, Rogues are basically cowardly, back-stabbing, creeping-in-the-shadows thieves, who's job it is to make themselves a giant PITA for other players, via saps, stunlocks, poisons, etc, not to be uber-melee DPS gods that can stand toe-to-toe with plate-clad warriors in an even matchup.

To quote to WoW forums, "It's fine, learn2play your class."

 

[Litchfield285]

Originally posted by: Smilin
I'm going to disagree a bit with TGS about gear. Casters have TONS of items that add X to damage spells or Y to healing spells. Find ONE item, ANY item in the entire game of WoW that adds damage to an eviscerate.

The + spell damage items for casters are the only way they can increase their overall damage. Without that they would be stuck at the preset levels set by the highest spell rank they had. A Rogues damage can always be increased by getting better weapons, more agility/strength, + attack power or what have you.

How would it be fair to casters if there were no such thing as + spell damage, or if it was extremely rare or hard to come by. That arguement makes no sense. It would be dumb if casters were stuck with just upgrading their int/spirit/stam stats and had no way to increase their overall damage.

And you're highly mistaken by saying a Rogue in tier 1/2 gear is stuck doing the same amount of damage as a Rogue in greens. That is completely untrue. My Rogue has 3/8 NS, 3/8 BF, a Vis'kag and Brutality Blade. I always outdamage underequipped Rogues in all aspects of the game by extremely large amounts. A Rogue is almost as gear dependant as a Warrior.

 

[Tremulant]

Originally posted by: Litchfield285

Originally posted by: Smilin
I'm going to disagree a bit with TGS about gear. Casters have TONS of items that add X to damage spells or Y to healing spells. Find ONE item, ANY item in the entire game of WoW that adds damage to an eviscerate.

The + spell damage items for casters are the only way they can increase their overall damage. Without that they would be stuck at the preset levels set by the highest spell rank they had. A Rogues damage can always be increased by getting better weapons, more agility/strength, + attack power or what have you.

How would it be fair to casters if there were no such thing as + spell damage, or if it was extremely rare or hard to come by. That arguement makes no sense. It would be dumb if casters were stuck with just upgrading their int/spirit/stam stats and had no way to increase their overall damage.

And you're highly mistaken by saying a Rogue in tier 1/2 gear is stuck doing the same amount of damage as a Rogue in greens. That is completely untrue. My Rogue has 3/8 NS, 3/8 BF, a Vis'kag and Brutality Blade. I always outdamage underequipped Rogues in all aspects of the game by extremely large amounts. A Rogue is almost as gear dependant as a Warrior.

Re-read the bolded part. Now, realize how your response had nothing to do with the bolded part.

There isn't any gear in the game (yet, 1.10 may add something) that increases the damage of eviscerate.

Other rogue skills are affected by your stats, eviscerate is not.

 

[Tremulant]

Originally posted by: cKGunslinger

Originally posted by: Smilin

There is a reason why:

The "stunlock" is a myth.

At best you can respec to stun for a few seconds more but you'll pay in dps output.

Some specifics:
1. 20 seconds of stunlock isn't going to cut it. Why? because you don't generate enough energy in 20 seconds to stun AND attack. Sure you can disable someone for 20 seconds but when time is up they have enough health to still be in the fight and you are completely spent with no energy. You have to hope you can drop them while they are stunned - which you won't.

But what you've done is taken an opponent out of the battle for 20 seconds. FFS, that's *worse* than being killed, because at least when I die in a BG, I've got a better-than-average change of respawning in less than 20 seconds to continue fighting. Being stunlocked while defending a node in AB is the "roguiest" things that can happen to you. You were just removed from the fight and you have to watch you team get slaughtered while you sit there like a chump. The only thing more humiliating is have a Hunter drop a freeze trap on your feet while he caps the node.

You do know, it's not *all* about 1v1 killing in BGs? It's about helping your team. You whine about not being able to tear through everyone like a one-man-killing-machine, but what about priests that heal, or casters that CC, or buffer that buff? They rarely get kills, but are the some of the most important players in the game. It's all about playing your role, not soloing.

And if you take the RP approach, Rogues are basically cowardly, back-stabbing, creeping-in-the-shadows thieves, who's job it is to make themselves a giant PITA for other players, via saps, stunlocks, poisons, etc, not to be uber-melee DPS gods that can stand toe-to-toe with plate-clad warriors in an even matchup.

To quote to WoW forums, "It's fine, learn2play your class."

I agree.

The main reason that I keep players stunned isn't to kill them outright, it's to keep them from killing my teammates. I keep him locked down and it gives them a chance to focus fire or lets them take out other targets first.

I can take out warriors with better gear if I a) get lucky and b) use evasion when KS wears off. If I don't kill them, it's usually a close fight.