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Question To Be Or Not To Be involved in FB sprints

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Should we continue to participate in Formula BOINC sprints

  • YES

    Votes: 2 14.3%
  • NO

    Votes: 12 85.7%

  • Total voters
    14
  • Poll closed .

Icecold

Senior member
Nov 15, 2004
733
596
136
Clarification please. What team was bunkering early with prior knowledge ? TSBT ? And what team is Megacruncher and DavidBAM part of ? And what team is Natalia on ? and who is the commitee member, and what team do they work on ?

I am just trying to put teams on these names, and figure out who did wrong.
It's a pretty long story(putting it mildly), but I'll give a basic 'facts only' rundown and try to avoid any spin. Formula BOINC this year asked volunteers for a committee they were forming which would contact projects ahead of time to confirm their willingness to be part of a sprint, make sure projects were suitable, etc. This was to solve some of the issues ran into previously where projects had no idea they would be chosen as the sprint project, and may not have tasks available, or their server is unable to handle a sprint, etc. Systemviper (from Xtreme Systems), Megacruncher (from TSBT), Fardringle (from us - TAAT), and Timbo (UK BOINC Team) were the only volunteers for the committee. The committee voted on Sidock the first sprint which went well. They voted for ODLK for this 2nd sprint, which is a project where their server is something similar to a Raspberry Pi on a residential internet connection. It is a project that has performance issues on a normal day, and can only have 450,000 tasks(that take ~15 minutes each) in progress at a time, so it's totally unsuitable in its current form for a sprint.

As teams were fighting over the available tasks(bear in mind it can only have around 450,000 total in progress at a time), it was noticed that Megacruncher, who was a member of the committee and would have known ODLK was the sprint project well in advance, had a large number(several thousand) of in progress ODLK tasks on his computers that had been downloaded well before the sprint was announced(~2 days prior for a large amount of the tasks). That was brought up on the Formula BOINC forum, and while there was a bunch of heated back and forth on that between members of TAAT saying it was cheating, and members of TSBT and Megacruncher saying it was "marathoning" ODLK, not bunkering for the sprint. While this was happening, Natalia, who is the project scientist of ODLK posted on the Formula BOINC forum(which I had nothing to do with) a post from another team(LAF)'s forum where they had identified that David Bam (a member of TSBT) had something like 80,000 tasks bunkered around the same time that Megacruncher had downloaded his tasks. It was suggested by some members that David BAM had likely been told by Megacruncher that ODLK would be the sprint project, because most BOINC users were aware that ODLK would not be suitable for a sprint, and would not have speculatively bunkered that project knowing it was unlikely to be a sprint.

This turned into a ton of back and forth, Sebastien who is in charge of Formula BOINC stated "I'm sick of complaints and cheat accusations " without addressing that a committee member had bunkered tasks ahead of time, and it all devolved into a really negative situation all around. Megacruncher resigned the committee position. People were being very hostile to Natalia, the project scientist from ODLK, and placing blame on the project being underpowered for causing everything. This prompted this thread because it seemed clear a lot of people on the TeAm were pretty fed up with a competition that has what was seen as having rampant unethical behavior in it, so it was put to a vote.

While that was happening, I guess TSBT members were reading this thread where I explained my thoughts on staying or not staying in Formula BOINC, and members of TSBT started talking negatively about the TeAm and also me specifically in a public thread on their forum, calling me a weasel, etc. which was what I replied to in the post you quoted. They seem to think that I personally was behind the entire thing, while what really happened was I simply weighed in on the Formula BOINC thread as they were trying to downplay what happened. This is why I suggested crowdfunding a subscription to Hooked on Phonics(a reading program for children that have trouble reading) for them, since it seemed like they were having issues with reading comprehension.
 

