Cheeseplug
Senior member
- Dec 16, 2008
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Actually, of the top 7 religions in the world only the 3 abrahamic religions are like that, the other 4 are all practical and about people.
Actually, of the top 7 religions in the world only the 3 abrahamic religions are like that, the other 4 are all practical and about people.
Prayer is not about requesting what you want and expecting God, liek some cosmic genie, to give it to you. Prayer is not about changing God's will to match your own, it's about changing your will to better match God's. And you have to be a child of God for prayer to mean anything - what good would it be for the prodigal son to return to the father only to demand a Ferrari and then immediately leave back to his prodigal living? Prayer is communication with God, and there is a right way to do it, just as there is a right way to properly communicate with your parents.
Why does God allow evil and allow Satan? Because His ultimate plan for the universe is to glorify Himself by calling out of the fallen, sinful world and redeeming a people to present as perfect and righteous to reign in His kingdom with His Son (an aspect of Himself) forever. God is the very definition of good, and any standard of good or evil is derived from whether it is in conjunction with or against His commandments, respectively. It isn't for you or I to say what is good, as we are unable to, having a fallen nature from birth into this world. The very problem with mankind is that we do "what is right in our own eyes". The inability to separate good and evil rightly is what makes man corrupt, since eating of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
skulkingghost
Golden Member
- Jan 4, 2006
- 1,660
- 1
- 76
The best way to answer this question is to read the story of Job, as it deals with how God and the devil work, but here are some cliffs:
God allows the devil to make Jobs life bad in order to prove Job's loyalty to God
Basically the devil can do his works, but a demon can never touch a human without God's permission to us, and only if that suffering that befalls us aids us on our road to salvation.
Also since the devil is a fallen angel, I suggest googling the 9 choirs of angels, and reading up about them, since when Lucifer left heaven he took all the angels from Cherubim down with him, so understanding how the good angels work, will help you understand the bad ones as well.
AND because the devil is a fallen angel, he can play with your imagination, and see what you imagine, however he can not read your intellect (where free will is contained,) so the devil uses our imagination to tempt us, and never our intellect.
God allows the devil to make Jobs life bad in order to prove Job's loyalty to God
Basically the devil can do his works, but a demon can never touch a human without God's permission to us, and only if that suffering that befalls us aids us on our road to salvation.
Also since the devil is a fallen angel, I suggest googling the 9 choirs of angels, and reading up about them, since when Lucifer left heaven he took all the angels from Cherubim down with him, so understanding how the good angels work, will help you understand the bad ones as well.
AND because the devil is a fallen angel, he can play with your imagination, and see what you imagine, however he can not read your intellect (where free will is contained,) so the devil uses our imagination to tempt us, and never our intellect.
Jeff7
Lifer
- Jan 4, 2001
- 41,596
- 20
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The problem is, communication is a two-way street.
When God "communicates," it's always open to interpretation. If you suddenly are offered a job somewhere, was it because God was kindly opening a door for you, enabling a new path? Or was it just going to happen anyway, with or without prayer?
"I must be God, because when I pray, I find that I am talking to myself."
Glorify himself....talk about the ultimate ego trip.
So if it isn't for us to say what is good, why have a justice system, if God will just sort it all out in the end? And heck, this life we've got isn't even the blink of an eye compared to the supposed eternity of existence in the afterlife. This puny existence really shouldn't be weighted so heavily in the grand scheme of things. Average lifespan of what, 76 years? Versus 50 trillion quadrillion quadrillion millennia? This life is important...why, again?
Reason: Most dead people have only one productive function: Nourish microbes and small organisms in the soil, as they decay.
And it's always back to that damned tree. God: The ultimate tempter. Adam and Eve didn't know the difference between good and bad, so they didn't know that eating from the tree was bad. Then God comes and punishes his creations for acting on a design flaw which he created within them, and which he presumably knew about. And he punishes not just them, but also their children, and all of their offspring, indefinitely. Yeah, there's the empty gesture of God coming to Earth as Jesus, dying, then not dying, and that cleanses the sins somehow. Yet we still suffer the Eden-less existence that God originally condemned us to.
Oh, and he cursed all snakes to "eat dust," or some such thing, despite the fact that they didn't do anything wrong, except that Satan happened to take the form of one. All snakes are just wondering, "WTF, God? We didn't do anything wrong!"
