Tibet protests spread to Chinese provinces

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deepred98

Golden Member
Sep 3, 2005
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Originally posted by: MadRat

Originally posted by: sunztOh I guess one tiny little thing... China never signed an agreement with Japan saying that it is part of Japan. Tibet did so with China.

The crux of the matter is that the Japanese did get peace agreements signed during their occupation by puppet rulers that they either installed or by accommodating authorities they found best to be left in place. They treated Chinese people no different than the Chinese treat the Tibetans, using a sham to justify their occupation. Yet you clearly see the problem in the aforementioned example. How very kind of you to point out Native Americans and yet hold a double standard.

I doubt that, otherwise i agree with the second part.

Personally, i don't think tibet should get independence but the Chinese gov needs to give the tibetians (sp?) religious freedom.

Otherwise to say that the tibetians deserve independence just because they were conquered is absurd. By that line of reasoning most modern countries should be broken apart since they were all formed through conquest.
 

LongCoolMother

Diamond Member
Sep 4, 2001
5,675
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i don't see why all the western countries are on China's case in this recent riot. All the videos I've seen showed violent local tibetans beating civilians, looting and vandalizing property, throwing rocks and other dangerous materials at police vehicles and police. And then the rest of the world jumps on the bandwagon and claims 'cultural genocide.' Well, if there is violent civil unrest, then wtf is the government supposed to do? If they don't send in police forces, shops are going to be looted, people killed, and the entire city is going up in flames. If they do send in police, they violate human rights.

Its like if people criticized the government's actions in the LA riots of '92. Darn those oppresive cops. They really should have respected the rioter's rights to riot.
 

babylon5

Golden Member
Dec 11, 2000
1,363
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The End of Tibet

As China tortures monks and drives Tibetans into poverty, many young activists are renouncing the Dalai Lama and resorting to violence. Is one of the world's most ancient cultures facing extinction?

Joshua Kurlantzick

Posted Feb 08, 2007

The small concrete room smells of urine. In the corner, a young woman lies on a metal cot, moaning softly and vomiting up blood. A former Buddhist nun, she is recovering from an operation on her stomach to fix internal injuries caused by beatings from Chinese guards. Her roommate, Lhundrub Zangmo, speaks in a whispery monotone. Zangmo's head is no longer shaven, and her straight black hair falls over her tight sweater emblazoned with the words The Coolest Boy. But even though she has left the clergy, Zangmo remains deeply religious. She has plastered the walls of the tiny room with photos of Buddhist deities and the Dalai Lama, leader of Tibetan Buddhists.

It has been only a few months since Zangmo and her friend fled Tibet on foot over the Himalayas to this squat, block-shaped center for Tibetan refugees in India. The two women had been imprisoned along with a group of other nuns, some for as long as sixteen years. They were first arrested in 1990 for staging a protest in Lhasa, the capital of Tibet, to demonstrate their outrage over China's continuing presence in their native land. As the women chanted "Free Tibet," Chinese police moved quickly, knocking them to the ground and dragging them to jail before their protest could attract attention. Inside the prison, Chinese authorities subjected the nuns to a brutal routine. "Police stuck electric prods into my vagina and then hung me from the ceiling," Zangmo says softly. Her voice doesn't waver, but she looks away. Some of her friends lost consciousness as soon as guards pushed the cattle prods inside them, but Zangmo remained alert throughout the torture. "I was totally, totally frightened," she says.

Police eventually transferred the women to Drapchi, the most feared prison in Lhasa. According to human rights organizations, there are hundreds of political prisoners in Tibet, the majority of them Buddhist clergy. Scores have died from torture at the hands of Chinese authorities: electric shock, hanging, forced blood extraction. "They tried to pull my arms out of my sockets, and beat my legs and arms with metal bars and shocked me," recalls Phuntsog Nyidron, another nun who was imprisoned at Drapchi. "I was worried they could easily kill me." After repeated beatings, a monk named Lobsang Choephel hanged himself at Drapchi, his body dangling from the iron bars of his cell.

The punishment was most severe for those who refused to give up their faith. "In Drapchi, there were numerous demonstrations," Zangmo says. One day, four nuns refused to renounce their Buddhist beliefs in front of the Chinese guards. "They were beaten until they died." Zangmo stares at the floor and starts to cry, her voice breaking. "They died together."

Before places like drapchi existed, Lhasa was the capital of a remote kingdom where a long line of Dalai Lamas presided over a civilization infused with spirituality, perpetuated in more than 6,000 monasteries and protected by the snow-capped Himalayas. In their sacred land, Tibetans built a distinct and mystical culture, a matchless experiment in faith that permeated their lives. "Tibetans are unique on the planet in that their national life is wholly dedicated to Buddhism," says Robert Thurman, the most famous Tibet scholar in America. By developing a worship of living things, he says, Tibetans also preserved the Earth's highest ecosystem, one that comprises biodiversity on the scale of the Amazon and serves as the source of rivers that sustain nearly half the world's population. "This is some of the most important environment in the world," Thurman says, "so fragile that, once it's gone, it can never come back."



Locked away from the world, Tibetans created a religion of otherworldly rituals and monumental structures. Even today, the gleaming white Potala Palace, home to generations of spiritual leaders, towers over Lhasa's modern skyline, its fifty-foot-high tombs of past Dalai Lamas covered in gold and gems. "The Potala looks and feels like no other building on the planet," writes the noted essayist Pico Iyer, who visits Tibet frequently. "But more extraordinary is its meaning: The Potala stood for a unique system in which administrators would be monks, political meetings would include prayers, and law and order was in the hands of a meditating clergy."

For Tibetans, devotion centers on the Dalai Lama, whom they regard as a living god. As Thurman notes, the Dalai Lama's spiritual connection to Tibetans is so great that, for his people, it's as if Jesus still wandered the Earth in person. In a modern world filled with war and consumerism, the current Dalai Lama -- who has lived in exile in Dharamsala, India, since China seized control of Tibet in 1959 -- has become a global icon, inspiring millions in the West. "With the quality of world leaders declining in recent years, the Dalai Lama has become even more important," says Robert Barnett, a Tibet expert at Columbia University. "He is one of the few morally inspiring leaders left."

But Tibet's time may be running out. In the past decade, China has waged a quiet but ruthless war on Tibetan society -- part of a deliberate and sophisticated campaign to strip "the Roof of the World" of any vestige of spirituality or political autonomy. Beijing has systematically replaced Tibet's holiest monks -- the center of Tibetan power -- with its own puppet leaders, torturing and killing those who refuse to submit to Chinese authority. It has flooded Tibet with thousands of Chinese immigrants, who have seized control of local businesses, driving many Tibetans into poverty and prostitution. And as Tibetans have become increasingly powerless in their own land, China has dragged out political talks with the Dalai Lama, causing some supporters to accuse their god-leader of caving in to Beijing. Increasingly, young Tibetans reject the Dalai Lama's commitment to nonviolence, engaging instead in the tactics of Palestinian militants. In a sharp break with the past, Tibetan rebels have stormed Chinese embassies and even cut the throats of Chinese migrants, dumping the corpses in the streets of rural towns as a warning to those they see as collaborators.

"I have no hope for the future," says Lhasang Tsering, one of Tibet's most famous activists. We are speaking in his home in Dharamsala, where he has lived in exile since fleeing Tibet more than two decades ago. "Time is running out," he tells me. "Every day, while we're sitting here praying for world peace, truckloads of Chinese are coming in, and trainloads of Tibetan resources are coming out. Once the Chinese have the land for themselves, they might have a few reservations for ethnic Tibetans, the way you Americans have Native American reservations."

Tsering puts his head in his hands. I look away. When I glance back, his shoulders are heaving with sobs.

Even the Dalai Lama himself, perpetually optimistic about his homeland, cannot help but fear for the future. "This is a critical period for Tibet," he tells me at an event in New York last fall, his face drawn with fatigue. "We don't know what will happen." This, in short, could be the end of Tibet. As the Dalai Lama has warned his people, "We are facing our own extinction."

When china annexed Tibet in 1959, it savaged the country, unleashing Mao's soldiers to tear apart monasteries, shell ancient structures and kill as many as 1.2 million people. Thousands were executed; many more died of starvation, forced to subsist on nothing but a thin gruel made of bark and leaves. "Their bodies became bloated," one senior monk recalled. "Then they lay down, and as the weeks passed, they died."

