To: Atheists/Agnostics etc.

[JohnOfSheffield]

"Jesus will save us from ourselves" has turned into "Science will save us from ourselves" IMO. Both are still beliefs which is why the Atheists knocking on blind faith is so ironic.

I actually didn't think you'd be one of those idiots who thought that science is a big conspiracy.

Science is a method to gain knowledge, it's nothing else.

You remind me of Nemesis1.

 

[OverVolt]

I actually didn't think you'd be one of those idiots who thought that science is a big conspiracy.

Science is a method to gain knowledge, it's nothing else.

You remind me of Nemesis1.

Its not a big conspiracy, its just how people act.

Like I said science is a human endeavor subject to all the same problems all human endeavors face. Elevating it to mythical status is a fallacy. Science is carried out by humans and humans are inherently biased and error prone.

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

Yea because Vioxx never went to market after clinical trials, and no scientists has ever falsified research ever and all experiments are designed to give fair results.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conflict_of_interest#Examples

Not even what I was looking for but it shows the trend. Research isn't as iron clad as you think it is. Which is a really common fallacy with the Atheists crowd who apparently have blind faith in the credibility of research.

Industry funding is about 70% of all research at this point.

Science killed my mum and raped my dad.

Fasification is actually quite common, that is why science isn't static but rather ever changing with the knowledge gained.

Research into drugs is a field where there is much falsification, this is a GOOD thing, how this is used has nothing to do with science.

I don't have faith in science, that would be like having faith in carpentry, it'd be stupid.

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

Its not a big conspiracy, its just how people act.

Like I said science is a human endeavor subject to all the same problems all human endeavors face. Elevating it to mythical status is a fallacy. Science is carried out by humans and humans are inherently biased and error prone.

NO ONE is elevating it to a mythical status but YOU!

Your entire argument is one huge strawman.

 

[OverVolt]

NO ONE is elevating it to a mythical status but YOU!

Your entire argument is one huge strawman.

Not from what I see people post on this forum. I didn't create the idea I gathered it from what I see people post here on the topic of religion/science.

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

Not from what I see people post on this forum. I didn't create the idea I gathered it from what I see people post here on the topic of religion/science.

Examples would be nice.

 

[RelaxTheMind]

im getting the feeling the OP was suicidal at one point. just from reading the OP and a few of the responses where he/she extracts only certain points to respond to, also make feel like they are a typical "born again".

 

[OverVolt]

I can paraphrase.

The forum is biased toward science solving all our energy problems, they believe some huge advancement will be made to keep the way we live going.

The forum is biased toward terraforming, as if we would actually be able to live on other planets and other such foolishness.

The forum is biased toward endless scientific progress, as if given enough time we could solve any problem. We however don't have endless resources for such experiments.

Alot of people see the future as some type of super scientific civilization where we rely more and more on technology, but I don't think that will turn out to be true.

There really is the general belief here that science will solve all our problems, given enough time. Everyone can just sit on their ass and the scientists will handle it. It is no different than 500 years ago when people thought Jesus would solve all our problems when people got sick.

 

[PieIsAwesome]

im getting the feeling the OP was suicidal at one point. just from reading the OP and a few of the responses where he/she extracts only certain points to respond to, also make feel like they are a typical "born again".

There always exists some deep-seated need to "believe" with these sorts. Address that need, and the religion thing will sort itself out. Its pointless to argue about their fantasies until that problem is resolved. Its actually quite sad.

 

[OverVolt]

http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=2263480

http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=2234048

http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=2232000

http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=2233701


There. Pages and pages and pages of morons believing in the science super jesus. Of course when framed like that, the atheists/techies totally reel at the thought.

According to the brainiacs - Technological Singularity:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technological_singularity

reusable energy sources that will eliminate the world's reliance on fossil fuels.

I think we will figure out anti-gravity.

Once that happens, we're going to see all sorts of new propulsion technologies created, and may make space travel a reality.

The technological singularity.

Organs grown in labs, created using our own cells then transplanted into people. Though I know they have just started doing this. I expect it to be widespread and really change things.

