**thread name change* Nvidia and AMD moral and immoral business practices

[Grooveriding]

So they must have fooled you then since you have their products in your system? Im pretty sure if you want the absolute fastest performance in your system in would be Triple Sli GTX 480

That's selective reasoning. As I said I use cards from either vendor, but I don't use cards out of a preference for a vendor.

These forums have become rife with an attitude of posters only claiming cards made by one or the other are worth it.

It's a shame when people come here for some decent advice, they end up getting sold to by armchair salesmen with some bizarre agenda to convince everyone only one vendor is the one to buy.

 

[Creig]

To put it short, Nvidia is not helping gaming if AMD video card user don't experience the exact some thing as a Nvidia video card user does. Nvidia is unethical if whatever they do is not free.

Based upon this logic, Nvidia is not helping the gaming community because neither they do it for free, nor do it so it is free for everyone. It is unethical because it is only free for Nvidia user and not for AMD user. Instead of seeing it as adding values to a game for Nvidia user, some see it as taking advantage from non-Nvidia user, obviously they are not Nvidia users. AMD on the other hand have nothing, no physics, no 3d or any other stuffs that adds values to any game, and those will complained above believed that it is okay. Hardware vendor is not suppose to build any software to make developers' life easier, and it is ethical not to.

Suppose the above are all true, then "Game Evolved" is the worst possible idea AMD can have because if they start making proprietary stuff than they will turn from ethical to unethical. If not, then "Game Evolved" will do nothing but burning money for the company.

So is AMD being stupid to do something that is known to be wrong and unethical, or being smart to do something that is not wrong and not unethical?

Interestingly, no one see this action as being late.

I guess it's how you look at things. I was hanging around here back when AT was still hosted on Geocities and have been a hardware enthusiast even longer than that. And over the years, I've seen Nvdia make many more questionable decisions than ATi/AMD. And it doesn't appear that they have any plans to change anytime soon. It's as simple as that.

Nvidia has more software enhancements than AMD, but artificially restricts their use to their own hardware. Even to the point that some of them (PhysX) will not function with an AMD card installed in the system. AMD, on the other hand, has fewer enhancements but their work has benefited Nvidia owners as well as AMD's own customers.

Personally, I'll take AMD's approach over Nvidia's. If Nvidia were to change their corporate strategy and relax their iron-fisted control a bit, I might be inclined to think more highly of them. But given their past behavior, I think this to be an unlikely wish.

 

[Seero]

So you first put in your own logic, which looks flawed
Then we get your suppositions, which look flawed
Then you pose a question which cant be answered
And finally you finish with "Interestingly, no one see this action being late."

Really Seero.. i cant understand what you are talking about. 100% honest.

What is my logic in your opinion?

 

[n0x1ous]

That's selective reasoning. As I said I use cards from either vendor, but I don't use cards out of a preference for a vendor.

These forums have become rife with an attitude of posters only claiming cards made by one or the other are worth it.

It's a shame when people come here for some decent advice, they end up getting sold to by armchair salesmen with some bizarre agenda to convince everyone only one vendor is the one to buy.

I don't disagree as I have/had cards from both vendors as well, but I was just curious since most of your posts don't have much good to say about Fermi and are positive about Evergreen (nothing wrong with that as its your opinion), so I was just wondering if maybe you got a smokin deal on the 480's or something?.... Just curious what your reasons for getting them were?

 

[Grooveriding]

I don't disagree as I have/had cards from both vendors as well, but I was just curious since most of your posts don't have much good to say about Fermi and are positive about Evergreen (nothing wrong with that as its your opinion), so I was just wondering if maybe you got a smokin deal on the 480's or something?.... Just curious what your reasons for getting them were?

After selling my 5870s I got a pair of 480s for $80 with the money I netted from the 5870 sale. :thumbsup: I have a friend who works in sales of hardware and had a lot of Zotac 480s and I was able to get a deal.

The 480s are better for my resolution than the 5870s were, firstly because they have more memory and second because SLI scales better than CF. I really don't like the heat and noise of the cards, but they perform very well. I have a low opinion of all the physx, cuda, 3dvision feature pushing which lends itself to me giving scathing comments about NV at times. I've tried all of them and don't think they justify the hype. For some people they're great, in my opinion framerate is king.