But such heavy-handed tactics failed to destroy Tibet's cultural identity. By the late 1980s, Tibetans fed up with Chinese oppression began to fight back, pouring into the streets of Lhasa by the thousands to demand independence. Hu Jintao, an obscure party bureaucrat with an Elvis pompadour, imposed martial law, dispatching thousands of soldiers to lock down Tibet. But the strong-arm tactics only served to rally international support for the Tibetan cause. In 1989, the Dalai Lama received the Nobel Peace Prize, and his people's David-and-Goliath struggle appealed to Western artists and politicians as diverse as Richard Gere, Adam Yauch of the Beastie Boys, and the U.S. Congress, which last year voted to award the Dalai Lama the Congressional Gold Medal.

Although the U.S. government officially recognizes Tibet as part of China, it has pressured Beijing to curb its human rights violations. Gregory Craig, who served as special envoy for Tibet in the Clinton administration, recalls a meeting at which then-Secretary of State Madeleine Albright confronted Jiang Zemin, the president of China, with a list of Tibetan political prisoners. Jiang was not pleased. "He went on an uninterrupted twenty-minute monologue on the role of religion in China," Craig recalls.


Today, however, China has adopted a subtler and more sophisticated approach to Tibet. Its new president -- Hu Jintao, the official who once imposed martial law on Tibet -- got smart. He knows that heavy-handed repression only serves to spark international protests, emboldening dissenters in other parts of China. He also covets the billions of barrels of oil and gas recently discovered in Tibet, resources that could help fuel energy-starved China's rapid industrialization. So Beijing has enacted a new policy it calls "grasping with two hands" -- co-opting Tibetans while quietly silencing those who still demand freedom. Rather than putting soldiers in the streets and shelling monasteries, Hu has set out to undermine the core of Tibetan identity: the monkhood.

In Tibet, senior monks known as lamas have historically wielded both spiritual and secular authority, essentially running the state while laying down principles for society to follow. In Lhasa, elderly women still walk in circles for hours around the holy city every morning, murmuring prayers for the lamas' health. In eastern Tibet one day, I watch as pilgrims prostrate themselves before a senior monk. Women push their ill relatives close to the lama, desperate for a prayer of healing. "For older people, their whole lives revolve around their spiritual leaders," says a Tibetan whose elderly mother spends her days walking around Lhasa and praying to her favorite monks. "They will follow monks anywhere."

In public, China has announced new policies promoting tolerance of Buddhism. Beijing has lavished funds on restoring the Potala Palace, for example, and thrown open monasteries to tourists. But across the city from the Potala, a senior monk living in a crumbling earthen hut describes what is really happening. "Plainclothes security are all over the monastery," he tells me. "There's never a time when the monks are together that the public security bureau isn't watching them. The Chinese hold 'patriotic campaigns,' and all the monks are forced to renounce the Dalai Lama."

Like many Tibetans I speak with, the monk asks that his name not be used, for fear of reprisals. Chinese security agents, he says, have cracked down on interactions with foreign visitors. "When I first came here, it wasn't illegal for monks to talk to foreigners," the monk says. "Now it is."

Inside the monasteries, Chinese authorities dominate the education of new monks, barring boys who have any background in political action from becoming lamas and placing strict limits on the number of students. "Management committees" staffed by Chinese officials control monastic activities and indoctrinate monks in Chinese ideology. "The monks will never recover," says one lama. "We cannot have enough boys studying at monasteries, the traditional knowledge is vanishing, and we could just die out. In twenty years, what will be left?" Another monk is even blunter: "This is the end of our entire religious society," he tells me.

Thanks to the new tactics implemented by Hu Jintao, the systematic assault on the monks has received little notice outside Tibet. "China has been skillful in creating a facade of social and political freedom," says one human rights activist who asked not to be identified. "They're not out there cracking the heads of monks, the way they did in the 1980s."

But many Tibetans believe that China continues to back violence against those who defy Beijing. On the evening of February 4th, 1997, monks in the Dalai Lama's central compound in Dharamsala were translating Tibetan scriptures in a room fringed with golden curtains. As they worked, six men armed with knives rushed into the room, attacking the translators. The assassins slit the throat of Lobsang Gyatso, a senior monk and close friend of the Dalai Lama, stabbing him so fiercely that blood splattered the walls. Two other monks who were translating near Lobsang were hacked to death. Though the compound contains priceless artifacts, the killers took nothing of value.

Indian police blamed the killing on Dorje Shugden, an obscure Tibetan Buddhist sect that opposes the Dalai Lama, and many Tibetans believe that China has quietly provided financial support to the Shugden. "Monks who follow Shugden get promoted in China," says one Tibetan monk. "They get support for their monasteries."

At the center of china's campaign to undermine Tibet's monks is the Panchen Lama -- the Buddhist leader who ranks second only to the Dalai Lama. The Panchen not only possesses enormous power in Tibetan society, he also helps select a new Dalai Lama when the previous Dalai dies. Like the most powerful Tibetan lamas, the Panchen is chosen through an ancient process of reincarnation, in which the soul of the dead monk is rediscovered in a young boy. This unique tradition of finding reincarnations is essential to the power of lamas -- Tibetans believe that through rebirth, the soul of Buddha himself lives on in their leaders.

The search for a new Panchen can take years. To find the chosen boy, monks crisscross Tibet's rugged landscape, consulting oracles, visions and markers in the sky or in the waters of Lake Namtso, a turquoise pool perched in the Himalayas, some 15,000 feet above sea level. The searchers may find thousands of children before identifying the one. In the ultimate test, the monks hand a chosen child the dead man's possessions. If the young boy is truly his reincarnation, he recognizes them as his own from his previous life.

For centuries, Tibet had followed these ancient traditions to find its leaders. But in 1989, the year Hu Jintao imposed martial law on Tibet, the tenth Panchen Lama died of a mysterious illness he contracted shortly after he publicly criticized the Chinese government. Many Tibetans believe he was poisoned, and Beijing never allowed an investigation into his death. Suddenly, China had a chance to take control of Tibetan Buddhism. All Beijing had to do was select its own Panchen. Then, when the time came, the Panchen would choose a puppet Dalai Lama beholden to Chinese authorities. The supreme spiritual leader of Tibet would answer directly to Beijing.

The complete story of the selection of the new Panchen Lama has never been told. But one senior monk who took part in the choice, the Arjia Rinpoche, fled Tibet in 1998 and now lives in exile in America. When I located him late last year, I discovered that he had written an unpublished memoir that describes China's role in the selection. Although no writer had read the manuscript, the Arjia agreed to let me review it. It was delivered to me by courier, like an old-school intelligence document, in an unmarked manila envelope. In stacks of pages, the Arjia spills his life story. When I called him, he talked for hours, like a man who had been waiting for years to reveal himself. He kept returning to one date: November 29th, 1995.


Early that morning, the Arjia and other senior monks huddled inside the Jokhang, Lhasa's holiest temple. Flickering lamps fueled by pungent, creamy yak butter lit the interior, casting shadows across the faces of grinning warrior deities painted on the walls. Smoky incense wafted through the temple. On this morning, the deities stood guard over a small golden urn on a table draped with yellow silk. As is traditional in Tibet, monks in long robes surrounded the urn. But in an alarming break from the past, the urn itself had been brought by the Chinese -- and joining the monks were a host of officials from Beijing dressed in sleek modern suits.

The lamas eyed each other nervously. The ceremony could determine the fate of Tibet, but they had not come here voluntarily. The night before, Chinese guards had hustled the monks into the Jokhang, along empty streets patrolled by armed soldiers, and ordered them to prepare for a ceremony. If anyone disrupted the proceedings, one official warned, "We will punish him without mercy." As dawn approached, with undercover Chinese policemen standing in corners, the monks began selecting a Panchen Lama.

Every lama present knew that the ceremony should not be taking place. According to Tibetan tradition, the selection had already been made. Since the previous Panchen died, several leading monks had been working secretly with the Dalai Lama to conduct a search for the next Panchen, quietly following the old traditions. After years of looking for signs, they had identified Gedhun Choekyi Nyima, a boy from a family of herders from Lhari, a region of east-central Tibet. On May 14th, 1995, the Dalai Lama recognized Nyima as the eleventh Panchen Lama.

