To bomb, or to bunker? Israel's Iran choices narrow

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LunarRay

Diamond Member
Mar 2, 2003
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Occupation is the mandatory condition for control. To occupy a nation, any nation, from Israel to India requires massing forces in some locale(s). In order to thwart that the nation under 'attack' has to deploy lots of assets that may or may not be effective. Small 'tactical' type nuclear weapons the size the nations there have are suitable for this defense. They are not nation busters. They are not first strike weapons but they are retaliation and defensive ones.
What better way to say to any aggressor nation "we can't keep you from trying but we can break you of the habit" than to dangle the nuclear notion.
We'd not invade and put all our human assets at risk knowing the mind set of the area.
There is another aspect, I think, and that is the oil fields. Make the oil fields useless and the Western economy would go to poop.
I think Iran is the least likely of the holders of nuclear weapons to use them first.
I think the only nation(s) either in that region or with a presence in that region who'd use them in a peremptory manner are/is the US and (?) Pakistan.
 

Fern

Elite Member
Sep 30, 2003
26,907
174
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Originally posted by: eskimospy
Originally posted by: Fern
-snip-

I figured the ways they profited from a nuke were pretty obvious... freedom of action.
-snip-

Yeah, but what actions?

They seem to have a pretty agressive foreign policy. I'm asking you to do some 'gaming' and consider how they use these nukes. I.e., just because they won't launch it at us doesn't mean they're (Iran with nukes) is no danger to us.

BTW: I'm not sure what external threats you speak of. As I look at their neighbors I don't see anyone who could be considered a likely threat. I'm sure some would argue otherwise, but it'll be pretty weak. Yeah, Pakistan has nukes, but they've got problems on all sides (also internally) and would really have to be provoked to seriously bother Iran. Yeah, they have a history with Iraq, but Iraq's not in any position to start crap either, and likely won't be for a long while.

I.e., I'm saying if they need nukes to deter aggression by another it's because they're planning to start the aggression for their own expansionist objectives. That spells trouble for us.

Or maybe they wanna sell it? That spells trouble as well.

The only way I don't see it as trouble is if they were the 'good guys' surrounded by a bunch of 'baddies', but that just isn't the case.

Fern
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
88,246
55,794
136
Originally posted by: Fern
Originally posted by: eskimospy
Originally posted by: Fern
-snip-

I figured the ways they profited from a nuke were pretty obvious... freedom of action.
-snip-

Yeah, but what actions?

They seem to have a pretty agressive foreign policy. I'm asking you to do some 'gaming' and consider how they use these nukes. I.e., just because they won't launch it at us doesn't mean they're (Iran with nukes) is no danger to us.

BTW: I'm not sure what external threats you speak of. As I look at their neighbors I don't see anyone who could be considered a likely threat. I'm sure some would argue otherwise, but it'll be pretty weak. Yeah, Pakistan has nukes, but they've got problems on all sides (also internally) and would really have to be provoked to seriously bother Iran. Yeah, they have a history with Iraq, but Iraq's not in any position to start crap either, and likely won't be for a long while.

I.e., I'm saying if they need nukes to deter aggression by another it's because they're planning to start the aggression for their own expansionist objectives. That spells trouble for us.

Or maybe they wanna sell it? That spells trouble as well.

The only way I don't see it as trouble is if they were the 'good guys' surrounded by a bunch of 'baddies', but that just isn't the case.

Fern

I find it highly unlikely they will attempt to sell them, too easily traced back.

Of their neighbors, only Israel is a significant threat. Hell, Iraq looks to be turning into Iran's #1 ally in the near future. I definitely think it spells bad news for the US, because I completely agree that Iran's foreign policy will become more aggressive with nukes. I'm not arguing that Iran having nukes is a good thing for the US in any way, just trying to dispel the idea that they are some sort of national suicide bomber who wants to nuke everyone.

I'm not exactly sure what actions they are looking to take, I don't know enough about their foreign policy. But yes, it's pretty likely to be things we don't like. I'd like for us to stop Iran from getting nukes, but I don't really see a credible military way to stop them... so we'll have to hope for the best with diplomacy.
 

PokerGuy

Lifer
Jul 2, 2005
13,650
201
101
Originally posted by: Fern
The only way I don't see it as trouble is if they were the 'good guys' surrounded by a bunch of 'baddies', but that just isn't the case.

