To bomb, or to bunker? Israel's Iran choices narrow

PJABBER

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Feb 8, 2001
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Sometime in the future, when you look back on these days, you will wonder why the U.S. did not take direct action to stop the development of the Iranian nuclear bomb.

It could have been done by a coordinated air strike or it could have been the imposition of a true embargo and blockade of Iran. We could even have been supportive of something else, anything else, that could have held off disastrous consequence.

But, didn't the world join us then in navel gazing and posturing in self delusion? For a few months we were accepted back into that oh so warm embrace of those who would destroy us by bombs and by the sweeter suffocation of pacifism.

Will it be so when thousands have died? Or when fallout is settling throughout the Mid-East, Europe or maybe the U.S.?

Did you cheer the Israelis as they attempted to stave off the existential threat they faced or did you watch numbly as the clouds of war rolled across your TV screen?

Did you celebrate with the thousands of Palestinians the death of Israelis, Europeans and Americans? Did you join the conflagration or did you just write your little notes to your friends on P&N abhorring, ignoring, rejecting the little effort that was made to preclude catastrophe.

You heard it explained to you in the press, you had your intelligent conversations and you remember how the hairs stood up on the back of your head when you first heard.

But that was then.

Now it has all changed.

It will never be the same again.

Until the next time.

To bomb, or to bunker? Israel's Iran choices narrow

* Current diplomatic course falls short of Israeli hopes

By Dan Williams
16 Sep 2009 12:55:52 GMT
Reuters

JERUSALEM, Sept 16 (Reuters) - The orchestrated roar of air force exercises designed to signal Israel's readiness to attack Iranian nuclear facilities are belied, perhaps, by a far quieter project deep beneath the western Jerusalem hills.

Dubbed "Nation's Tunnel" by the media and screened from view by government guards, it is a bunker network that would shelter Israeli leaders in an atomic war -- earth-bound repudiation of the Jewish state's vow to deny its foes the bomb at all costs.

Lash out or dig in? The quandary Israelis call existential seems close to decision-point. Iran's uranium enrichment has already produced enough raw fuel for one nuclear weapon, U.N. inspectors say, though Tehran denies having military designs. Next month's international good-faith talks offer no clear relief to Israel, which wants world powers to be prepared to penalise Iran's vulnerable energy imports but sees Russia and China blocking any such resolution at the U.N. Security Council.

That the Obama administration signed on to negotiating without preconditions -- a potential disavowal of the United States's past demand for an enrichment halt -- may only crank up Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's ticking clock.

"The longer the U.S. delays playing hardball with Iran, the sooner Israel is likely to strike," wrote Wall Street Journal columnist Bret Stephens.

Yet for every expert or diplomat bracing for an imminent attack, there's another who anticipates that Israel will be forced to stand down, hobbled by tactical limitations and the strategic hazards of ruining its top ally's regional agenda.

"Israel cannot take action so long as the United States is sincerely holding a real dialogue with Iran," said Giora Eiland, a retired Israeli general and former national security adviser.

Should Iran not yield, Eiland said, Washington might be able to persuade Moscow and Beijing to back tougher sanctions.

"But Israel could also end up alone, with two bad choices -- not doing anything and allowing Iran to have de facto military nuclear capacity, and carrying out a military intervention," he said, declining to elaborate on which choice he would recommend.

PLIANCY

The talks' duration could come down to the pliancy in an Iranian posture that has so far entailed defending enrichment as a legal right and brushing off allegations of warhead research.

"If Iran shows a little more skin, then the talks will drag out longer," said Mark Fitzpatrick, non-proliferation scholar at the International Institute for Strategic Studies in London..

"If doesn't show any more skin, then I think there could be sanctions by the end of the year," he said, suggesting that the United States and Europe could target Iran's financial sector.

Assumed to have the Middle East's only atomic arsenal, Israel bombed an Iraqi nuclear reactor in 1981 and carried out a similar sortie against Syria in 2007.

Aerial and naval manoeuvres, leaked to the media, have told of plans to reach Iran, though this time the targets are so distant, dispersed, and fortified that even Israel's top brass admit they could deliver a short-term, disruptive blow at most.

Hence Israel's discreet arrangements for living with the possibility of a nuclear-armed arch-enemy -- the bunkers, the missile interceptors, the talk of a U.S. strategic shield and of Cold War-style deterrence based on mutually-assured destruction.

One government intelligence analyst suggested that Israel had passed a psychological threshold by "allowing" Iran to manufacture enough low-enriched uranium (LEU) for a bomb. "We keep fretting about whether they will have a 'break-out capacity', but really they're already there," the analyst said.

