**thread name change* Nvidia and AMD moral and immoral business practices

Page 19 - Seeking answers? Join the AnandTech community: where nearly half-a-million members share solutions and discuss the latest tech.

WelshBloke

Lifer
Jan 12, 2005
33,078
11,256
136
Not in this forum ZimZum. You have people carefully calculating cost of ownership, wattage usage cost down to the killowatt hour. Are you going to tell me that is how "emotion" affects buying decisions? Creig even declared at one point that a light bulb could heat up a large room in short order, comparing the extra wattage a GTX480 consumes over a compared AMD card.
Does that sound emotional to you? No. The standard only applies in THIS case. Why do people think we don't see these things? LOL.

Dont be so quick to downplay emotion when buying hardware, you yourself have said that you have a preference to Nvidia. You'd be hard pressed to say that Nvidia had the better hardware for your entire purchasing history.
 

Keysplayr

Elite Member
Jan 16, 2003
21,219
54
91
Dont be so quick to downplay emotion when buying hardware, you yourself have said that you have a preference to Nvidia. You'd be hard pressed to say that Nvidia had the better hardware for your entire purchasing history.

What you're missing, I think, is what gave me that preference in the first place. My experience with the hardware and the software/drivers.
I didn't first buy an Nvidia product (Riva TNT) because it made me feel all warm and fuzzy inside. I bought it for kick-ass gaming power. And it delivered.

You're right I would be hard pressed, which is why I've owned 9500pros, 9700's, X800XT, 2900XT, 5870. The only one I kept for a long time, was the X800. Good card series and drivers were less problematic. What I can easily say is, Nvidia has always had better drivers and game support throughout. Very solid. Especially throught the 9700 times. The 5870 I had pretty much ran without any probs using 10.3 and 10.3a betas. That's as far as I got. Maybe I'll own a 6 series. So, nobody can say I haven't tried the other company's products. I have. I think I still have an old Radeon 9000 in my server. I forget the exact model.
 

WelshBloke

Lifer
Jan 12, 2005
33,078
11,256
136
What you're missing, I think, is what gave me that preference in the first place. My experience with the hardware and the software/drivers.
I didn't first buy an Nvidia product (Riva TNT) because it made me feel all warm and fuzzy inside. I bought it for kick-ass gaming power. And it delivered.

You're right I would be hard pressed, which is why I've owned 9500pros, 9700's, X800XT, 2900XT, 5870. The only one I kept for a long time, was the X800. Good card series and drivers were less problematic. What I can easily say is, Nvidia has always had better drivers and game support throughout. Very solid. Especially throught the 9700 times. The 5870 I had pretty much ran without any probs using 10.3 and 10.3a betas. That's as far as I got. Maybe I'll own a 6 series. So, nobody can say I haven't tried the other company's products. I have. I think I still have an old Radeon 9000 in my server. I forget the exact model.

So your cool with the idea that ATI/AMD have had the better hardware at times?

Your just saying that your objective view is that Nvidia have had the better drivers for their entire history? And thats why you prefer them, no emotional attachment at all?
 

ZimZum

Golden Member
Aug 2, 2001
1,281
0
76
Not in this forum ZimZum. You have people carefully calculating cost of ownership, wattage usage cost down to the killowatt hour. Are you going to tell me that is how "emotion" affects buying decisions? Creig even declared at one point that a light bulb could heat up a large room in short order, comparing the extra wattage a GTX480 consumes over a compared AMD card.
Does that sound emotional to you? No. The standard only applies in THIS case. Why do people think we don't see these things? LOL.

Basically every thread in this forum devolves into an ATI vs Nvidia flame war and you're going to tell me that emotion plays no part in this arena?! ummm, OK. The examples you list are simply people justifying their emotional preference for one brand or another. Same way people argue vehemently over minutiae in PS3 vs xbox360 debates. When both are perfectly capable devices that perform their functions adequately.
 

railven

Diamond Member
Mar 25, 2010
6,604
561
126
Did you come across this in your reading?

"He also noted that he made progress getting his hands on a Radeon 4800 card and noted that his CUDA Radeon library is "almost done."

"He" being Eran Badit and this is from the Toms Hardware article linked in taserbro's extensive post above.

http://www.tomshardware.com/news/nvidia-ati-physx,5841.html

1st sentence in 3rd paragraph.

