**thread name change* Nvidia and AMD moral and immoral business practices

[Seero]

I don't care of nVidia doesn't allow PhysX in AMD cards, I do care if they block PhysX from their own cards when the primary card is AMD.

There is a difference between "block" and "no longer support." Anyone can use older drivers to make PhysX work under Nv+ATI config..

Lets be fair for a second, if you ain't buying newer product from Nvidia, than why shall you benefit from newer codes from Nvidia via its drivers?

In high-level speech, Nvidia video cards are designed can handle both physX, cuda, and generate graphic contents. Yes, it can also serves as a off-load unit when the primary display card is also from Nvidia. Otherwise, Nvidia must extend their testing consisting all video cards from other companies. That is an expense Nvidia is not willing to pay.

Again, newer video cards all follow the WDDM standard, so in theory, Nvidia driver can work on ATI cards and vice versa, but they don't. If someone ask "Why doesn't ATI driver works for my Nvidia card?" and the answer will probably be "are you flicking dumb?" Which is perfectly logical right? You may say "But it works without any problem whatoever!" Well that is simply coincident. Gratz if you have tried and succeeded. Again, the real dirty part about Nvidia is that they will actually allow a driver get out of their doors that does not prevent a Nvidia card to act as a PPU. I mean seriously? It looks like a deliberate act than an accident to me so people will be able to taste what PhysX is while using their ATI card as the primary display card.

Note that neither Nvidia or AMD support cross vendor setup. You can complain to AMD when your Nvidia card stops working after you put in your new AMD card. To be a bit technical, each video card has an ID which allows drivers to detect its presents. If Nvidia can disable its card as soon as it detects the existence of an ATI card, AMD card also disguise itself to fool Nvidia's detecting algorithms.

Of course, little red riding hoods won't tell you that. Instead, they will actually give you a little hacking script/method to enable it. That way, neither Nvidia or AMD are responsible. And the best part is, if it fails, user will believe that it is because they tries to hack it. Those are the cool tricks these companies' use.

 

[RussianSensation]

Wouldn't that make AMD at the mercy of NV then since NV controls PhysX? It'd be like a competitor going to your company and saying, "hey let's make my proprietary communications protocol standard between both of our companies, but I get to call all shots as to how to further develop it and if I want to cut you off later on, after luring you into complacency and thus delaying your own physics initiatives."

OCZ and Intel are doing that. Here is how that works. To remove bandwidth starvation of faster SSDs, a new standard may have to be created (or you would take up all your PCIe slots). OCZ is launching HSDL, all on their own.

Basically, if HSDL standard becomes mainstream, OCZ essentially will create a standard connection much less limited by bandwidth. This would allow companies to actually push much faster SSDs in RAID, etc.

Intel is attempting to do the same with Lightpeak, which is at least 2x faster than USB 3.0. Whether or not Lightpeak or HSDL will become successful is a different story. However, all kinds of companies are spending their own $$$ in order to create progress, which will allow for their faster products to sell better too.

What about HD-DVD supporters finally jumping onboard with Blu-Ray? We have seen examples of competitors supporting a uniform standard which often benefits the whole industry. Before Blu-Ray became the standard, Blu-Ray adoption was slower.

speaking of Rollo and looking at your sig has prompted me to ask why does Wreckage just disappear for several weeks at a time? I always wondered if he gets temporally banned but it never says so by his name.

Ya, I have wondered the same thing. While Wreckage is clearly pro-NV, he does bring some interesting points to the discussion such as pinpointing areas where GTX460 can even go head-to-toe with HD5870 (which isn't necessarily bad for a discussion on tessellation engine approaches by both firms). Plus, at least Wreckage buys his own hardware, while Rollo was getting free hardware and still recommended 7800 GTX 512mb for $700+, further claiming it would even appreciate in value over time....and even claimed that 5800 series was somehow better than 9800Pro.

 

[Creig]

Don't take this the wrong way, but it sounds to me like you're more of a Graphics card company lobbyist rather than a Graphics card enthusiast?

