**thread name change* Nvidia and AMD moral and immoral business practices

[Creig]

To true, What is it with people feeling an attachment to a corp who could care less about you? Unless of course your in their hip pocket...

If Nvidia had made only an occasional faux pas like most companies, I wouldn't have a problem with them. But ever since the FX5800 days, it seems that they have no moral reservations whatsoever. 'If it makes money, DO IT!' seems to be their slogan these days.

I realize that companies are in business to make money. I really do get that. Honest! But since Nvidia has a competitor that makes an equivalent product at an equivalent price, I have the luxury of choice. Because of this, I can include "corporate behavior" as one of the criteria I look at when purchasing a new video card. And if I don't like Nvidia's behavior, I can grade them on it. And if all things between the AMD and Nvidia cards are equal, 'corporate tactics' could end up being the factor that causes me to choose the AMD card instead.

I wish Nvdia would wake up to the fact, because I don't appear to be the lone person who feels this way. And it's costing them sales.

 

[Creig]

Ok, what failed again? The solder, or the GPUs? Why does this matter? Because you're alluding that the GPU's themselves failed.

http://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/news/1004378/why-nvidia-chips-defective

 

[Keysplayr]

http://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/news/1004378/why-nvidia-chips-defective

An inquirer link? Not even clicking on it.

 

[notty22]

Wow, nice attitude there. I'm sure you wouldn't be so flippant about it if it was your laptop that died prematurely. Laptops aren't cheap MP3 players, they're supposed to last.

Nvidia may not have created bumpgate on purpose, but they sure didn't step up to the plate and admit their responsibility. First they denied that there was ever an issue. Then they blamed it on the fabbing companies. Then they blamed it on insufficient cooling designs. They even tried blaming it on the end consumers usage patterns!

It wasn't until it was PROVEN what was failing that Nvidia finally admitted it was their own GPUs that were at fault, as was originally suspected by everyone.

That's a wonderful company you're defending.

And why would they publicly announce there was a flaw in manufacturing until it was completely proven ?
Were you paying attention when Toyota cars seemed to be involved with unintended acceleration accidents involving deaths ?
Toyota resisted admitting major problems , until they could prove exactly what was going on. They have now made changes and fixed existing cars with recalls, and I'm pretty sure Toyota is still in business and has a good reputation ?
I remember seeing a poll ? Would you let your children ride in a Toyota ? Thats how bad witch hunts can become. Honda and GM probably sponsored that one.

 

[Keysplayr]

If Nvidia had made only an occasional faux pas like most companies, I wouldn't have a problem with them. But ever since the FX5800 days, it seems that they have no moral reservations whatsoever. 'If it makes money, DO IT!' seems to be their slogan these days.

I realize that companies are in business to make money. I really do get that. Honest! But since Nvidia has a competitor that makes an equivalent product at an equivalent price, I have the luxury of choice. Because of this, I can include "corporate behavior" as one of the criteria I look at when purchasing a new video card. And if I don't like Nvidia's behavior, I can grade them on it. And if all things between the AMD and Nvidia cards are equal, 'corporate tactics' could end up being the factor that causes me to choose the AMD card instead.

I wish Nvdia would wake up to the fact, because I don't appear to be the lone person who feels this way. And it's costing them sales.

This line of thinking really does not make sense, Creig.

What do you think of the company that makes the best pre-cancer scanning equipment in the world? I dunno, but I bet they are publicly traded, and I can bet that company got started with the intention of making a truckload of money. Not so much caring about the actual cancer patients. How much do you want to bet that their software is proprietary and they do not share it for the greater good across all companies who make pre-cancer screening machines? Would you take bets that they don't offer this software for a licensing fee?

I don't know at what point in your life that you decided that HUGE corporations priorities, companies worth billions of dollars, does care or should care about anything except making a ton of money for themselves, and their stockholders which is actually a responsibility of theirs.

You see all these commercials from these companies providing new technology for medical care and the commercial "says", we care, so we innovate." News. They DONT care. They want you to buy their product or invest in it. The title of the commercial might as well be called, "Buy our stock". It sure as heck won't say, "Buy our stock because we're the company that cares." Sure, they care, about their bottom lines.

Please Creig, don't fool yourself any longer about this. It's utterly ridiculous to believe what you're saying. Your ideals about this issue are for an ideal world where everyone loves everyone, and the only reason a company does something, is for you and you alone. An individual and all individuals just like you. Just please stop.

 

[Mem]

This line of thinking really does not make sense, Creig.

What do you think of the company that makes the best pre-cancer scanning equipment in the world? I dunno, but I bet they are publicly traded, and I can bet that company got started with the intention of making a truckload of money. Not so much caring about the actual cancer patients. How much do you want to bet that their software is proprietary and they do not share it for the greater good across all companies who make pre-cancer screening machines? Would you take bets that they don't offer this software for a licensing fee?

