Question To Be Or Not To Be involved in FB sprints

[Orange Kid]

Ok, so I guess I am the one to blame for dragging us down the FB sprint rabbit hole..........

So I have put up a pole to see if we would like to continue playing or not. It has a 7 day time limit.

There are other challenges out there to participate in. WCG has challenges from time to time as well as PG and the Pentathalon. I am sure more can be found if we look.

Votes and thoughts are welcome.

 

[Fardringle]

I'm on the sprints committee and I don't think I can say 100% yes at this point.

We've already had documented evidence of cheating by a committee member and their teammate on the first sprint where it was possible to cheat, and the other two members of the committee seem to be perfectly fine with it, going so far as to refuse to acknowledge that it even MIGHT have happened.

I still like the competition aspect, but when the folks in charge appear to be encouraging cheating, it's hard to want to continue to participate. I'm going to stick with it a bit longer in the hope that this will serve as a wake up call to sort things out. The next sprint is about a week away, so I guess I'll make up my mind by then, and I'll let the rest of you know if the committee side of the situation improves or not.

 

[emoga]

I'm going to take a break from Formula Boinc. It's a circus.
I'll be up for any TeAm hosted challenge or perhaps a 'project of the month' contest if anyone wants to organize one.
But the toxicity stemming from FB and what the boinc community has become makes me question why I even cared for it in the first place.

 

[Markfw]

Cheating, and encouraging cheating takes all the fun out it it, and I won't tolerate it. I do WCG, Rosetta and F@H due to the medical nature of the projects, and I went all in on the sidock once I realized it was medical also. But anything else, I have to be asked to do, and may not even participate. I did one primegrid, just to see what me 5950x would do, and I learned some things. In general, I think I am not happy with FB, and I voted against it.

 

[Icecold]

I'm reserving my vote for a few days from now when things have calmed down, but I wonder if the poll should be whether should we be involved as a team in FB at all.

I might feel differently if people from some other teams were to acknowledge what happened and try to make meaningful changes to ensure it doesn't happen moving forward, but that hasn't happened at all. As long as the main teams we're competing against are okay with the type of stuff that happened then I have no interest in competing with them in anything.

I've justified it in my mind for awhile that some of the unethical behavior(cheating, essentially) we've observed(such as Scole creating a ton of fake high core instances on Wanless and letting all the tasks expire over and over so nobody else's tasks would validate to the point of being temp banned from the project) was not known by everybody on those teams. My thought process being "well, maybe _____ is shady, and _____ definitely cheated in ______, but _______ posts on our forum sometimes and seems like they're just trying to have fun and compete", but it's clear based on nobody speaking up against the clear and obvious cheating by Megacruncher that nobody on those teams are interested in a fair competition. If they are, they are not willing to go against their team to speak up for what is right, which is still unacceptable.

Even something as simple as Megacruncher coming out yesterday and saying something like "you know what, I bunkered ahead of time, I really didn't want to get up ass early the morning of the sprint announcement, I didn't think it would be a huge deal to do it the couple days before but obviously I messed up" would have went a long way to calm everything down. But that is not what happened, they're adamant that he was just "marathoning" ODLK 2 days before the sprint announcement despite knowing it was the sprint project and barely turning any tasks in and bunkering 57 instances. He is nowhere to be found, he resigned and everybody is adamant it's because he's so honorable. There has been zero acknowledgement of fault from anybody on any of those teams, and they're doubling down on what any reasonable person would agree is totally against the spirit o the FB committee.

Ultimately this type of stuff is what has driven people away from the FB competition and makes it difficult to get new users to stick with BOINC competitions. I have been on multiple forums today where people are having the same polls or discussing what we are as far as if they should even bother any more. It's a real shame too because the first sprint had a ton of participation and was close until the end - it really was a very fun sprint. Then this happens, and nobody from XS or TSBT has acknowledged it's wrong, and acts like we're complete idiots for bringing it up.

 

[Endgame124]

I abstained from voting since I’ve only done like 3 sprints. Generally with a 3 day race, I don’t bother switching my hosts, but if it hits the right time I will. I was considering devoting my 5950 to FB, but if teams are cheating enough to damage real research I’ll pass and leave my stuff on Rosetta / WCG / F@H and participate on the other contests.