I get that NV has higher frames right now than AMD, I look at things from the perspective of who is getting stuff out the door faster right now, so when I say AMD is leading, I'm saying it in the context that they are pushing faster cards out to us consumers ahead of where NV is at.

If the 6 series bombs out, I'll change my tune. I certainly hope it doesn't, if NV was releasing a brand new series next month, I'd be just as hopeful they were monster performers as I am for the 6 series to be one too :thumbsup:

 

[Kuzi]

Guys, if we look at PC gaming since the early 3D days, say from 1996 till now, it was NV that provided a "superior" gaming experience compared to all other companies. Yes 3Dfx was better during the first couple of years, but NV later caught up. And yes, there were brief periods where Matrox/ATI/PowerVR caught up or got ahead of NV, but NV overtook them again. So overall, if we consider both hardware and software, NV by far provided the best gaming experience on the PC and by a wide margin.

But ATI have been really impressive the last two years, they have put a lot of pressure on NV, and it will only increase with the release of the 6xxx series cards. Now where the hell is my Cayman Pro card?

 

[n0x1ous]

After selling my 5870s I got a pair of 480s for $80 with the money I netted from the 5870 sale. :thumbsup: I have a friend who works in sales of hardware and had a lot of Zotac 480s and I was able to get a deal.

The 480s are better for my resolution than the 5870s were, firstly because they have more memory and second because SLI scales better than CF. I really don't like the heat and noise of the cards, but they perform very well. I have a low opinion of all the physx, cuda, 3dvision feature pushing which lends itself to me giving scathing comments about NV at times. I've tried all of them and don't think they justify the hype. For some people they're great, in my opinion framerate is king.

I get that NV has higher frames right now than AMD, I look at things from the perspective of who is getting stuff out the door faster right now, so when I say AMD is leading, I'm saying it in the context that they are pushing faster cards out to us consumers ahead of where NV is at.

If the 6 series bombs out, I'll change my tune. I certainly hope it doesn't, if NV was releasing a brand new series next month, I'd be just as hopeful they were monster performers as I am for the 6 series to be one too :thumbsup:

Thanks for the explanation. All valid points and makes understanding wher e your coming from make perfect sense. How much you sellin' the 480's for if Cayman is up to par for you?

 

[sandorski]

I smell desperation - NV deploys every single shill now to counter ATI's upcoming bang...

Seems like it. I wonder what's coming out next week?

 

[Seero]

I guess it's how you look at things. I was hanging around here back when AT was still hosted on Geocities and have been a hardware enthusiast even longer than that. And over the years, I've seen Nvdia make many more questionable decisions than ATi/AMD. And it doesn't appear that they have any plans to change anytime soon. It's as simple as that.

Nvidia has more software enhancements than AMD, but artificially restricts their use to their own hardware. Even to the point that some of them (PhysX) will not function with an AMD card installed in the system. AMD, on the other hand, has fewer enhancements but their work has benefited Nvidia owners as well as AMD's own customers.

Personally, I'll take AMD's approach over Nvidia's. If Nvidia were to change their corporate strategy and relax their iron-fisted control a bit, I might be inclined to think more highly of them. But given their past behavior, I think this to be an unlikely wish.

Why not ask AMD to support Nvidia + AMD configuration via their drivers? Why doesn't AMD drivers work on Nvidia cards? Why doesn't AMD reverse engineer Nvidia's card and re-engineer a new card that does whatever a Nvidia card does plus more? In fact, that was what they did to Intel to become successful at the first place.

 

[n0x1ous]

I have a low opinion of all the physx, cuda, 3dvision feature pushing which lends itself to me giving scathing comments about NV at times. I've tried all of them and don't think they justify the hype. For some people they're great, in my opinion framerate is king.

Groove, just wondering what your impressions of the 3D vision particularly. I haven't been able to try it out. I've heard its hit or miss depending on game (like Metro really good, but some others not so good) Just would appreciate your thoughts on it as I haven't been able to find too many reviews.....

 

[Grooveriding]

Groove, just wondering what your impressions of the 3D vision particularly. I haven't been able to try it out. I've heard its hit or miss depending on game (like Metro really good, but some others not so good) Just would appreciate your thoughts on it as I haven't been able to find too many reviews.....

I've used it a bit here and there at a buddy's place. It's not that I felt 'wow this sucks' It was definitely cool, but not something I'd want to play under all the time. I've played WoW, TF2, Batman, COD, Metro and some other source titles.