Fern

No, turn the situation around for a sec. If you look at it from the Iranian perspective, it makes perfect sense to want to have a nuke purely as a defensive ace. It's not that they think they need it because of a possible reaction to something they are planning to do to someone else, it's that they see it as the deterrent to keep the US or Israel from attacking them for whatever reason. They're just applying the lesson from Iraq. Had Iraq had a nuke, the US would not have been able to invade and remove Saddam. If you were part of the Iranian nutcase leadership, would you not want that assurance?
 

Fern

Elite Member
Sep 30, 2003
26,907
174
106
Originally posted by: PokerGuy
Originally posted by: Fern
The only way I don't see it as trouble is if they were the 'good guys' surrounded by a bunch of 'baddies', but that just isn't the case.

Fern

No, turn the situation around for a sec. If you look at it from the Iranian perspective, it makes perfect sense to want to have a nuke purely as a defensive ace. It's not that they think they need it because of a possible reaction to something they are planning to do to someone else, it's that they see it as the deterrent to keep the US or Israel from attacking them for whatever reason. They're just applying the lesson from Iraq. Had Iraq had a nuke, the US would not have been able to invade and remove Saddam. If you were part of the Iranian nutcase leadership, would you not want that assurance?

So what are they planning to do that would encourage the USA or Israel to attack them?

Fern
 

LunarRay

Diamond Member
Mar 2, 2003
9,993
1
76
Originally posted by: Fern
Originally posted by: PokerGuy
Originally posted by: Fern
The only way I don't see it as trouble is if they were the 'good guys' surrounded by a bunch of 'baddies', but that just isn't the case.

Fern

No, turn the situation around for a sec. If you look at it from the Iranian perspective, it makes perfect sense to want to have a nuke purely as a defensive ace. It's not that they think they need it because of a possible reaction to something they are planning to do to someone else, it's that they see it as the deterrent to keep the US or Israel from attacking them for whatever reason. They're just applying the lesson from Iraq. Had Iraq had a nuke, the US would not have been able to invade and remove Saddam. If you were part of the Iranian nutcase leadership, would you not want that assurance?

So what are they planning to do that would encourage the USA or Israel to attack them?

Fern

Create the unity of Iraq/Iran into one nation comes to mind. I think Iran sees itself as the big kid on the block now that Saddam's Iraq is gone. The UIR (United Islamic Republic) would be a force to recon with and all that oil in Iraq...

Edit: I wonder if a UIR wouldn't be a real force to bring Afghanistan into that fold and Maybe Pakistan too. An EEC of the Mid East is the least objectionable but I think all of Islamic countries united would be devastating to all Western interests.

 

bamacre

Lifer
Jul 1, 2004
21,029
2
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Originally posted by: Fern
As I look at their neighbors I don't see anyone who could be considered a likely threat.

You don't?

How many of their neighbors contain US military personnel and/or bases?

If I were in charge of Iran, I'd be trying to build a nuke too.
 

Brovane

Diamond Member
Dec 18, 2001
6,528
2,667
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I think a nuclear Iran will be more sane. If they really want nuclear weapons they will get them. I will post this essay again that I had posted a while back. I think it is a very good article about nation states and nuclear weapons.

http://homepage.mac.com/msb/16...clear_warfare_101.html

From: "Stuart Slade" <shiva06804@yahoo.com>
Date: Mon Aug 19, 2002 07:53:22 AM US/Pacific
Subject: Nuclear Warfare 101

The Nuclear Game - An Essay on Nuclear Policy Making

When a country first acquires nuclear weapons it does so out of a very accurate perception that possession of nukes fundamentally changes it relationships with other powers. What nuclear weapons buy for a New Nuclear Power (NNP) is the fact that once the country in question has nuclear weapons, it cannot be beaten. It can be defeated, that is it can be prevented from achieving certain goals or stopped from following certain courses of action, but it cannot be beaten. It will never have enemy tanks moving down the streets of its capital, it will never have its national treasures looted and its citizens forced into servitude. The enemy will be destroyed by nuclear attack first. A potential enemy knows that so will not push the situation to the point where our NNP is on the verge of being beaten. In effect, the effect of acquiring nuclear weapons is that the owning country has set limits on any conflict in which it is involved. This is such an immensely attractive option that states find it irresistible.