 

[Icecold]

I abstained from voting since I’ve only done like 3 sprints. Generally with a 3 day race, I don’t bother switching my hosts, but if it hits the right time I will. I was considering devoting my 5950 to FB, but if teams are cheating enough to damage real research I’ll pass and leave my stuff on Rosetta / WCG / F@H and participate on the other contests.

There are some redeeming qualities to FB. The sprint format gives you a lot of opportunities to run different projects you may not decide to run otherwise. Probably overall FB is a net positive for the projects contained in it, but there were at least a few times last year where it really caused some short term detriment to the project selected for the sprint, or a couple projects at the end of the year where everybody was running marathons basically like mini sprints.

There were a lot of fun and exciting moments last year during FB, but there is definitely way more anti competitiveness and negativity surrounding it than there should be which can have a negative impact on the projects. I'm not sure if that is something that happened along the way or if it's always been like that, but that's how it was last year and how it is currently.

It seemed like there were some positive changes happening this year with the new format with the sprint committee and everything, but it only took until the second sprint of the year for it to all seemingly unravel.

 

[crashtech]

FB has been on thin ice for quite a while, as far as I'm concerned. The latest post where Sebastien dismissed any accusations of cheating pushed me over the edge. I'm done.

 

[cellarnoise]

I like the idea of races, both long or short. Personally, I am not interested in projects that are not medical in nature at this time. The DC project needs to have some personal value to me. Maybe other things will, but for example finding Primes, etc. does not do anything for me.

I don't mind being able to bunker either as long as it is a level playing field.

If there is other cheating going on or lack of work on a project, I am not interested. I don't even know of all of the ways that cheating can happen, but knowing the "race" project beforehand, or blocking work units is not acceptable.

 

[Orange Kid]

After receiving a request from Tim over at FB to redo the way I am posting in the sprint thread I have decide to no longer participate in any of the sprints.

I shall remove the list of sprints. If someone wants to start a new thread for FB feel free to do so.

edit for speeling

 

[VietOZ]

First, i want to apologize for off topic.
But I want to clear up something.

There has been zero acknowledgement of fault from anybody on any of those teams, and they're doubling down on what any reasonable person would agree

Then this happens, and nobody from XS or TSBT has acknowledged it's wrong, and acts like we're complete idiots for bringing it up.

@Icecold what do you want XS to acknowledged? What did we do? When you've said "those teams" who are you referring to?

Edit: typo

 

[Icecold]

First, i want to apologize for off topic.
But I want to clear up something.



@Icecold what do you want XS to acknowledged? What did we do? When you've said "those teams" who are you referring to?

Edit: typo

I didn't think i needed to specify, but i meant specifically XS and TSBT. Honestly, if anybody from XS or TSBT would have just been honest when it was noticed(even a "yeah dude that's not cool man you can't prebunker when you're on the committee"), this whole thing probably would have blown up way less. If you guys didn't want to be associated with TSBT, your entire team shouldn't have switched to TSBT in December to try to keep them ahead of us in FB. I could have missed it in the 13 pages or whatever of FB forum back and forth, but even if you guys weren't affiliated with TSBT it would be nice to have even a little bit of backup if something screwed up is noticed since you guys are as active as anybody in FB and the FB forum. Crashtech, from our team, had posted well before the sprint happened that he was concerned about the committee knowing the project ahead of time, and Systemviper tore into him about it on the FB forum. Where is Systemviper after it comes to fruition even with a "damn this is bad, I'm sure you didn't mean anything by it Mega but you shouldn't be downloading tasks before the sprint is announced"? I have no idea if you have a FB forum account, but a "damn man I'm drunk AF but you should have waited until it was announced" would have went far if so. Instead, others from XS call us whiners, and it's always the same people from TAAT that are mad that they didn't get all the tasks, etc. etc. Oz - you know as well as I do that I would never want an ODLK sprint, we all know there are only 450,000 tasks, and last time ODLK was chosen it turned into a shit show with a ton of back and forth and me and you arguing on this forum about it. I know everybody knows, because there are pages on several forums of me posting memes about it and people telling me to F off. There is 0 "Oh man I wish I had grabbed all the tasks before they did, but they're better than us and I'm mad" as it's being portrayed. Nearly every single response on that forum expects us to believe that Megacruncher was "marathoning" for 1 or 2 days before the sprint, out of nowhere having not ran it in a long time, with 57 instances, and there's no way he crunched any of those before the sprint announcement, he definitely just had them on his PC waiting to crunch, but it was definitely because he was marathoning not because he planned on prebunkering the sprint with advanced knowledge. I will never believe that, not in a million years ,and no matter how much gaslighting happens to convince us that it's okay he had 57 instances loaded with tasks many of which started before the sprint was announced I will never believe that.

