**thread name change* Nvidia and AMD moral and immoral business practices

[Stoneburner]

The article is correct since PC gaming does need some support. However, Nvidia's proprietary technology and backdoor BS does not help PC gaming in the long run. Nvidia's goal is to make themselves money and they make money from PC Gaming. The bs going on with games like BATMAN AA and other things that have cropped up the last 2 years are hurting PC GAMING. If there's a clear and SIMPLE choice between ATI and Nvidia, great. If the companies are going to pull underhanded nonsense they are hurting the market.

 

[Obsoleet]

And I wouldn't ever disagree. You have to go with the best value for your money, be it AMD or Nvidia. But if I had to choose between two equivalent cards that were at approximately the same price, I would choose the AMD over the Nvidia because of Nvdia's low ethical standards.

I agree with this. Best of breed is the way to go, but given between two equal parts, I'd rather use AMD over NV for the same reasons. Right now, there is no semblance of equality, the AMD parts are superior due to the reduced heat/power/noise at the same performance level. Drivers are roughly equal as well in my anecdotal experience, NV took a big fall there and AMD took a step up.

 

[Dribble]

You mean, stuff like hiring viral marketing companies like AEG to infiltrate our forums and tell us how great Nvidia products are? Stuff like spoon feeding viral marketers like Rollo info about ATi graphical glitches in games so he can spread it around to make Nvidia look better? Stuff like making and locking out AA in Batman:AA, but then claiming that it was the developer who locked it out, not them? That kind of stuff?

Yes, I do wish that AMD was more pro-active, but not if it means that they play just as dirty as Nvidia does. Can you imagine the mess PC gaming would become if AMD abandoned all scruples as well?

AMD supports Charlie, who makes Rollo look like a sweet innocent puppy. While I am sure you'll claim Charlie is not affiliated to Ati he clearly takes their money for adverts, which is if anything a closer link then Rollo who only gets free cards for his efforts. I am pretty sure Charlie is present on this forum under some alias, and his disciples seem to be everywhere.

Both companies are as bad as each other which is not surprising. Nether exists to be nice to us, they exist to make their share holders money. To think AMD is somehow a nice company and Nvidia is somehow nasty is foolish.

As to batman AA, the most over argued topic on this forum, it really supports what I was saying. Nvidia provided a solution - arguably unfairly (and there has been much arguing), AMD whined but did nothing.

Are you saying I should buy AMD cards because I feel sorry for them, because life is hard and no one loves them? Of course not, I buy the best card for the money that provides the best performance, most solid drivers, and most extra features. AMD isn't some abandoned kitten desperate for my love, it's a big ugly corporation who cares about nothing but separating me from my hard earned income, just like Nvidia.

Personally I find this inferiority complex marketing more irritating then nvidia's more honest "we're not particularly nice but we're gonna work hard to give you more for your money".

Jen Hsun whines incessantly - when he's not boasting. That doesn't excuse AMD, but stones and glass houses and all that.

Not so much whine, he's more a Steve Job's wannabe - aggressive, arrogant, focused on his company winning not the greater good. I think it is possible to be successful without appearing like that (look at google), but the personality cult style of aggressive focused leaders does tend to work - it's obvious nvidia are a company with tons of drive, new ideas, and a strong will to win.

You gotta wonder about AMD - they could really do with a Steve Jobs wannabe too - they've been whipped by intel so many times almost seem resigned to loosing before they even begin. They seem to lack that arrogant swagger, a belief they can really be the best, it shows in their products and their execution.

 

[Grooveriding]

Are you saying I should buy AMD cards because I feel sorry for them, because life is hard and no one loves them? Of course not, I buy the best card for the money that provides the best performance, most solid drivers, and most extra features. AMD isn't some abandoned kitten desperate for my love, it's a big ugly corporation who cares about nothing but separating me from my hard earned income, just like Nvidia.

Personally I find this inferiority complex marketing more irritating then nvidia's more honest "we're not particularly nice but we're gonna work hard to give you more for your money".



Not so much whine, he's more a Steve Job's wannabe - aggressive, arrogant, focused on his company winning not the greater good. I think it is possible to be successful without appearing like that (look at google), but the personality cult style of aggressive focused leaders does tend to work - it's obvious nvidia are a company with tons of drive, new ideas, and a strong will to win.

You gotta wonder about AMD - they could really do with a Steve Jobs wannabe too - they've been whipped by intel so many times almost seem resigned to loosing before they even begin. They seem to lack that arrogant swagger, a belief they can really be the best, it shows in their products and their execution.