The U.N. national intelligence director has assessed Iran will not be technically capable of producing high-enriched uranium (HEU) for the fissile core of an atom bomb before 2013.

Turning LEU into HEU would be an overt breach of international law, requiring Iran to eject foreign nuclear inspectors and recalibrate its centrifuges.

That, Fitzpatrick said, could be enough to trigger American military intervention -- Israel's ideal scenario. But he also saw the possibility of Iran agreeing to a limited domestic enrichment deal, with safeguards against illicit bomb-making.

Israel could still upend such talks and hit Iran -- say, if it suspects a parallel, secret enrichment project is coming to fruition. The Israelis may also want to preempt Iran's bid to buy advanced Russian air defences that could stave off a strike.

"There are three clocks at work here: technical, in terms of Iran's advances; operational, in terms of our capabilities and their precautions; and diplomatic," Eiland said.

"The questions is when and how these clocks might become synchronised for a 'window' in which Israel would act." (Editing by Samia Nakhoul)

Breaking: International Atomic Energy Agency says Iran can make and deliver bomb

VIENNA (AP) - Experts at the world's top atomic watchdog are in agreement that Tehran has the ability to make a nuclear bomb and is on the way to developing a missile system able to carry an atomic warhead, according to a secret report seen by The Associated Press.

The document drafted by senior officials at the International Atomic Energy Agency is the clearest indication yet that the agency's leaders share Washington's views on Iran's weapon-making capabilities.

It appears to be the so-called "secret annex" on Iran's nuclear program that Washington says is being withheld by the IAEA's chief.

The document says Iran has "sufficient information" to build a bomb. It says Iran is likely to "overcome problems" on developing a delivery system.
 

RyanPaulShaffer

Diamond Member
Jul 13, 2005
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But...the liberals told us that all this concern about Iran was ridiculous and that Iran was just a docile kitty cat neighbor!

:confused::roll::(:thumbsdown:
 

bamacre

Lifer
Jul 1, 2004
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Originally posted by: RyanPaulShaffer
But...the liberals told us that all this concern about Iran was ridiculous and that Iran was just a docile kitty cat neighbor!

:confused::roll::(:thumbsdown:

No they didn't.
 

RyanPaulShaffer

Diamond Member
Jul 13, 2005
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Originally posted by: bamacre
Originally posted by: RyanPaulShaffer
But...the liberals told us that all this concern about Iran was ridiculous and that Iran was just a docile kitty cat neighbor!

:confused::roll::(:thumbsdown:

No they didn't.

I seem to remember many P&N threads about Ahjminijaed (or however you spell his name), and certain folks of a certain political persuasion said that he wasn't a threat and neither was Iran. I'm really just too lazy at this point to look them up. :p

Besides, who was the one who wanted to give nuclear technology to Iran because they "weren't a threat" and would "only use it for peaceful purposes"? Hint: it wasn't a conservative.

CNN Story from June

"Obama said that any nation, including Iran, "should have the right to access peaceful nuclear power if it complies with its responsibilities under the nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty." He said such a "commitment" is at the treaty's core and "it must be kept for all who fully abide by it.""

It was clear, even back then when Ahjminijaed was bragging about "7,000 centrifuges!", that Iran was pursuing nuclear weapons. Developing nuclear weapons is a different process from developing peaceful nuclear energy applications. It was apparent to everyone that Iran was interested in the pursuit of weapons.

I don't really feel like trotting out all the Ahjminijaed quotes either, but there are numerous ones where he has clearly stated what Iran's intentions are.
 

SammyJr

Golden Member
Feb 27, 2008
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FEAR!!! TERRAR! AHHH!

Seriously, let Israel solve its own problems. If Israel bombs Iran, it should pay the consequences. Not Americans.
 

Patranus

Diamond Member
Apr 15, 2007
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Originally posted by: SammyJr
FEAR!!! TERRAR! AHHH!

Seriously, let Israel solve its own problems. If Israel bombs Iran, it should pay the consequences. Not Americans.

Guess you feel that USA shouldn't of invaded Europe in WWII? After all, it was those European Jews getting gassed. None of the USA's problem...right?

I mean it was JAPAN who attacked the USA so we can surly attacked them...but Europe...none of our business.....
 

RyanPaulShaffer

Diamond Member
Jul 13, 2005
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Originally posted by: SammyJr
FEAR!!! TERRAR! AHHH!