Markfw

CPU Moderator, VC&G Moderator, Elite Member
Super Moderator
May 16, 2002
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It's a pretty long story(putting it mildly), but I'll give a basic 'facts only' rundown and try to avoid any spin. Formula BOINC this year asked volunteers for a committee they were forming which would contact projects ahead of time to confirm their willingness to be part of a sprint, make sure projects were suitable, etc. This was to solve some of the issues ran into previously where projects had no idea they would be chosen as the sprint project, and may not have tasks available, or their server is unable to handle a sprint, etc. Systemviper (from Xtreme Systems), Megacruncher (from TSBT), Fardringle (from us - TAAT), and Timbo (UK BOINC Team) were the only volunteers for the committee. The committee voted on Sidock the first sprint which went well. They voted for ODLK for this 2nd sprint, which is a project where their server is something similar to a Raspberry Pi on a residential internet connection. It is a project that has performance issues on a normal day, and can only have 450,000 tasks(that take ~15 minutes each) in progress at a time, so it's totally unsuitable in its current form for a sprint.

As teams were fighting over the available tasks(bear in mind it can only have around 450,000 total in progress at a time), it was noticed that Megacruncher, who was a member of the committee and would have known ODLK was the sprint project well in advance, had a large number(several thousand) of in progress ODLK tasks on his computers that had been downloaded well before the sprint was announced(~2 days prior for a large amount of the tasks). That was brought up on the Formula BOINC forum, and while there was a bunch of heated back and forth on that between members of TAAT saying it was cheating, and members of TSBT and Megacruncher saying it was "marathoning" ODLK, not bunkering for the sprint. While this was happening, Natalia, who is the project scientist of ODLK posted on the Formula BOINC forum(which I had nothing to do with) a post from another team(LAF)'s forum where they had identified that David Bam (a member of TSBT) had something like 80,000 tasks bunkered around the same time that Megacruncher had downloaded his tasks. It was suggested by some members that David BAM had likely been told by Megacruncher that ODLK would be the sprint project, because most BOINC users were aware that ODLK would not be suitable for a sprint, and would not have speculatively bunkered that project knowing it was unlikely to be a sprint.

This turned into a ton of back and forth, Sebastien who is in charge of Formula BOINC stated "I'm sick of complaints and cheat accusations " without addressing that a committee member had bunkered tasks ahead of time, and it all devolved into a really negative situation all around. Megacruncher resigned the committee position. People were being very hostile to Natalia, the project scientist from ODLK, and placing blame on the project being underpowered for causing everything. This prompted this thread because it seemed clear a lot of people on the TeAm were pretty fed up with a competition that has what was seen as having rampant unethical behavior in it, so it was put to a vote.

While that was happening, I guess TSBT members were reading this thread where I explained my thoughts on staying or not staying in Formula BOINC, and members of TSBT started talking negatively about the TeAm and also me specifically in a public thread on their forum, calling me a weasel, etc. which was what I replied to in the post you quoted. They seem to think that I personally was behind the entire thing, while what really happened was I simply weighed in on the Formula BOINC thread as they were trying to downplay what happened. This is why I suggested crowdfunding a subscription to Hooked on Phonics(a reading program for children that have trouble reading) for them, since it seemed like they were having issues with reading comprehension.
Thanks for the clarification. So correct me if I am wrong, summation. 2 Members of TSBT, one of which was on the committee started bunkering before it was announced, and told another team member about it, on a project with limited tasks. So they are the bad guys. XS just quit Formula BOINC since they were sick of all the arguing.

Did I get it right ?
 

Icecold

Senior member
Nov 15, 2004
733
596
136
Thanks for the clarification. So correct me if I am wrong, summation. 2 Members of TSBT, one of which was on the committee started bunkering before it was announced, and told another team member about it, on a project with limited tasks. So they are the bad guys. XS just quit Formula BOINC since they were sick of all the arguing.

Did I get it right ?
Essentially, yeah. The only thing i would clarify is that there is no way to be certain that the committee member told another team member about it, but that is the conclusion some people were coming to. TSBT had publicly posted that the other team member started bunkering when they saw the committee member running the project, as a just in case it was chosen type thing, but you can make your own judgement call on if it's likely or unlikely anybody would bunker ~80,000 tasks on a project that is very unlikely to be chosen as the sprint since it is widely known as unsuitable for a sprint just in case it's chosen.

I'm also not sure why XS just quit Formula BOINC, but being sick of the arguing is plausible.
 

cellarnoise

Member
Mar 22, 2017
149
93
101
Gnat fart here. I love that you all love this stuff!