But Beijing had reacted furiously. Before Nyima could appear in public, Chinese security forces abducted the boy from his home and brought him to Beijing. Then Chinese officials summoned Tibetan monks to an emergency meeting early in November 1995 and ordered them to denounce the Dalai Lama's Panchen. When the monks did as they were told, in front of television cameras, they were each rewarded with $1,250 -- a fortune in a country where the annual per-capita income is less than $500. When the Arjia Rinpoche tried to suggest that China accept Nyima, he was warned, "Never mention that again." China then sent chartered jets to the birthplaces of the boys they wanted to be Panchen Lama and whisked them into hiding.

Now, as dawn approached in the Jokhang, Chinese officials placed pieces of ivory marked with the names of each boy inside the golden urn. Bomi Rinpoche, a Tibetan lama appointed by the Chinese government, approached the table. He rubbed the sides of the urn, picked out one of the ivory lots and handed it to Luo Gan, a top Chinese official. Luo then read the name: Gyaincain Norbu, the six-year-old son of a party member. Surprise -- tiny Norbu happened to be waiting in the next room, dressed in a golden robe and hat. Luo shook Norbu's hand, telling him, "Love the country and study hard." The monks who had just been forced to participate in the destruction of centuries of tradition could only murmur quiet prayers. After Norbu was enthroned, the Dalai Lama's office called the ceremony "invalid and illegal."

Eager to create the fiction that Tibet's top religious leaders endorsed their new Panchen, Chinese officials asked the Arjia Rinpoche to tutor Norbu. "They offered me a Mercedes and a very senior government position," the Arjia says. Beijing also pressured lower-ranking monks to pay respects to Norbu. Only nine days after his selection, Chinese officials brought Norbu to another Tibetan monastery. With soldiers looming in the background, they hoisted the tiny boy into a giant throne and gathered hundreds of monks in front of the child. "The boy was sitting there, and all together we had to prostrate ourselves before him," recalls the Arjia, his voice soft with shame. "It's supposed to be a happy occasion, but no one was smiling."

Norbu has served his purpose. At his first major international event, a conference of Buddhists held in China last April, the boy praised Beijing. "Chinese society," he declared, "provides a favorable environment for Buddhist belief." Appearing before the Chinese media, Norbu added, "We wouldn't have made all these achievements without the good leadership of the Chinese Communist Party." Monks who refuse to appear in public with Norbu have been threatened with expulsion from their monasteries, a crushing blow in Tibetan society.

Shortly after the Buddhism conference, I tracked down one of the few foreigners ever granted an audience with Norbu, an American businessman named Laurence Brahm, who has close relations with both Tibetan lamas and Chinese officials. According to Brahm, Norbu echoed the Chinese government's line, urging Tibetans in exile "to come back and help Tibet." He also grilled Brahm about Christianity, possibly seeking to better understand how the West would react to China's moves in Tibet. With the current Dalai Lama approaching his seventy-second birthday, Norbu is in a position to play a major role in the future of Tibetan Buddhism. According to several sources, Beijing has already created an informal committee to pick a new Dalai Lama, with Norbu to give his seal of approval to China's choice. "The Chinese are thinking they're going to pick their own Dalai Lama," says the Arjia.

Nyima, the Panchen selected by the Dalai Lama, has meanwhile vanished. In April, Asma Jehangir, a United Nations special envoy for freedom of religion, expressed her concern to the Chinese government about Nyima's whereabouts. Beijing refused to present the boy, but informed Jehangir that he was "leading a normal, happy life." Other foreign diplomats have been similarly rebuffed. On a trip to China, former U.S. Assistant Secretary of State Harold Koh asked to see Nyima. "They said that he was fine -- We know where he is, and he's fine," Koh told reporters. When Koh asked to see the boy, he was told, "That's not necessary."

Information about Nyima remains sketchy, his movements tightly managed. But stories trickle out. According to Tibetans who have traveled to Nyima's hometown, the boy remains under guard in Beijing, living a sad, underground life as a political prisoner. Chinese officials, they believe, sometimes smuggle him into Tibet so he can see his family, but his visits are never announced, perhaps for fear that Tibetans would flock to their chosen boy-god. People in Nyima's hometown remain deathly afraid to tell anyone about his visits.

One Tibetan provided me with what he said was a photo of Nyima, which he had obtained from sources close to the boy's family. The snapshot shows a moon-faced kid with short hair. He sits on a simple bed in a bare room. He stares sad-faced and wide-eyed at the camera.

On a dry, clear morning, i climb to the top of the Potala Palace. Gazing across downtown Lhasa, I see a city nothing like the low-lying town of twenty years ago, when Tibetan vendors gathered every morning in the open-air markets to weigh hunks of yak cheese and bloody yak meat, and pilgrims in long cloaks adorned with sashes rubbed prayer beads and murmured to themselves as they circled the Jokhang. In those days, Tibetan nomads wearing sheepskin coats would often ride into town on horseback, herding their flocks of yaks into the streets.

Today Lhasa is booming. In the modern downtown, construction workers dig up entire sections of the city, building new avenues lined with Chinese banks, Chinese department stores and even Chinese fast-food restaurants overlooking the holy Jokhang. Along the main drags, packs of taxis and Chinese tour buses jam the streets, disgorging crowds of visitors who try to collar monks into posing with them or who play scratchy Chinese pop tunes on their cell phones. On side alleys dotted with grim new apartment blocks, recent migrants from China's Sichuan province crowd into four-table hot-pot restaurants, where they use their chopsticks to dip vegetables and tiny chunks of meat into vats of steaming oil sprinkled with fiery Sichuan chilies. Those with more money skip the hot-pot joints and head instead to the new tearooms on the upper floors of hotels, where Chinese businesspeople talk shop over thimble-size cups of tea, bowls of noodles or games of mah-jongg.



As Lhasa is rebuilt from the ground up, Tibetans are being pushed to the margins -- in the newer section of the city, I cannot find a single Tibetan-owned shop. And the pace of change is only likely to increase: Last summer, China opened the first rail line to Tibet, a move expected to flood the territory with as many as 800,000 migrants and tourists each year.

The sweeping changes in Lhasa are no accident. "The government has a long-term strategy to encourage more Chinese businesspeople to come to Tibet, so it'll be easier to control the Tibetan people," admits one former Chinese official. (Although the Chinese embassy declined to comment, many government officials spoke to me on the condition of anonymity.) Beijing has made it easier for migrants to gain residence in Tibet, and the region receives more government subsidies than other provinces in China. The cash has sparked growth and created prosperity -- but it often primarily benefits Chinese migrants. According to one former official, government bureaucrats convince rural Tibetans to give up their land, promising them that they will be given property in the city. "But then they never give the Tibetans any compensation," the official explains. Instead, the bureaucrats give the land to Chinese entrepreneurs, throwing in loans to help them start their own companies.

"Businesses in Tibet simply are being taken over by the Chinese," says one prominent Tibetan. Although Beijing officially denies the rapid influx of Chinese, a top government official admitted to reporters in 2002 that Tibetans would soon become a minority in Lhasa. At the same time, the government ensures the support of provincial officials by paying them some of the highest salaries in China. "The government allows more space for corruption in Tibet," says Lukar Jam, a specialist on Chinese development policy who has worked for the Tibetan government in exile. "The Tibetan officials accept Beijing's policies because they see there will be significant financial benefits."

As Chinese migrants take over the city, they have turned traditional Tibetan culture into a carnival sideshow. One Saturday night, I visit a nightclub in a high-end section of Lhasa. The place is packed with Chinese businessmen, some of whom pay the equivalent of fifty dollars each -- a fortune in Tibet -- for private boxes overlooking the stage. At 11 p.m., Tibetan men dressed in fake animal skins take the stage. The Chinese media often portray Tibet as a wild, savage land, and the performers do their best to embody the stereotype, flashing their bare chests and smashing drums while they chant and shake their long black hair -- a traditional Tibetan dance hyped up for the crowd. Smoke machines and flashing lights illuminate their writhing bodies, while giant speakers pound out traditional Tibetan songs rewritten with Chinese lyrics and hip-hop beats.