Seriously, let Israel solve its own problems. If Israel bombs Iran, it should pay the consequences. Not Americans.

You're an idiot. It will become everyone's problem when wackos get their hands on a weapon of mass destruction and have no fear of using it to inflict as much damage as possible to as many people as possible.

Stick your head in the sand some more. This isn't Iraq. Iran has stated, clearly, time and again, what their intentions are.
 

K1052

Elite Member
Aug 21, 2003
52,116
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Originally posted by: Patranus
And on the same day Obama officially kills the missile shield
http://www.reuters.com/article...51098820090917?sp=true

Obama did it because the Russians were opposed to it but now the Russians are selling weapons to Venezuela...Is Obama really this naive?

I'm sure he got something for it.....maybe for Russia to agree not to sell Iran top of the line air defense systems which keeps the door propped open a crack for Israel and their cooperation in the coming talks.

The Russians can sell whatever they want to old Hugo. He knows he can't menace his neighbors (Columbia in particular) too much or risk US intervention.
 

SammyJr

Golden Member
Feb 27, 2008
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Originally posted by: RyanPaulShaffer
Originally posted by: SammyJr
FEAR!!! TERRAR! AHHH!

Seriously, let Israel solve its own problems. If Israel bombs Iran, it should pay the consequences. Not Americans.

You're an idiot. It will become everyone's problem when wackos get their hands on a weapon of mass destruction and have no fear of using it to inflict as much damage as possible to as many people as possible.

Stick your head in the sand some more. This isn't Iraq. Iran has stated, clearly, time and again, what their intentions are.

Like I said, FEAR!!! TERRAR!!! AHHH!!! Let's have another war! Iran hasn't ever threatened me.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
87,734
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Originally posted by: RyanPaulShaffer
Originally posted by: SammyJr
FEAR!!! TERRAR! AHHH!

Seriously, let Israel solve its own problems. If Israel bombs Iran, it should pay the consequences. Not Americans.

You're an idiot. It will become everyone's problem when wackos get their hands on a weapon of mass destruction and have no fear of using it to inflict as much damage as possible to as many people as possible.

Stick your head in the sand some more. This isn't Iraq. Iran has stated, clearly, time and again, what their intentions are.

Iran will not use their nuclear weapons against Israel in a first strike. The idea that the leadership of Iran are a bunch of crazy people is immediately shown to be false when you look at their foreign policy actions. They are completely rational.

That doesn't mean they are good leadership, but I wouldn't worry about them nuking Israel any more than I'm worried about Pakistan nuking India. (and really I would take 5 nuclear Iran's over 1 nuclear Pakistan)
 

ElFenix

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Mar 20, 2000
102,396
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Originally posted by: Patranus

Guess you feel that USA shouldn't of invaded Europe in WWII? After all, it was those European Jews getting gassed. None of the USA's problem...right?

I mean it was JAPAN who attacked the USA so we can surly attacked them...but Europe...none of our business.....

germany declared war on us....
 

SammyJr

Golden Member
Feb 27, 2008
1,708
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0
Originally posted by: Patranus
Originally posted by: SammyJr
FEAR!!! TERRAR! AHHH!

Seriously, let Israel solve its own problems. If Israel bombs Iran, it should pay the consequences. Not Americans.

Guess you feel that USA shouldn't of invaded Europe in WWII? After all, it was those European Jews getting gassed. None of the USA's problem...right?

I mean it was JAPAN who attacked the USA so we can surly attacked them...but Europe...none of our business.....

Germany was sinking our supply boats. They declared war on us. And oh yeah, they were actually a threat to us.
 

eggshin

Member
Dec 19, 2006
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Sounds a bit like the same device used to get us into Iraq, iirc. Thank god we found those enormous stockpiles of...oh wai
 

Modelworks

Lifer
Feb 22, 2007
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Originally posted by: PJABBER
Sometime in the future, when you look back on these days, you will wonder why the U.S. did not take direct action to stop the development of the Iranian nuclear bomb.


I will not look back with regret at all.
Iran is not our problem anymore than Iraq or Afghanistan . Some may feel that we are the worlds police but I don't feel that way. Israel has all the strike capabilities we have, time they start using them and stop pushing their responsibilities on everyone else.

 

ayabe

Diamond Member
Aug 10, 2005
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Originally posted by: Modelworks
Originally posted by: PJABBER
Sometime in the future, when you look back on these days, you will wonder why the U.S. did not take direct action to stop the development of the Iranian nuclear bomb.