I plan on slowly adding GPU and CPU hardware over the years, when it is available, if ever again :( If rumors' are true we will be Jonesin (SP?) for Apple hardware soon? Crazy, though the first PowerPC chips looked good and a buddy had one. I remember we worked on setting it up as a SLOW webserver (like 26k modem?) and slowly rendering animated 3D stuff on it very slow. Good times and around 1996? That is another subject to freak out about for another day. IBM and other "think" tanks are so needed now and into the future!

After reading posts on multiple forums that seem to be slowly dying :( I trust most of you here!?

If whatever mythical race interests me going forward I "might" try and remember how to add or change projects. Most likely it will be medical or something of value to me I guess. So let me know on this sub-forum and I will likely ask many stupid questions on how to do project changing or bunkering or instances or automating this sheet / stuff! :)

Until the "Sprints" gets figured out I am out. Not that a "Gnat in the Wind" means much!

Keep on crunching for the good!
 

lane42

Diamond Member
Sep 3, 2000
5,569
481
126
Isn't XS and TSBT the teams that guy's jump back and forth
every sprint between there teams ?. Why do they do that.
 

StefanR5R

Elite Member
Dec 10, 2016
4,014
4,369
136
@lane42, there are three levels of more or less commonly applied opportunistic tactics:
  • For some big contests such as Pentathlon, several users used to pick one out of certain teams to join for the duration of the contest, i.e. concentrated their effort on one team only, even if it means leaving their own home team by the wayside. (Their home team may or may not have signed up for the contest in the first place.)
  • In Formula Boinc sprints and marathons, several users routinely start running for what might be called their individual home team, and as soon as that team appeared to have locked in its rank, they switch over to one other team out of those which these users support, and try to improve the rank of that other team — any time during the contest. In rare cases, there were contests in which some users flip-flopped between teams several times while the contest went on.
  • Also in Formula Boinc, a small number of users performs the most opportunistic level of team switching: They dump resources into entirely unaffiliated teams.
    Example situation: SETI.Germany (who ignore Formula Boinc) threaten the Cosmology@home marathon rank of TeAm AnandTech but not the overall rank of TSBT. TeAm AnandTech threatens the overall rank of TSBT. TSBT does not compete in the Cosmo marathon. Now, some TSBT supporters speculated that the next sprint could be Cosmology@home, ran this offline before the sprint announcement, but a different project was announced for that sprint. Instead of improving TSBT in the Cosmo marathon with the now superfluous Cosmo results, they dump the results into SG, SG thus overtakes TAAT (for a short while), and thus TAAT loses some overall points (for a while), indirectly strengthening TSBT's standing (for a while). Effectively, the strength of SG had been tapped in in order to make up for a weakness of TSBT, in this example.
Everybody has their own view on whether or not any one of these three levels of opportunistic behavior is counting as sportsmanship or not.

More specifically to your question: Many users of XS and TSBT (and SETI.USA) use the 1st tactic. A few users of XS, a small number of users of SUSA (lately mostly just one or none), and most if not all of TSBT engaged in the 2nd level of opportunism. And finally, a subset of this group of users routinely applies the 3rd level. (Other users of other teams have been using any of these tactics occasionally as well, of course; including TeAm AnandTech members (edit, perhaps; I don't really watch that closely who is doing what when where). It is not unique to the mentioned three teams at all, but as I said, it is routine to some of the users in these three teams.)

Relevant to the topic of this thread: Especially in 2020, the part of TeAm AnandTech who was active in Formuly Boinc competed primarily against teams which had frequent team switchers in them. I think I can say we knew from the outset what we were up against, and we brought our 2020 Formula Boinc engagement to a very successful conclusion regardless. For me personally, this type of challenge was — to put it in the best possible light — interesting from a technical/ tactical perspective, yet I concluded for myself that this sort of training is OK doing maybe for half a year but I don't need to be stuck in it longer term.

PS,
not in my list above is another form of team switching:
  • For a special occasion, a user guest-crunches for a friend team rather than his own.
This one is not in the list above because it typically is not done for tactics and out of opportunism. It's a grey area between this one and the 1st level on the above list though.
 
Last edited:

Fardringle

Diamond Member
Oct 23, 2000
8,931
497
126
Gnat fart here. I love that you all love this stuff!