Sustainable fusion used for powerplants.

Quantum computing.

True anti-aging pill's.

It's funny how most of the responses here in some way lead to more people on the planet. Little technological breakthroughs that are going to allow the planet to carry the extra burden. No growth in how humans actually think, if war and destruction is necessary to achieve more resources for these technologies to go to select groups, so be it.

I would be really surprised if I lived to see 2062.

The one person in the thread who actually noticed what was going on.

 

[Jeff7]

Well by all means don't use money. Its just symbols printed on paper.

All human social constructs exist because people believe in them.

That's not "blind faith." I have very strong evidence that giving that paper to someone else will encourage them to give me something in return. It's "faith" in a system that's been proven to work rather well. The "faith in the system" is more a matter of trust.
Faith in the context of religion is believing something for which there is no evidence. Faith in the context of money or government is based on evidence from history, which says that the system has been working in the past, and that people are working to ensure that it stays that way into the future.

Even if you want to look back to gold, that's still faith in the system. It's just a shiny metal that's good at resisting the corrosive forces commonly found in our environment. I still can't use it as a food source; I'd need to trade it with someone else, and they'd only accept the trade if they had evidence that it would in turn retain value to someone else.

http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=2263480

http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=2234048

http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=2232000

http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=2233701


There. Pages and pages and pages of morons believing in the science super jesus. Of course when framed like that, the atheists/techies totally reel at the thought.

Just as you may "reel" at the thought of saying that Jesus has 30 arms and spews chocolate from his mouth, which is made of clouds. It's not necessarily because the idea is offensive, it's because it's simply absurd.

A lot of religions believe that some space genie will use his awesome magic help us out.
This "science super jesus" is us saying, "We want to make things more awesome here. How can we accomplish that?" Note the difference: There is no magic space genie involved. It's the big-brained primates here on Earth trying to find better solutions to problems that face us, rather than thinking really hard at the sky, and hoping that the sky solves our problems for us.

I can paraphrase.

The forum is biased toward science solving all our energy problems, they believe some huge advancement will be made to keep the way we live going.

The forum is biased toward terraforming, as if we would actually be able to live on other planets and other such foolishness.

The forum is biased toward endless scientific progress, as if given enough time we could solve any problem. We however don't have endless resources for such experiments.

Alot of people see the future as some type of super scientific civilization where we rely more and more on technology, but I don't think that will turn out to be true.

Think of how many things we have now which would have been seen as nothing less than pure magic or absurdity 1000 years ago. Torches with no fire. Heat with no flame. Handheld lightning (welding gun). Sunlight, on demand, from a box. Flying machines. Flying machines with no pilots. Small boxes that can both listen and speak (Hello, Siri.) Paintings that move (TV). Cold and hot water, available in an instant, and completely drinkable. The ability to communicate with someone on the other side of the world in mere seconds, rather than months or years - without needing to risk death during a long journey to do it.
We're already there. And we're still heading there at the same time.

And no, we don't have endless resources. Thanks to scientific advancements (there's that darn pesky thing again), we're learning how to conserve resources, and do things with greater efficacy.

There really is the general belief here that science will solve all our problems, given enough time. Everyone can just sit on their ass and the scientists will handle it. It is no different than 500 years ago when people thought Jesus would solve all our problems when people got sick.

Science is just exploration and study of the Universe. It provides the tools by which people may be able to do useful things. Scientists provide the knowledge, engineers figure out practical applications of that knowledge, technicians configure, install, and maintain it, workers manufacture the products, and retailers sell it. Everyone else still has to have jobs so that they can get some of that faithy money to buy the technology, and then they can sit on their asses and enjoy it.
And thus far, this trend is supported by evidence. Our history, both recorded and biological, shows that we've got a knack for finding our way out of difficult situations, though it's not necessarily always going to be pretty. In modern times, we usually try to avoid using basic attrition as a means of solving problems; nature typically has no problem using that method though.

 

[Gibsons]

http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=2263480

http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=2234048

http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=2232000

http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=2233701


There. Pages and pages and pages of morons believing in the science super jesus. Of course when framed like that, the atheists/techies totally reel at the thought.