There's something odd about that.
An all-knowing being that needs to do an experiment, done on a sentient being, subjecting said sentient being to cruel and unusual treatment in the process, something which we sometimes try to avoid (animal cruelty in scientific experiments), just so he can prove a point?
Should everyone who experiences great hardship actually be grateful to be given such a wonderful "lesson" by God? Maybe the 2004 Tsunami was simply another similar experiment by God, to test the loyalty of not an individual, but of the masses.
God works in mysterious ways, or God's ways are beyond our comprehension. That's the usual explanation.
From my viewpoint, he looks like, at best, a spoiled child, and at worst, a psychotic misanthrope who wields far more power than he should posses.
skulkingghost
Golden Member
- Jan 4, 2006
- 1,660
- 1
- 76
God initially created human beings in a state without sin. Free will is what caused the first human beings to sin, and reject God, thus permitting evil in to the world. Because the first 2 humans sinned, it created a generational curse, or mark known as "original sin" that is removed at baptism.
HOWEVER
God did not create evil, God also did not create hell, hell is not a place, it is a state of being, hell is simply the absence of God.
AND
God permits evil because we choose it on earth. God did not create us to mindlessly worship him. God wants us to worship him, but will not force us. Evil is part of not worshiping God. It is literally choosing to do wrong (evil) and failing to go good (worship.)
God is completely able to prevent evil, read the story of Ninevah for example. In that case it is God's wrath that the people were saved from through prayer and fasting.
God is willing to help us be free from evil, he gives us was such as mass (a prayer at the beginning of church clears atendees of venial sins,) Communion, penance, and various indulgences.
Yes
See my first post on free will
He is able and willing
Because we choose to do so. God created us out of love, and gave us free will to choose whether we love him or not. We aren't slaves to God, and are not forced to worship him mindlessly, and that is the ultimate act of love on his behalf. God = Love
Absolutely, the Devil has plenty of power and utilizes it often. I would agree that some "blessings" are in fact temptations/work of the devil.
God is never powerless but certainly allows Satan power. The story of Job is a perfect example.
lxskllr
No Lifer
- Nov 30, 2004
- 60,962
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Damn dude,nice novella :^D
Seriously though it was a good read, and I think I'm on the same page you are. My religion is best summed up as "I don't care". Being an athiest or agnostic requires too much thought for 0 return. It can't be proven one way or another, so why bother?
Mo0o
Lifer
- Jul 31, 2001
- 24,227
- 3
- 76
As far as I know of Christian dogma, God COULD control all things but doesnt. Thus, he allows the Devil to tempt Man, allow Man to sin etc. I heard one explanation that evil is merely teh absense of good, or in essence the absence of god.
A lot of mumbo jumbo but its the most coherent explanation for what christians believe ive heard thus far.
A lot of mumbo jumbo but its the most coherent explanation for what christians believe ive heard thus far.
Well, in christian mythology, Lucifer is actually a victim of God's screwed up sense of right and wrong. Christianity teaches that raping a chick is okay if you're an "Angel of God", and anyone who tries to hurt you for it will receive punishment in the form of an eternity of taking care of and watching over those whom you despise most.
skulkingghost
Golden Member
- Jan 4, 2006
- 1,660
- 1
- 76
Where the heck are you getting this? Are you talking about the book of Enoch story? If so you need to reread the book. Or are you just trying to spew hate?
Jeff7
Lifer
- Jan 4, 2001
- 41,596
- 20
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How could we sin? We had no knowledge of evil, and no knowledge of what sin was.
Original sin removed at baptism? So why do we still suffer the effects of it? We were cast from Eden, and made mortal, made to suffer and toil in the dirt, women were made to suffer great pain during childbirth.
Baptism doesn't seem to do a damn thing for any of that.
Absence of God? Therefore got is not omnipresent, nor is he omnipotent, nor is he omniscient. If any place exists that is devoid of God, then he cannot know everything, nor is he all-powerful.
And if God created the entirety of existence, would he not also have been responsible for the creation of places where his presence was not known? Surely such realms would not have escaped his notice. "Evil" would also fall under the jurisdiction of "everything," which God was responsible for creating.
Worship....seems like an empty form of "good." It seems like one option presented there - doing wrong - is actually doing something. The other is just telling God how gosh-darned nice he is. Praying is like that - you can feel like you're doing something, but nothing really gets accomplished.