I'd say Metro was the most impressive, TF2 was cool as well, but it's really not suited to an online FPS, unless you don't care about how well you are doing as it gets in the way of aiming well because of the depth effect.

I think it would be a lot better on a bigger screen. I think 23" is the best right now ? It's a pretty niche feature imo. Definitely something you want to try before you buy it, some of my friends hate it, some say it makes them nauseous, my friend with the setup loves it.

I don't know if it works on 3D HDTVs ? Last I heard it did not. I think that would be a better way to use it. The other thing that I did not like too much, is it washes out colours, IQ is not as good as your actual monitor. This might be in part because you can only get 120hZ TN panels, but I think some of the washed-out effect is just inherent to 3dvision.

 

[n0x1ous]

I've used it a bit here and there at a buddy's place. It's not that I felt 'wow this sucks' It was definitely cool, but not something I'd want to play under all the time. I've played WoW, TF2, Batman, COD, Metro and some other source titles.

I'd say Metro was the most impressive, TF2 was cool as well, but it's really not suited to an online FPS, unless you don't care about how well you are doing as it gets in the way of aiming well because of the depth effect.

I think it would be a lot better on a bigger screen. I think 23" is the best right now ? It's a pretty niche feature imo. Definitely something you want to try before you buy it, some of my friends hate it, some say it makes them nauseous, my friend with the setup loves it.

I don't know if it works on 3D HDTVs ? Last I heard it did not. I think that would be a better way to use it. The other thing that I did not like too much, is it washes out colours, IQ is not as good as your actual monitor. This might be in part because you can only get 120hZ TN panels, but I think some of the washed-out effect is just inherent to 3dvision.

Thanks alot man, good explanation.

 

[Keysplayr]

I guess it's how you look at things. I was hanging around here back when AT was still hosted on Geocities and have been a hardware enthusiast even longer than that. And over the years, I've seen Nvdia make many more questionable decisions than ATi/AMD. And it doesn't appear that they have any plans to change anytime soon. It's as simple as that.

Nvidia has more software enhancements than AMD, but artificially restricts their use to their own hardware. Even to the point that some of them (PhysX) will not function with an AMD card installed in the system. AMD, on the other hand, has fewer enhancements but their work has benefited Nvidia owners as well as AMD's own customers.

Personally, I'll take AMD's approach over Nvidia's. If Nvidia were to change their corporate strategy and relax their iron-fisted control a bit, I might be inclined to think more highly of them. But given their past behavior, I think this to be an unlikely wish.

Don't take this the wrong way, but it sounds to me like you're more of a Graphics card company lobbyist rather than a Graphics card enthusiast?
Correct me if I'm wrong? You would let your feelings for a company sway your purchasing decision even if the product you end up with is inferior? While others would simply buy what's best for them.

 

[SirPauly]

I've used it a bit here and there at a buddy's place. It's not that I felt 'wow this sucks' It was definitely cool, but not something I'd want to play under all the time. I've played WoW, TF2, Batman, COD, Metro and some other source titles.

I'd say Metro was the most impressive, TF2 was cool as well, but it's really not suited to an online FPS, unless you don't care about how well you are doing as it gets in the way of aiming well because of the depth effect.

I think it would be a lot better on a bigger screen. I think 23" is the best right now ? It's a pretty niche feature imo. Definitely something you want to try before you buy it, some of my friends hate it, some say it makes them nauseous, my friend with the setup loves it.

I don't know if it works on 3D HDTVs ? Last I heard it did not. I think that would be a better way to use it. The other thing that I did not like too much, is it washes out colours, IQ is not as good as your actual monitor. This might be in part because you can only get 120hZ TN panels, but I think some of the washed-out effect is just inherent to 3dvision.

What washed out effect are you talking about? Can you expand?

 

[MagickMan]

Don't take this the wrong way, but it sounds to me like you're more of a Graphics card company lobbyist rather than a Graphics card enthusiast?
Correct me if I'm wrong? You would let your feelings for a company sway your purchasing decision even if the product you end up with is inferior? While others would simply buy what's best for them.

Not all of us are hardware agnostic with video cards, due to nV's policies and tactics over the years. Some of us are even still miffed over their blatant lies during the Fermi debacle. Fact: all of us are swayed in our buying decisions and our experiences shape our choices. Somehow you feel that being a robot and ignoring how we feel makes us better consumers, but the reality is that without that discernment we're not much more than cracked up mice hammering a pellet dispenser.