For the record, I have no reason to think anybody on XS did anything unethical in this sprint. I didn't look at your guys's computers or tasks or anything, I never went looking for any of this, I was just poking at a few tasks that I had uploaded that weren't validated and noticed they all belonged to megacruncher. Which led to wondering how many tasks he had, "wow he got a lot, that's cool", "wait one minute these are from before the damn sprint was announced". And then, despite this whole thing being pushed as a TAAT vs TSBT narrative, other teams found the David BAM stuff around the same time and posted it.

 

[Icecold]

Ultimately, from my perspective the only way this competition succeeds is if the top output teams can come to a gentleman's agreement on what is acceptable and what is not and follow it. Us, and you guys and now P3D is more involved and maybe others are all high output teams with the potential output to act irresponsibly and ruin it for other teams. If you were one of 3 guys crunching on a league 2 team and you can't get any tasks you're not thinking "oh man ___ team is great they really stuck it to ____ team" you're thinking "man this competition sucks".

 

[VietOZ]

if anybody from XS or TSBT would have just been honest when it was noticed

Honest about what? XS doesn't know anything just like everyone else until y'all started to questioning Mega on FB's forum. I immediately think to myself, "shit, I've got quite a few. If I release my bunkers now, Systemviper will also be in the question". I don't have an account at FB yet, so I posted on ODLK's forum right around the Sprint started. That I have unhide my hosts and y'all can look at the time or whatever before I unload them. Initially i was going to just leave it open for an hour, but I left mine open for a whole day. I'm sure some have already looked at mine. SaM (stoneageman) did the same.

I have no idea if you have a FB forum account

I registered last night and still waiting for approval.

For the record, I have no reason to think anybody on XS did anything unethical in this sprint. I didn't look at your guys's computers or tasks or anything

Then why did you dragged us into it? The way you said is like we also in it and want us to admit something we didn't do?
If you found something we did was wrong, I'll be the first to apology. a few XS members, including myself, and a few TSBT are friends, but that doesn't mean we do everything together. The way you dragging us into this is not cool

I will not comment on whatever had happened and who's right who's wrong. I just know XS didn't do anything wrong in this one and most have been on the sideline. So if you could, please leave us alone. Stop accusing us shit that we didn't do.

 

[Icecold]

I never accused XS of wrongdoing during the sprint or prebunkering based on knowing the committee vote. I'm not in front of a computer so I'm not going to go looking for posts to copy paste here from the FB forum but the narrative pushed was that nothing happened, we're whiners, etc including posts by Bluestang and Pecos. You guys switch back and forth so much I don't know who is specifically XS or not but I thought Bluestang and Pecos were.

They say a man is known by the company he keeps -THAT is all I'm "accusing" XS of. Rather than show some integrity and say "I know we're friends with TSBT but this is clearly sketch" people were defending the actions.

 

[VietOZ]

For the record, Pecos left XS at the beginning of the year. Not saying he's not our friend, just that he decided to join TSBT and we respected his decision.

Rather than show some integrity and say "I know we're friends with TSBT but this is clearly sketch" people were defending the actions.

we didn't even know what was happened and how accurate the info was. Show some integrity? like go ahead and accusing them first then figure shit out later? We ain't gonna do that.
So stay silence because it's a sensitive matter involved with our friends, and we weren't sure what had happened, has no integrity? c'mon man
Like i've said, do what you do. Don't drag us into this.

 

[Skillz]

I never once dragged XS into the mix. Read all my posts. They are directed directly at Megacruncher, Davidbam and by association TSBT.

Yet, XS members are replying to me telling me I am wrong and they did nothing wrong.

I didn't know pecos switched to TSBT fully, but even then I never addressed XS as a whole, only the members who responded to me.

 

[Skillz]

With that being said, I voted no. I haven't participated in FB at all this year and I don't plan to.

 

[VietOZ]

I never once dragged XS into the mix. Read all my posts. They are directed directly at Megacruncher, Davidbam and by association TSBT.

Yet, XS members are replying to me telling me I am wrong and they did nothing wrong.