I plan on slowly adding GPU and CPU hardware over the years, when it is available, if ever again :( If rumors' are true we will be Jonesin (SP?) for Apple hardware soon? Crazy, though the first PowerPC chips looked good and a buddy had one. I remember we worked on setting it up as a SLOW webserver (like 26k modem?) and slowly rendering animated 3D stuff on it very slow. Good times and around 1996? That is another subject to freak out about for another day. IBM and other "think" tanks are so needed now and into the future!

After reading posts on multiple forums that seem to be slowly dying :( I trust most of you here!?

If whatever mythical race interests me going forward I "might" try and remember how to add or change projects. Most likely it will be medical or something of value to me I guess. So let me know on this sub-forum and I will likely ask many stupid questions on how to do project changing or bunkering or instances or automating this sheet / stuff! :)

Until the "Sprints" gets figured out I am out. Not that a "Gnat in the Wind" means much!

Keep on crunching for the good!
Never underestimate the potential power of a properly aimed gnat fart! I've heard that a butterfly wing in China can create a hurricane in the Atlantic Ocean. So a gnat fart in the basement at the very least should be able to produce a tornado or two... ;)
 
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scole

Junior Member
Apr 17, 2016
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Essentially, yeah. The only thing i would clarify is that there is no way to be certain that the committee member told another team member about it, but that is the conclusion some people were coming to. TSBT had publicly posted that the other team member started bunkering when they saw the committee member running the project, as a just in case it was chosen type thing, but you can make your own judgement call on if it's likely or unlikely anybody would bunker ~80,000 tasks on a project that is very unlikely to be chosen as the sprint since it is widely known as unsuitable for a sprint just in case it's chosen.

I'm also not sure why XS just quit Formula BOINC, but being sick of the arguing is plausible.
And I'm sick of you droning on about it.

davidBAM had no prior knowledge ODLK would be chosen. It's easy to bunker for projects. If ODLK wasn't chosen he was going to run it for marathon points after the Sprint as was Megacruncher. You and Taat may not have pointed out davidBAM but you certainly poured gasoline on an ember. Megacruncher feels terrible for his decision to crunch ODLK but he had no idea anyone would assume ODLK was going to be the sprint project. He was running open so anyone who saw him running ODLK could have made the same guess, There were 3 other TSBT crunchers who accounted for over 150k WUs, all completed as were davidBAM's and Megacruncher's. We just try harder and bunker better than you do. So does P3DN, but you didn't mention them.
 

Markfw

CPU Moderator, VC&G Moderator, Elite Member
Super Moderator
May 16, 2002
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And I'm sick of you droning on about it.

davidBAM had no prior knowledge ODLK would be chosen. It's easy to bunker for projects. If ODLK wasn't chosen he was going to run it for marathon points after the Sprint as was Megacruncher. You and Taat may not have pointed out davidBAM but you certainly poured gasoline on an ember. Megacruncher feels terrible for his decision to crunch ODLK but he had no idea anyone would assume ODLK was going to be the sprint project. He was running open so anyone who saw him running ODLK could have made the same guess, There were 3 other TSBT crunchers who accounted for over 150k WUs, all completed as were davidBAM's and Megacruncher's. We just try harder and bunker better than you do. So does P3DN, but you didn't mention them.
OK, what team are you on again ? I want to be sure to bunker and kick your ass. I have 1000 CPU cores (mostly EPYC) and I will show you the real meaning of bunkering if you are going to insult our team.
 
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scole

Junior Member
Apr 17, 2016
13
3
81
OK, what team are you on again ? I want to be sure to bunker and kick your ass. I have 1000 CPU cores (mostly EPYC) and I will show you the real meaning of bunkering if you are going to insult our team.
I'm on TSBT the best, most nimble and skillful team.
 

Markfw

CPU Moderator, VC&G Moderator, Elite Member
Super Moderator
May 16, 2002
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I'm on TSBT the best, most nimble and skillful team.
Well, you just pissed off the wrong guy. Oh, and I have 18 video cards, 6 2080TI's and a 3070, so its not just CPU horsepower.

Way to be an asshole and insult people you have no idea about.

Edit: and my heritage is Scottish, but you make me embarrassed to be called a scott.
 