Only later do they realize the problem. Nuclear weapons are so immensely destructive that they mean a country can be totally destroyed by their use. Although our NNP cannot be beaten by an enemy it can be destroyed by that enemy. Although a beaten country can pick itself up and recover, the chances of a country devastated by nuclear strikes doing the same are virtually non-existent. [This needs some elaboration. Given the likely scale and effects of a nuclear attack, its most unlikely that the everybody will be killed. There will be survivors and they will rebuild a society but it will have nothing in common with what was there before. So, to all intents and purposes, once a society initiates a nuclear exchange its gone forever]. Once this basic factor has been absorbed, the NNP makes a fundamental realization that will influence every move it makes from this point onwards. If it does nothing, its effectively invincible. If, however, it does something, there is a serious risk that it will initiate a chain of events that will eventually lead to a nuclear holocaust. The result of that terrifying realization is strategic paralysis.

With that appreciation of strategic paralysis comes an even worse problem. A non-nuclear country has a wide range of options for its forces. Although its actions may incur a risk of being beaten they do not court destruction. Thus, a non-nuclear nation can afford to take risks of a calculated nature. However,a nuclear-equipped nation has to consider the risk that actions by its conventional forces will lead to a situation where it may have to use its nuclear forces with the resulting holocaust. Therefore, not only are its strategic nuclear options restricted by its possession of nuclear weapons, so are its tactical and operational options. So we add tactical and operational paralysis to the strategic variety. This is why we see such a tremendous emphasis on the mechanics of decision making in nuclear powers. Every decision has to be thought through, not for one step or the step after but for six, seven or eight steps down the line.

We can see this in the events of the 1960s and 1970s, especially surrounding the Vietnam War. Every so often, the question gets asked "How could the US have won in Vietnam?" with a series of replies that include invading the North,extending the bombing to China and other dramatic escalations of the conflict. Now, it should be obvious why such suggestions could not, in the real world, be contemplated. The risk of ending up in a nuclear war was too great. For another example, note how the presence of nuclear weapons restricted and limited the tactical and operational options available to both sides in the 1973 Yom Kippur War. In effect neither side could push the war to a final conclusion because to do so would bring down nuclear attack on the heads of the "winners". Here, Israel's nuclear arsenal was limiting the conflict before it even started. Egypt and Syria couldn't destroy the country - all they could do was to chew up enough of the Israeli armed forces and put themselves in the correct strategic position to dictate a peace agreement on much more favorable terms than would be the case. But, the Israeli nuclear arsenal also limited the conflict in another way. Because they were a nuclear power they were fair game; if they pushed the Egyptians too hard, they would demand Soviet assistance and who knew where that would lead?

So, the direct effects of nuclear weapons in a nation's hands is to make that nation extremely cautious. They spend much time studying situations, working out the implications of such situations, what the likely results of certain policy options are. One of the immense advantages the US had in the Cold War was that they had a network of Research Institutes and Associations and consulting companies who spent their time doing exactly this sort of work. (Ahh the dear dead days of planning nuclear wars. The glow of satisfaction as piecutters are placed over cities; the warm feeling of fulfillment as the death toll passed the billion mark; the sick feeling of disappointment as the casualties from a given strategy only amounted to some 40 million when preliminary studies had shown a much more productive result. But I digress). This meant that a much wider range of policy options could be studied than was possible if the ideas were left in military hands.These organizations, the famous think tanks had no inhibitions about asking very awkward questions that would end the career of a military officer doing the same. This network became known as The Business. We're still out here.

So. What were nuclear weapons good for? It seems they are more of a liability than an asset. To some extent that's true but the important fact remains,they do limit conflict. As long as they are in place and functional they are an insurance policy against a nation getting beaten. That means that if that country is going to get beaten, its nuclear weapons have to be taken out first. It also means that if it ever uses its nuclear weapons, once they are gone, its invulnerability vanishes with it. Thus, the threat posed by nuclear weapons is a lot more effective and valuable than the likely results of using those weapons. Of course, this concern becomes moot if it appears likely that the NNP is about to lose its nuclear weapons to a pre-emptive strike. Under these circumstances, the country may decide that its in a use-it-or-lose-it situation.The more vulnerable to pre-emption those weapons are the stronger that imperative becomes.

