Thousands flee US Drone attacks

[palehorse]

Originally posted by: Lemon law
No, I am pointing out YOU whole heartily embrace a failed strategy that is failing and failing badly, and worse yet endorse a strategy that will fail even worse.

That's complete bullshit. I've told you 1000+ times that I do not believe the strategies we're using are effective enough or correct. In fact, I've spelled out my own personal suggestions 1000+ times as well, and they go way beyond the failing policies and strategies of the last eight-plus years...

That alone should tell you that kill kill kill is not often the answer.

My own ideas have never focused solely on a "kill kill kill" strategy. Killing the enemy wherever he sleeps; or, rather, increasing our operations against his safe havens and bases of operation, is only one aspect of what I envision as a multi-pronged solution involving political reconciliation, drug eradication, the elimination of corruption at all levels, and a dramatic increase in money spent on their infrastructure, education, and other ways of improving the effectiveness of the central governments in Kabul and Islamabad. Each and every aspect must be addressed simultaneously, with an equal distribution of resources and effort to tackle each of them.

You know that; but, you ignore that.

It's almost as though you're sticking your fingers in your ears and shouting "LALALALALALALA I CANT HEARRRR YOOUUUU"

That's why you're a fucking clown, and your opinions, and lies, are shit.

 

[Lemon law]

Now palehorse goes off deep end with, "It's almost as though you're sticking your fingers in your ears and shouting "LALALALALALALA I CANT HEARRRR YOOUUUU"


I hear you palehorse, I know exactly what you are advocating, you have made it abundantly clear, and not only are your ideas wrong, the problem is and remains, your lack of positive results are the problem. I know exactly what you are advocating, I just happen to believe its exactly the wrong thing to do. And when the only results you have brought is failure, failure, and more failure, I would think you would at least be more open to questioning your own assumptions. You may think your way is the only right way, but if 200 million people around you reject your being pigheaded, what you think matters little.
At the end of the day, Nato is only a salesman of a better way. And when your we will shoot you or else salemanship just alienate exactly those people you need to win over, you can start to understand why you are failing.

That is that old definition of insanity, palehorse, you keep trying the same tactics and expect a different result? After eight years, that is nothing short of a leaning disability.

 

[blackangst1]

This thread is now about how AT needs a flame forum

 

[EagleKeeper]

If his ideas are wrong, then where can you show a working alternative.

Dialog with the Taliban ahs not worked for Pakistan.

Areas that are under Taliban control still have the same problems that existed before we went in.

 

[palehorse]

Originally posted by: Lemon law
I hear you palehorse, I know exactly what you are advocating, you have made it abundantly clear, and not only are your ideas wrong, the problem is and remains, your lack of positive results are the problem.

1. motherfucker, my personal suggestions for a winning strategy in Afghanistan have never even been tried!

I know exactly what you are advocating, I just happen to believe its exactly the wrong thing to do.

2. Please, in your own words, explain everything you think I am advocating.

And when the only results you have brought is failure, failure, and more failure, I would think you would at least be more open to questioning your own assumptions.

3. See #1.

That is that old definition of insanity, palehorse, you keep trying the same tactics and expect a different result? After eight years, that is nothing short of a leaning disability.

4. See #1.

As always, you've ignored at least 75% of what I've written. You continue to focus on my interest in increasing military operations against their havens and bases, but you're ignoring everything else I list as "prongs" that must be conducted simultaneously, and with just as much vigor. That is the part that has earned you the title of "clown," because everyone else here can see that my own personal proposals go wayyyy beyond the failed "kill kill kill" strategy you continue to use to misrepresent my beliefs.

Pull your g'damn fingers out of your ears and READ son! Your response to #2 above will be telling...

 

[rudder]

Originally posted by: Lemon law
Would we tolerate the use of these drones on US citizens on US soil? If not, stop their use over there yesterday.

I would definitely uninstall bit torrent!

