Time for a religion thread

[Red Dawn]

Originally posted by: sandorski
.

That said, even Jesus downplayed the whole issue by essentially saying that Good/Bad things happen to both Good/Bad People. There's nothing Mystical about it, what Happens, Happens.

Allegedly

 

[skace]

Sometimes I read these threads just to remind myself why you should never argue religion.

 

[sandorski]

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: sandorski
.

That said, even Jesus downplayed the whole issue by essentially saying that Good/Bad things happen to both Good/Bad People. There's nothing Mystical about it, what Happens, Happens.

Allegedly

Indeed. :laugh:

 

[sao123]

Originally posted by: DrPizza
When things go "right" for people, they often praise God, and thank God for what they've been given. (And, God knows that people on my facebook seem to thank him an awful lot.) I'm not much of a Biblical scholar, but isn't it possible for the Devil to cause things? (From a religious perspective - obviously, if you do not believe, then neither is possible.) i.e. Someone wins the lottery & thanks God. But, then they wind up bankrupt in 10 years & miserable. Perhaps winning wasn't the work of God? Perhaps God was completely hands off and just before the person who was going to donate 1/2 of the money to charities won, there was a bit of intervention. Maybe another person miraculously went into remission from cancer, not because God wanted them to live, but because the devil realized that the person had a net negative effect on the world.

Can the Devil actually do stuff? Or is it just God who's allowed to manipulate outcomes? And, if the Devil can't manipulate things, then how is he able to tempt us?

hmm... as i remember the story...

Satan was once an angel of Light named Lucifer. He exaulted himself above God and was thrown out of heaven and about a third of the angels with him, prior to the tempting of adam and eve.

I would believe that Satans power would be able to manipulate outcomes (but yet must be subject to the permission of God)... Everyone mentions Job's story... But I turn to The Revelation. The unholy trinity (Satan, the Antichrist, and the false prophet) will have powers to perform miracles and healings to impress the people.

 

[Kev]

Originally posted by: SlitheryDee
Doc, the way I understand it, the devil gets in you and makes naughty things seem more attractive. The devil wants your soul. He can get it if you aren't living/believing correctly, and you apparently have a little turny-button that he can twiddle to make you do all the things a respectable devil could possibly want you to do. You can twiddle these knobs on your own as well, but the devil is too strong for you alone. Enter Lord Savior Jesus Christ The Anointed one Jehovah-Elohim I AM THAT I AM Alpha/Omega top dog deity; who, in practice, acts as a shot of anabolic steroids in your turny-button twiddling arm. You are thusly empowered with the everlasting light, which allows you to kick the devil in the nads and fills you with the strong desire to proselytize in the middle of the cereal lane in grocery stores and bug the shit out your godless neighbors about attending the next "sunday meetin'".

wat

 

[Juddog]

Originally posted by: sandorski
Repoxy x Infinity

That said, here are the Cliffs of Truth: 1) there is no "God(s)"; 2) there is no "Satan/Devil"

You're welcome.

That said, even Jesus downplayed the whole issue by essentially saying that Good/Bad things happen to both Good/Bad People. There's nothing Mystical about it, what Happens, Happens.

That sounds like something Satan would make you say.

 

[Juddog]

Neither god nor the devil truly do anything. The Flying Spaghetti Monster, however, has his noodley appendages wrapped around quantum pasta which manipulates space / time to make a more delicious meal.

As a pastafarian I would have to say that he FSM is far more involved in day to day weaving of reality than the God or Satan, who both would rather sit at the table and eat fine pasta with the blood of Jesus (a fine Chianti) than casually manipulate people to do their bidding.

 

[DangerAardvark]

Originally posted by: DrPizza
So, then, according to Christianity, there is no Devil?

According to Christianity? There are thirty thousand sects of Christianity. And even among members of the same one, you're unlikely to find two people who agree on all or even most of its tenets.

 

[meltdown75]

As I am on the papal payroll, and a biblical cheerleader to boot, I cannot reply without bias.

Jesus loves you, Jesus saves. GIMME A J!

 

[jonks]

The Creator locked the Dark One up in a prison at the moment of creation. Despite periodic attempts to release him, he remains chained at Shayol Ghuul until such time as the Dragon returns to defeat him, depending on which age you live in that is. But his influence does permeate the prison walls and infects the surrounding area, imbuing it with darkness and evil, which according to my map appears to be somewhere around Montreal.