I didn't know pecos switched to TSBT fully, but even then I never addressed XS as a whole, only the members who responded to me.

I also never once saying you did. I was discussing it with @Icecold with his post above. I didn't and I won't discuss things at FB's forum because i'm not fully understand the situation and it's none of my business to judge. Read my posts again, i quoted specifically @Icecold and not mentioned anyone else.

 

[Skillz]

I also never once saying you did. I was discussing it with @Icecold with his post above. I didn't and I won't discuss things at FB's forum because i'm not fully understand the situation and it's none of my business to judge. Read my posts again, i quoted specifically @Icecold and not mentioned anyone else.

I know you wasn't talking about me specifically. However, I was the main one over there providing the proof of the events that occured. I just wanted to make sure it was known that I never brought XS into it.

 

[StefanR5R]

Back when Sébastien announced that he would establish an organizer committee for Formula BOINC season 2021, I privately told some team mates that I would most likely not participate in FB 2021 if I don't trust, or in fact, merely don't know whether or not to trust in the judgment and integrity of the committee members.

Meanwhile, a majority of the committee members decided for an ODLK sprint. All of the committee members must have known how the October 2020 attempt at starting an ODLK sprint went.¹ Therefore, the action of the majority of the committee cannot be adequately explained by stupidity; I have to attribute it to malice.

I.e., I don't even have to wonder anymore whether or not to trust the judgment and integrity of (the majority of the remaining) committee members. It is clear to me now whether or not I shall participate in FB 2021. Well, one of the committee members left now, but I suppose the others who I distrust will remain.


____________
¹) For those who weren't there: Several team captains voted for ODLK as next sprint project. During and after the voting period, for a whole week before the sprint date, a handful of users halted ODLK's work generator, by maintaining a sufficiently high number of tasks in progress. That is, they created a denial of service to the detriment of their potential competitors. Their stunt misfired though, since a project which has no tasks ready to send would not be selected for a sprint. The sprint went to NumberFields instead, which was second by captains' votes.

 

[Icecold]

For the record, Pecos left XS at the beginning of the year. Not saying he's not our friend, just that he decided to join TSBT and we respected his decision.



we didn't even know what was happened and how accurate the info was. Show some integrity? like go ahead and accusing them first then figure shit out later? We ain't gonna do that.
So stay silence because it's a sensitive matter involved with our friends, and we weren't sure what had happened, has no integrity? c'mon man
Like i've said, do what you do. Don't drag us into this.

I'm still not in front of a computer so I'll probably respond more thoroughly later but I did read back through my FB forum posts and confirmed that I never brought XS into it there. Pecos (who isn't on XS any more I guess) and Bluestang were the ones posting to Skillz and I that we were wrong. As I said before, with how often you guys go back and forth how would I know Pecos is not part of TSBT? I never accused XS of anything on that forum which is where I would have if wanting to.

Where I did bring XS into it is here, on our forum on a post asking if we should continue with Formula BOINC. I read back through what I posted and don't see where I claimed any wrongdoing by XS OTHER than TSBT being defended without merit. The only people that posted anything at all was to tell us we're wrong, etc. Not only did nobody from XS speak up to say that bunkering before the sprint with knowledge of that sprint was wrong but the only members that did chime in was to respond negatively towards us.

I stand by what I said here in the context of this thread. System viper had no issues jumping on Crashtech publicly about his concerns but is completely silent when those concerns come to fruition. Bluestang says it's the same people year after year causing issues and blaming people for cheating. Pecos says we aren't looking at it correctly even though it had time stamps right in it. Anybody could have verified what we were looking at we provided direct links to hosts etc. Had Natalia and members from a couple other teams not jumped in to ask questions this entire thing would have been brushed 100% under the rug. Timbo's first response to me about it being speculative bunkering certainly was going in that direction.

So why would I want to participate in a competition like this against competitors that don't speak up when cheating happens? Where I can't trust that we're all playing fair? I quit posting on the FB forum several pages of posts ago and am posting here in our forum about my thoughts on participating in FB. It's not like I went out if my way to call out XS publicly.

@Orange Kid please add a poll option of "yes, but on behalf of Planet 3DNow!"