Thankfully here we have an infrastructure available where we do not need to rely on drones.

 

[Lemon law]

Originally posted by: Common Courtesy
If his ideas are wrong, then where can you show a working alternative.

Dialog with the Taliban ahs not worked for Pakistan.

Areas that are under Taliban control still have the same problems that existed before we went in.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Fair enough question Common Courtesy even though I have covered it before.

1. We need to stay the hell out of Pakistan and Pakistani affairs period. The Taliban or Al-Quida in Pakistan are a Pakistani problem. And at the end of the day, Pakistan has a better track record at stopping both than Nato anyway.

2. We need to lock the border between Pakistan and Afghanistan up. Clear cutting all cover and making sure no cross border traffic is possible except through checkpoints. Remote sensors can detect any sneaking past, let them well into Afghanistan and ambush any Al-Quida and taliban that try, but make sure its on the Afghan side.

3. Then Nato can start to do what it should have done from the start, give the Northern alliance and the corruption they brought the boot. Start building things, get the courts working, deliver the Afghan people a working government they will be proud of, and the Taliban will be defeated without firing a shot. Start at Kabul and build outward, in a war of ideas, the Taliban can offer nothing.

 

[OCGuy]

Originally posted by: Lemon law

Originally posted by: Common Courtesy
If his ideas are wrong, then where can you show a working alternative.

Dialog with the Taliban ahs not worked for Pakistan.

Areas that are under Taliban control still have the same problems that existed before we went in.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Fair enough question Common Courtesy even though I have covered it before.

1. We need to stay the hell out of Pakistan and Pakistani affairs period. The Taliban or Al-Quida in Pakistan are a Pakistani problem. And at the end of the day, Pakistan has a better track record at stopping both than Nato anyway.

2. We need to lock the border between Pakistan and Afghanistan up. Clear cutting all cover and making sure no cross border traffic is possible except through checkpoints. Remote sensors can detect any sneaking past, let them well into Afghanistan and ambush any Al-Quida and taliban that try, but make sure its on the Afghan side.

3. Then Nato can start to do what it should have done from the start, give the Northern alliance and the corruption they brought the boot. Start building things, get the courts working, deliver the Afghan people a working government they will be proud of, and the Taliban will be defeated without firing a shot. Start at Kabul and build outward, in a war of ideas, the Taliban can offer nothing.

I would say not only is #2 wishful thinking, I would say it is downright impossible. Our Mountain Division is the best in the world, but that is some f*cked up terrain.

 

[The Green Bean]

I think the Pakistani army needs to make it clear than these drones will be shot down. We have so many enemies. The last thing we need is the USA meddling in our INTERNAL affairs. Having said that each of the Taliban needs to be shot that. Just when the government is about to get support to go against the Taliban the USA comes and screws it up. IDIOTS!

 

[cubeless]

Originally posted by: Lemon law

Originally posted by: Common Courtesy
If his ideas are wrong, then where can you show a working alternative.

Dialog with the Taliban ahs not worked for Pakistan.

Areas that are under Taliban control still have the same problems that existed before we went in.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Fair enough question Common Courtesy even though I have covered it before.

1. We need to stay the hell out of Pakistan and Pakistani affairs period. The Taliban or Al-Quida in Pakistan are a Pakistani problem. And at the end of the day, Pakistan has a better track record at stopping both than Nato anyway.

2. We need to lock the border between Pakistan and Afghanistan up. Clear cutting all cover and making sure no cross border traffic is possible except through checkpoints. Remote sensors can detect any sneaking past, let them well into Afghanistan and ambush any Al-Quida and taliban that try, but make sure its on the Afghan side.