When the men are done, female singers in traditional costumes dance toward the edge of the stage, thrusting their hips and pouring shot glasses of alcohol down the throats of favored customers. Chinese tourists and businessmen toss back shots and slip traditional white scarves around the necks of their favorite singers. By midnight the drunkest members of the audience have run onto the stage to slur songs along with the Tibetan performers and pretend to pray like devout Tibetans.

Outside the club, China's policies have succeeded in impoverishing many Tibetans. Robbed of their land and unable to compete with Chinese migrants, Tibetans now suffer the highest poverty rate in China and the worst malnutrition and infant mortality. Young people often cannot find jobs in Chinese-dominated businesses, and many are homeless. On a grassy plain on the outskirts of Lhasa, in the shadow of one of the city's most important monasteries, I come across a cluster of white yurts surrounded by piles of garbage. It is only afternoon, but groups of drunk young men already sit on tiny stools outside the yurts, tossing dice and chugging local brews. Monks in ragged robes caked with dirt wander from yurt to yurt, begging for coins from liquored-up Tibetans. Women circulate through the camp, too, trying to lure men into a yurt for a quickie.

Prostitution is flourishing in Lhasa. By one estimate there are 10,000 sex workers in the Tibetan capital, which has a population of less than 500,000. The day after visiting the yurt camp, I wander to the core of the city. By four in the afternoon, hookers are pouring into the streets. Along a narrow lane near the holiest temples in Tibetan Buddhism, young women wear knee-high boots, push-up bras and so much eye shadow that they resemble the evil offspring of Courtney Love and Katherine Harris. The girls, many of them no more than adolescents, press themselves against the glass windows of their brothels. As Chinese and Tibetan men stroll by, the hookers run outside, trying to drag them through their doorway.

Inside one brothel, a concrete and metal shack with large windows exposing the front room like a fishbowl, a fourteen-year-old girl takes my hand, leading me into the back. Welts cover her stomach, which is exposed by her tube top. There is nothing on the concrete walls, and the concrete floor is bare save for a small square of moldering linoleum. The girl points to the bed and offers sexual intercourse for ten dollars. When I pull away, she cups her breasts in her hands and halves the price to five dollars.

On a larger boulevard near the brothels, Chinese and Tibetan men saunter through a maze of sex shops that sell dildos, inflatable breasts and other sex toys. Some pick out herbal remedies from the shelves, Viagra-like potions designed to keep you hard all night. Others wander next door to small convenience stores selling massive containers of beer. Behind the convenience shops, the heaviest drinkers have collapsed on the ground, their faces red, their clothes stained with food and feces. Laughing Tibetan children kick a soccer ball around the drunks' prostrate bodies.

In a back alley behind the convenience stores, other prostitutes negotiate with customers. A girl shaped like a child's top offers me oral sex for five bucks. When I turn away she, too, lowers the price -- to three dollars, pleading for me to stay. As I walk away, she shrieks, a pained scream.

Since he fled to india in 1959, the Dalai Lama has remained the only figure able to keep his people from succumbing to utter despair. For Tibetans, the fact that he lives offers some meager hope they will not be forgotten by the world. His writings are smuggled into Tibet, and his speeches are broadcast on stations like Radio Free Asia, a U.S.-funded broadcaster. Almost every Tibetan I speak to tells me that their greatest wish is for the Dalai Lama to return to his homeland. In the ultimate tribute to their love, Tibetans frequently praise his name in public, knowing that doing so can result in harsh treatment. "I knew that I would go to prison," says a former monk who screamed out blessings for the Dalai Lama in front of Chinese police and paid for it with years of beatings. "We will never forget him."

Eventually, however, even a living god must die. Facing his own mortality, the Dalai Lama has adopted an approach to Beijing that he calls the Middle Way. Instead of demanding independence for Tibet, as he did for decades, he affirms that the land is part of China and calls only for greater political and cultural autonomy. China has responded by quietly opening a dialogue with the Dalai Lama's envoys about the future of Tibet.


Lodi Gyari, a Tibetan diplomat based in Washington who leads the Dalai Lama's negotiators, insists that the talks are essential for China. Tibetans will be furious, he warns, if their spiritual leader dies in exile without stepping foot in Tibet again. "The only person who can provide them with legitimacy is the Dalai Lama," Gyari says.

But others say privately that China is simply using the negotiations to co-opt the Dalai Lama and blunt international criticism. Despite five rounds of talks, the Chinese have offered nothing concrete, and a source close to Beijing policymakers tells me that China believes it has no need to make a deal. "The view in China among the leaders is still of the Dalai Lama as a traitor," says a scholar with close ties to Beijing. Even a senior U.S. official worries that "the Chinese are engaged in the dialogue just to please the U.S. -- they have no desire to do more than that."

China's strategy seems to have succeeded: When Hu Jintao visited America last year, the Dalai Lama quietly asked Tibetans not to protest. "The Chinese government has been very successful in convincing the Dalai Lama to exercise some control over Tibetan exiles," says Tenzin Dorjee, a leader of Students for a Free Tibet, a prominent activist group based in New York. Some furious Tibetans go even further, accusing their god-leader of unwittingly selling out to the Chinese. "There's anger and frustration and disappointment with the Dalai Lama's envoys," says Lhadon Tethong, head of the student group. "We don't support this appeasement line."

In the past, such blunt opposition to the Dalai Lama would have resulted in ostracism. But these days, such sentiments can be heard throughout the exile community in Dharamsala. One day, in the middle of a downpour, I drink tea with Tenzin Tsundue, a young Tibetan whose wispy goatee and intense stare give him a striking resemblance to Che Guevara. After the Dalai Lama, Tsundue has become the most prominent figure in the exile community. Unwilling to accept anything less than complete independence, he and his supporters have abandoned the Dalai Lama's peaceful approach, drawing inspiration instead from the Palestinians and other militant organizations. "Youngsters tell me they don't want to join a nonviolent protest," says Tsundue. "Youngsters feel nonviolence is getting nothing."

In Tibetan universities and monasteries, activists tell me, underground cells have formed to organize resistance to Chinese rule. In rural Tibet, Chinese truck drivers have been ambushed and killed. In the age of CNN and the Internet, says an associate of the Dalai Lama, young Tibetans "know about suicide bombers and Afghanistan and Iraq, and it doesn't take a lot of ingenuity for a small group of Tibetans to emulate these tactics. It's a powder keg."

"Young people are going to become more aggressive," agrees Sonam Wangdu, one of Tibet's most respected activists and writers. "They can see how other nations, like East Timor or the Soviet countries, were able to get their independence back. They will attack."

In India, young Tibetan activists have stormed Chinese embassies, clashing with guards. During a recent summit between India and China, a young Tibetan attempted to immolate himself near a luxury hotel in Bombay where Hu Jintao was staying. Several years earlier, another Tibetan named Thupten Ngodup burned himself to death. The Dalai Lama openly despaired that his message of nonviolence was not reaching Tibetans, but Ngodup became a martyr figure among young Tibetan hard-liners. Thousands of demonstrators attended his funeral in Dharamsala. "Self-immolation was very inspiring for the Tibetan people," says Kalsang Phuntsok, head of the Tibetan Youth Congress in Dharamsala. "It showed the younger people that they could sacrifice for the Tibetan people."

With his bushy hair, stilted English and trim suit, Phuntsok seems like a cartoon version of a 1960s British mod. But the group he leads is the largest Tibetan exile organization, with some 15,000 members. "It's my responsibility to tell people what will be the scenario when the Dalai Lama is no more," Phuntsok tells me, pounding his fist into his palm. I ask him about the Middle Way, and he emits a snarly laugh. "We are nullifying all we have achieved in the past forty-five years," he says. "We are admitting at the international level that Tibetan people, and the Dalai Lama, are happy in China. We need to educate Tibetans that attacking China is the only way. If you're willing to die, you have no fear."

Tibetan hard-liners are considering a range of possible targets, including the 2008 Olympics in Beijing and the new train line to Lhasa. "The railway has been built, and it'll be there," says Tsundue. "Unless you bomb it, you'll get no attention."

Yet violence could play into China's hands, enabling Beijing to tar Tibetan activists as violent fanatics. "If they turn to violence," says Robert Thurman, "all their legitimacy would be gone." Taking advantage of the hysteria surrounding the war on terror, China has already claimed that Tibetan activists are terrorists and has held counterterrorism exercises in Tibet. The Panchen Lama selected by China is so despised in Tibet that he travels to monasteries under heavy guard, fearful that he will be murdered by the very people who supposedly worship him.