 

[Modelworks]

Without bringing the religion aspect into it the way I see it is:

God wanted to create something, something he thought would be wonderful. So he created Adam and Eve. The trouble starts when he tells the Angels (the beings that serve him) that man will be his #1 priority and the angels #2. Satan is Gods right hand man at that time who gets really pissed off that after all his time of service to God , that God would put a human before him. So he rebels and takes some angels with him. His goal is to show God what a pathetic choice he has made in man. God and Satan set up a bet on who is right and the world now is the result. Satan tries to show that man is weak and worthless and God tries to argue that they are worth the trouble. All this other crap about Satan having horns and hell fire and demons is crap. It clearly says in all text that Satan was the most beautiful of all the angels. So we are the pawns in a game of 'Who was right, Satan or God?

 

[Crono]

Originally posted by: Jeff7
The problem is, communication is a two-way street.
When God "communicates," it's always open to interpretation. If you suddenly are offered a job somewhere, was it because God was kindly opening a door for you, enabling a new path? Or was it just going to happen anyway, with or without prayer?
"I must be God, because when I pray, I find that I am talking to myself."

Correct: communication is indeed a two-way street. The Bible is God's Word, and the Holy Spirit leads the spirit-filled person of God.

The communication of God isn't subject to interpretation. If you are are born again person, constantly meditating on God's Word, obeying it, you pray continuously, then anything you do that is in conjunction with God's Word is according to His good will for you. There isn't an audible voice from heaven, but more the still small voice that Elijah experienced. If you are hearing "voices" that clearly tell you to do something that isn't in agreement with God's Word (like telling you to shoot up your office with a rifle) then you know it's not from God. The Bible is the litmus test.

Glorify himself....talk about the ultimate ego trip.

If God is supreme, if He is perfectly good, and infinite in power and knowledge, then He has every right to glorify Himself. We humans shouldn't glorify ourselves because we don't deserve it. We exalt ourselves higher than we should. God, on the other hand, deserves all glory and honor. Think about it. If He created from nothing the universe, all that exists and ever will exist, then He has every right to demand glory from it. Why should He share glory with another? Is finite man, or anything finite and limited and corrupt, deserving of the glory due God? No!

So if it isn't for us to say what is good, why have a justice system, if God will just sort it all out in the end?

Because governments and systems on this earth are appointed by God. Their resposiblity is to carry out God's justice on this earth until the fullness of God's kingdom comes (millenial kingdom of God, and eternity thereafter). Those that do not live up to that responsibility are judged here on earth (every corrupt government eventually is destroyed) and individuals also at the final judgment.

And heck, this life we've got isn't even the blink of an eye compared to the supposed eternity of existence in the afterlife. This puny existence really shouldn't be weighted so heavily in the grand scheme of things. Average lifespan of what, 76 years? Versus 50 trillion quadrillion quadrillion millennia? This life is important...why, again?

Because the condition of man in this finite space of time is indicative of his eternal state.
Those who do not repent in the given lifespan will not repent even if they had eternity, and those who do repent will enjoy the grace of God in His Kingdom for all eternity. This earth, corrupt as it is, still has some joys that point to God's eternal kingdom in which there will be no pain, no suffering. The pain and suffering that we do experience here does serve a purpose: to demonstrate the fallen nature of the universe, and to bring thsoe whom God has chosen into salvation.

And it's always back to that damned tree. God: The ultimate tempter. Adam and Eve didn't know the difference between good and bad, so they didn't know that eating from the tree was bad.

They knew to obey, but chose to disobey. Fault lies with them, and with us, for we whould have made the same choice.

Then God comes and punishes his creations for acting on a design flaw which he created within them, and which he presumably knew about. And he punishes not just them, but also their children, and all of their offspring, indefinitely. Yeah, there's the empty gesture of God coming to Earth as Jesus, dying, then not dying, and that cleanses the sins somehow. Yet we still suffer the Eden-less existence that God originally condemned us to.

You're complaining of the way God made human beings, giving them the ability to choose between obeying and disobeying Him (and reaping the consequences). But you, nor I, have the luxury of questioning God's motives and will any more than a sculpture can question it's scultpor, a program can question its programmer, or a character question his author. Get it through your hard heart: you, nor I, have any right before God.