So this went on even after 4xxx was made available at least to devs and review sites.

So you completely ignored where the project was started on Radeon 3K series and the author of the code wanted it to get it working on Radeon 4K series, thus asking ATI for engineer samples for a product not yet released.

After the product was released the author seemed to then complain he couldn't get it locally due to supply constraints and was then asking ATI again for samples and after they said no they asked Journalist for their review samples.

Not crapping on the author since they made a good PhysX crack driver. But, it started to seem like he just wanted free 4K hardware. Why not finish the 3K version (since he said he had that hardware) demo it to ATI as a working product and that could entice ATI more so to support this.
 

ZimZum

Golden Member
Aug 2, 2001
1,281
0
76
What you're missing, I think, is what gave me that preference in the first place. My experience with the hardware and the software/drivers.
I didn't first buy an Nvidia product (Riva TNT) because it made me feel all warm and fuzzy inside. I bought it for kick-ass gaming power. And it delivered.

Whether you admit it or not thats an emotional attachment. My first boombox was a Panasonic. It has lasted over 20 years and if I pulled it out of my attic and plugged it in it probably stills work. Because of that positive experience I have always leaned toward Panasonic consumer electronics. Sure its based on a personal experience but its an emotional attachment none the less.
 

Keysplayr

Elite Member
Jan 16, 2003
21,219
54
91
Basically every thread in this forum devolves into an ATI vs Nvidia flame war and you're going to tell me that emotion plays no part in this arena?! ummm, OK. The examples you list are simply people justifying their emotional preference for one brand or another. Same way people argue vehemently over minutiae in PS3 vs xbox360 debates. When both are perfectly capable devices that perform their functions adequately.

Ok, then I can say I respect that opinion. Although I might not agree.
 

Keysplayr

Elite Member
Jan 16, 2003
21,219
54
91
Whether you admit it or not thats an emotional attachment. My first boombox was a Panasonic. It has lasted over 20 years and if I pulled it out of my attic and plugged it in it probably stills work. Because of that positive experience I have always leaned toward Panasonic consumer electronics. Sure its based on a personal experience but its an emotional attachment none the less.

Ok, and when you dust off that 20 year old panasonic, did the corporate actions of the Panasonic corporation play a part in your emotional attachment to the device? Or is it that you just plugged it in, and it worked, and plays good music? This is the point I was getting at.
 

Aristotelian

Golden Member
Jan 30, 2010
1,246
11
76
Whether you admit it or not thats an emotional attachment. My first boombox was a Panasonic. It has lasted over 20 years and if I pulled it out of my attic and plugged it in it probably stills work. Because of that positive experience I have always leaned toward Panasonic consumer electronics. Sure its based on a personal experience but its an emotional attachment none the less.

Inductive reasoning is emotive, now?

The personal lean can be described as "I have used a product from this company and it worked well (say, my first Sony Walkman)." Therefore I infer that a new product from Sony will work too. It's the same with video cards for some people. I actually think that, because Keys has used cards from both companies, it is highly likely his position on purchasing the cards is not emotional.

The emotive element enters into the framework through this damn dialectic that goes on. "I am right. I am RIGHT! I have to be right! I'm getting nervous because someone is disagreeing with me! I must smash him with my superior intellect/experience!" That's the emotive element. Inductive reasoning (brand preference) is not necessarily emotive.

Nor, as some people have argued, is ethical reasoning 'emotive'. Ethical standpoints ought to be arrived at after logical debate and consideration, not emotion. Anything else isn't ethics, it's just ranting.
 

bryanW1995

Lifer
May 22, 2007
11,144
32
91
There is a difference between "block" and "no longer support." Anyone can use older drivers to make PhysX work under Nv+ATI config..

Lets be fair for a second, if you ain't buying newer product from Nvidia, than why shall you benefit from newer codes from Nvidia via its drivers?

In high-level speech, Nvidia video cards are designed can handle both physX, cuda, and generate graphic contents. Yes, it can also serves as a off-load unit when the primary display card is also from Nvidia. Otherwise, Nvidia must extend their testing consisting all video cards from other companies. That is an expense Nvidia is not willing to pay.