You're confusing speculation with belief, then adding insults on top of that.

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=2263480

http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=2234048

http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=2232000

http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=2233701


There. Pages and pages and pages of morons believing in the science super jesus. Of course when framed like that, the atheists/techies totally reel at the thought.

So, not one SINGLE example of someone claiming science has mythical properties?

YOU are the ONLY one who says that science is some sort of magical entity, not ONE single person but you have claimed that.

You're fighting strawmen here, putting words into the mouths of others which they never uttered and you are either doing it intentionally or you can't comprehend that the scientific method isn't magic and doesn't claim to be.

 

[OverVolt]

You're confusing speculation with belief, then adding insults on top of that.

Its the belief in never ending science progress to solve all our problems. No different, nor any less ridiculous than people thinking Jesus will solve all their problems.

 

[sandorski]

I can paraphrase.

The forum is biased toward science solving all our energy problems, they believe some huge advancement will be made to keep the way we live going.

The forum is biased toward terraforming, as if we would actually be able to live on other planets and other such foolishness.

The forum is biased toward endless scientific progress, as if given enough time we could solve any problem. We however don't have endless resources for such experiments.

Alot of people see the future as some type of super scientific civilization where we rely more and more on technology, but I don't think that will turn out to be true.

There really is the general belief here that science will solve all our problems, given enough time. Everyone can just sit on their ass and the scientists will handle it. It is no different than 500 years ago when people thought Jesus would solve all our problems when people got sick.

and?

Science has advanced us more in this last Year than Religion has advanced us in all known History.

 

[soulcougher73]

Its the belief in never ending science progress to solve all our problems. No different, nor any less ridiculous than people thinking Jesus will solve all their problems.

So are you saying we should just abandon science like God did humans?

 

[T_Yamamoto]

Thank science not god for your miracles.

That is all

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

Its the belief in never ending science progress to solve all our problems. No different, nor any less ridiculous than people thinking Jesus will solve all their problems.

Again, this is YOUR claim and you have failed to provide ANY evidence for it.

You are continuously asserting this and arguing against it but there is no one asserting it but you so you're just arguing against something no one ever said.

 

[dighn]

I can paraphrase.

The forum is biased toward science solving all our energy problems, they believe some huge advancement will be made to keep the way we live going.

The forum is biased toward terraforming, as if we would actually be able to live on other planets and other such foolishness.

The forum is biased toward endless scientific progress, as if given enough time we could solve any problem. We however don't have endless resources for such experiments.

Alot of people see the future as some type of super scientific civilization where we rely more and more on technology, but I don't think that will turn out to be true.

There really is the general belief here that science will solve all our problems, given enough time. Everyone can just sit on their ass and the scientists will handle it. It is no different than 500 years ago when people thought Jesus would solve all our problems when people got sick.

You don't think our science will progress to even higher levels, and so anyone who speculates in such a direction is a "moron"? Really?

You are right Jesus hasn't solved any of our problems, but science has. I could list the examples, but they are so apparent that it would be patronizing to list them. In mere centuries science has transformed humanity and even our planet (good or bad) in ways unimaginable to those of earlier times. That proves that science is an extremely potent force, capable of producing tangible results. Will such a trend hold or even accelerate? Nobody really knows, but nobody can say that it won't either. I personally think our scientific progress is part of a greater pattern in this universe towards greater complexity; just another step after abiogenesis and evolution.

 

[Retro Rob]

The burden of proof is on the believer, if some one says" I believe in X and that is true.." He should corroborate his statement with evidence to his observation/hypothesis.

Keeping it personal goes both ways, Rob. It is ok if you keep it personal.. I guess no one is complaining, but you better prepare yourself to be ridiculed if you bring religion into a public place or a school.

Not directed at you, but the best way to lure a bigot out of hiding (on this forum, anyway) is to simpy use God as good bait.

The sheer frothing at the mouth by the non-religious to attack a believer on a personal level, and his beliefs, is a good indicator of why the world has plenty of hate to go around for decades and centuries to come.