I don't know at what point in your life that you decided that HUGE corporations priorities, companies worth billions of dollars, does care or should care about anything except making a ton of money for themselves, and their stockholders which is actually a responsibility of theirs.

You see all these commercials from these companies providing new technology for medical care and the commercial "says", we care, so we innovate." News. They DONT care. They want you to buy their product or invest in it. The title of the commercial might as well be called, "Buy our stock". It sure as heck won't say, "Buy our stock because we're the company that cares." Sure, they care, about their bottom lines.

Please Creig, don't fool yourself any longer about this. It's utterly ridiculous to believe what you're saying. Your ideals about this issue are for an ideal world where everyone loves everyone, and the only reason a company does something, is for you and you alone. An individual and all individuals just like you. Just please stop.

I can't speak for Craig but I feel Nvidia have become less professional nowadays,back in the TNT days I had a lot more respect for them,nowadays they are more of the devil you hate with their attitude,sure all companies are there to make money but some companies just do it better and act more professional in the public's eye,company image can be an important issue,however some companies and people forget that.

 

[badb0y]

Ok, what failed again? The solder, or the GPUs? Why does this matter? Because you're alluding that the GPU's themselves failed.

Oooo ok so the GPU never failed it was the solder. So who was responsible for those?

 

[Creig]

Please Creig, don't fool yourself any longer about this. It's utterly ridiculous to believe what you're saying. Your ideals about this issue are for an ideal world where everyone loves everyone, and the only reason a company does something, is for you and you alone. An individual and all individuals just like you. Just please stop.

If every person in the market for a video card decided to boycott Nvidia products because they don't like the way the company behaves, do you think Nvidia would just ignore them and try to continue with business as usual? Or would they change to meet the needs of their customers?

Obviously, they would change. By voting with my wallet, I'm telling Nvidia that if they want my money, they should consider changing their business methods. And when other people here do the same (and there obviously are others), the voting gets more pronounced.

You can sit there and pretend that corporate tactics don't matter, but the very fact this thread exists is proof otherwise. You are employed by Nvidia, so nobody here expects you to publicly have a viewpoint that would show Nvidia in a bad light. But Nvidia would do well to note that there seem to be more than a few people who don't like the way they do business. And if they ever want OUR business, they need to change their methods.


This has been proven false time and time again.

It is simply malice at this point and it is unacceptable.

Re: "You are employed by Nvidia"

Moderator Idontcare

 

[Creig]

An inquirer link? Not even clicking on it.

Your loss. I don't usually read the Inq either due to the usually extreme one-sided reporting. But this is an interesting bit of technical journalism that is surprisingly low in anti-Nvidia rhetoric (low for Charlie, that is).

 

[Keysplayr]

I can't speak for Craig but I feel Nvidia have become less professional nowadays,back in the TNT days I had a lot more respect for them,nowadays they are more of the devil you hate with their attitude,sure all companies are there to make money but some companies just do it better and act more professional in the public's eye,company image can be an important issue,however some companies and people forget that.

In what way? What is your definition of "professional"? The devil you hate attitude is a conscious choice made by you. I can't see how you can hate their products, (you actually have two GTX480s) software, innovations,developer relations, their drive to push things forward. Is it that they are not "personable" enough? In what way do you feel Nvidia is any less professional than competing companies? Because I'm not following until you define the professionalism you are talking about.

 

[Keysplayr]

Your loss. I don't usually read the Inq either due to the usually extreme one-sided reporting. But this is an interesting bit of technical journalism that is surprisingly low in anti-Nvidia rhetoric (low for Charlie, that is).

My absence of loss actually. I get to keep my IQ points by not clicking it. Those are minutes I won't get back.

 

[Mem]

In what way? What is your definition of "professional"? The devil you hate attitude is a conscious choice made by you. I can't see how you can hate their products, (you actually have two GTX480s) software, innovations,developer relations, their drive to push things forward. Is it that they are not "personable" enough? In what way do you feel Nvidia is any less professional than competing companies? Because I'm not following until you define the professionalism you are talking about.

Example here ,

A representative for Nvidia Corp. said in an interview with an online publication that nobody in the world, except the United Kingdom, “cares” about ATI Radeon graphics processing units that compete against Nvidia’s GeForce. The scandalous claim was “supported” by demonstration of market share graphs that did not include ATI, graphics product group of Advanced Micro Devices, at all.

http://www.xbitlabs.com/news/video/display/20080512103345_Nvidia_Nobody_in_the_World_Talks_About_ATI_and_AMD_Except_in_the_UK.html

This is not the first example of Nvidia’s controversial behavior in the recent weeks. Back in April the chief executive of the company – Jen-Hsun Huang – promised to open a can of whoop-ass on Intel Corp., the world’s largest maker of central processing units, whereas chief scientist of the company – David Kirk – said that AMD’s ATI did not have competitive products at all.