This is why ICBMs are such an attractive option. They are faster-reacting than bombers, they are easier to protect on the ground and they are much more likely to get through to their targets. This is why modern, advanced devices are much more desirable than the older versions. In the 1950s the Soviet Union had a nuclear attack reaction time of six weeks (don't laugh, that of the US was 30 days). The reason was simple, device design in those days meant that the device, once assembled, deteriorated very quickly and, once degraded, had to be sent back to the plant for remanufacture. Device assembly needed specialized teams and took time. This made a first strike very, very attractive - as long as the attacker could be sure of getting all the enemy force. It was this long delay to get forces available that made air defense and ABM such an attractive option. In effect, it could blunt an enemy attack while the assembly crews frantically put their own devices together and got them ready for launch. As advancing device design made it possible to reduce assembly time, this aspect of ABM became less important.

What this also suggests is that large, secure nuclear arsenals are inherently safer than small, vulnerable ones. A large arsenal means that the owner can do appalling damage to an enemy, a secure arsenal means that no matter how the enemy attacks, enough weapons will survive to allow that destruction to take place. Here we have the genesis of the most misunderstood term in modern warfare - MAD, Mutually Assured Destruction. (Another point of elaboration here - MAD is not a policy and has never been instituted as a policy option. It's the effect of policies that have been promulgated. This is a very useful touchstone - if people mention the US Policy of MAD, they don't know what they are talking about). Its widely believed that this suggests that both sides are wide open to unrestricted destruction by the other. This is a gross over-simplification. What the term actually means is that both sides have enough nuclear firepower to destroy the other and that the firepower in question is configured in such ways that no pre-emptive strike can destroy enough of it to take away the fact that the other country will be destroyed. MAD did not preclude the use of defensive systems - in fact it was originally formulated to show how important they are - but its misunderstood version was held to do so - with catastrophic results for us all. One implication of this by the way is that in spite of all the fuss over the Chinese stealing the W88 warhead design, the net beneficiary of that is the United States; it allows the Chinese to build a much more secure deterrent and thus a more stable one. Also, looking at things purely ruthlessly, its better for one's enemy to make small clean bombs than big dirty ones.

Aha, I hear you say what about the mad dictator? Its interesting to note that mad, homicidal aggressive dictators tend to get very tame sane cautious ones as soon as they split atoms. Whatever their motivations and intents, the mechanics of how nuclear weapons work dictate that mad dictators become sane dictators very quickly. After all its not much fun dictating if one's country is a radioactive trash pile and you're one of the ashes. China, India and Pakistan are good examples. One of the best examples of this process at work is Mao Tse Tung. Throughout the 1950s he was extraordinarily bellicose and repeatedly tried to bully, cajole or trick Khruschev and his successors into initiating a nuclear exchange with the US on the grounds that world communism would rise from the ashes. Thats what Quemoy and Matsu were all about in the late 1950s. Then China got nuclear weapons. Have you noticed how reticent they are with them? Its sunk in. They can be totally destroyed; will be totally destroyed; in the event of an exchange. A Chinese Officer here once on exchange (billed as a "look what we can do" session it was really a "look what we can do to you" exercise) produced the standard line about how the Chinese could lose 500 million people in a nuclear war and keep going with the survivors. So his hosts got out a demographic map (one that shows population densities rather than topographical data) and got to work with pie-cutters using a few classified tricks - and got virtually the entire population of China using only a small proportion of the US arsenal. The guest stared at the map for a couple of minutes then went and tossed his cookies into the toilet bowl. The only people who mouth off about using nuclear weapons and threaten others with them are those that do not have keys hanging around their necks. The moment they get keys and realize what they've let themselves in for, they get to be very quiet and very cautious indeed. Another great - and very recent example - look how circumspect the Indians and Pakistani Governments were in the recent confrontation - lots of words but little or no action to back them and both sides worked very hard not to do anything that could be misunderstood. (When the Pakistani's did a missile test they actually invited the Indians over to watch in order to ensure there was no ground for misunderstanding. The test itself was another message from both countries to the rest of the world - basically it read "Don't sweat it, we know the rules")

One anayst from The Business was asked what Saddam Hussein would have done if Iraq had possessed nuclear weapons in 1990. He replied that he didn't know what he would have done but he did know what he would not have done - he would not have invaded Kuwait.
 

FaaR

Golden Member
Dec 28, 2007
1,056
412
136
Originally posted by: Modelworks
The point is they don't have that capability.
Right, that's absolutely true!

And it will continue to be true up until the second they DO get nuclear capability. And by then it'll be too late!