Again, newer video cards all follow the WDDM standard, so in theory, Nvidia driver can work on ATI cards and vice versa, but they don't. If someone ask "Why doesn't ATI driver works for my Nvidia card?" and the answer will probably be "are you flicking dumb?" Which is perfectly logical right? You may say "But it works without any problem whatoever!" Well that is simply coincident. Gratz if you have tried and succeeded. Again, the real dirty part about Nvidia is that they will actually allow a driver get out of their doors that does not prevent a Nvidia card to act as a PPU. I mean seriously? It looks like a deliberate act than an accident to me so people will be able to taste what PhysX is while using their ATI card as the primary display card.

Note that neither Nvidia or AMD support cross vendor setup. You can complain to AMD when your Nvidia card stops working after you put in your new AMD card. To be a bit technical, each video card has an ID which allows drivers to detect its presents. If Nvidia can disable its card as soon as it detects the existence of an ATI card, AMD card also disguise itself to fool Nvidia's detecting algorithms.

Of course, little red riding hoods won't tell you that. Instead, they will actually give you a little hacking script/method to enable it. That way, neither Nvidia or AMD are responsible. And the best part is, if it fails, user will believe that it is because they tries to hack it. Those are the cool tricks these companies' use.


if they "no longer support"ed it then you wouldn't need a driver hack to make it work. they actively blocked it.
 

bryanW1995

Lifer
May 22, 2007
11,144
32
91
So your cool with the idea that ATI/AMD have had the better hardware at times?

Your just saying that your objective view is that Nvidia have had the better drivers for their entire history? And thats why you prefer them, no emotional attachment at all?

dude, he and apoppin staged a ginormous comparo btwn 2900xt and 8800gts 640 back when r600 released. that was WAY before he was a FG member. if you want other evidence, ask bfg 10k why HE prefers nvidia. nvidia has generally done a better job with drivers in the past, and now they definitely offer better software support generally. AMD has better hardware overall right now and they're about to make a big jump it appears, but keep in mind taht these things go in cycles and the vast majority of us go with the best price/performance deal every single time.
 

WelshBloke

Lifer
Jan 12, 2005
33,078
11,256
136
dude, he and apoppin staged a ginormous comparo btwn 2900xt and 8800gts 640 back when r600 released. that was WAY before he was a FG member. if you want other evidence, ask bfg 10k why HE prefers nvidia. nvidia has generally done a better job with drivers in the past, and now they definitely offer better software support generally. AMD has better hardware overall right now and they're about to make a big jump it appears, but keep in mind taht these things go in cycles and the vast majority of us go with the best price/performance deal every single time.


Thats kind of my point.

The idea that one vendor has been totally superior for ever is bogus.

Its fine if you are emotionally attached to a vendor but there's no point in denying it.
 

railven

Diamond Member
Mar 25, 2010
6,604
561
126
Thats kind of my point.

The idea that one vendor has been totally superior for ever is bogus.

Its fine if you are emotionally attached to a vendor but there's no point in denying it.

I'd have to agree with him there. I'm an open ATI fanboy and even I had 8800 GTS SLI'ed during that generation.
 

Kenmitch

Diamond Member
Oct 10, 1999
8,505
2,250
136
This is the one you're looking for, I think:


It is pretty explicit.
And this is 2 years old, AMD never did anything with it, apparently.

‘open to talking with any GPU vendor about support for their architecture.’

Great detail guys....Your whole fight over AMD/ATI doing nothing with physX is based on that one little statement.

Without any details of any true offer between AMD and Nvidia I see no need to even bring up AMD not jumping on the bandwagon with physX. It's easy to sit back and blame AMD but without knowing what the terms, conditions, and rules that would apply if AMD did adopt physX are it's pretty much impossible to know if they did or didn't do the right thing at the time.

I'd be glad to look at a link with the details of such said offer as I'm sure others would like to see it also. If you can find such a thing if it even does exist please post a link to it :)

To me currently AMD is the lesser of the two evil's....But Intel is most likely the greatest of all evil's! But nobody can argue with Intels performance :)
 
Last edited:

Idontcare

Elite Member
Oct 10, 1999
21,110
64
91
Charlie is known to be on many forums, always uses another alias and mostly doesn't reveal who he really is, he is almost certainly present here. However to even use Charlie in any nvidia vs ati thread is viral marketing by AMD in action and working.