:hmm: (considers source)

Correct me if I'm wrong? You would let your feelings for a company sway your purchasing decision even if the product you end up with is inferior? While others would simply buy what's best for them.

I've said repeatedly that given a choice between equivalent cards at equivalent prices, I would choose the AMD card over the Nvidia because I don't like Nvidia's corporate practices. My video card recommendations to customers/friends/family also reflect that sentiment. And taking into consideration the comments of others both here and on other forums, I'm not alone. Given that we're voting with our wallets, Nvidia would do well to pay attention and realize that their methods are turning away potential customers.

I used to be a big Nvidia fan back in the TnT, GF256, GF2, GF3 & GF4 days. They made good hardware and had good drivers. ATi made good hardware as well, but was always hamstrung by crappy drivers. The A-I-W series was especially bad. But starting with the 3DMark01 driver cheat, all Nvidia seemed to care about was retaining the performance crown at any cost. It was at that point that I purchased my first ATi card, a 9500. And I've owned mostly ATi/AMD cards ever since.

I'm not saying I'll never own another Nvidia card ever again. But as long as AMD is making a card as fast as Nvidia's at the same price, I'll probably keep buying Radeons until Nvidia cleans up their act and learns how to place nice with others.

 

[Flipped Gazelle]

But if the user is willing to pay money for an Nvidia part, shouldn't everyone be happy? Nvidia sold a card. AMD sold a card. The gamer has a configuration they want. AMD gets Physx if the user is willing to buy an Nvidia part. Physx adoption just became that much broader. And Nvidia doesn't piss off all those people that bought a card that was working for Physx before the blocked it.

Hush, you. No win-win situations allowed.

 

[Scali]

That is a retort which doesn't address the point at all.

Funny, I thought it was exactly the other way around.
It's far more important to have your own GPU handle physics than having a second GPU of a competing vendor working to do the physics for you.
If AMD had its own decent GPU physics solution, nobody would even be bringing up this issue, because it's irrelevant (how many people use two GPUs in a system, really, and how many of them want to use the secondary for physics?)
In other words, what you're bringing up isn't very relevant, compared to the lack of physics on AMD GPUs period (which WAS the point of this thread, the extra value that nVidia creates... which they couldn't be doing if AMD did the same, or better).

Edit: BTW, I said nothing about whether Nvidia is "nice" or not. I have no idea how you inferred that from my comments. I did say, however, that re: the PhysX issue, both Nv & AMD did what they felt was right for themselves.

Well, you brought up the whole "goodness of the heart" issue. And you can't see how I can infer some value of niceness from your comments? Really now.

 

[Scali]

Nvidia has more software enhancements than AMD, but artificially restricts their use to their own hardware.

There's not a whole lot of artificial restrictions going on...
Eh, PhysX doesn't work on anything but nVidia GPUs because it is based on the Cuda architecture, which obviously is an nVidia-only thing (all GPU vendors design their own architectures, nVidia's extra features are no more compatible with AMD than AMD's are with nVidia's).

They would ACTIVELY have to code an AMD Stream, OpenCL or DirectCompute version in order to make PhysX work on AMD hardware. It is pretty obvious why they're not doing this: a lot of extra work, and the competitor will get all the rewards.

Same goes for most other software enhancements that nVidia has made over the years. They either used nVidia's custom hardware directly, or at least were special features in nVidia's drivers, which would obviously be lacking in other vendor's drivers.

 

[Scali]

I'm not saying I'll never own another Nvidia card ever again. But as long as AMD is making a card as fast as Nvidia's at the same price, I'll probably keep buying Radeons until Nvidia cleans up their act and learns how to place nice with others.

I think part of the problem is that 'the internet' is pretty much deaf when it comes to AMD/ATi's practices.
I could name a list, but that's not the point here.
I just like to point out that it's silly to rule out one company based on such 'principles', then going to another company that pretty much does the same things.

 

[Keysplayr]

But if the user is willing to pay money for an Nvidia part, shouldn't everyone be happy? Nvidia sold a card. AMD sold a card. The gamer has a configuration they want. AMD gets Physx if the user is willing to buy an Nvidia part. Physx adoption just became that much broader. And Nvidia doesn't piss off all those people that bought a card that was working for Physx before the blocked it.