 

[Icecold]

Now that I'm in front of a PC, this is specifically what I mean when I say - "As long as the main teams we're competing against are okay with the type of stuff that happened then I have no interest in competing with them in anything." and "if anybody from XS or TSBT would have just been honest when it was noticed " (bearing in mind I didn't know until earlier today that Pecos is apparently not on XS any more. There are plenty more posts like this)-

You notice how it is always the same people throwing the same accusations over the years. Not sure if its a tactic or just ignorance.

Let me try and make this easy to understand. (not my strong suit)
"Mega" was running open before the "Sprint" not "Bunkering"
Yes he was running ODLK but, was returning wu's before the start (so they don't count towards the Sprint).

After 0300 UTC he started to bunker (while still reporting those d/l'd before)

So the bunker was only wu's that you or I could have gotten.

As easy as I can make it.

I'm done in this thread. Tim is right...time to move on to the next Sprint. (and accusations by the same group of people)

The fact that these are "accusations" is absurd. You guys have the same data I do. Nobody will come out and say "yes it's fine that Megacruncher downloaded thousands of tasks and held onto them prior to the sprint announcement knowing ODLK would be the sprint based on his role on the committee. " Nobody will say that, but yet people will chip away at the truth with things like calling them accusations rather than facts, and try to undermine the character of the people that brought them up.

FWIW you know as well as I do it's not "always the same people throwing the same accusations over the years" - my first public interaction with XS or TSBT was with the same damn project ODLK in October 2020 for similar reasons. I'm sure you recall me posting a Joe Biden "will you just shut up man" meme directed at you on this forum. I didn't even participate in FB until last year. The statement of it always being the same people year after year is just a way to undermine the truth and chip away at it and make it seem like there is somehow doubt behind what is 100% factual of what Megacruncher did. The only thing in question is Megacruncher's intent, which nobody knows other than Megacruncher.

It's complete nonsense to think that you guys can hop between TSBT and XS on most competitions, but then when TSBT is caught with the hand in the cookie jar act like XS is a totally separate thing. Please, tell me which members of XS did not crunch for TSBT in December to try to keep us from beating them in FB? Even Timbo from UKBT jumped in for TSBT to crunch Primegrid in an attempt to prevent JTFranklin (whoever he is) from slapping TSBT around any more. Even the members of XS that "don't' switch" were switching. It's not just "a few of us are friends!" TSBT was doing shady things all year, you guys choose to crunch with them, that's on you not on me. Ask Scole how he got temporarily "banished" from Wanless while trying to keep all of our tasks from validating, it's a pretty funny story!

So, when Systemviper suggests we need to reach out to Gridcoin solo miners because crypto must be part of why it's hard to attract the "new generation" of BOINC competition crunchers bear in mind I made it less than a year competing against you guys, and am still undecided where it goes from here. This competition is toxic, it's not welcoming to new people, it's anti competitive at the top, and it seems inevitable that any competition TSBT is part of will eventually end up with them at the top because everybody else will bail on it because it's just not worth it. I said this same thing back in October - the anti competitive tactics(such as trying to hoard all ODLK tasks and leave none for other crunchers) will only drive people away, and the teams that do those tactics will lose any satisfaction of being "the best" or winning, because they'll just be competing against themselves.

 

[Orange Kid]

@Orange Kid please add a poll option of "yes, but on behalf of Planet 3DNow!"

I prefer not to as this is about TA doing FB as a team.

If people wish to join other teams for sprints that is their choice. I would suggest that they check with someone on the other teams first to see if they are welcome to do this though.

I would hate to see anyone leave permanently because of the problems at FB. This is still a great community and we can band together on other races and competitions.

 

[Icecold]

I prefer not to as this is about TA doing FB as a team.

If people wish to join other teams for sprints that is their choice. I would suggest that they check with someone on the other teams first to see if they are welcome to do this though.

I would hate to see anyone leave permanently because of the problems at FB. This is still a great community and we can band together on other races and competitions.

Sorry, I should have added a /Sarcasm tag at the end or a smiley or something. I was mostly joking since I knew based on VietOZ posting that XS members(at least 1) were reading this thread. And that it would be kind of funny to suggest us all jumping in on Planet 3D Now! to prevent XS from getting the number 1 spot now that Gridcoin is out. I wasn't really suggesting anybody actually does that I just didn't communicate it very well.

We're now up to 9 no votes and I haven't even voted yet, so it's looking pretty unlikely anybody here wants to continue with FB sprints but the poll is still open a few more days.