The true point is to keep them from ever achieving that goal. Even if Iran was a 100% trustworthy and reliable ally of every nation on earth (which is absolutely not the case), there's already too many countries with nuclear capability, and not all of them are entirely stable nations either (Pakistan, North Korea mainly, lesser degree India, China, Russia.)

Right now Iran is a local problem for the countries living near them . Those countries are more than capable of taking out Iran's ability to produce a ICBM type weapon.
What nations are you referring to? Of Iran's more or less immediate neighbors, only Israel would be ready, willing and capable to take out their nuclear facilities.

If nobody acts and Iran does get the ability to launch an ICBM at the USA we are more than capable of defending ourselves from them.
Any nuke sent from Iran would more than likely arrive by container ship or similar rather than on top of an ICBM; that would be a far cheaper, safer and more reliable delivery method. Nobody has full control over what exactly arrives in all those thousands of containers unloaded on a daily basis. Reload the container onto a trailer, drive off to some warehouse somewhere, then put it in a truck or van and drive it to its destination. Then krakatau! and we're down one major metropolitan city.
 

Fern

Elite Member
Sep 30, 2003
26,907
174
106
Originally posted by: bamacre
Originally posted by: Fern
As I look at their neighbors I don't see anyone who could be considered a likely threat.

You don't?

How many of their neighbors contain US military personnel and/or bases?

If I were in charge of Iran, I'd be trying to build a nuke too.

No I don't.

Which of their bordering countries do you think poses a real threat?

(The USA is another matter and has been adressed, or is being adressed)

Fern
 

Sacrilege

Senior member
Sep 6, 2007
647
0
0
Guys, think of the defense contracts that could be made if we got another big war going!!! Iraq and Afghanistan are winding down, the Right Wing is worried about the lack of bloodletting....
 

Brovane

Diamond Member
Dec 18, 2001
6,528
2,667
136
Originally posted by: FaaR
Originally posted by: Modelworks
The point is they don't have that capability.
Right, that's absolutely true!

And it will continue to be true up until the second they DO get nuclear capability. And by then it'll be too late!

The true point is to keep them from ever achieving that goal. Even if Iran was a 100% trustworthy and reliable ally of every nation on earth (which is absolutely not the case), there's already too many countries with nuclear capability, and not all of them are entirely stable nations either (Pakistan, North Korea mainly, lesser degree India, China, Russia.)

Right now Iran is a local problem for the countries living near them . Those countries are more than capable of taking out Iran's ability to produce a ICBM type weapon.
What nations are you referring to? Of Iran's more or less immediate neighbors, only Israel would be ready, willing and capable to take out their nuclear facilities.

If nobody acts and Iran does get the ability to launch an ICBM at the USA we are more than capable of defending ourselves from them.
Any nuke sent from Iran would more than likely arrive by container ship or similar rather than on top of an ICBM; that would be a far cheaper, safer and more reliable delivery method. Nobody has full control over what exactly arrives in all those thousands of containers unloaded on a daily basis. Reload the container onto a trailer, drive off to some warehouse somewhere, then put it in a truck or van and drive it to its destination. Then krakatau! and we're down one major metropolitan city.

The containers coming into the US are routinely scanned for radioactivity. Any nuclear weapon would probably be detected if they actually tried to offload it. Maybe if they wanted to load a weapon and have it detonated say in Long Beach Harbor before it was offloaded.

Also if this would happen it would be traced right back to Iran and the nation of Iran would cease to exist as a nation as the full scale nuclear retaliation follows. I don't see the leaders of Iran doing this. They are not willing to commit national suicide because they would also be signing there own death warrants.
 

LunarRay

Diamond Member
Mar 2, 2003
9,993
1
76
No one is going to deliver a nuclear weapon into the US but a Terrorist group. IF that happened the host nation would be in deep do do so no one there would sponsor that event. It would be feasible IF and only IF the traceability were nil.
 

yllus

Elite Member & Lifer
Aug 20, 2000
20,577
432
126
Nobody wants Iran to have nuclear weapons, but nobody can stop them. Not even the U.S.

All we can do is hope that with the ultimate weapon in their hands, Iran will gain some semblance of responsibility in foreign affairs.
 

piasabird

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
17,168
60
91
So for every nuclear bomb Iran can make, we can drop 100 on them. I think the big question is if and when they use a nuclear device will we do anything. More likely Isreal will make a preemptive strike. USA already has troops in Afganistan and Iraq. Seems like it would be easy to attack them from all sides plus sea and air. The big question is are they stupid enough to attack isreal. You see Isreal is so close to other countries like the Plaestinians (Isreal Territory), Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, that if they actually bombed Isreal with a nuclear device that a lot of other Muslim and Arab countries and people could die as well. Isreal is a really small country.