Discovered as the reincarnation of the previous Dalai Lama at age two, the current Dalai Lama had to assume responsibility for his people at a young age. Normally, a regent ran Tibet while a young Dalai Lama grew into manhood, but with Chinese troops approaching his land, the Dalai Lama assumed the power of head of state in 1950, while still a teenager. "I could not refuse my responsibilities," he has said. "I had to shoulder them, put my boyhood behind me."

Carrying a nation on your back never gets easier. On a recent morning in New York, I wait for the Dalai Lama in a small room above a conference room where he is scheduled to speak. On his visits to America, the Tibetan leader packs in dozens, even hundreds, of events; the previous day, he flew from New York to California and back, at the behest of Maria Shriver, for another appearance. Now, he sweeps into the room flanked by a small army of bodyguards. He sits across from me at a small table, his head down. Friends say the Dalai Lama cannot hide his feelings, and today his seemingly limitless energy and enthusiasm have been replaced by gloom and fatigue. Groups like Students for a Free Tibet have stepped up their complaints about his decision to abandon independence, and even his own brother recently contradicted him by declaring that China is giving no ground to Tibetans.


"There is definitely more criticism from our own people and also from our supporters," the Dalai Lama tells me, his voice a low rumble. "More and more criticism about our Middle Way approach."

He begins to outline the threats facing Tibet. The attitude of Chinese officials, he admits, is "not encouraging." The new railroad to Lhasa has brought rampant development that poses "consequences on the wild animals and also the environment." I try to interrupt him, but he keeps talking, caught up in the litany of concerns. "And then the demographic pressure is also increasing, and the ecological consequences are very serious."

But as he comes to the end of his soliloquy, the Dalai Lama's face suddenly brightens. There is still hope for the future, he insists. "This is not a question of my return to Tibet but a question of this century," he says. "So therefore, the Tibet issue will not go away."

When our interview ends, I mention to the Dalai Lama that I have recently returned from Tibet, a land he has not been able to visit for almost half a century. He beams. "Oh!" he shouts. "Oh!" Eager for firsthand accounts, he pumps me for information about the new railroad to Lhasa. "Did you see new towns along the train?" he asks. "I've heard there are many new Chinese towns."

As I try to describe what I saw, the Dalai Lama's aides grow nervous; dignitaries wait in the next room for a photo shoot. But the Tibetan leader ignores their entreaties, firing questions at me. "Did you see an impact on the environment?" he asks. The aides stare pointedly at their watches, but the Dalai Lama seems to want more, desperate for any information about his homeland.

Finally, the aides get his attention. The Dalai Lama grasps my hands. "Thank you," he says, staring hard at me. His robes rustle as he heads into the next room.

Watching him go, I am reminded that, to a very real extent, the future of Tibet resides in this elderly man. In an era of terror, his message of steadfast peace in the face of destruction has proven an inspiration to people far beyond his own land. "He has given something indelible to the world," writes the essayist Pico Iyer. "He has shown that justice and nonviolence have a power of their own. And he has shown that globalism can be a way of taking seriously the idea that all of us are one another's neighbors."

But despite the Dalai Lama's immense accomplishments, no leader has emerged who can take his place, and the violence in Tibet is only likely to increase once he is gone. "When the Dalai Lama passes away, it's a real mess," admits Randy Schriver, a former senior official in the U.S. State Department. Worse, it will be at least twenty years before the next Dalai Lama, once he is found and chosen, becomes old enough to lead his people. By that time, given the rapid influx of Chinese and the next generation's growing disillusionment with nonviolence, the Roof of the World may no longer be recognizable as Tibetan. "Right now, Tibetans have nothing more to lose," says a prominent businessman in Lhasa, echoing the concerns of those who fear that one of the world's oldest cultures is coming to an end. "It's like we have a gun at the back of our head and a ditch in front of us."



Rollingstone.com
 

glutenberg

Golden Member
Sep 2, 2004
1,942
0
0
Originally posted by: Jaskalas
In light of the reference and comparison between Tibet and Palestinians, I feel the need to clarify a point.

I say an oppressed people who would rather die on their feet than live on their knees should remind Americans of, themselves. The right of self determination should be the right of all men.

That oppression when resolved by secession is the right of all men, as spelled out by our declaration of independence.

That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government

That does not condone for example, Germany destroying and taking over Europe in WW2 because Europe ?oppressed? it. That does not condone aggressive acts of war, be they conventional or terrorism. It only covers the right to secede, as our forefathers declared the self evident right of all men.

To twist secession to justify aggression is an abomination to the meaning of self determination. That is why it applies to Tibet and why it might not apply to another.

I'm curious as to your thoughts of the US Civil War in regards to your post. Would that be a closer example to what you're thinking?
 

Throckmorton

Lifer
Aug 23, 2007
16,830
3
0
Originally posted by: Qianglong
so i guess tibetans want to go back to slavery under the lamas..

Funny how it's Chinese people posting the pro-China, anti-Tibet propaganda.
 

GrGr

Diamond Member
Sep 25, 2003
3,204
0
76
Originally posted by: LongCoolMother
i don't see why all the western countries are on China's case in this recent riot. All the videos I've seen showed violent local tibetans beating civilians, looting and vandalizing property, throwing rocks and other dangerous materials at police vehicles and police. And then the rest of the world jumps on the bandwagon and claims 'cultural genocide.' Well, if there is violent civil unrest, then wtf is the government supposed to do? If they don't send in police forces, shops are going to be looted, people killed, and the entire city is going up in flames. If they do send in police, they violate human rights.

Its like if people criticized the government's actions in the LA riots of '92. Darn those oppresive cops. They really should have respected the rioter's rights to riot.

I bet if Americans tried to do that today they'd be shot dead in no time. Isn't that what people say on here? Throw a rock against a police officer and you have hot copper and lead coming back your way. Probably you don't even have to throw a rock just give the police officer cause to see you 'move in a threatening manner' so something like that.

 

sunzt

Diamond Member
Nov 27, 2003
3,076
3
81
Originally posted by: MadRat
You obviously have never met Native Americans as they call themselves. They were hardly native to the country any more than the people that came from abroad. And they've hardly helped themselves out of their quagmire. These people remain poor if they choose to stay on the reservations, otherwise they enjoy every bit the same opportunities as the rest of the U.S. citizens... only they have a myriad of sweet deals when it comes to financing and secondary schooling. If they do not take advantage of the sweet deals it is their own tough luck. They leave money unspent that is free to them. The waste is their own silent protest over something long since out of their control.

Ok, so you're saying Native Americans who have been in America centuries longer than colonists that came from abroad have no more of a claim to their land than the colonists who just arrived... right... makes perfect sense. They chose to remain poor, huh? So I guess the sweet awesome reserve land promised to them, which was really a shtihole that the US gave them wasn't made out as sweet as they said? The US would never misrepresent and try to mislead those people into moving away. Oh at least they had options: lose your land and move to a crappy land, or stay and lose your land and be treated as a second hand civilian, what a sweet deal. Maybe they should have done something that would have been in the American spirit and fought for their land. "An oppressed people who would rather die on their feet than live on their knees should remind Americans of, themselves. The right of self determination should be the right of all men." You can say whatever twisted reasons to justify the systematic genocide of the Native Americans, including blaming them for it, but it's still what it is.

Originally posted by: MadRat
The Chinese led the vacuum filling but hardly are responsible for repulsing the Japanese. The Soviets and Americans definitely caused the war to end. The Chinese could never have liberated themselves. In hindsight would it of been more wise to leave the Nipponese invaders there? By using the gist of your own opinions on Tibet as the template it would have been no different.

Right... the Chinese did nothing to add to help resolve WW2, they didn't keep the Japanese land forces busy, they didn't help Americans, they didn't help the Soviets, they just should have just let the Japanese take over the country so the Japs can focus all their efforts on the Soviets and use all of China's infrastructure to fuel their war machine. I mean, come on, it's not like fighting Germany and all of Japan's land forces would have made much of a difference to the Soviets right? It's not like China did anything to keep Japan from making further inlands into the USSR or to keep them from taking more land to fuel their war machine. Maybe the Chinese should have just let the Americans and Soviets do all the work for them because they didn't need anyone else on their side win the war right? Just drop a few nukes and everything is done. :roll:

Edit: The Japs already announced (in China at least) they were leaving China before the A-bomb. The Chinese already pushed the Japs out of central China by this point.