If AMD bought licensing then I guess everyone "would" be happy.
You maintain that NV is holding back the industry by blocking PhysX from ATI.
I maintain that AMD is holding back the industry by not adopting PhysX.

Who is right? Now there is an argument that won't ever end, so let's not even perpetuate one. :thumbsup:

 

[Seero]

I've said repeatedly that given a choice between equivalent cards at equivalent prices, I would choose the AMD card over the Nvidia because I don't like Nvidia's corporate practices....

Clearly you are bias then.

At any rate, what does your opinion of purchase have to do with this topic? Spreading hate towards Nvidia doesn't work on all threads. Explaining why you hate Nvidia also doesn't work on all threads.

Just in case you feel left alone, i will play along.

All Nvidia cards have physX, and cuda out of the box, AMD card doesn't. So if they are equivalent on all other things and selling at the same price, most buyers will get a Nvidia card. The perception is, Nvidia have better drivers.

 

[Grooveriding]

All Nvidia cards have physX, and cuda out of the box, AMD card doesn't. So if they are equivalent on all other things and selling at the same price, most buyers will get a Nvidia card. The perception is, Nvidia have better drivers.

This is your opinion, nothing more than that.

Discussions of Nvidia's shady deceitful tactics particular things like planting Rollo into video card forums are totally relevant. It's something NV did for gamers who peruse video card forums, take them for granted as idiots.

It will be a lot easier to discern the fanboys from the impartial once the 6 series cards come out next month. If they're outperforming NV at similar pricepoints, which is almost a given at this point, and people are recommending to gamers buying lower-performing nvidia hardware because of fluff like physx and cuda, that will be the tell of a fanboy with bias.

Two more weeks and we will see. As to the topic, right now AMD is doing more for gamers than NV is with better performing hardware per their faster release schedule.

 

[SirPauly]

I really ignore gamers, whom believe their recommendations mean something on forums. What I appreciate is gamers whom share their views, limitations and strengths, without the emotional entanglements, self righteous, ego centric, blanket views.

 

[Rezident]

So all you PC gamers should give yours hats up for these guys, as these are the people who make the difference.

This is true, Nvidia do make a difference to PC gaming, they make Batman AA underperform on some PC Gamers hardware - if they really cared about PC gaming they would not do that.

Nvidia make fake cards with wood screws and treat their customers like fools, they make cards that are too expensive, too power hungry and too hot, they made my last system crash with their buggy drivers and the nvlddmkm.sys driver crash every few days, Nvidia abused their dominant market position and showed their true colours. I'm not a fan of any corporation but right now my only option for cards is ATI, they haven't proven to be disgracefully unethical yet.

One line sums up that article:

Of course there is some financial interest behind it.

Ya think? I've happily used Nvidia cards in the past as they made great hardware, my 8800GTX was probably the second best card I've ever owned, but their shameful business "tactics" and all the nasty tricks they pull on both their loyal fans and other PC gamers alike means I'll probably never buy from them again. Competition is great but probity is more important to me now that I'm older and wiser, honestly I hope nvidia's recent troubles continue and they just go away and are replaced by a company that has some respect for its customers.

 

[SlowSpyder]

If AMD bought licensing then I guess everyone "would" be happy.
You maintain that NV is holding back the industry by blocking PhysX from ATI.
I maintain that AMD is holding back the industry by not adopting PhysX.

Who is right? Now there is an argument that won't ever end, so let's not even perpetuate one. :thumbsup:

Fair enough. But the only point that I would contend is that we're not so much talking about holding back, or maybe more accurately AMD not helping to push forward, Physx... no so much PC gaming. By not licensing Physx AMD is not helping to push Physx forward, but I don't know that we can say that Physx is necessarily good for PC gaming.

 

[Lonbjerg]

Two more weeks and we will see. As to the topic, right now AMD is doing more for gamers than NV is with better performing hardware per their faster release schedule.