I will not look back with regret at all.
Iran is not our problem anymore than Iraq or Afghanistan . Some may feel that we are the worlds police but I don't feel that way. Israel has all the strike capabilities we have, time they start using them and stop pushing their responsibilities on everyone else.

:thumbsup:

Agree completely.

Not to mention what everybody already knows, we'll pay for every bomb that gets dropped and if the Israeli's lose any fighters, we'll be buying them new ones.
 

FaaR

Golden Member
Dec 28, 2007
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Originally posted by: RyanPaulShaffer
You're an idiot. It will become everyone's problem when wackos get their hands on a weapon of mass destruction and have no fear of using it to inflict as much damage as possible to as many people as possible.
Aye, agreed. Cool it with the namecalling though, alright? No need for that...

Ahmadinejad (or whatsisname) is a fanatical nutcase. Iran claims they have no wish to produce nuclear weapons, of course they're lying. They have every reason in the world (from their POV) to want them, and when they finally do manage to make one, they'll rationalize their lying with that they were 'forced' to lie in order to 'protect' themselves.

Bombing Iran would be disastrous in almost every aspect of the word, but letting those crazy-head bloodthirsty mullahs get access to nukes would be even worse. Iran's uranium refinement facilities must be destroyed.

If they're truly only interested in civilian nuclear technology then they can buy their low-grade fuel from somewhere else like nations like Sweden or Finland (among others) do, they have zero legitimate need to refine their own fuel if all they want is to generate electricity in nuclear powerplants.
 

bamacre

Lifer
Jul 1, 2004
21,029
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61
Originally posted by: RyanPaulShaffer
Originally posted by: bamacre
Originally posted by: RyanPaulShaffer
But...the liberals told us that all this concern about Iran was ridiculous and that Iran was just a docile kitty cat neighbor!

:confused::roll::(:thumbsdown:

No they didn't.

I seem to remember many P&N threads about Ahjminijaed (or however you spell his name), and certain folks of a certain political persuasion said that he wasn't a threat and neither was Iran. I'm really just too lazy at this point to look them up. :p

Besides, who was the one who wanted to give nuclear technology to Iran because they "weren't a threat" and would "only use it for peaceful purposes"? Hint: it wasn't a conservative.

CNN Story from June

"Obama said that any nation, including Iran, "should have the right to access peaceful nuclear power if it complies with its responsibilities under the nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty." He said such a "commitment" is at the treaty's core and "it must be kept for all who fully abide by it.""

It was clear, even back then when Ahjminijaed was bragging about "7,000 centrifuges!", that Iran was pursuing nuclear weapons. Developing nuclear weapons is a different process from developing peaceful nuclear energy applications. It was apparent to everyone that Iran was interested in the pursuit of weapons.

I don't really feel like trotting out all the Ahjminijaed quotes either, but there are numerous ones where he has clearly stated what Iran's intentions are.


The quote you posted by Obama is regarding Iran's use of nuclear power, not nuclear weapons.

Obama...

"We will also use all elements of American power to pressure Iran. I will do everything in my power to prevent Iran from obtaining a nuclear weapon. Everything in my power. Everything."


But Iran isn't a threat to the USA. To think they would use a nuclear weapon on Americans is absolutely ridiculous. The consequences would be disastrous. Iran would cease to exist.
 

Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
35,515
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Originally posted by: eggshin
Sounds a bit like the same device used to get us into Iraq, iirc. Thank god we found those enormous stockpiles of...oh wai

In this case Iran actually has a thriving nuclear program with help from Pakistan's AQ Khan and their trading partner North Korea. Both of whom already have nuclear weapons so it can be a safe assumption that Iran is following in their footsteps.

We're not exactly dealing with drawings of imaginary chemical trucks here.
 

FaaR

Golden Member
Dec 28, 2007
1,056
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Originally posted by: bamacreBut Iran isn't a threat to the USA. To think they would use a nuclear weapon on Americans is absolutely ridiculous. The consequences would be disastrous. Iran would cease to exist.
No, Iran's not a threat to the US. They (as in their religious fanatical leadership, not neccessarily the people) is a threat to the entire western world. They've shown this clearly enough with their overt financial of terrorist groups that has been going on for decades now.

That they've so far confined themselves to state-financed terrorism is merely because that's the only option open to them at the moment. Who knows how that could change if they had access to a bunch of nukes. That instant nuclear retaliation would result should they bomb Israel or the US might not even enter into their calculations, we're not dealing with rational people here but fanatical, blind religious zealots and hatemongers.