3. Then Nato can start to do what it should have done from the start, give the Northern alliance and the corruption they brought the boot. Start building things, get the courts working, deliver the Afghan people a working government they will be proud of, and the Taliban will be defeated without firing a shot. Start at Kabul and build outward, in a war of ideas, the Taliban can offer nothing.

classic: let the beloved patriot's take care of beloved patriot and WE lock their border...

you don't get it both ways...

can we use drones to 'lock' the border? or do we have to let our soldiers get picked off sitting around on the border while the tali just grows their control to satisfy your delusions?

and you seem to have missed that the tali blew up a whole lot of the 'building things' that we've already done... if we "don't fire a shot" then they will get a fast path because they are more than happy to shoot...

your scenarios are delusional...

 

[miketheidiot]

Originally posted by: retrospooty

Originally posted by: OCguy

The only problem is for the people who call Bush a war criminal. Striking a soverign nation and killing civilians, without being at war, is on the wrong side of international law. And as of now, it is Obama doing it. 13 killed yesterday.

Who (other than nutjob's like Harvey) call Bush a war criminal? I call him doofus, and inept and the worst pres. ever... but not a war criminal.

I totally agree with what Bush did at first in Afganistan - THAT is where Al Qaeda is. The ONLY thing Bush did wrong was divert our military to Iraq, which had zero to do with 9/11. Glad Obama is going back to where we should have been concentrating on all along.

i think war crimes are quite a stretch, but then again we don't know everything.

 

[The Green Bean]

Originally posted by: cubeless

Originally posted by: Lemon law

Originally posted by: Common Courtesy
If his ideas are wrong, then where can you show a working alternative.

Dialog with the Taliban ahs not worked for Pakistan.

Areas that are under Taliban control still have the same problems that existed before we went in.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Fair enough question Common Courtesy even though I have covered it before.

1. We need to stay the hell out of Pakistan and Pakistani affairs period. The Taliban or Al-Quida in Pakistan are a Pakistani problem. And at the end of the day, Pakistan has a better track record at stopping both than Nato anyway.

2. We need to lock the border between Pakistan and Afghanistan up. Clear cutting all cover and making sure no cross border traffic is possible except through checkpoints. Remote sensors can detect any sneaking past, let them well into Afghanistan and ambush any Al-Quida and taliban that try, but make sure its on the Afghan side.

3. Then Nato can start to do what it should have done from the start, give the Northern alliance and the corruption they brought the boot. Start building things, get the courts working, deliver the Afghan people a working government they will be proud of, and the Taliban will be defeated without firing a shot. Start at Kabul and build outward, in a war of ideas, the Taliban can offer nothing.

classic: let the beloved patriot's take care of beloved patriot and WE lock their border...

you don't get it both ways...

can we use drones to 'lock' the border? or do we have to let our soldiers get picked off sitting around on the border while the tali just grows their control to satisfy your delusions?

and you seem to have missed that the tali blew up a whole lot of the 'building things' that we've already done... if we "don't fire a shot" then they will get a fast path because they are more than happy to shoot...

your scenarios are delusional...

How about your drones pinpoint the locations and let our commandos go in and do the job to minimize civilians casualties?

 

[miketheidiot]

Originally posted by: The Green Bean
I think the Pakistani army needs to make it clear than these drones will be shot down. We have so many enemies. The last thing we need is the USA meddling in our INTERNAL affairs. Having said that each of the Taliban needs to be shot that. Just when the government is about to get support to go against the Taliban the USA comes and screws it up. IDIOTS!

you are pakistani iirc?

for one thing i don't think that pakistan has the capability to shoot these down, second i'm under the impression that there is at least some coordination or cooperation going on.

 

[OCGuy]

Originally posted by: The Green Bean


How about your drones pinpoint the locations and let our commandos go in and do the job to minimize civilians casualties?

Your ISI feeds us intelligence. Why dont you guys act on it before we do? Why wait for us?

Oh yea, your government is too busy striking deals with the cave-dwellers. So in order to save face with the population, they keep them in the dark by not telling them that they not only base US predator drones on beloved patriot soil, but obviously there are US personnel there with them.

We are lucky we get anything from the Pakis at all without it being leaked to the warlords ahead of time, to be honest.