Say again?
There comes a time where pushes more and more pixles isn't advance, but just maintaining games at their current level.
Physics is the new 3D.
Intel knows this(PhysX).
NVIDIA knows this(Havok).
Even AMD knows this(Hoping on Bullet).

The same "arguments" made against hardware physics are the same ones that were made against hardware 3D cards.
It failed back then...and it will fail today...because stagnation is no good.

 

[SlowSpyder]

Say again?
There comes a time where pushes more and more pixles isn't advance, but just maintaining games at their current level.
Physics is the new 3D.
Intel knows this(PhysX).
NVIDIA knows this(Havok).
Even AMD knows this(Hoping on Bullet).

The same "arguments" made against hardware physics are the same ones that were made against hardware 3D cards.
It failed back then...and it will fail today...because stagnation is no good.

I have a few disagreements with the points you are trying to make here.

First, when the Radeon 5xxx parts were out and Fermi was still a ways off, I had read posts from a few of the pro-Nvidia guys that gamers don't 'need' that much horsepower, the GTX2xx cards are plenty for current games. Then when Fermi released the argument shifted back to how fast Fermi is, especially at DX11... power use didn't matter any more. Noise comes with enthusiast level cards. That kind of stuff. I think how many FPS a card can get in current (and even in older games as BGF10k has pointed out) will always be important. That and how much that performance costs.

The other point, that Physx is more than just pushing pixels, I don't agree. Physx is pretty much that, just pushing more or different pixels than would be drawn without it. It's really that to me, more 'stuff' in a frame. Different pixels drawn. Had you said that Nvidia was more than just about gaming, the things they are doing in the HPC world for example, I would have agreed with you. But I would hardly say physics is the new 3D.

 

[Aristotelian]

I think part of the problem is that 'the internet' is pretty much deaf when it comes to AMD/ATi's practices.
I could name a list, but that's not the point here.
I just like to point out that it's silly to rule out one company based on such 'principles', then going to another company that pretty much does the same things.

I'd like to see this list. Part of the reasoning behind some of the posts in this thread is precisely that Nvidia has immoral business practices while AMD does not. If you can show that AMD has similar practices (i.e., that they are immoral in much the same way as Nvidia are), then those who preferred AMD products would have to realize that the grass is not greener on their side of the field.

 

[Genx87]

Do you remember what happened to 3dfx

They purchased STB without thinking about the costs of running their own hardware company and cutting themselves out of the rest of the market by not selling chips to their new competitors.

3dfx's demise had nothing to do with Glide.

 

[Flipped Gazelle]

Nevermind - I'm just letting it drop.

 

[Seero]

All Nvidia cards have physX, and cuda out of the box, AMD card doesn't. So if they are equivalent on all other things and selling at the same price, most buyers will get a Nvidia card. The perception is, Nvidia have better drivers.

This is your opinion, nothing more than that.

Yes, it is my opinion. However, at least I have some facts to support it.

Discussions of Nvidia's shady deceitful tactics particular things like planting Rollo into video card forums are totally relevant. It's something NV did for gamers who peruse video card forums, take them for granted as idiots.

Are you sure you are different from Rollo?

It will be a lot easier to discern the fanboys from the impartial once the 6 series cards come out next month. If they're outperforming NV at similar pricepoints, which is almost a given at this point, and people are recommending to gamers buying lower-performing nvidia hardware because of fluff like physx and cuda, that will be the tell of a fanboy with bias.

NDA is in effect, meaning that no one knows the performance/pricing of 6xxx. You can persuade people to believe what you believe, but it is just a believe. I say the up coming lottery will consist of the number 3, 16, and 37.

Two more weeks and we will see.

See what? Are you saying in 2 weeks of time AMD will help PC gaming more than Nvidia?

As to the topic, right now AMD is doing more for gamers than NV is...

How so?

... with better performing hardware per their faster release schedule.

Again, are you sure you are different from Rollo?

 

[Seero]

Fair enough. But the only point that I would contend is that we're not so much talking about holding back, or maybe more accurately AMD not helping to push forward, Physx... no so much PC gaming. By not licensing Physx AMD is not helping to push Physx forward, but I don't know that we can say that Physx is necessarily good for PC gaming.