Another flaw in that: It's said that we can't possibly interpret what God wants for us, or what his ultimate plan is, or whatever all that excuse is about. Do we know that God doesn't want mindless worshippers? Our first big leap of knowledge (Tree of Knowledge) caused him to punish all of humanity. Ironically, it was knowledge of good and evil, something which we seem to view as a good thing now; Eden was a purely good place, and by popular opinion, a realm with only good is worthless, as it has no evil in it to show us the value of the good.
The idea of a "wrathful" deity is rather worrisome. He did supposedly once push humanity to the brink of extinction just because we annoyed him. Kind of a nice format and reinstall for the species.
And what's the value of these prayers every week at the beginning of church for those "venial sins?" Does that prayer have a "Good until XX" date included with it?
Free will is itself something of a fun subject. We view ourselves as having free will because we can't predict the outcome of another person's thought process.
God knows everything before it happens. He can see what our "free will" will cause us to choose.
If he himself chooses not to peer into the future to see the outcomes of our choices, then his "plan" is futile; he's driving a car without looking out the windshield.
God = TOUGH love.
- Garden of Eden - screw up once. Slap on the wrist? No. Sent to your room without supper? No. The species gets banished from Eden forever.
- Great Flood - humanity's going downhill. Maybe make some tweaks here and there, fix a few things? Nope. Kill everyone. Kill the animals too, they're probably wicked anyway. Sure you save one family and breeding pairs of various animals. But, you know, so what if many hundreds of thousands die, they were "evil" anyway, right? And their evil animals.
- The fun day-to-day stuff that goes wrong. Random family gets sideswiped by a drunk driver, and their car careens into oncoming traffic. 4 kids are killed, the mother lives. Why? Because she chose evil, as you say we do? "Good Christians" die in accidents as well, sometimes experiencing considerable pain in the process.
God's "plan" for humanity apparently includes a lot of needless suffering. And he obviously has no problems meddling in our affairs. Garden of Eden banishment, Great Flood, sending his son/himself down to Earth to "die" for whatever reason and then "come back to life," prayers that address those venial sins...and then people who believe that their prayer can genuinely influence world events. Well the only way that prayer would influence world events is if that prayer influenced God's decisions. And I've already addressed that fun little conundrum.
And I do believe that such behavior would be called "sadism."
Sure I could help out, and it wouldn't really require any effort on my part. Aw heck, I'll just watch. Oh wow, awesome, they've discovered nuclear fission. I bet they'll use this power to kill each other. This'll be awesome.
My take on it is that the deities of human religions are so petty in their ways, so limited in their thoughts and actions, and their mythologies so convoluted and contradicting, that they simply cannot exist.
Do powerful entities, which would appear to us as godlike, exist? Perhaps. It's a very large Universe, and who knows, it very well may not be the only one. Other life forms may have gotten started billions of years ahead of us. Imagine what that could mean - our technology expands nearly exponentially, as does the quantity of information we generate. Nature kind of takes its time with evolution. It doesn't really have direction, it just kind of mosies along. We have the ability to give direction and speed to our own progress, as would other sentient life forms.
Imagine how far we could get if given another billion years. We would certainly not be homo sapien anymore; to remain in this form for that long would be a pathetic shame, an affront to progress. Technological enhancements to augment our biological systems will come. Some will reject them and remain in the past; others will accept progress.
A billion years...we could surely appear as gods to our past selves, here in 2009. Would we be gods? No. Just powerful "lifeforms," no more gods than a person showing fire to a chimp.
But our amusing little mythologies, and their creator entities? Their existences are confined to the minds of those who continue to envision them.
Heh, it's funny - so much validity is lent to the Christian God, or to Islam's Allah, or to the deities of the Hindu faith, or any other mainstream ones I'm leaving out.
But the Greek gods? We learn about them as old mythology, as amusing stories of the ancient world, and nothing more. But don't worry, we're really sure that this Christianity thing is the real deal. :laugh:
Some day, Jesus and Friends will once again be taught in schools - right along with the lessons about Ra and Zeus.
It's more that I enjoy amusing myself with this sort of thing. Also, the christian god really is a fucking asshole.
- Jun 10, 2004
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I'm not sure who I should bash more, the militant atheists or the amateur theologians. You certainly picked a controversial topic, OP.