Where on earth do you get these notions from ? AMD has dominated the DX11 video market for the past year. It's only now over a year later that NV is gaining any traction by firesaling GTX 460s for sub $200 prices. How long is that going to last once the 6 series arrive on the shelves next month ?

You want to talk value ? Talk to someone who bought a 5870 or 5850 over one year ago at release. That was some serious value. And now AMD is on the cusp of releasing another new architecture in less than a month. That will again offer more performance than anything nvidia has on the market while once again nvidia has nothing coming down the pipe anytime soon beyond the rumors and bs we're bound to start hearing soon because of 6 series stealing sales.

All I see in your post is a buy-in to nvidia's corporate image, but missing the forest for the trees in seeing which company has actually been delivering better framerates at a faster pace. That's AMD man, I don't care which vendor made the cards in my rig, just what it offers me, and no amount of useless features I can't use or ones that work in about five or six games out of thousands will trump faster framerates on a quicker release schedule.

NV is the underdog right now, credit to them for fooling some members of the market into believing the opposite. If there is one thing NV does well, it's marketing.

 

[Madcatatlas]

Less dribble and more logical analysis pls.

Anyone with an eye can read Charlies Intel articles/news/whatever and see absolutely no AMD sponsoring in it. His hate for Nvidia is right there, clear as day and guess what Dribble, it makes it really easy to separate the information.

This is offtopic aswell ofc.

 

[n0x1ous]

From what I heard, AMD had multiple teams out working with developers on DX11 content back when Fermi was still being held together with wood screws. That's active action, isn't it? ATi had been working on hardware tessellation for years and actively pushed MS to include it in DX. And now it is has arrived and is the most talked about feature in DX11. That's active action. And they're also not deliberately blocking Nvidia owners from enjoying the benefits of their assistance, either. Fermi owners can see the DX11 content that AMD developer teams helped with. That says a lot, in my book.

AMD might not be putting in as much time into extras as Nvidia, but they're also not bragging them up as much. I have a feeling that AMD puts in more effort than we ever hear about. They're simply just not as vocal about it as Nvidia.

I'll give you the tesselation one as they did have it back in R600 IIRC? But its interesting that a feature they pushed and developed first they are actually quite inferior at compared to Nv (Granted six months later but the designs were probably finished at similar times, and I'm sure HD 6xxx will improve their position on that)

So is marketing evil to you? Should no tech companies market their products and offerings? I think you'll find that just because AMD doesn't market their products as much doesn't mean everyone else who does is evil and manipulating. In fact, its strange they don't. The Evergreen series is a set of really great products and they could do themselves a favor by being more aggressive in that area.

I won't get in the "deliberating blocking" fiasco as it can be argued both ways and round and round the circle would go. You say block, others say NV doesn't want to QA their work on competitors products etc etc....

You have a "feeling" AMD puts in more work and doesn't talk about it. Hmmm I have a feeling I will win the lottery this evening. Doesn't make it true. Physx 3d vision etc etc are real products whether you personally value them or not some people do.

Anyway, yeah I give you the tesselation. AMD doesn't do zero in this department, but like you said I think we can both agree their efforts (or fruits of those efforts since you believe AMD does much here without notice) are miniscule compared to Nv. I would love it for AMD to get out some 3D products, OpenCL GPU physics etc and a standard would be great for those.....but they just haven't delivered...yet

If you truly believe that Nv is evil, and AMD is a saint than I can commend you as you follow your convictions and thats admirable, but I don't think AMD is as heavenly as you seem to think. If they were such saints, why did they gouge you on the HD 5000 pricing compared to HD 4XXX.

And Charlie's BS alone makes nvidia marketing look a lot less incriminating.

 

[n0x1ous]

Where on earth do you get these notions from ? AMD has dominated the DX11 video market for the past year. It's only now over a year later that NV is gaining any traction by firesaling GTX 460s for sub $200 prices. How long is that going to last once the 6 series arrive on the shelves next month ?

You want to talk value ? Talk to someone who bought a 5870 or 5850 over one year ago at release. That was some serious value. And now AMD is on the cusp of releasing another new architecture in less than a month. That will again offer more performance than anything nvidia has on the market while once again nvidia has nothing coming down the pipe anytime soon beyond the rumors and bs we're bound to start hearing soon because of 6 series stealing sales.