Step one attack (Bomb) Iran.

Step two Price of Oil Sky Rockets.

Step three Global Depression.

Cant see the advantage to such a scenario.
 

bamacre

Lifer
Jul 1, 2004
21,029
2
81
Originally posted by: Fern
Originally posted by: bamacre
Originally posted by: Fern
As I look at their neighbors I don't see anyone who could be considered a likely threat.

You don't?

How many of their neighbors contain US military personnel and/or bases?

If I were in charge of Iran, I'd be trying to build a nuke too.

No I don't.

Which of their bordering countries do you think poses a real threat?

(The USA is another matter and has been adressed, or is being adressed)

Fern

It's not so much that those countries are a threat, but they are practically surrounded by US military.
 

Brovane

Diamond Member
Dec 18, 2001
6,528
2,667
136
Originally posted by: piasabird
So for every nuclear bomb Iran can make, we can drop 100 on them. I think the big question is if and when they use a nuclear device will we do anything. More likely Isreal will make a preemptive strike. USA already has troops in Afganistan and Iraq. Seems like it would be easy to attack them from all sides plus sea and air. The big question is are they stupid enough to attack isreal. You see Isreal is so close to other countries like the Plaestinians (Isreal Territory), Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, that if they actually bombed Isreal with a nuclear device that a lot of other Muslim and Arab countries and people could die as well. Isreal is a really small country.

The key part that I wonder about people talk about Iran attacking Israeli with nuclear weapons is delivery. How is Iran going to deliver a nuclear weapon to Israeli? Israeli border security is much tighter than the US. I don't see Iran being able to sneak a nuclear weapon in. I also don't see any state bordering Iran helping in the delivery of such weapon because they would also be commiting national suicide. Aircraft, that isn't going to happen. Missile, Israeli has a much more advanced ABM system than they did in Gulf War 1 and I see any Ballistic Missile that Iran launches having a high probability of getting shot down. Can you imagine the embaressment for Iran if they launch a nuclear tipped missile and it gets shot down.

If you take a step back I don't see Iran attacking either Israeli or the US if they get nuclear weapons. They just want nuclear weapons for prestige purposes.
 

Modelworks

Lifer
Feb 22, 2007
16,240
7
76
Originally posted by: FaaR

Any nuke sent from Iran would more than likely arrive by container ship or similar rather than on top of an ICBM; that would be a far cheaper, safer and more reliable delivery method. Nobody has full control over what exactly arrives in all those thousands of containers unloaded on a daily basis. Reload the container onto a trailer, drive off to some warehouse somewhere, then put it in a truck or van and drive it to its destination. Then krakatau! and we're down one major metropolitan city.

No it wouldn't. That would achieve little , you would be better to make a bomb out of conventional explosives. Iran does not have the capabilities for high yield devices . Low yield devices like those used on Hiroshima are very poor weapons at ground level. You need height to make them work as a mass destruction weapon, that means a missile or plane.

 

Brovane

Diamond Member
Dec 18, 2001
6,528
2,667
136
Originally posted by: Modelworks
Originally posted by: FaaR

Any nuke sent from Iran would more than likely arrive by container ship or similar rather than on top of an ICBM; that would be a far cheaper, safer and more reliable delivery method. Nobody has full control over what exactly arrives in all those thousands of containers unloaded on a daily basis. Reload the container onto a trailer, drive off to some warehouse somewhere, then put it in a truck or van and drive it to its destination. Then krakatau! and we're down one major metropolitan city.

No it wouldn't. That would achieve little , you would be better to make a bomb out of conventional explosives. Iran does not have the capabilities for high yield devices . Low yield devices like those used on Hiroshima are very poor weapons at ground level. You need height to make them work as a mass destruction weapon, that means a missile or plane.

That is very true. I would imagine for greatest effect if they detonated a bomb on a container ship in the port of Los Angeles. This would cause some widespread destruction. However even if they develope nuclear weapons the device would be probably below 50kt. What the first North Korean nuke test was below 2kt. However a nuclear detonation would have a large shock effect on the US.