Sorry to interrupt.

I agree with the above. There is no need for AMD to follow Nvidia with PhysX. I will be very happy if AMD have something proprietary to AMD user. Unfortunately, they don't.

You somehow believe that TWIMTBP = PhysX. That is not the case. TWIMTBP is a program that can be applied by game developers. Once applied and approved, Nvidia will send hardwares out so the developers can develop on the given hardwares. Also TWIMTBP program will send out engineers to aid the development if needed. You may say it as "use our proprietary physX and we will send some engineers to help you." Having said that, PhysX does run on PCs without having Nvidia parts in it. It will run on both Intel and AMD CPUs. It however won't run on non-Nvidia video cards.

All game developers want more in their game with least effort. There exists some templates code in PhysX which game developers can use. This is my guess as most PhysX games have flying papers and/or leafs. By using these templates Nvidia is willing to test developers code at Nvidia's Lab. What will you do if you are the game developer?

Those engineers are like cheat notes, they know tricks new game developers don't know. They can save lots of time for developers from reinventing wheels. Yes, whatever they do may be bias to Nvidia, but can you blame them? They do work for Nvidia. The question is, AMD should have a similar program to counter Nvidia, so game developer have options. Right now, they don't have options but to use flying papers. I honestly hope "Game Evolve" does something in this area in the future. Currently, TWIMTBP trumps all over programs offered by other companies. That means most games featuring TWIMTBP than any other programs.

 

[happy medium]

I had read posts from a few of the pro-Nvidia guys that gamers don't 'need' that much horsepower, the GTX2xx cards are plenty for current games.

I was one of those guys. I'm gonna be the first to say it again. Normal gamers today at normal resolutions (1600x1050 is the most widely used) will not need a higher end 6000 series cards or a gtx480 unless they are running a gtx260 or below. Besides a few games this year, nothing has really pushed the hardware.
A overclocked gtx 460 or 5850 will run 95% of the game out there with high detail.

I have 37 games on my harddrive and only a chosen few have I lowered the detail with to get playable framerates @ 1600x1200 with my overclocked 5750 (more like a 5770).

Games that push the hardware and video card companies that create pc games better then consoles, I'm all for. Really now guys , what games does a overclocked 5850 or gtx460 not play with high detail at normal resolutions 1650x1050 or 1080p?
I know there is a few but very few out of the hundreds of games released.
Come on Crysis 2. I need a good reason to upgrade.

Edi: I just heard Dead Rising 2 is better on PC then xbox, gonna grab it now. only 40 bucks.
http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=2108793
Thats what we need games that run better then a x-box 360 AND I believe thats what the TWIMTBP program is all about! Nothing wrong with that. Amen!

 

[busydude]

Thats what we need games that run better then a x-box 360 AND I believe thats what the TWIMTBP program is all about! Nothing wrong with that. Amen!

Well, I am sure all the cross platform games perform better on PC when compared to a console, I don't think its a Nvidia specific trait.

 

[0roo0roo]

considering the bs naming schemes helping stores to rip off customers nvidia doesn't help one bit. as an example a 9600gso could literally have half the stream processors and still retain the same name...never mind memory bandwidth etc. adding confusion into the market helps no one.

 

[happy medium]

Well, I am sure all the cross platform games perform better on PC when compared to a console, I don't think its a Nvidia specific trait.

hey, but at least they are trying, right. God help them and AMD too.
Anyone who helps me play better games then these drab console ports, I'm behind 100% and so should all you guys. Thats what I'm saying.

I paid for a direct x 11 card and I want all the direct x 11 features, not some half ass tessalation/physx/direct x 9 + crap. Innovation! Not just Nvidia but both companies. AMD needs to get on the ball and help, and stop giving excuses why there not.

 

[happy medium]

considering the bs naming schemes helping stores to rip off customers nvidia doesn't help one bit. as an example a 9600gso could literally have half the stream processors and still retain the same name...never mind memory bandwidth etc. adding confusion into the market helps no one.

So you think that the TWIMTBP program names video cards?
I'm lost with this post, help me.