They're not dumb, they're smart as hell. But they're also willing to walk over corpses to achieve their goals. Look at some of the things the mullahs did during the Iran/Iraq war, they sent children out in front of their troops to clear minefields for example.

Who can say what sacrifices they would be willing to make if they had the means to turn Washington D.C. or Manhattan into a smoking glass crater.
 

Fern

Elite Member
Sep 30, 2003
26,907
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Originally posted by: eskimospy
Originally posted by: RyanPaulShaffer
Originally posted by: SammyJr
FEAR!!! TERRAR! AHHH!

Seriously, let Israel solve its own problems. If Israel bombs Iran, it should pay the consequences. Not Americans.

You're an idiot. It will become everyone's problem when wackos get their hands on a weapon of mass destruction and have no fear of using it to inflict as much damage as possible to as many people as possible.

Stick your head in the sand some more. This isn't Iraq. Iran has stated, clearly, time and again, what their intentions are.

Iran will not use their nuclear weapons against Israel in a first strike. The idea that the leadership of Iran are a bunch of crazy people is immediately shown to be false when you look at their foreign policy actions. They are completely rational.

That doesn't mean they are good leadership, but I wouldn't worry about them nuking Israel any more than I'm worried about Pakistan nuking India. (and really I would take 5 nuclear Iran's over 1 nuclear Pakistan)

If they're as clever as you seem to imply, what pray tell can they do to profit from having a nuke in that region?

I do not belive they are getting it just to have a shiny new toy to look at. I don't belive they plan on sitting around like a 'good boy' but are worried that either Israel or the USA is going to nuke them for no reason.

No, I believe they have it to use it - not necessarily deploy it, but use it as leverage. What do you think they might do? How can they profit from the tremendous expense they've paid for it?

Fern
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
87,734
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Originally posted by: Fern
Originally posted by: eskimospy

Iran will not use their nuclear weapons against Israel in a first strike. The idea that the leadership of Iran are a bunch of crazy people is immediately shown to be false when you look at their foreign policy actions. They are completely rational.

That doesn't mean they are good leadership, but I wouldn't worry about them nuking Israel any more than I'm worried about Pakistan nuking India. (and really I would take 5 nuclear Iran's over 1 nuclear Pakistan)

If they're as clever as you seem to imply, what pray tell can they do to profit from having a nuke in that region?

I do not belive they are getting it just to have a shiny new toy to look at. I don't belive they plan on sitting around like a 'good boy' but are worried that either Israel or us are going to nuke them for no reason.

No, I believe they have it to use it - not necessarily deploy it, but use it as leverage. What do you think they might do? How can they profit from the tremendous expense they've paid for it?

Fern

I figured the ways they profited from a nuke were pretty obvious... freedom of action. I'm certain they don't think we're going to nuke them, and I think they are about 99% sure Israel isn't going to either. With nuclear weapons they no longer have to significantly worry about external threats to their regime, and that's a huge plus.

 

Modelworks

Lifer
Feb 22, 2007
16,240
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Originally posted by: FaaR
[
Who can say what sacrifices they would be willing to make if they had the means to turn Washington D.C. or Manhattan into a smoking glass crater.


The point is they don't have that capability. Right now Iran is a local problem for the countries living near them . Those countries are more than capable of taking out Iran's ability to produce a ICBM type weapon. Why does it always have to be us ?

Maybe if the people that live in those areas where there are problems would band together they could change their lives rather than calling on the USA every time something doesn't go like they want it.

If nobody acts and Iran does get the ability to launch an ICBM at the USA we are more than capable of defending ourselves from them.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
87,734
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Originally posted by: Modelworks
Originally posted by: FaaR

Who can say what sacrifices they would be willing to make if they had the means to turn Washington D.C. or Manhattan into a smoking glass crater.


The point is they don't have that capability. Right now Iran is a local problem for the countries living near them . Those countries are more than capable of taking out Iran's ability to produce a ICBM type weapon. Why does it always have to be us ?

Maybe if the people that live in those areas where there are problems would band together they could change their lives rather than calling on the USA every time something doesn't go like they want it.

If nobody acts and Iran does get the ability to launch an ICBM at the USA we are more than capable of defending ourselves from them.

They not only don't have the means, they don't have the desire. I notice a tendancy of people in America to attempt to turn our enemies into cartoon supervillains. Iran isn't mindlessly evil, and they certainly aren't going to risk having their entire country obliterated just to blow up an American city. Iran isn't crazy, and they aren't stupid.