Beyond3D and a few others, Charlie does reveal who he is. And if he doesn't reveal who he really is in some cases, how do you know it is him? And what member here is actually Charlie in disguise? What is their user name?

I know I'm probably swimming against the current of popular opinion here but personally I would welcome Charlie to post as himself as a member here in the VC&G forums.

To be sure the slant he infuses in his articles tends to be distinct and unique. But I don't see anything wrong with that in the grand scheme of things.

It serves a function for society, provides another viewpoint against a backdrop of tiresome "me too" and "same story here" articles that come from the likes of your ZDNET and PCWORLD authors. Diversity, nothing wrong with that.

Speaking from the standpoint of a member of this community I think Charlie joining our ranks would only serve to enrich our discussions and add diversity to the community. If you've seen his posts in the S/A forum or RWT forum then you know exactly what I am talking about.

Speaking from the standpoint of a mod I know that my job would likely become all the more time-intensive as people would have a hard time getting out of the mode of making personal attacks on him. Right now it is pretty much a blank check to impugn his character at will since he is not a member, that would have to change of course if he were to become a member.

That said, if he is already amongst our ranks then I think it speaks more poorly of us than of him that he finds it necessary to hide himself behind an anonymous poster handle because of the anti-Charlie sentiment that infuses this sub-forum.

We should not find it to be a point of pride that our collective behavior and community attitude compels people to hide themselves from us.

AMD also hit low with their various anti nvidia adverts (e.g. that nvidia dinosaur youtube one). Clear viral marketing. Anyone who posted a link to that on here is doing viral marketing for AMD on this forum.

Just a philosophical question here, with your working definition of viral marketing including anyone who provides links, would you view a person who provided a link to an AT forum thread as a viral marketer for AT forums since page impressions in the forums do serve a financial interest in terms of ad revenue?

That's not a facetious question, I have my opinion on the topic but I like hearing other's opinions because I admit my opinion is mostly shaped by real-life perceptions (not a good justification) and not by any degree of formal education on the matter.

Who of you knew about the bad bumps before Charlie wrote the article?

It was a really good set of articles, investigative technical journalism at its finest. I know Keysplayr already said he'd rather not lose the time reading them, and I'll admit I've lost a good deal of time reading some pretty crap TheINQ articles, but those "bumpgate" articles were actually some of the few articles on TheINQ that I found intriguing and informative to read.

Bumpgate was one of those process-technology areas that directly overlapped with my education and work experience (another one being the double-via stuff) and I really appreciated seeing the subject deftly handled and succinctly communicated in the span of a few short online article pages.

I really have wondered just how much of the final outcome that came of bumpgate (including the class action stuff) was influenced by those bumpgate articles. Not saying the article content itself was leveragable as evidence but more of being a tipping point that motivated others to have confidence to pursue their own fact-finding missions which then snow-balled into Nvidia finally acknowledging the issue and the scale of it.
 

blastingcap

Diamond Member
Sep 16, 2010
6,654
5
76
Consider this: is NV's image something it can't affect? Do its detractors have a point? If NV had immediately recalled and refunded/replaced things w/r/t bumpgate; if its CEO were more respectful and didn't say stuff like how NV would open a "can of whoop ass" on Intel; if NV didn't apparently try to price-fix with AMD (which, to be fair, apparently agreed or at least didn't refuse outright); if that kind of stuff didn't happen, do you think NV's reputation would have been better or worse? You can point to AMD and say that it did bad stuff too, but that's fairly lame and inaccurate to boot: if you're going to compare ethics on a GPU forum then it's fairer to compare NV's ethics to ATI's ethics + AMD's post-merger ethics, else you are double-counting. (E.g., if NV merged with INTC, how fair would it be to bring up INTC's payola scheme as a criticism of NV's ethics, given that INTC's payola scheme would predate the merger?)

Also, a word about "emotion":

Although it's true that there are objective factors such as noise, thermals, performance, etc. that may be useful in educating consumers, ultimately it is THEIR decision how to use THEIR money, not YOURS. To say that they shouldn't use their emotions, or to "vote with their wallets" if they disagree with a particular company's policies, is arrogant and controlling, imho.

This transcends AMD vs. NV, by the way. It happens all the time all over the world.