All I see in your post is a buy-in to nvidia's corporate image, but missing the forest for the trees in seeing which company has actually been delivering better framerates at a faster pace. That's AMD man, I don't care which vendor made the cards in my rig, just what it offers me, and no amount of useless features I can't use or ones that work in about five or six games out of thousands will trump faster framerates on a quicker release schedule.

NV is the underdog right now, credit to them for fooling some members of the market into believing the opposite. If there is one thing NV does well, it's marketing.

So they must have fooled you then since you have their products in your system? Im pretty sure if you want the absolute fastest performance in your system in would be Triple Sli GTX 480

 

[Obsoleet]

You want to talk value ? Talk to someone who bought a 5870 or 5850 over one year ago at release. That was some serious value.

$380 shipped, launch day. Been a great card. Anyone who didn't see that coming is a fool. There is no need to sit around and wait when it's clear AMD has good tech (they had HDMI audio first, triple monitor from 1 card, low heat power and noise). Looking forward to buying a 6870 on launch day, it will have everything I've loved about the 5870 on a single GPU and more I'm sure. I think NV wants me to wait for their Kepler or Maxwell, but I'm not buying into their propaganda.
AMD has what Nvidia WANTS to release, but AMD has it today.

 

[n0x1ous]

$380 shipped, launch day. Been a great card. Anyone who didn't see that coming is a fool. There is no need to sit around and wait when it's clear AMD has good tech (they had HDMI audio first, triple monitor from 1 card, low heat power and noise). Looking forward to buying a 6870 on launch day, it will have everything I've loved about the 5870 on a single GPU and more I'm sure. I think NV wants me to wait for their Kepler or Maxwell, but I'm not buying into their propaganda.
AMD has what Nvidia WANTS to release, but AMD has it today.

Did HD 6xxx launch today?? I kid, I kid...point taken. And valid points indeed about HDMI audio, triple monitor on 1, but Nvidia releasing their roadmap to business folk interested in GPGPU isn't propaganda. For those fields, knowing the roadmap and whats coming is critical to their adoption decisions as those decisions need to be made quite a bit ahead of time.

Calling that propaganda would be like saying AMD telling us about Bulldozer and Fusion for the last four years without having the product out....or is it only propaganda when Nv announces their roadmap ahead of time?

 

[Kenmitch]

I also think its great that Nvidia seems to work better "out of the box", mabe thats also what there trying to accomplish?

Maybe not the best choice of words but to me it seems like your trying to steer the thread into an arguementive topic. Just my personal observation

I don't think nvidia is doing anything that it isn't obligated to do. After all if your gonna incorporate proprietary features into your gpu who's responsable for making the software, tools, training to use the features?

As a whole proprietary features are not good for the gaming industry. If you wanna push proprietary features more power to ya

 

[Flipped Gazelle]

So they must have fooled you then since you have their products in your system? Im pretty sure if you want the absolute fastest performance in your system in would be Triple Sli GTX 480

Triple CF 5970? Is such a monstrosity possible?

 

[Creig]

If you truly believe that Nv is evil, and AMD is a saint

If you want to take my opinions and stretch them to the ridiculous, that's up to you. But the fact of the matter is that if an editorial reports that a video card company has been caught doing something questionable or unethical, it usually turns out to be Nvdia rather than AMD.

 

[Flipped Gazelle]

If you want to take my opinions and stretch them to the ridiculous, that's up to you. But the fact of the matter is that if the news reports that a video company has been caught doing something questionable or unethical, it usually turns out to be Nvdia.

In all honesty, as long as both companies (as well as other tech products) use Foxconn, nobody truly can claim the higher ethical ground.

 

[n0x1ous]

Triple CF 5970?

I'm pretty sure 4 GPU's are the max so that would limit it to two 5970 cards with a total of 4 GPU's.

Even if you could do 3-5970's one could make an argument that the scaling would be negative and give you worse results with trying to have 6 GPU's communicating.

Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong about 6 GPU CF with AMD....

As far as I have seen, RIGHT NOW, Triple GTX 480 is the fastest available solution.

 

[Flipped Gazelle]

I'm pretty sure 4 GPU's are the max so that would limit it to two 5970 cards with a total of 4 GPU's.

Even if you could do 3-5970's one could make an argument that the scaling would be negative and give you worse results with trying to have 6 GPU's communicating.

Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong about 6 GPU CF with AMD....