Options:
1. Powerful Satan (Christian caricature?)
2. "Satan" as an accuser (scriptural) <-- view favored by biblical scholars, "ha-satan" means "the accuser" in Hebrew and "diabolos" means "slanderer" in Greek
3. Satan as metaphorical (sin/evil)
4. Satan is fiction/doesn't exist
Options:
1. Powerful Satan (Christian caricature?)
2. "Satan" as an accuser (scriptural) <-- view favored by biblical scholars, "ha-satan" means "the accuser" in Hebrew and "diabolos" means "slanderer" in Greek
3. Satan as metaphorical (sin/evil)
4. Satan is fiction/doesn't exist
skulkingghost
Golden Member
- Jan 4, 2006
- 1,660
- 1
- 76
The first sin comes from gaining the knowledge of good and evil. Satan tricks Eve in to eating the fruit saying that she will be "like God" (who has the full knowledge of good and evil.) She eats the apple, and has Adam do it too, then their eyes are opened to the idea of evil. They knew before that they were not supposed to eat from the tree. While they were "innocent" they still had intellect.
Baptism removes the effects of original sin, but we must still suffer the consequence for original sin, though we are forgiven, there is still the consequences of original sin.
Once again, hell is not a place as you say in the quote but a state of being. "Hell" (as a state of being) is the absence of God's love, and feeling that absence, after being given knowledge at judgment that the decisions you made led you to be in that state of being.
By doing good, we emulate the virtues of Christ in our life. By acting in a peaceful manner, one that does not cause harm to others, we are in effect giving worship to God with our lives. This happens directly, or indirectly. It may not be our intention to worship God by giving a homeless person a coat, but the act of helping another human gives worship and testimony to God even if we do not intend it.
The view you have of Eden is misconstrued as well. Eden was a good place for us as humans, and we shared a unity, and bond with God that was indescribable. When we were in Eden, all our needs were met, in fact modern day civilization is built out of the needs we only experianced by falling from the grace we had in eden (for example we make movies to fill the void we now have for entertainment (since we no longer share a fascination in God.))
Also in Eden since we shared this Grace and union with God, we still had the option of not following him. Our free will and intellect were given to us from the beginning of creation, because we had this free will and intellect, we could have chosen to say "no" to worshiping God before eating the fruit, so we still had the ability to fully worship God.
However
The story of Noah is very complicated and has to be read on a number of levels, but what you say is basically true. God saw the world as corrupt, and decided to end it. This is because of the same generational effect there was with Adam and Eve. The world had turned their hearts from God, and would only continue to pass that along to their children. God does not want people to go to hell, and his method of salvation of man begins again. He decides to destroy the wicked people on earth, however he cares so much about the one family on earth that still worships him, he vows to protect them. Noah and his family are saved, and the people who had turned their backs on God were wiped from the earth, and after this God vowed that would be the last time until the end of days.
The value of the prayer said at the beginning of mass is to clean you of venial sin so you can receive communion. If we are in a state of mortal sin you should not receive communion, but a majority of people in church have only committed venial sins. By saying the prayers at the beginning of mass it cleans the soul, and gets your body ready accept Jesus in communion.
God does know what the outcome of our choices will be, but he does not make the decision for us. This is part of the mystery of God, and something we really just have to accept of faith. He knows the outcomes of what peoples decisions will be, but he still loves and respects us enough to allow us to make the decisions not matter the outcome.
1. Garden of Eden
-It could not be just a slap on the wrist, because eating the fruit gave humans the knowledge of good and evil, temptation became a much bigger part of the world. Picture it this way: a person is free from cuts or bruises for most of their life, then one day they fall and get a nasty cut from the fall. What are the consequences of this? Now long after the cut has healed, he still has a scab, and that area is more susceptible to germs until i is healed.
We were banished from the Garden, but it was not as harsh as it could be, God still provided for us, and sent his son to die for us, so that we would not have to suffer the consequences of sin.
2. Great flood
The world was beyond tweaking at this point. Once again God does not force us to worship him. Killing the animals was only a small part of the flood, and since the animals do not have a soul, it was not an evil act to destroy them, they were of no real importance. They were however designed perfectly by God, which is why he had 2 of each gathered so that the new world would have them there.