Originally posted by: MadRat
The crux of the matter is that the Japanese did get peace agreements signed during their occupation by puppet rulers that they either installed or by accommodating authorities they found best to be left in place. They treated Chinese people no different than the Chinese treat the Tibetans, using a sham to justify their occupation. Yet you clearly see the problem in the aforementioned example. How very kind of you to point out Native Americans and yet hold a double standard.

Puppet rulers != Dalai Lama. The 14th Dali Lama, the official authority for the Tibetan people, signed the document, not some obviously fake puppet. The difference between Native Americans and Tibetans is that the Tibetans are still living in the region they historically occupied and were not forced out into reservations to live in or die. There was also no planned mass genocide of the Tibetan people to erase them from existence.

Originally posted by: MadRat
They treated Chinese people no different than the Chinese treat the Tibetans

Wow.... you have no idea ..... wow... let me know when China commits a Rape of Lhasa or use Tibetan comfort women for the military..... just plain ignorant.
 

ericlp

Diamond Member
Dec 24, 2000
6,133
219
106
Originally posted by: LongCoolMother
i don't see why all the western countries are on China's case in this recent riot. All the videos I've seen showed violent local tibetans beating civilians, looting and vandalizing property, throwing rocks and other dangerous materials at police vehicles and police. And then the rest of the world jumps on the bandwagon and claims 'cultural genocide.' Well, if there is violent civil unrest, then wtf is the government supposed to do? If they don't send in police forces, shops are going to be looted, people killed, and the entire city is going up in flames. If they do send in police, they violate human rights.

Its like if people criticized the government's actions in the LA riots of '92. Darn those oppresive cops. They really should have respected the rioter's rights to riot.

WTF do you think they should do... Well, naturally they should be water boarding them and torturing them like we do!!! It's ok for us to do anything we want but another country try that shit? No way!!!!

Personally, I like the way China gets the job done. We are too soft on crime here. All our cops are looked at with no respect. It's sad really. I think if we had a police force like china you might not see people throw out trash of their car windows... I knew this thread would come up... It was a matter of time... I happen to like the way china deals with it's problems. That is why they have a very low crime rate there ... They deal with it not like here in the USA... Bunch of BS...

Go China... get the job done... All those assholes over there making a muck of things because they want China to look bad. Well, it's their country their rules let em rule the way they want. Too bad if the take a hard line against crime... deal with it...



 

MadRat

Lifer
Oct 14, 1999
11,910
238
106
Ignorance, sunzt, is to look elsewhere for an example and then go on to prove the point made by your counterpart. Like I said, you are completely wrong to compare Native Americans with Tibetans. The few Native American tribes that have reservations today have dual citizenship, the ones that live there do so to honor their culture. The reservations were set up after specific treaties, they are not fixed plots of land for all time and the sites have been moved at the discretion of the American government. The Native Americans chose to settle the land they are provided, its not forced upon them and they are free to live elsewhere as citizens of the United States. Unlike Tibet, the Native American tribes had no fixed borders or unifying culture, every tribe had its own identity. Likewise, today every tribe that continues to exist has its own identity and some even enjoy free land specifically reserved for them. Add in free services on the reservations per different agreements, free college education grants, free monthly stipends, free assembly on their reservations, no military presence on the reservations, and the ability to collectively barter as independent tribes for future concessions. The argument you made is nonsense.

Second, throwing human waves of peasants into the bullets of Japanese in order to engage them in hand to hand combat is no way to protect its citizenry. The defense of China was just as barbaric as the invasion, so don't even bother to suggest Chinese rulers bravely repelled the invasion.

Furthermore, the Tibetan people were plundered and raped nothing short of the same way Japan plundered and raped China. You, sir, are incorrigible.
 

KMFJD

Lifer
Aug 11, 2005
29,197
42,324
136
Originally posted by: Qianglong
so i guess tibetans want to go back to slavery under the lamas..

Slavery under the Lama's or cultural genocide under China, damn that's a tough choice....
 

glutenberg

Golden Member
Sep 2, 2004
1,942
0
0
Originally posted by: Throckmorton
Originally posted by: Qianglong
so i guess tibetans want to go back to slavery under the lamas..

Funny how it's Chinese people posting the pro-China, anti-Tibet propaganda.

No funnier than Westerners hopping on the Western bandwagon.
 

sunzt

Diamond Member
Nov 27, 2003
3,076
3
81
Originally posted by: MadRat
Ignorance, sunzt, is to look elsewhere for an example and then go on to prove the point made by your counterpart. Like I said, you are completely wrong to compare Native Americans with Tibetans. The few Native American tribes that have reservations today have dual citizenship, the ones that live there do so to honor their culture. The reservations were set up after specific treaties, they are not fixed plots of land for all time and the sites have been moved at the discretion of the American government. The Native Americans chose to settle the land they are provided, its not forced upon them and they are free to live elsewhere as citizens of the United States. Unlike Tibet, the Native American tribes had no fixed borders or unifying culture, every tribe had its own identity. Likewise, today every tribe that continues to exist has its own identity and some even enjoy free land specifically reserved for them. Add in free services on the reservations per different agreements, free college education grants, free monthly stipends, free assembly on their reservations, no military presence on the reservations, and the ability to collectively barter as independent tribes for future concessions. The argument you made is nonsense.

Second, throwing human waves of peasants into the bullets of Japanese in order to engage them in hand to hand combat is no way to protect its citizenry. The defense of China was just as barbaric as the invasion, so don't even bother to suggest Chinese rulers bravely repelled the invasion.

Furthermore, the Tibetan people were plundered and raped nothing short of the same way Japan plundered and raped China. You, sir, are incorrigible.

I'm not disagreeing with what you're saying about Native Americans TODAY at all. I never even said anything bad about how Native Americans are being treated TODAY, they're not oppressed anymore. The comparisons I made with second hand citizens was in correlation with the time period that they were getting forced out decades ago. Today, yes, Native Americans are being treated a lot better and get lots of benefits, however I was never comparing their situation TODAY. You keep describing their advantageous situation TODAY... great ... so what...you think I didn't know? I've never said they were being oppressed or mistreated TODAY. The argument is that it the benefits that Native Americans enjoy today are the result of the fact that the US government finally admitted to and are trying to compensate for a systematic genocide of the Native American people decades after the fact. You should ask the Native Americans if they liked the trade-offs between a mass genocide of their people vs their benefits today and let me know what they say. If they're cool with it then maybe the Chinese should model the American way and kill all of the Tibetans and give them sweet benefits decades later when most of them gone.

China's strategy to stall the war and employ scorched earth was the only real option available to them and that proved to be the winning strategy to eventually repel the invasion. I am proud that they did, otherwise Japan would have conquered China, is that what you would have preferred? Of course millions of people died, China was a unprepared nation fighting an extremely powerful military nation. You don't think using your biggest advantage (numbers) is a reasonable option to fight a war such as this? China had no mechanized divisions, and few armored forces. It's not like the Chinese soldiers were armed with pickaxes and forks, they had guns you know. You rather they have rolled over and let the Japanese conquer China's resources? Was it not brave of the soldiers who fought in the American Civil War to walk in wave after wave to their death to defend their land? You sound like someone who would have called the Viet Cong's strategy "cowardly" because it wasn't standard military tactics and rules.

Comparing the atrocities the Japanese inflicted upon the Chinese and others during that time to how the Chinese treat Tibetans is grotesquely incorrigible and disrespectful to all of the nationalities the Japanese did this to. That statement along with your other ones about China shows just how incredibly skewed you are to label anything the Chinese do as bad, and just how eager you are to put down anything good about China. Yes, I understand China is not perfect and it has its own share of problems that I disagree with their government's policy about, but at least I realize there's lots of progress being made.

I don't hear anyone referring to Tibet as the forgotten holocaust.
The Chinese are treating Tibetans like this?
Edit: Yes, i do know there have been targeted killings in the past of the Tibetan people and torture of specific Tibetans (which I don't agree with), but nothing on the order the Japanese did.
 