As far as I have seen, RIGHT NOW, Triple GTX 480 is the fastest available solution.

I have no idea - that's why I edited my post (after you quoted), "is such a monstrosity possible?" :hmm:

Of course, even if 3x 5970's were possible, I'd still place my bets on SLI scaling better than Xfire.

 

[n0x1ous]

If you want to take my opinions and stretch them to the ridiculous, that's up to you. But the fact of the matter is that if an editorial reports that a video card company has been caught doing something questionable or unethical, it usually turns out to be Nvdia rather than AMD.

Well what should I think? you say Nvidia is unethical/immoral, but you don't have anything negative to say about AMD so you must think they don't do unethical/immoral things. let me ask you...do you think AMD does anything unethical or immoral?

Questionable or unethical are all relative ne way. What one person finds questionable/unethical might not be to someone else

 

[n0x1ous]

I have no idea - that's why I edited my post (after you quoted), "is such a monstrosity possible?" :hmm:

Of course, even if 3x 5970's were possible, I'd still place my bets on SLI scaling better than Xfire.

My bad, I saw 3x 5970 and didn't finish reading the post. I apologize. I agree with you on the likely scaling of such a situation. I doubt an Nv 6 GPU solution would scale very well either.

 

[Tempered81]

Well the absolute fastest (according to hwbot world records) is 4x 480, then 4x 5870, then 2x 5970, 3x 480/470/5870....

 

[n0x1ous]

If you want to take my opinions and stretch them to the ridiculous, that's up to you. But the fact of the matter is that if an editorial reports that a video card company has been caught doing something questionable or unethical, it usually turns out to be Nvdia rather than AMD.

I hope none of the "editorial reports" you reference come from S l A where every minute Nvida is in existence means pure evil lurks around the next corner.

If not, then sure I agree that most reports question Nvida more than AMD. Doesn't make them true or accurate. Could just be AMD on the attack.

 

[Flipped Gazelle]

My bad, I saw 3x 5970 and didn't finish reading the post. I apologize. I agree with you on the likely scaling of such a situation. I doubt an Nv 6 GPU solution would scale very well either.

Not your bad... I ninja-edited.

I just wanted to say that so nobody would think that you selectively quoted me.

 

[n0x1ous]

Well the absolute fastest (according to hwbot world records) is 4x 480, then 4x 5870, then 2x 5970, 3x 480/470/5870....

Correct, but AFAIK that setup is only supported under 3d Mark Vantage and not any games, which is why I didn't reference it.

Unless this has changed? Tempered is 4 GTX setup possible with games now?

 

[zokudu]

And I wouldn't ever disagree. You have to go with the best value for your money, be it AMD or Nvidia. But if I had to choose between two equivalent cards that were at approximately the same price, I would choose the AMD over the Nvidia because of Nvdia's low ethical standards.

This is my feeling at the end of the day. Even outside of S|A which is obviously slanted the majority of GPU "Scandals" if you will come from the NV camp.

 

[T2k]

I smell desperation - NV deploys every single shill (= Fuad, not the OP, sorry for the confusion ) now to counter ATI's upcoming bang...

 

[Seero]

To put it short, Nvidia is not helping gaming if AMD video card user don't experience the exact some thing as a Nvidia video card user does. Nvidia is unethical if whatever they do is not free.

Based upon this logic, Nvidia is not helping the gaming community because neither they do it for free, nor do it so it is free for everyone. It is unethical because it is only free for Nvidia user and not for AMD user. Instead of seeing it as adding values to a game for Nvidia user, some see it as taking advantage from non-Nvidia user, obviously they are not Nvidia users. AMD on the other hand have nothing, no physics, no 3d or any other stuffs that adds values to any game, and those will complained above believed that it is okay. Hardware vendor is not suppose to build any software to make developers' life easier, and it is ethical not to.

Suppose the above are all true, then "Game Evolved" is the worst possible idea AMD can have because if they start making proprietary stuff than they will turn from ethical to unethical. If not, then "Game Evolved" will do nothing but burning money for the company.

So is AMD being stupid to do something that is known to be wrong and unethical, or being smart to do something that is not wrong and not unethical?

Interestingly, no one see this action as being late.

 

[Madcatatlas]

So you first put in your own logic, which looks flawed
Then we get your suppositions, which look flawed
Then you pose a question which cant be answered
And finally you finish with "Interestingly, no one see this action being late."

Really Seero.. i cant understand what you are talking about. 100% honest.