3. Day to Day
Suffering is never needless, we suffer as a mean to atone for our salvation. God never said our lives would be easy, only that the reward was worth any amount of suffering. Jesus even takes on the suffering of the world so that we can obtain heaven. In fact, when Jesus was being whipped, at one point he falls to the ground, and the guard asks him if he has had enough. Jesus' answer is to stand up to be whipped again. It wasin't a love for pain that made him do that, it was love for humanity, because the more suffering he took on the less humanity had to endure.
We suffer as a means for our salvation, Jesus carried his cross, and we must too. His story is the ultimate example that "bad things can happen to good people." Our God is a fair and just God though, and never gives us more than we can handle.
mrSHEiK124
Lifer
- Mar 6, 2004
- 11,488
- 2
- 0
Very well said.
Islamically: Satan basically told God and Adam to piss off when the Angels were asked to bow to Adam. Instead of putting Satan on a one way trip to Hell, he gave him until the Day of Judgement to try and take as many people with him. The Angels, Jinn (Devils), and Humanity are all God's creation. The Angels do not have free will. Devils, and Humans do; if you get really in depth Devils basically live in another dimension, we can't see them, but Satan can tempt us. Satan is not "powerful" per se other than that he can "whisper" to misguide Adam's children; only God is omnipotent.
Wait, you guys are trying to find flaws in religion?
LOL, Harry Potter is more scientifically sound that that stuff.
LOL, Harry Potter is more scientifically sound that that stuff.
El Guaraguao
Diamond Member
- May 7, 2008
- 3,468
- 6
- 81
sweet baby jesus! some of you guys are replying with encyclopedia like proportions!
totally irrelevant to the topic, but Id thought Id enlighten some of you cosmic zombie jew fan club members
Number of deaths caused by god and the devil since day 1:
god = 2,000,000+ (and counting)
devil = 10
totally irrelevant to the topic, but Id thought Id enlighten some of you cosmic zombie jew fan club members
Number of deaths caused by god and the devil since day 1:
god = 2,000,000+ (and counting)
devil = 10
skulkingghost
Golden Member
- Jan 4, 2006
- 1,660
- 1
- 76
Hahah, I just realized how long my post was! Thats what I get for being a secondary education in theology major!
Duddy
Diamond Member
- Jul 22, 2002
- 4,677
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God doesn't exist. The stories in most all "bibles" were of human interactions with aliens. You can SEE the ships in ancient paintings!
Seriously, if you had the knowledge of a 3rd grader, how else would you describe an alien sighting?
In fact, I'm starting my own religion based on no evidence. My religion will say that aliens placed us here a couple hundred thousand years ago and check in on us from time to time.
Seriously, if you had the knowledge of a 3rd grader, how else would you describe an alien sighting?
In fact, I'm starting my own religion based on no evidence. My religion will say that aliens placed us here a couple hundred thousand years ago and check in on us from time to time.
zerocool84
Lifer
- Nov 11, 2004
- 36,041
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It's the same as when people thank god for saving them from dying after they get into a fatal accident. Who in their right mind would thank someone or something that nearly killed them?
Jeff7
Lifer
- Jan 4, 2001
- 41,596
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If it was a fatal accident, they wouldn't be alive.
There's also those cases where a plane crashes, killing 95% of the people onboard. Those who survive then say God was watching over them.
Guess he just had it in for the rest of the people who weren't so fortunate.
You missed the point though - before gaining that knowledge, humans had no knowledge of what a sin was. Sin didn't exist at the time, and we lacked knowledge of right and wrong. How were those humans to know that what they were doing was truly wrong?
And baptism is about forgiving original sin? That's pretty ass-backwards that I, as an infant, should need to gain forgiveness for something I did not do. I'm glad our justice system doesn't mete out sentences like God does - give someone 5 life sentences, so the following 4 generations then start out life with a parole hearing to seek forgiveness.
Gift humanity with free will, but then punish those who did NOT use their free will to commit that original sin, those who were not capable of exercising a choice by "sin" of not existing.
Ah, ok, so Hell could even be right here on Earth. I suppose if I feel no love from God, I must be in Hell right now. :laugh:
So basically you can simply say that everything you do that isn't evil is worshipping God. That sure makes things easy.
Even using the toilet is glorifying God.
Also in Eden since we shared this Grace and union with God, we still had the option of not following him. Our free will and intellect were given to us from the beginning of creation, because we had this free will and intellect, we could have chosen to say "no" to worshiping God before eating the fruit, so we still had the ability to fully worship God. [/quote]
A fascination in God as entertainment....