LongCoolMother

Diamond Member
Sep 4, 2001
5,675
0
0
Originally posted by: MadRat
Ignorance, sunzt, is to look elsewhere for an example and then go on to prove the point made by your counterpart. Like I said, you are completely wrong to compare Native Americans with Tibetans. The few Native American tribes that have reservations today have dual citizenship, the ones that live there do so to honor their culture. The reservations were set up after specific treaties, they are not fixed plots of land for all time and the sites have been moved at the discretion of the American government. The Native Americans chose to settle the land they are provided, its not forced upon them and they are free to live elsewhere as citizens of the United States. Unlike Tibet, the Native American tribes had no fixed borders or unifying culture, every tribe had its own identity. Likewise, today every tribe that continues to exist has its own identity and some even enjoy free land specifically reserved for them. Add in free services on the reservations per different agreements, free college education grants, free monthly stipends, free assembly on their reservations, no military presence on the reservations, and the ability to collectively barter as independent tribes for future concessions. The argument you made is nonsense.

Second, throwing human waves of peasants into the bullets of Japanese in order to engage them in hand to hand combat is no way to protect its citizenry. The defense of China was just as barbaric as the invasion, so don't even bother to suggest Chinese rulers bravely repelled the invasion.

Furthermore, the Tibetan people were plundered and raped nothing short of the same way Japan plundered and raped China. You, sir, are incorrigible.

I don't think it's nonsense. Americans were extremely brutal in dealing with the Native Americans in the 19th century. I've haven't studied Native American history in detail, but we've all read, at some point or other, about Andrew Jackson's dealings with them. The Indian Removal policy, the thousands of lives lost in the resulting Trail of Tears, and the President's orders to the military to slaughter as many Bison as possible in order to destroy the Indians' main sources of food. This says nothing, however, about how I feel about the Tibetans and their plight. I do believe that the Tibetans should have the right to voice their opinions without the threats of the CCP. But I also feel there is nothing wrong with the way the government responded to this latest episode in Lhasa. Apparently reports say local Tibetans were targeting racial violence at local Chinese citizens and their business, as well as throwing dangerous debris at authorities. Given the circumstances, the correct course of action is police intervention.

And the Chinese military wasn't even close to being strong enough to repel the Japanese invaders. What could be done? The Japanese had planned beforehand to take the entirety of China in 3 months. Early on, the Chinese put up an extremely strong defense in Shanghai given the odds-- an embarrassment to the Japanese army actually, but the Japanese aggressors had an advantage in every respect.

You're right in that it would be entirely inaccurate to say the Chinese defeated the Japanese on their own. Chiang may have worried a bit too much about fighting the Communists rather than the Japanese. The Chinese army eventually withdrew entirely to a strategy of stalling, out of desperation, and waiting for Japan to provoke other nations like the US.

But to suggest that China did not contribute to the Allies' endeavors would be wrong. With American and Soviet equipment, the Chinese were able to wage war far more effectively against the Japanese, and the tide in the Pacific turned largely due to Chinese personnel/efforts. I'd say they should be commended-- given the hand they were dealt.
 

Qianglong

Senior member
Jan 29, 2006
937
0
0
Tibet WAS,IS,and ALWAYS WILL BE a part of China

To you western people who think tibet should be independant, maybe you should all pack up and go back to europe where your native ancestors are from. For Canadian's support tibetans, let quebec declare independance.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zUeL-9DV7o0
 

ZzZGuy

Golden Member
Nov 15, 2006
1,855
0
0
Originally posted by: Qianglong
Tibet WAS,IS,and ALWAYS WILL BE a part of China

To you western people who think tibet should be independant, maybe you should all pack up and go back to europe where your native ancestors are from. For Canadian's support tibetans, let quebec declare independance.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zUeL-9DV7o0

In 1980 and 1995 there was a referendum in Quebec on wither or not they wanted to separate from Canada, it was defeated both times by a narrow majority (only Quebecers could vote on it).

Since then the government has addressed the issues which caused such a situation (mainly a erosion of their French culture and language).


Piss poor comparison.
 

MadRat

Lifer
Oct 14, 1999
11,910
238
106
Originally posted by: Qianglong
Tibet WAS,IS,and ALWAYS WILL BE a part of China

To you western people who think tibet should be independant, maybe you should all pack up and go back to europe where your native ancestors are from. For Canadian's support tibetans, let quebec declare independance.

Your first statement is false and has already been covered. The second post was a clear support of Throckmorton's statement. I am going to have to agree with Throckmorton, the Chinese seem to readily believe China has a right to sovereignty over Tibet whereas people of the West do not. Maybe it is because we see how China screwed up its society for 3,000 years prior to the arrival of Marco Polo, and how only after the West felt shame for its own treatment of the Chinese did something change in how we view the pitiful culture. It is only through the modern version of the human (suicide) wave that China was able to prop itself out of the self-destruction. And now that the blowback effect of rapid success is rearing its ugly head (namely trying to paint lipstick on a pig of a regime) let us see how China continues its economic development. Will it succumb to market forces, raising wages for its peasants and out-pricing itself compared to regional wages, or will it be able to somehow defy the laws of economics?
 

Qianglong

Senior member
Jan 29, 2006
937
0
0
Originally posted by: MadRat
Originally posted by: Qianglong
Tibet WAS,IS,and ALWAYS WILL BE a part of China

To you western people who think tibet should be independant, maybe you should all pack up and go back to europe where your native ancestors are from. For Canadian's support tibetans, let quebec declare independance.

Your first statement is false and has already been covered. The second post was a clear support of Throckmorton's statement. I am going to have to agree with Throckmorton, the Chinese seem to readily believe China has a right to sovereignty over Tibet whereas people of the West do not. Maybe it is because we see how China screwed up its society for 3,000 years prior to the arrival of Marco Polo, and how only after the West felt shame for its own treatment of the Chinese did something change in how we view the pitiful culture. It is only through the modern version of the human (suicide) wave that China was able to prop itself out of the self-destruction. And now that the blowback effect of rapid success is rearing its ugly head (namely trying to paint lipstick on a pig of a regime) let us see how China continues its economic development. Will it succumb to market forces, raising wages for its peasants and out-pricing itself compared to regional wages, or will it be able to somehow defy the laws of economics?


According to you, china screwed up the society for 3000 years out of a$$ you pull? Maybe 3000 years ago your land is still inhabited by bushman and natives when the chinese already has a civilization? So you american's didn't mess yourself up during the civil war?
 

Lt 486

Banned
Mar 17, 2008
36
0
0
Originally posted by: Qianglong
Originally posted by: MadRat
Originally posted by: Qianglong
Tibet WAS,IS,and ALWAYS WILL BE a part of China

To you western people who think tibet should be independant, maybe you should all pack up and go back to europe where your native ancestors are from. For Canadian's support tibetans, let quebec declare independance.

Your first statement is false and has already been covered. The second post was a clear support of Throckmorton's statement. I am going to have to agree with Throckmorton, the Chinese seem to readily believe China has a right to sovereignty over Tibet whereas people of the West do not. Maybe it is because we see how China screwed up its society for 3,000 years prior to the arrival of Marco Polo, and how only after the West felt shame for its own treatment of the Chinese did something change in how we view the pitiful culture. It is only through the modern version of the human (suicide) wave that China was able to prop itself out of the self-destruction. And now that the blowback effect of rapid success is rearing its ugly head (namely trying to paint lipstick on a pig of a regime) let us see how China continues its economic development. Will it succumb to market forces, raising wages for its peasants and out-pricing itself compared to regional wages, or will it be able to somehow defy the laws of economics?


According to you, china screwed up the society for 3000 years out of a$$ you pull? Maybe 3000 years ago your land is still inhabited by bushman and natives when the chinese already has a civilization? So you american's didn't mess yourself up during the civil war?

Do not get excited. Its racial issue. What is allowed to white men is not allowed to asians.
Westerners will never look at chinese as equals unless China wins a war against the West (any war). Humans are made that way, we respect those who stronger than us, and spit on those who weaker than us. Asia is weaker than West. Hence...
 

MadRat

Lifer
Oct 14, 1999
11,910
238
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Originally posted by: QianglongAccording to you, china screwed up the society for 3000 years out of a$$ you pull? Maybe 3000 years ago your land is still inhabited by bushman and natives when the chinese already has a civilization? So you american's didn't mess yourself up during the civil war?