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crashtech

Diamond Member
Jan 4, 2013
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And I'm sick of you droning on about it.

davidBAM had no prior knowledge ODLK would be chosen. It's easy to bunker for projects. If ODLK wasn't chosen he was going to run it for marathon points after the Sprint as was Megacruncher. You and Taat may not have pointed out davidBAM but you certainly poured gasoline on an ember. Megacruncher feels terrible for his decision to crunch ODLK but he had no idea anyone would assume ODLK was going to be the sprint project. He was running open so anyone who saw him running ODLK could have made the same guess, There were 3 other TSBT crunchers who accounted for over 150k WUs, all completed as were davidBAM's and Megacruncher's. We just try harder and bunker better than you do. So does P3DN, but you didn't mention them.
You should post here more often, it can only help prove our point and help us recruit.
 

Icecold

Senior member
Nov 15, 2004
733
596
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And I'm sick of you droning on about it.

davidBAM had no prior knowledge ODLK would be chosen. It's easy to bunker for projects. If ODLK wasn't chosen he was going to run it for marathon points after the Sprint as was Megacruncher. You and Taat may not have pointed out davidBAM but you certainly poured gasoline on an ember. Megacruncher feels terrible for his decision to crunch ODLK but he had no idea anyone would assume ODLK was going to be the sprint project. He was running open so anyone who saw him running ODLK could have made the same guess, There were 3 other TSBT crunchers who accounted for over 150k WUs, all completed as were davidBAM's and Megacruncher's. We just try harder and bunker better than you do. So does P3DN, but you didn't mention them.
It was directly in response to somebody from our team asking what happened. Of all the things I've posted, I really think that what I posted yesterday as a 'TLDR' of the events that occurred stuck pretty much to the facts and was pretty mild, so I'm surprised what was what you decided to quote.

I didn't post this in the FB forum because (contrary to how it appeared) I actually wasn't trying to pour gasoline on the fire any more than there already was, but have you looked at Megacruncher's host list from that time? Now that things have calmed down a bit, did you actually ever look at the host list? This is a screenshot from the night the sprint was about to start - look at how many hosts were 'last contact: before the sprint was announced' Megacruncher wasn't running open. If he was, he would have had a lot more points in the days leading up to the planned sprint. Megacruncher probably has comparable hardware to what I have(maybe even more?), and I settled in around 275,000 PPD after a couple days - look at his last 60 days on Boincstats - https://www.boincstats.com/stats/177/user/detail/3955/lastDays

I said before that I don't have any assumption of Megacruncher's intent. Nobody knows Megacruncher's intent, other than Megacruncher. But how do you look at that, and say that he was running open?
 
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Icecold

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Nov 15, 2004
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As far as P3D goes(or any other team), if I ever noticed them doing something super shady, I would call them out the same as I would TSBT or anybody else. If I noticed somebody on our own team doing something shady, I would call them out the same as I would TSBT or anybody else. Somehow it only ever is an issue with you guys though. We all knew ODLK had a task limit and wasn't suitable as a sprint, we all similarly argued about the same thing back in October, how the heck did it end up as a sprint? What is so wrong about having a fair competition?
 

Markfw

CPU Moderator, VC&G Moderator, Elite Member
Super Moderator
May 16, 2002
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As far as P3D goes(or any other team), if I ever noticed them doing something super shady, I would call them out the same as I would TSBT or anybody else. If I noticed somebody on our own team doing something shady, I would call them out the same as I would TSBT or anybody else. Somehow it only ever is an issue with you guys though. We all knew ODLK had a task limit and wasn't suitable as a sprint, we all similarly argued about the same thing back in October, how the heck did it end up as a sprint? What is so wrong about having a fair competition?
After his post to me, its obvious that they are just assholes. and I will treat them as that from now on. And cheaters, liars and scumbags.
 

scole

Junior Member
Apr 17, 2016
13
3
81
Thanks for the clarification. So correct me if I am wrong, summation. 2 Members of TSBT, one of which was on the committee started bunkering before it was announced, and told another team member about it, on a project with limited tasks. So they are the bad guys. XS just quit Formula BOINC since they were sick of all the arguing.

Did I get it right ?
Nope. davidBAM had no prior knowledge ODLK would be chosen.