"You will say to me then, 'Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?'
On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, 'Why did you make me like this,' will it?
Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use?

What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction?" - Romans 9:19-22

Read God's response to Job, when Job complains that God is unjust in His treatment of him.

Oh, and he cursed all snakes to "eat dust," or some such thing, despite the fact that they didn't do anything wrong, except that Satan happened to take the form of one. All snakes are just wondering, "WTF, God? We didn't do anything wrong!"

First, Satan possessed the serpent (dragon is more accurate physical description).
Second, like I stated earlier, God has every right to mete out judgment as He sees fit.
God has no problem cursing the physical universe as a result of mankind or Satan's sin, because obviously the physical universe isn't sentient, only angels, demons, and humans are. Animals are not sentient. Snakes are not going "WTF?". Human beings are cursed because we chose and still choose to sin. So was Satan in that judgment: the Seed of the woman that would crush the serpent refers to a descendant of Adam and Eve (Jesus) that would defeat Satan.

 

[Zenmervolt]

Originally posted by: lxskllr
Absolutely not. God is in control of all things good and bad. If you win the lottery that was God. If you get run over by a car, that was his doing also. If that isn't true, then there is no God. You can't be omnipotent, and powerless at the same time.

But you can be omnipotent andchoose not to act.

ZV

 

[Zenmervolt]

Originally posted by: theflyingpig
Pitiful humans have been tricked by the Devil into believing that he is God. It's quite funny to listen to all of the fools praise "God" not knowing the truth. Only the Devil can be so clever as to fool billions of people to self imposed suffering. And they keep coming back for more.

Ialdabaoth, is that you?

ZV

 

[meltdown75]

God is in his holy temple.

 

[SunnyD]

Originally posted by: Zenmervolt

Originally posted by: lxskllr
Absolutely not. God is in control of all things good and bad. If you win the lottery that was God. If you get run over by a car, that was his doing also. If that isn't true, then there is no God. You can't be omnipotent, and powerless at the same time.

But you can be omnipotent andchoose not to act.

ZV

But you can't be omnipotent and benevolent and choose not to act.

 

[KeithTalent]

And that is why Jesus was often referred to as the King of Kings. Queens. The King of Queens.

KT

 

[ivan2]

it's all relative man. much like the absence of heat is cold.

 

[apoppin]

it is all metaphysical

Religion is one ignorant way to attempt to explain it because the human animal is superstitious and afraid of dying

 

[Zenmervolt]

Originally posted by: SunnyD

Originally posted by: Zenmervolt

Originally posted by: lxskllr
Absolutely not. God is in control of all things good and bad. If you win the lottery that was God. If you get run over by a car, that was his doing also. If that isn't true, then there is no God. You can't be omnipotent, and powerless at the same time.

But you can be omnipotent andchoose not to act.

ZV

But you can't be omnipotent and benevolent and choose not to act.

That's debatable. An immediate good outcome is not always preferred in the long-run. Sometimes the pain from a small mistake can prevent much greater pain from a larger mistake in the future. For example, we don't give a child a candy bar every time he or she asks for a candy bar because, even though the denial causes the child some "pain" in the immediate future, we are protecting the child's long-term well being.

Now, I don't mean to say that things are always good, etc, because I don't believe that. But I am saying that it's possible to be both inactive and good if one is omnipotent. You just have to view that benevolence on a different time scale.

ZV

 

[TallBill]

Originally posted by: apoppin
it is all metaphysical

Religion is one ignorant way to attempt to explain it because the human animal is superstitious and afraid of dying

Plus we're stupid.

 

[lxskllr]

Originally posted by: Zenmervolt

Originally posted by: SunnyD

Originally posted by: Zenmervolt

Originally posted by: lxskllr
Absolutely not. God is in control of all things good and bad. If you win the lottery that was God. If you get run over by a car, that was his doing also. If that isn't true, then there is no God. You can't be omnipotent, and powerless at the same time.

But you can be omnipotent andchoose not to act.

ZV

But you can't be omnipotent and benevolent and choose not to act.

That's debatable. An immediate good outcome is not always preferred in the long-run. Sometimes the pain from a small mistake can prevent much greater pain from a larger mistake in the future. For example, we don't give a child a candy bar every time he or she asks for a candy bar because, even though the denial causes the child some "pain" in the immediate future, we are protecting the child's long-term well being.