You're in deep with them, I can understand that. They give you stuff, tell you inside info, and you feel connected with them. Others of us aren't and we don't care for Green's business practices and how they try forcing proprietary standards down the public's throat. In many ways nVidia's a lot like Apple, arrogant bastards who feel that anything they pinch out will be embraced and loved by the adoring masses. Not that AMD/ATi have always acted like saints, but many feel that they're the lesser of the two evils.

 

[Lonbjerg]

Nvidia has more software enhancements than AMD, but artificially restricts their use to their own hardware. Even to the point that some of them (PhysX) will not function with an AMD card installed in the system. AMD, on the other hand, has fewer enhancements but their work has benefited Nvidia owners as well as AMD's own customers.

What are you refeering too here?

Because I remember the AMD64 patch to Farcry.
AMD only...unless you cheated the installer, then it ran not only on Intel CPU's...but also under 32 bit OS.

 

[happy medium]

@ Keys and Magic,
Please dont turn this thread into a personal mud slinging contest.
Thanks, op

 

[Seero]

Not all of us are hardware agnostic with video cards, due to nV's policies and tactics over the years. Some of us are even still miffed over their blatant lies during the Fermi debacle. Fact: all of us are swayed in our buying decisions and our experiences shape our choices. Somehow you feel that being a robot and ignoring how we feel makes us better consumers, but the reality is that without that discernment we're not much more than cracked up mice hammering a pellet dispenser.

You're in deep with them, I can understand that. They give you stuff, tell you inside info, and you feel connected with them. Others of us aren't and we don't care for Green's business practices and how they try forcing proprietary standards down the public's throat. In many ways nVidia's a lot like Apple, arrogant bastards who feel that anything they pinch out will be embraced and loved by the adoring masses. Not that AMD/ATi have always acted like saints, but many feel that they're the lesser of the two evils.

Very interesting in many ways.

What was your bad experience with Nvidia products? How does those bad business practices affected the product you have purchased from Nvidia? How does AMD's good business practices affected the product you have purchased from AMD? and how are they different?

 

[SirPauly]

I don't understand, without the proprietary, there wouldn't be any choice at all and nVidia would be offering nothing but words and promises. I don't understand how waiting is a good thing for customers.

 

[MagickMan]

@ Keys and Magic,
Please dont turn this thread into a personal mud slinging contest.
Thanks, op

It directly impacts the subject matter and many of us don't like how nV is trying to "keep PC gaming alive". You can't start a subject like this and believe that certain issues aren't going to crop up, it's like bringing up the recession at the dinner table and being shocked when someone mentions politics.

 

[Lonbjerg]

I don't understand, without the proprietary, there wouldn't be any choice at all and nVidia would be offering nothing but words and promises. I don't understand how waiting is a good thing for customers.

I agree, look at what DirectX (proprietary) has done for PC gaming.
Should we have cursed it because it was proprietary and stuck with OpenGL?
I think not.

 

[MagickMan]

Very interesting in many ways.

What was your bad experience with Nvidia products? How does those bad business practices affected the product you have purchased from Nvidia? How does AMD's good business practices affected the product you have purchased from AMD? and how are they different?

I think that's already been pointed out. Many don't care for PhysX, myself included, and that a proprietary standard like that locks out competition. Personally, I'm still irritated over the Fermi misfire and the blatant lies from the company itself. Huang holding up the faux Fermi at that press conference and declaring that the launch was imminent. I don't know, during that very long wait between the lie and the launch I stopped being a Green fan and decided to buy 5800 cards.

 

[happy medium]

It directly impacts the subject matter

It does? How does your negative opinion on Nvidia's business practices have anything to do with the article I linked in the OP?

ANd how does Keys personal preference have anything to do with the article?

The article is about Nvidia's TWIMTBP program pushing graphics for PC , so we don't have to play pure console ports. AT least that how it reads to me.

Edit: there is no mention of Physx in the article or who likes it or who dosen't.

 

[Outrage]

Nvidia wants to turn "pc gaming" into "nvidia gaming". So choose wisley from whom you purchase your next video card.

 

[Lonbjerg]

Nvidia wants to turn "pc gaming" into "nvidia gaming". So choose wisley from whom you purchase your next video card.

If owning a NVIDIA cards gives me more features in games, the choice is simple.
I won't reward AMD for doing nothing.