Some people try hard to "buy American" or to avoid buying from BP*. There are mutual funds out there that specifically cater to clients who wish to avoid ownership of companies that profit from tobacco or petroleum or firearms sales, for instance. Some people avoid Nike or buy Free Trade coffee because they don't like the sweatshop reports or want to help the environment. Etc.

Personal example: I don't like Seagate. The only HDD I ever had fail was a Seagate 7200.11 a couple of years ago, after which I started reading up on their quality control and reliability more. I discovered that Seagate had incorporated in the Carribean in order to dodge income taxes, unlike Western Digital. I was already upset at Seagate's handling of 7200.11 issues, and the tax thing was the last straw. The next three hard drives I bought were from Western Digital, even though they cost slightly more than the competing Seagates. Why? In my eyes, WD was at least as reliable as Seagate, and it paid US income taxes.

Do you think these people are insane, or do you see my point?

The above applies to things like video cards as well. AMD and NV are rivals whose products both get the job done. Given that both companies produce very similar products, why is it wrong to use your opinion of their respective "morality" if you are deciding between comparable cards and don't need CUDA/PhysX/single-GPU multi-monitor? Is it also wrong then to choose the ASUS version of the GTX460 because you prefer its color scheme to that of the GIGABYTE, or something like that?

While you may ardently believe that people should buy brand X or Y, or take this or that factor into consideration, at the end of the day, it's their money, not yours, and they can justify their purchases however they wish, and I don't think it's proper to bludgeon people into using only the criteria YOU deem to be important.**

As for others of you whose problem isn't with people who consider things beyond the usual performance metrics when buying cards, but rather with what you perceive as an unjustified poor public perception of NV, consider this: reasonable minds can disagree, and some things are simply not quantifiable anyway.

Example: someone mentioned how NV has seemed less professional over the years. With JHH setting up sites like http://www.intelsinsides.com/ and saying stuff like how NV's going to "open a can of whoop ass" on his competitors (his words, not mine***), is it so hard to see why NV has seemed less professional recently? Nevertheless, it's subjective opinion, not objective fact.

In other words, if someone deems NV or AMD unethical and even after hearing your arguments otherwise still thinks the same, so be it. Vote with your dollars, and let others vote with theirs. At some point you've just gotta let go.

* despite Scali's attempt to cast BP as if it were wholly a victim of RIG's incompetence, BP had say in the design and operation of its rig, not to mention principal-agent issues and how BP leaned on staff to get things done faster; if you take Scali's logic to the extreme, then a principal who hires an agent who then proceeds to commit crimes, can they absolve themselves of blame by casting all the blame on the agent). Disclaimer: I don't own stock in BP or RIG anymore, though I used to, many years ago.

** taken to the extreme, the arguments that some of you make would make it okay to support a company who polluted every river in the world with radioactive waste, blatantly violated anti-trust, child labor, and other laws, trafficked in sex slaves, used live babies as raw materials for its Soylent Green product, etc., and hired lawyers and bribed judges to get away with it (or to pay minor fines), just because that company's products performed better on your favored set of criteria. The sad thing is that I bet some of you WOULD support such a company and chalk it up to capitalism. The good news is that NV is not such a baby-eater kind of company.

*** http://www.engadget.com/2008/04/10/ce-oh-no-he-didnt-part-lv-nvidia-ceo-says-were-going-to-ope/
 
Last edited:

AnandThenMan

Diamond Member
Nov 11, 2004
3,991
627
126
AMD managed to successfully portray Nvidia as a bully trying to restrict its growth.
AMD should stop complaining and start innovating in technologies of the future. There is no one but AMD to blame if it cannot compete with Nvidia's CUDA and PhysX technologies.
AMD recently surpassed Nvidia in marketshare, and did it without CUDA of PhysX.
As I said, I lost an 8800GTS320 and 9800GTX to bumpgate.
Nvidia claims the desktop cards were not affected by the bump issue.
Yes, but I buy my CPUs for their performance.
You don't buy your GPUs for the performance?
And also thousands of people whose laptops WERE fixed (or replaced).
The laptops were NEVER fixed. All you got back was a new version of the same defective part. This is not a fix, never will be a fix. I've seen units fail 3 times, after that the customer just gave up.
 

busydude

Diamond Member
Feb 5, 2010
8,793
5
76
AMD recently surpassed Nvidia in marketshare, and did it without CUDA of PhysX.