I know Megacruncher's intent and it was not to cheat. Did he feel it was OK start running ODLK. Yes he did and he admits it was an error in judgement. The rest of us in the top 5 had no knowledge, we started loading after 3:00 UTC on the 25th and we managed to get over 150K wus. I'll prove it if it you'll stop the accusations.
 

Markfw

CPU Moderator, VC&G Moderator, Elite Member
Super Moderator
May 16, 2002
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Nope. davidBAM had no prior knowledge ODLK would be chosen.

I know Megacruncher's intent and it was not to cheat. Did he feel it was OK start running ODLK. Yes he did and he admits it was an error in judgement. The rest of us in the top 5 had no knowledge, we started loading after 3:00 UTC on the 25th and we managed to get over 150K wus. I'll prove it if it you'll stop the accusations.
I don't have time to prove you right. If Icecold or some other member assures me it was OK, then I will quit with the accusations.
 

Icecold

Senior member
Nov 15, 2004
733
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AFAIK nobody ever accused the rest of TSBT of prebunkering based on knowing the sprint, or of not completing what they bunkered. Everybody's computers were hidden other than DavidBAM and Megacruncher's, so even if anybody may have thought it there would have been no way to know or prove it. If that is what you're trying to prove here, why not just have the top 5 unhide their computers on ODLK?
 

Icecold

Senior member
Nov 15, 2004
733
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I don't have time to prove you right. If Icecold or some other member assures me it was OK, then I will quit with the accusations.
Ultimately, the facts are-

1. Megacruncher bunkered a bunch of ODLK before the sprint was announced, and had prior knowledge that ODLK would be chosen as the sprint since he was part of the committee.

2. DavidBAM also bunkered a very large amount of ODLK prior to the sprint announcement.

Everybody can draw their own conclusions from there, but I would argue that point 1 was cheating regardless of whether that was Megacruncher's intention. Point 2, nobody can know 100% if DavidBAM was told about the sprint. Even if it went down the way Scole says(that DavidBAM noticed Megacruncher running ODLK, and loaded up on tasks thinking it may be the sprint) that is still really sketch because it means that DavidBAM thought it was likely Megacruncher who was on the committee was running the sprint project prior to it being announced.

So, I guess my point being there's no "proof" Scole can provide that would change the facts or make me 'assure you it was okay' or anything like that - it definitely was sketch no matter how it all happened or whatever Scole provides. If they unhide their computers, it could be proven or disproven whether any other members also prebunkered, though.

After his post to me, its obvious that they are just assholes. and I will treat them as that from now on. And cheaters, liars and scumbags.
There's about 16 pages on the Formula BOINC forum alone spread across a few threads(like I said, a very long story) of me arguing with all of them about this stuff, and their tactics in Formula BOINC is a very large part of why every member of our TeAm other than one has voted to no longer participate in Formula BOINC sprints any more.. so I can't say I disagree with you.
 
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crashtech

Diamond Member
Jan 4, 2013
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Nope. davidBAM had no prior knowledge ODLK would be chosen.

I know Megacruncher's intent and it was not to cheat. Did he feel it was OK start running ODLK. Yes he did and he admits it was an error in judgement. The rest of us in the top 5 had no knowledge, we started loading after 3:00 UTC on the 25th and we managed to get over 150K wus. I'll prove it if it you'll stop the accusations.
Your post leaves us some choices, either you are deluded, complicit, or oblivious. The timeline and evidence does not leave anything to the imagination. Megacruncher resigned, without comment or defense. Therefore, sod off.
 

scole

Junior Member
Apr 17, 2016
13
3
81
Isn't XS and TSBT the teams that guy's jump back and forth
every sprint between there teams ?. Why do they do that.
Sometimes. The same way members from Overclockers UK, HardOCP and your team jump back and forth.

Your post leaves us some choices, either you are deluded, complicit, or oblivious. The timeline and evidence does not leave anything to the imagination. Megacruncher resigned, without comment or defense. Therefore, sod off.
More accusations. I've already explained what happened with Megacruncher and davidBAM and I've proven other members were able to get plenty of work loading up the project was announced. Megacruncher didn't resign without comment or defense. He explained all to the sprint committee before he resigned and said all seemed ok about it. Ask Fardingle.
 
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