 

ebaycj

Diamond Member
Mar 9, 2002
5,418
0
0
Originally posted by: Modelworks
Originally posted by: FaaR

Any nuke sent from Iran would more than likely arrive by container ship or similar rather than on top of an ICBM; that would be a far cheaper, safer and more reliable delivery method. Nobody has full control over what exactly arrives in all those thousands of containers unloaded on a daily basis. Reload the container onto a trailer, drive off to some warehouse somewhere, then put it in a truck or van and drive it to its destination. Then krakatau! and we're down one major metropolitan city.

No it wouldn't. That would achieve little , you would be better to make a bomb out of conventional explosives. Iran does not have the capabilities for high yield devices . Low yield devices like those used on Hiroshima are very poor weapons at ground level. You need height to make them work as a mass destruction weapon, that means a missile or plane.

It is pretty cool, yet at the same time, a little disturbing, that you know this.

That is, unless you are talking out of your ass (not sure).
 

Brovane

Diamond Member
Dec 18, 2001
6,528
2,667
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Originally posted by: ebaycj
Originally posted by: Modelworks
Originally posted by: FaaR

Any nuke sent from Iran would more than likely arrive by container ship or similar rather than on top of an ICBM; that would be a far cheaper, safer and more reliable delivery method. Nobody has full control over what exactly arrives in all those thousands of containers unloaded on a daily basis. Reload the container onto a trailer, drive off to some warehouse somewhere, then put it in a truck or van and drive it to its destination. Then krakatau! and we're down one major metropolitan city.

No it wouldn't. That would achieve little , you would be better to make a bomb out of conventional explosives. Iran does not have the capabilities for high yield devices . Low yield devices like those used on Hiroshima are very poor weapons at ground level. You need height to make them work as a mass destruction weapon, that means a missile or plane.

It is pretty cool, yet at the same time, a little disturbing, that you know this.

That is, unless you are talking out of your ass (not sure).

It is just simple physics.

Basically this is how it works. When you ground burst a lot of that energy is going right into the ground. Some gets reflected back up but overall a lot of energy gets dumped into the ground. Both Hiroshima and Nagasaki where air bursts. So for soft targets like cities you use Air Bursts to get a bigger destructive pattern.

Ground bursts are useful for taking out hard targets like military bunkers, rail road marshaling yards,missile silos etc. For example Cheyenne mountain would get a ground burst to conduct that energy into the mountain to destroy the NORAD facility inside. However Denver would get a AirBurst since it maximizes the destruction on soft targets.

On a side note Air Bursts produce less fallout than a ground burst. With a ground burst you get a lot of highly radioactive dirt being thrown in the air. A airburst is a lot cleaner as far as fall out goes.
 

DucatiMonster696

Diamond Member
Aug 13, 2009
4,269
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Originally posted by: eskimospy
Originally posted by: Fern
Originally posted by: eskimospy

Iran will not use their nuclear weapons against Israel in a first strike. The idea that the leadership of Iran are a bunch of crazy people is immediately shown to be false when you look at their foreign policy actions. They are completely rational.

That doesn't mean they are good leadership, but I wouldn't worry about them nuking Israel any more than I'm worried about Pakistan nuking India. (and really I would take 5 nuclear Iran's over 1 nuclear Pakistan)

If they're as clever as you seem to imply, what pray tell can they do to profit from having a nuke in that region?

I do not belive they are getting it just to have a shiny new toy to look at. I don't belive they plan on sitting around like a 'good boy' but are worried that either Israel or us are going to nuke them for no reason.

No, I believe they have it to use it - not necessarily deploy it, but use it as leverage. What do you think they might do? How can they profit from the tremendous expense they've paid for it?

Fern

I figured the ways they profited from a nuke were pretty obvious... freedom of action. I'm certain they don't think we're going to nuke them, and I think they are about 99% sure Israel isn't going to either. With nuclear weapons they no longer have to significantly worry about external threats to their regime, and that's a huge plus.

Unless you are a dissident wanting reforming in Iran or a Israeli who doesn't want to get blown up by some Iranian sponsored terrorist groups.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
88,246
55,794
136
Originally posted by: ebaycj
Originally posted by: Modelworks
Originally posted by: FaaR

Any nuke sent from Iran would more than likely arrive by container ship or similar rather than on top of an ICBM; that would be a far cheaper, safer and more reliable delivery method. Nobody has full control over what exactly arrives in all those thousands of containers unloaded on a daily basis. Reload the container onto a trailer, drive off to some warehouse somewhere, then put it in a truck or van and drive it to its destination. Then krakatau! and we're down one major metropolitan city.