Let's see, you want to criticize a civil war that settled once and for all that the Union of the States had sovereignty over the individual states chartered underneath, the very same states that had to submit their own charter to become a part of the Union of the States? And a byproduct of the war was that slavery was outlawed. I don't see the correlation.

China on the other hand has never had a Bill of Rights by the people, a Magna Carta moment where the people declared their sovereignty, a Declaration of Independence... correct? And the fact that each individual country - in what you'd consider to be in the West - has abandoned the ackwards bass thinking of everyone for the greater good of the ruling party AND sovereignty of the individual, you consider this to be inferior to your China? Seems to me that the East is largely centuries of revolution behind schedule. Wake me up when you catch up.
 

ahurtt

Diamond Member
Feb 1, 2001
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Originally posted by: magomago

Note to china: flooding in tens of millions of immigrants, claiming you are pouring tens of billions of dollars in development when most of those jobs go to the immigrant han...ruthelessly repressing ANY kind of dissent (Even that which isn't calling for outright independence) is realllllly going to piss off a local population. In fact it pushes them toward independence even more. There is a reason why they don't just willingly jump to assimilate - because from their eyes it looks like you are trying to eradicate them.

Which is sorta like why a lot of people in the U.S. are so bent out of shape about illegal immigration. What is it. . .12+ million and counting?

(sorry for the brief tangent)
 

MadRat

Lifer
Oct 14, 1999
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Originally posted by: Lt 486
Do not get excited. Its racial issue. What is allowed to white men is not allowed to asians.

Westerners will never look at chinese as equals unless China wins a war against the West (any war). Humans are made that way, we respect those who stronger than us, and spit on those who weaker than us. Asia is weaker than West. Hence...

You're insane to believe anything you just posted. War between the East and West, be it with guns or money, is an unacceptable end game to both parties. Asia is not less weak in any way, shape, or form. They found out by human exploitation they could get a significant advantage. Unfortunately it is at the expense of the individual. In the West the people have routinely run across these asinine principles and revolted against them.
 

Lt 486

Banned
Mar 17, 2008
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Originally posted by: MadRat
Originally posted by: Lt 486
Do not get excited. Its racial issue. What is allowed to white men is not allowed to asians.

Westerners will never look at chinese as equals unless China wins a war against the West (any war). Humans are made that way, we respect those who stronger than us, and spit on those who weaker than us. Asia is weaker than West. Hence...

You're insane to believe anything you just posted. War between the East and West, be it with guns or money, is an unacceptable end game to both parties. Asia is not less weak in any way, shape, or form. They found out by human exploitation they could get a significant advantage. Unfortunately it is at the expense of the individual. In the West the people have routinely run across these asinine principles and revolted against them.

I do not advocate for war between East and West. I just pointed out that westerners consider themselves better than asians simply because they had not been defeated by asians.

That is why Quebec, Land of Basq, Corsica and North Ireland is one thing, and Kosovo, Tibet, Taiwan and Chechnya is another.

As for human exloitation... I have never seen anyone working as hard as american middle and lower class workers.
 

Jetster

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Aug 1, 2005
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it seem western media has jumped the gun again on how China put down brute crackdown and killing protesters, it's the opposite that happened, at least according to a recent interview by cnn to one of the few foreign reporter who just returned from Tibet, who actually seen what really happened there. http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/...s.interview/index.html
Because of Olympic, the Chinese government didnt know what to do at the beginning, they waited hoping some small clashes would die down how its own, and they finally sent in troops when it spread out of control. Under its usual heavy handed approach, China would simply crush protesters before it even begins.
Either way, the Chinese government looks pretty bad both externally and internally. It highlighted China's failure policy on how to deal with Tibetans, it seems the two groups are drifting further apart instead of instead of integrating more closely like China hoped. Internally, the government also pissed off its own people, by not dealing with situation in time, and allowing it getting out of hand, Chinese business got destroyed, and people killed.
And Tibetans didnt walk away all innocent either, all the videos and pictures showing them riding on horsebacks going all wild, looting, burning and throwing rocks has destroyed a lot image in western people's mind being peaceful and spiritual.
 

LongCoolMother

Diamond Member
Sep 4, 2001
5,675
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Originally posted by: MadRat
Originally posted by: Qianglong
Tibet WAS,IS,and ALWAYS WILL BE a part of China

To you western people who think tibet should be independant, maybe you should all pack up and go back to europe where your native ancestors are from. For Canadian's support tibetans, let quebec declare independance.

Your first statement is false and has already been covered. The second post was a clear support of Throckmorton's statement. I am going to have to agree with Throckmorton, the Chinese seem to readily believe China has a right to sovereignty over Tibet whereas people of the West do not. Maybe it is because we see how China screwed up its society for 3,000 years prior to the arrival of Marco Polo, and how only after the West felt shame for its own treatment of the Chinese did something change in how we view the pitiful culture. It is only through the modern version of the human (suicide) wave that China was able to prop itself out of the self-destruction. And now that the blowback effect of rapid success is rearing its ugly head (namely trying to paint lipstick on a pig of a regime) let us see how China continues its economic development. Will it succumb to market forces, raising wages for its peasants and out-pricing itself compared to regional wages, or will it be able to somehow defy the laws of economics?

Everyone can make silly assertions. I highly disagree with the statement that China screwed up over 3,000 years ago. Case in point: In case you didn't realize, China had been a world superpower for thousands of years prior to the 19th century. And you say they had a screwed up society? Maybe you should do a little reading on the long period of time people like to call the "Dark Ages" of Europe, when the western nations were quite literally sh!tting on themselves while China was in its Tang dynasty, receiving scholars worldwide and spreading its influence all over Asia.

Thankfully the Renaissance came around, which just so happened around the time China was coming down after centuries of prosperity. And yay for those Europeans, colonialism all the way! No shame there! My guess is that one of the reasons China is so fvcked today is the repeated abuse of China by European and Japanese powers beginning in the mid 19th century all the way until 60 years ago. After Sun Yat Sen successfully established the Republic, China had less than ~12 years to develop before the damn Japanese came storming over. And there was really a tremendous amount of progress made in those puny 12 years of stability. But everything got fvcked again when the country was drawn into war :roll:.

The Communist take over of China wasn't the due to the "backward-ness" of Chinese people. When your country is abused, carved up, and disrespected by every European nation + Japan for your generations, things get really weird. You don't realize what that does to the populace. I've often wondered how it is even possible for something like the Cultural Revolution to take place. Its shocking and puzzling, really. But then you have to put yourself in the time and place. Social upheavals occur in extreme circumstances. Perhaps if the Europeans had kept their itching hands off of China, the ROC may still be in power today-- and we would be seeing a far more peaceful, prosperous China. Just look at what the Chinese government accomplished in the minuscule island of Taiwan. Now imagine that development had been carried out with the resources and people of China.

My point is that the US is and has been the current superpower of the world. But its position at the top has only lasted something like 50-60 years so far-- and even now people are already starting to speculate as to when the US will be replaced at the top by another nation. The Chinese Empire had single dynasties that were stable and lasted longer than the entire lifespan of the US. I don't mean to discredit the US in any way, since I live here and probably wouldn't want to move anywhere else at the moment. But I think its extremely short sighted to put down Chinese culture and history. Every Eastern culture has been heavily influenced by Chinese culture-- from architecture, to writing systems, etc. China was much like the US is today, harboring scholars from all over the world, producing science, philosophy, and literature truly ahead of its time. We in the West don't know about them because we have our own philosophers and literature (You think Chinese people prioritize reading Shakespeare?) And given a century of turmoil, I think they're getting back on track rather quickly (compare china today to china 20 years ago). So please, give me a break about how 'pitiful' Chinese society was 3000 years ago and is today. Have you forgotten American slavery and segregation, which has plagued the US for half of its existence?

As to this thread, I really don't have much of an opinion on the Tibet issue. I strongly disagree with the use of force to quell peaceful protests. But leaving politics aside, I really don't see what is wrong with the Chinese response to this incident. Every news outlet is baseless in criticizing the Chinese government, when according to most first hand accounts, the government has shown a large amount of restraint, especially given the circumstances (numerous tapes and first hand accounts of violence by local Tibetans).