You are not looking at the whole picture. AMD gained market share in consumer discrete graphic cards. Nvidia is still the leader in workstation cards and HPC.

The total revenue of AMD(CPU(2/3)+GPU(1/3)) is comparable to the revenue of Nvidia(GPU+Tegra).
 

AnandThenMan

Diamond Member
Nov 11, 2004
3,991
627
126
You are not looking at the whole picture. AMD gained market share in consumer discrete graphic cards. Nvidia is still the leader in workstation cards and HPC
The "big picture" is a harsh reality for Nvidia. They lost chipset revenue, will soon be shut out of the lower mainstream graphics due to Fusion and Intel's offerings, and are being squeezed in their bread and butter market, consumer discreet graphics. And Nvidia is pinning a lot of hope on the professional market.

IMO if Nvidia continues with their current business model, they are finished. They simply cannot afford to keep fielding a giant chip that tries to be all things to all markets, it's slowly killing them.
 

Scali

Banned
Dec 3, 2004
2,495
0
0
The TLB didn't effect 99.9% of people.

Actually it did... Then again, I suppose most people don't really care about one crash more or less.

Bumpgate effects everyone who bought the GPU. Whether it kicks in early or late is luck and there's no option to enable/disable a TLB fix to get around it.

I'm not sure if it affects *everyone*. I still have a 9800GTX+ that's still going strong...
As long as they hold out until the user upgrades to something new, they won't be affected.
Since a lot of them last more than 2 years, and many people have a shorter upgrade cycle, I think quite a few people have dodged the bullet.

My buddy lost his 8800 Ultra to it. We already went over this a while ago and I still feel it's a failure of engineering to predict the material properties. The solder in question was a well known material, the reaction to heat stress should have been predictable.

Total rubbish.
I happen to work in the industry, and we know all about ROHS problems with solder. A few years ago, lead was banned from solder. Many companies, including ourselves, struggled with the replacement options for lead-based solder. It wasn't 'wellknown' at all back in those days. It was brand new, and unpredictable.
 

Scali

Banned
Dec 3, 2004
2,495
0
0
‘open to talking with any GPU vendor about support for their architecture.’

Great detail guys....Your whole fight over AMD/ATI doing nothing with physX is based on that one little statement.

Why did AMD never take nVidia up on this offer? They never even bothered to talk to nVidia to find out of they could negotiate any reasonable license.
THAT is the point here.
AMD did NOTHING to even try and make PhysX a multi-vendor physics solution.
How can you blame nVidia? They said they were open to talks. It's not their fault that AMD was not interested (and AMD made that known quite publicly).
 

Scali

Banned
Dec 3, 2004
2,495
0
0
* despite Scali's attempt to cast BP as if it were wholly a victim of RIG's incompetence

I did not say nor even imply that. Don't take things to the extreme.
My point was a COMPLETELY different one, trying to explain the difference between responsibility and cause.
In fact, in some cases the actual cause cannot even be established, but there will always be a responsible party.
 

Mem

Lifer
Apr 23, 2000
21,476
13
81
Why did AMD never take nVidia up on this offer? They never even bothered to talk to nVidia to find out of they could negotiate any reasonable license.
THAT is the point here.
AMD did NOTHING to even try and make PhysX a multi-vendor physics solution.
How can you blame nVidia? They said they were open to talks. It's not their fault that AMD was not interested (and AMD made that known quite publicly).

Do you blame them?..Nvidia is AMD's direct competitor ,so you want them to pay Nvidia for the license so they can adopt Nvidia's way of doing things?..get real will you,they are there to compete with Nvidia and take some of the competition's profits away from Nvidia ,not to give them money.

AMD can go their own route and with their own engineers(thats what they get paid for ) and not to help Nvidia.
 

Scali

Banned
Dec 3, 2004
2,495
0
0
Do you blame them?..Nvidia is AMD's direct competitor ,so you want them to pay Nvidia for the license so they can adopt Nvidia's way of doing things?..get real will you,they are there to compete with Nvidia and take some of the competition's profits away from Nvidia ,not to give them money.

AMD can go their own route and with their own engineers(thats what they get paid for ) and not to help Nvidia.

AMD went with Havok/Intel, that OTHER direct competitor of AMD.