No it wouldn't. That would achieve little , you would be better to make a bomb out of conventional explosives. Iran does not have the capabilities for high yield devices . Low yield devices like those used on Hiroshima are very poor weapons at ground level. You need height to make them work as a mass destruction weapon, that means a missile or plane.

It is pretty cool, yet at the same time, a little disturbing, that you know this.

That is, unless you are talking out of your ass (not sure).

Well in general the destructive power of nuclear weapons is wildly overestimated. It's not that they aren't incredibly destructive, but the idea of a single one destroying an entire city isn't really accurate. Hiroshima and Nagasaki not only weren't particularly huge cities by modern standards, but they were made of wood and paper. It's like they were the first two of the three little pigs. Our modern cities (at least from a sheer destruction perspective) would probably fare pretty well.

Then again, despite the fact that most of the city would still be standing, you would have mass panic/fear of radiation/etc/etc to worry about, so we're still pretty screwed.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
88,246
55,794
136
Originally posted by: DucatiMonster696
Originally posted by: eskimospy
Originally posted by: Fern
Originally posted by: eskimospy

Iran will not use their nuclear weapons against Israel in a first strike. The idea that the leadership of Iran are a bunch of crazy people is immediately shown to be false when you look at their foreign policy actions. They are completely rational.

That doesn't mean they are good leadership, but I wouldn't worry about them nuking Israel any more than I'm worried about Pakistan nuking India. (and really I would take 5 nuclear Iran's over 1 nuclear Pakistan)

If they're as clever as you seem to imply, what pray tell can they do to profit from having a nuke in that region?

I do not belive they are getting it just to have a shiny new toy to look at. I don't belive they plan on sitting around like a 'good boy' but are worried that either Israel or us are going to nuke them for no reason.

No, I believe they have it to use it - not necessarily deploy it, but use it as leverage. What do you think they might do? How can they profit from the tremendous expense they've paid for it?

Fern

I figured the ways they profited from a nuke were pretty obvious... freedom of action. I'm certain they don't think we're going to nuke them, and I think they are about 99% sure Israel isn't going to either. With nuclear weapons they no longer have to significantly worry about external threats to their regime, and that's a huge plus.

Unless you are a dissident wanting reforming in Iran or a Israeli who doesn't want to get blown up by some Iranian sponsored terrorist groups.

It's a huge plus to the people making the bomb, not necessarily anyone else. I thought that was pretty obvious.
 

DucatiMonster696

Diamond Member
Aug 13, 2009
4,269
1
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Originally posted by: eskimospy
Originally posted by: DucatiMonster696
Originally posted by: eskimospy
Originally posted by: Fern
Originally posted by: eskimospy

Iran will not use their nuclear weapons against Israel in a first strike. The idea that the leadership of Iran are a bunch of crazy people is immediately shown to be false when you look at their foreign policy actions. They are completely rational.

That doesn't mean they are good leadership, but I wouldn't worry about them nuking Israel any more than I'm worried about Pakistan nuking India. (and really I would take 5 nuclear Iran's over 1 nuclear Pakistan)

If they're as clever as you seem to imply, what pray tell can they do to profit from having a nuke in that region?

I do not belive they are getting it just to have a shiny new toy to look at. I don't belive they plan on sitting around like a 'good boy' but are worried that either Israel or us are going to nuke them for no reason.

No, I believe they have it to use it - not necessarily deploy it, but use it as leverage. What do you think they might do? How can they profit from the tremendous expense they've paid for it?

Fern

I figured the ways they profited from a nuke were pretty obvious... freedom of action. I'm certain they don't think we're going to nuke them, and I think they are about 99% sure Israel isn't going to either. With nuclear weapons they no longer have to significantly worry about external threats to their regime, and that's a huge plus.

Unless you are a dissident wanting reforming in Iran or a Israeli who doesn't want to get blown up by some Iranian sponsored terrorist groups.

It's a huge plus to the people making the bomb, not necessarily anyone else. I thought that was pretty obvious.

Hence why Israel does not want them having nukes or any ability to possibly produce nukes from a "civilian nuclear program". Giving Iran a free hand to do as they please means a lot of dead Israelis to come. All via Iranian sponsored terror groups running a muck with sense of having a untouchable funding source for their acts of terrorism.