I have probably seen/read a lot more stuff/PR crap like this from Nvidia then any other company I can think of,it does not bode well company image wise to intelligent gamers like myself.

Do Nvidia think we are niave?

Btw did I say I hate their products?..No ,they make both good and bad products IMHO but thats not what I'm talking about which is company image.

Intel,AMD,Matrox to name a few have a better more professional attitude then Nvidia have nowadays IMHO.

 

[busydude]

I think AMD is good at flashing the victim card when it sees itself in a hopeless situation, and I think this strategy played out pretty good among the tech crowd. An underdog playing the victim is bound to attract some sympathy.

AMD managed to successfully portray Nvidia as a bully trying to restrict its growth.
AMD should stop complaining and start innovating in technologies of the future. There is no one but AMD to blame if it cannot compete with Nvidia's CUDA and PhysX technologies.

 

[Keysplayr]

Oooo ok so the GPU never failed it was the solder. So who was responsible for those?

That would take time to find out, and perhaps why the litigation took so long to come to a conclusion. Was it the solder manufacturer? Was it the entitiy responsible for ordering the solder and selecting the solder manufacturer?
Was it the entity responsible for actually soldering the GPU onto the laptop PCB's? I honestly could not tell you. Was it Nvidia who ordered the materials for the solder? The manufacturer of the solder? Was it Nvidia who decided for Dell, HP, and others which grade of solder to use and from what manufacturer? I haven't any idea badb0y, but you can see there was a lot of area to cover at any rate.

 

[formulav8]

It's to try to find out which company is "less" immoral. To which the Angel halo gets awarded.

Yuk Yuk Yuk


I don't know of any corp who would win the '"good little doggy" award.

 

[Grooveriding]

There is no one but AMD to blame if it cannot compete with Nvidia's CUDA and PhysX technologies.

CUDA is one thing, but from the standpoint of using a card for gaming, there is really is nothing much to compete with as far as physx and cuda.

A library of 10 games that support those features is not really something AMD needs to concern themselves about not having support for. It certainly didn't hinder excellent sales of the 5 series and won't hinder sales of the 6 series.

 

[Creig]

And why would they publicly announce there was a flaw in manufacturing until it was completely proven ?

I would be highly surprised to find that the Nvidia engineers who actually designed the GPU wouldn't be the first ones to discover what was going wrong with them.

If you look at that Nvidia quote I posted earlier, you'll see that Nvidia was blaming EVERYBODY but themselves for the issue. It wasn't only that Nvidia didn't own up to the issue. Instead, they tried to pawn off the blame to others. It would have been better if they had just said, "We are seeing GPU failures and are investigating the causes". Instead, they tried to protect their stock prices by deflecting the failures entirely to other companies and even to the end users. More poor corporate behavior.

 

[busydude]

That is not the point I am trying to make. It does not matter how many games that have used PhysX, its the way AMD bitches about how Nvidia doesn't make its technology open or accessible.

Why should Nvidia do that? AMD is not willing to pay royalties to use Nvdia's technology, it does not create its own standard(or market it) and to add to that it acts as if it was an innocent victim.

I am willing to sell Ice-cream recipe that I created for a profit, I will not distribute that for free just to make my envious neighbors happy.

 

[Kenmitch]

This is the one you're looking for, I think:


It is pretty explicit.
And this is 2 years old, AMD never did anything with it, apparently.

Thanks. I'll look at your link tonight.

 

[Scali]

I'm sure you wouldn't be so flippant about it if it was your laptop that died prematurely.

As I said, I lost an 8800GTS320 and 9800GTX to bumpgate. Not exactly cheap cards either. Put the two together, and you can buy an okay laptop I suppose.
I just try not to dwell on it.
I just put it on the huge pile of other hardware that died prematurely.

Nvidia may not have created bumpgate on purpose, but they sure didn't step up to the plate and admit their responsibility. First they denied that there was ever an issue. Then they blamed it on the fabbing companies. Then they blamed it on insufficient cooling designs. They even tried blaming it on the end consumers usage patterns!

Is that so?
From what I could dig up with Google, they already put money aside for this back in 2008.

That's a wonderful company you're defending.

Who says I'm defending them? I'm just trying to talk some sense into the people who can't seem to get over hardware that dies.
You may just want to give up computers altogether, because trust me, a whole lot more hardware is going to die on you in the next years.

 

[Absolution75]

ATI gets a pass for not putting out good OpenGL, Linux, OpenCL drivers for thier OWN customers. But Nvidia gets dinged because they won't support Physx if ATI is the primary graphics cards?

You know it cost money to test and support physx right? It's expected that they would do this in a single or dual Nvidia card system, but what if in an ATI/Nvidia system ATI drivers somehow stop physx from working or work wrong? So Nvidia has to spend resources to figure this out too?