1) This guy has an ego that's about as epically infinite as he is.
2) Just....wow. So if we were so fascinated and placated in this absolutely perfect place, why did anything else (Tree of Knowledge) hold any interest at all? "Hmm, an all-loving entity which created us, or a tree of interesting apples....Tree, here we come!" Sorry God, you lost out to a talking snake with fruit.
So rather than push the population towards redemption, genocide is the preferred option? A being of infinite wisdom, and his only answer is simply, "Kill (almost) everyone."
And why the drama of a flood? *snap* of the fingers, and poof! all the bad people are gone. Dude's sure got a flair for the dramatic.
Ahh yes, what religion would be complete without ritual cannibalism?
Ah, so it isn't free will.
1) God created us.
2) God knows the outcomes of our decisions.
3) Therefore, God created us to make those decisions.
4) And despite that, God will punish flawed creations for doing what they were designed to do.
I'm pretty sure we have a name for that behavior, and it's considered to be a psychological disorder, and possibly is illegal.
Not so harsh? I guess I consider mortality to be a pretty significant punishment.
It still bears asking, so God knows the outcome of our choices, yet he still put the Tree of Knowledge in the garden, knowing full well what would happen. So rather than tweaking an obvious design flaw in the humans he'd created, he punishes them for it. And this doesn't bother you in any way?
So that we would not have to suffer the consequences of sin?
1) He's God. He needs to go again with the drama and create a person for the purpose of having that person brutally killed, and this somehow resets the "SIN" checkbox of humanity to "0"? WTF?
2) We still suffer the consequences of sin anyway. I can do all the Jesus this and that, but I'll still be far from Eden, still be mortal, and so on. It's as empty as baptism is - you can still go to church and be told that you're a sinner, etc etc. The splash of water, the accepting of Jesus, it just doesn't seem to really do all that much; nothing remotely tangible anyway.
God = infinitely powerful. Nothing is "beyond" anything.
And besides, why'd he let it get so bad in the first place? Was he not paying attention?
God doesn't force us to worship him. He just threatens us with near-extinction, that's all. Again, our legal system would have problems with that. If I point a gun at someone and tell them to do anything they wouldn't ordinarily do, that would certainly be pretty close to being called "using force."
Yeah, again with the romanticizing of pain and suffering, as the only way to explain how it could possibly exist in the face of an infinitely powerful, infinitely loving deity. He makes us suffer because he loves us.
Bad things can happen to good people - heh, nice. "Thanks dad/me, I'm glad you made me exist for the sole purpose of doing this." Though if Jesus was God, death wouldn't be a big deal anyway, nor would be a trite concept such as physical pain.
And that's still a pretty cruel thing for God. "You were created to suffer for the rest of humanity. I can't do it any other way. I need to see someone do some suffering."
No kidding. I'm not capable of Doublethink, so a lot of these concepts just generate an Epic Faceplam Exception Error if I ponder them.
A god that can't expunge sin unless someone suffers for it, and unless it's begged for on a regular basis. And if it gets too bad, he just starts killing people wholesale. There's ritual cannibalism. God doesn't like burnt sacrifices, but he needs money, and various other forms of sacrifice.
And again, religions of the distant past - Greeks, Egyptians, various spirit-based religions - those are all easily dismissed as being wrong, and now are simply taught as part of history classes, as interesting stories. But these Abrahamic religions, no, we're certain that we've got it right this time. There's absolutely no chance that these religions will fall into the realm of mythology, just like many others before them.
sandorski
No Lifer
- Oct 10, 1999
- 70,885
- 6,421
- 126
Repoxy x Infinity
That said, here are the Cliffs of Truth: 1) there is no "God(s)"; 2) there is no "Satan/Devil"
You're welcome.
That said, even Jesus downplayed the whole issue by essentially saying that Good/Bad things happen to both Good/Bad People. There's nothing Mystical about it, what Happens, Happens.
That said, here are the Cliffs of Truth: 1) there is no "God(s)"; 2) there is no "Satan/Devil"
You're welcome.
That said, even Jesus downplayed the whole issue by essentially saying that Good/Bad things happen to both Good/Bad People. There's nothing Mystical about it, what Happens, Happens.
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