Now, I don't mean to say that things are always good, etc, because I don't believe that. But I am saying that it's possible to be both inactive and good if one is omnipotent. You just have to view that benevolence on a different time scale.

ZV

What's God's problem with Jews? He had a chance to do something about Hitler, but didn't do a thing. The consequences of that were a little greater than an expanded waistline, and some rotten teeth.

 

[lokiju]

Originally posted by: lxskllr
Absolutely not. God is in control of all things good and bad. If you win the lottery that was God. If you get run over by a car, that was his doing also. If that isn't true, then there is no God. You can't be omnipotent, and powerless at the same time.

Pretty much the way I understood it in a theoretical sense.

Not that I agree or believe with most religious aspects in a typical sense...


I'd suggest reading "The Shack" if you want to ponder more about how humans view religious things.

It's a straight up fiction but a quick read that might make you ponder things differently...

 

[SunnyD]

Originally posted by: Zenmervolt

Originally posted by: SunnyD

Originally posted by: Zenmervolt

Originally posted by: lxskllr
Absolutely not. God is in control of all things good and bad. If you win the lottery that was God. If you get run over by a car, that was his doing also. If that isn't true, then there is no God. You can't be omnipotent, and powerless at the same time.

But you can be omnipotent andchoose not to act.

ZV

But you can't be omnipotent and benevolent and choose not to act.

That's debatable. An immediate good outcome is not always preferred in the long-run. Sometimes the pain from a small mistake can prevent much greater pain from a larger mistake in the future. For example, we don't give a child a candy bar every time he or she asks for a candy bar because, even though the denial causes the child some "pain" in the immediate future, we are protecting the child's long-term well being.

Now, I don't mean to say that things are always good, etc, because I don't believe that. But I am saying that it's possible to be both inactive and good if one is omnipotent. You just have to view that benevolence on a different time scale.

ZV

Benevolence doesn't start with the "greater good" when discussing god. After all, god loves all of his children equally and unequivocally, and is benevolent to them all.

For example: Letting your children kill each other doesn't possibly sound like it could be equally benevolent to either party now does it? Herein is the fundamental flaw in religion... an omnipotent benevolent god would not possibly allow this to happen. And more so, if said god is truly omnipotent, then that god would not have created mankind (which would ultimately commit such an act), let alone allow his children to be "tempted by the serpent" (re: Eden), and feel compelled to ask "Who told you that you are naked?"

Another example: How is letting a "soul" suffer eternal torment in damnation an act of benevolence or love?

I state again: You can't be omnipotent and benevolent and choose not to act.

 

[sandorski]

Originally posted by: SunnyD

Originally posted by: Zenmervolt

Originally posted by: SunnyD

Originally posted by: Zenmervolt

Originally posted by: lxskllr
Absolutely not. God is in control of all things good and bad. If you win the lottery that was God. If you get run over by a car, that was his doing also. If that isn't true, then there is no God. You can't be omnipotent, and powerless at the same time.

But you can be omnipotent andchoose not to act.

ZV

But you can't be omnipotent and benevolent and choose not to act.

That's debatable. An immediate good outcome is not always preferred in the long-run. Sometimes the pain from a small mistake can prevent much greater pain from a larger mistake in the future. For example, we don't give a child a candy bar every time he or she asks for a candy bar because, even though the denial causes the child some "pain" in the immediate future, we are protecting the child's long-term well being.

Now, I don't mean to say that things are always good, etc, because I don't believe that. But I am saying that it's possible to be both inactive and good if one is omnipotent. You just have to view that benevolence on a different time scale.

ZV

Benevolence doesn't start with the "greater good" when discussing god. After all, god loves all of his children equally and unequivocally, and is benevolent to them all.

For example: Letting your children kill each other doesn't possibly sound like it could be equally benevolent to either party now does it? Herein is the fundamental flaw in religion... an omnipotent benevolent god would not possibly allow this to happen. And more so, if said god is truly omnipotent, then that god would not have created mankind (which would ultimately commit such an act), let alone allow his children to be "tempted by the serpent" (re: Eden), and feel compelled to ask "Who told you that you are naked?"

Another example: How is letting a "soul" suffer eternal torment in damnation an act of benevolence or love?

I state again: You can't be omnipotent and benevolent and choose not to act.

Maybe "God" is just an Asshole?