The limitation is artificial - nothing more. The only bug in recent drivers was the fact that they accidently left the artificial limitation disabled.

Also, yes I would expect nvidia to support the configuration. You bought the card, that revenue could/should/would go into testing certain configurations. They aren't two GPU's running GPU code in tandem - it’s more or less an entireally different peripheral. EVGA doesn't disable their killer nic card if you have a non EVGA graphics card. NVIDIA didn't disable ATI cards on their motherboards when they were in the chipset business. It’s the same concept.

The GPU isn't being used as a graphics card - its more general purpose than that now. It’s getting close to being as open as the CPU. Both are better at different things though.

Why would you ding Nvidia for not supporting mixed ATI/Nvidia customer (esp since the Nvidia card is the cheaper one) while giving ATI a pass for NOT putting any effort into physics?

I never said I gave AMD/ATI a pass on the lack of a physics api. I find it rather odd, I'm not sure what they are waiting for. But they are certainly not coercing developers to code a certain way.

So for Nvidia to have "good" business practices they not only have to provide support to everyone who has an nvidia card even if the fault is caused by their competitor.

ATI has "good" business practices by not providing the feature at all.

That's not the point. They [were] are using their market position and influence in an anti-competative fasion. If they were smart, they'd allow it as that would allow the entire market to use their GPU's as physics cards and then would allow developers to write more code for PhysX.

I just think Microsoft should just finalize a standard physics API and this will all be moot.

 

[Scali]

I would be highly surprised to find that the Nvidia engineers who actually designed the GPU wouldn't be the first ones to discover what was going wrong with them.

It's not that simple. They didn't exactly start failing after a few hours of use.
It took years before a pattern of failing GPUs began to emerge.
Some of the affected GPUs still work today. It depends on a lot of factors.

 

[Scali]

NVIDIA didn't disable ATI cards on their motherboards when they were in the chipset business. It’s the same concept.

Interesting tidbit of a factoid though:
nVidia's chipsets used to automatically overclock the PCI-e bus when an nVidia card was used.

I just think Microsoft should just finalize a standard physics API and this will all be moot.

I don't think that's ever going to happen. Microsoft doesn't deliver middleware.
I don't think it's a good idea either. I think some developers should just stand up and build upon DirectCompute. That's how it should be. Perhaps the next generation of CryEngine?

 

[Absolution75]

Interesting tidbit of a factoid though:
nVidia's chipsets used to automatically overclock the PCI-e bus when an nVidia card was used.

Yeah, though it really didn't do anything as far as performance - except maybe in high PCI-E bandwidth limited situations (3x SLI? idk) even though I remember seing slides about how it was boss-hawg. Even then, not like you couldn't just up it manually on any motherboard.

I don't think that's ever going to happen. Microsoft doesn't deliver middleware.
I don't think it's a good idea either. I think some developers should just stand up and build upon DirectCompute. That's how it should be. Perhaps the next generation of CryEngine?

That works too, people should develop standards that are open. I don't really care who develops it as long as its not AMD or NVIDIA (unless its both).


As far as the laptop GPU problems. I wasn't too happy with NVIDIA there either. They could have really taken the high road and issued a recall - considering its a inherent design defect. Sony recalled laptop batteries, but probably more so because they didn't want someone to get hurt by them and sue. Regardless, I tend to think they handled the situation rather poorly. These GPU's were the equivalent of lemon cars IMO - they tend to fail just out of warrenty (and there are lemon laws in this country).

 

[Janooo]

Nope, TLB is worse.
With the bump problem, at least the product works as advertised for as long as it lasts (which in my case was more than 2 years, which I find acceptable in any case. I've had worse).
With TLB, you never get your money's worth, the chip never performs as advertised. And there is NO way to get your money back or to get a replacement.
With nVidia a lot of laptops were exchanged/fixed, so at least you'd get another laptop that works as advertised, for as long as it lasts (might get another 2 years out of it, 4 years total wouldn't be bad really, on average).

I mean, come on, are we a bunch of newbies here? Surely most of us have been using hardware long enough to know that it can be extremely flaky at times. If you want reliable technology, buy a car.
What about LCD technology for example? Where often it arrives with dead pixels out-of-the-box? Or harddisks that simply don't work the first time you hook them up? Been there, done that. Guess most of us have. It happens.
If you think this is all an evil scheme by LCD/harddisk manufacturers to annoy their customers, you're pretty far gone.... Same with the nVidia issue, or the TLB for that matter.

You have a very strange logic.
CPU can work with TLB bug BIOS fix.
Bad bump breaks your laptop. It does not work at all.
I don't understand how you can say TLB is worse.
NV did not fix all the laptops. There are thousands people with broken laptops that were not fixed.