Our Founding Father are turing in their graves as we speak.

To address what you wrote, I totally agree with that if you come to a person with something you want him to believe, you have to show him why he should. I never argued that. The issue I see is that non-believers make equal claims with zero evidence. "God doesn't exist". How do you know? "He just doesn't".. no evidence offered, so you have none. What's the difference?


As far as keeping it personal goes, sure, religious people have been ridiculed for decades... aint nothing new. It hasn't stopped them. I'd say they have very thick skin and are resilient to bear up under hateful ridicule over the decades. What doesn't kill you makes you stronger. Our world has progressed becasue people don't give in to bigots and their limitless bigotry...

 

[Vic Vega]

Its the belief in never ending science progress to solve all our problems. No different, nor any less ridiculous than people thinking Jesus will solve all their problems.

http://youtu.be/JbvDYyoAv9k

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

Our Founding Father are turing in their graves as we speak.

Indeed they are, they have been ever since lawmaking became a religious matter simply because politicians want religious voters to vote for them.

It's a disgrace.

 

[PowerEngineer]

Not directed at you, but the best way to lure a bigot out of hiding (on this forum, anyway) is to simpy use God as good bait.

The sheer frothing at the mouth by the religious to attack a non-believer on a personal level, and his beliefs, is a good indicator of why the world has plenty of hate to go around for decades and centuries to come.

Our Founding Father are turing in their graves as we speak.

To address what you wrote, I totally agree with that if you come to a person with something you want him to believe, you have to show him why he should. I never argued that. The issue I see is that believers make equal claims with zero evidence. "God exists". How do you know? "He just does".. no evidence offered, so you have none. What's the difference?

As far as keeping it personal goes, sure, non-religious people have been ridiculed for decades... aint nothing new. It hasn't stopped them. I'd say they have very thick skin and are resilient to bear up under hateful ridicule over the decades. What doesn't kill you makes you stronger. Our world has progressed becasue people don't give in to bigots and their limitless bigotry...

Your post makes at least as much sense with these tweaks.

An objective reveiw of history should remind you that "the world has plenty of hate to go around" as a result of irreconcilable differences in the beliefs of religious people rather than because of the presense of a non-religious minority.

That objective review should also remind you that religious people have always been the large majority here and in all other countries, and it's the non-religious who have been the ridiculed minorities.

If ATOT is in fact a small corner of this world in which the non-religious happen to outnumber the religious, then perhaps you will charitably tolerate this annomoly rather than taking it as cause for a jihad.

 

[ioni]

Long thread, so probably already mentioned but, why does right/wrong have to be determined by a higher power? The major moral issues (theft and violence) are pretty much universally agreed upon. There are a few small cultures that don't value possessions, but those tend to be tribes living away from society.

If you're truly a Christian who believes in the afterlife, why not just end this life now and join the kingdom of heaven?

 

[Retro Rob]

An objective reveiw of history should remind you that "the world has plenty of hate to go around" as a result of irreconcilable differences in the beliefs of religious people rather than because of the presense of a non-religious minority.

You're acting as if I've denied religious HATE in history. I haven't, won't.. never will deny it. It was stupid, inhumane. No doubt about that.

What I'm saying is that hate was never and never will be exclusive to religion, race, creed, etc.

That objective review should also remind you that religious people have always been the large majority here and in all other countries, and it's the non-religious who have been the ridiculed minorities.

What's happening now, though? Stop trying to jutisfy religious hate with the fact that religion hated people back then. It was unfortunate, and quite frankly, wrong on all levels, and unjustifiable.

If you want to hold that against religion forever, then fine.. your choice. But keep in mind that religious people today have nothing to do with the voilence back then.

The violence that blacks were subject to during the decades of white racial slavery and discrimination doesn't cause me to make an excuse to hate whites today -- those that have NOTHING to do with that.

If ATOT is in fact a small corner of this world in which the non-religious happen to outnumber the religious, then perhaps you will charitably tolerate this annomoly rather than taking it as cause for a jihad.

I'm making an observation.