 

[The Green Bean]

Originally posted by: miketheidiot

Originally posted by: The Green Bean
I think the Pakistani army needs to make it clear than these drones will be shot down. We have so many enemies. The last thing we need is the USA meddling in our INTERNAL affairs. Having said that each of the Taliban needs to be shot that. Just when the government is about to get support to go against the Taliban the USA comes and screws it up. IDIOTS!

you are pakistani iirc?

for one thing i don't think that pakistan has the capability to shoot these down, second i'm under the impression that there is at least some coordination or cooperation going on.

Obviously! If we say no, America is a tyrant. We can't afford to be bullied. There aren't too many air forces in the world that can't shoot down an unmanned drone. Even if the USA genuinely want to help the way they are doing is now way to do so! Oh well when we vote for a traitor that's what happens.

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

Originally posted by: Lemon law

Originally posted by: JohnOfSheffield

Originally posted by: OCguy
According to Pakistani officials, the attacks have increased since Obama took office, with 81 dead. I am glad to see Obama is keeping the heat on these guys, and not being your stereotypical liberal dove.

The only problem is for the people who call Bush a war criminal. Striking a soverign nation and killing civilians, without being at war, is on the wrong side of international law. And as of now, it is Obama doing it. 13 killed yesterday.


http://www.timesonline.co.uk/t...ast/article6036512.ece

Direct strikes against compounds, 0 innocent deaths.

I'd say this is going pretty well. It's almost as if someone actually had had a pinpoint on locations instead of random bombings.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
That has to be a gross distortion of reality, unless one defines all Pakistani residents as automatically guilty, regardless of age or sex.

And besides that, its a good part of the reason that Nato now occupies a moral standing below the Taliban in the tribal areas of Pakistan. Its quite a feat, but with an attitude like JOS's, its actually possible to manage.

Yeah, i'm SURE you know more about this than i do.

Either that or you're a fucking idiot who can't understand information as directly given to you.

I've already explained this to you more than five times but YOU ARE FUCKED UP IN THE HEAD. A sick little fucker who deserves nothing but the same contempt you show for the troops on the ground.

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

Originally posted by: The Green Bean

Originally posted by: cubeless

Originally posted by: Lemon law

Originally posted by: Common Courtesy
If his ideas are wrong, then where can you show a working alternative.

Dialog with the Taliban ahs not worked for Pakistan.

Areas that are under Taliban control still have the same problems that existed before we went in.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Fair enough question Common Courtesy even though I have covered it before.

1. We need to stay the hell out of Pakistan and Pakistani affairs period. The Taliban or Al-Quida in Pakistan are a Pakistani problem. And at the end of the day, Pakistan has a better track record at stopping both than Nato anyway.

2. We need to lock the border between Pakistan and Afghanistan up. Clear cutting all cover and making sure no cross border traffic is possible except through checkpoints. Remote sensors can detect any sneaking past, let them well into Afghanistan and ambush any Al-Quida and taliban that try, but make sure its on the Afghan side.

3. Then Nato can start to do what it should have done from the start, give the Northern alliance and the corruption they brought the boot. Start building things, get the courts working, deliver the Afghan people a working government they will be proud of, and the Taliban will be defeated without firing a shot. Start at Kabul and build outward, in a war of ideas, the Taliban can offer nothing.

classic: let the beloved patriot's take care of beloved patriot and WE lock their border...

you don't get it both ways...

can we use drones to 'lock' the border? or do we have to let our soldiers get picked off sitting around on the border while the tali just grows their control to satisfy your delusions?

and you seem to have missed that the tali blew up a whole lot of the 'building things' that we've already done... if we "don't fire a shot" then they will get a fast path because they are more than happy to shoot...

your scenarios are delusional...

How about your drones pinpoint the locations and let our commandos go in and do the job to minimize civilians casualties?

Yeah our 0% civilian casualties since there have been troops inside of Pakistan is TOO HIGH.

Right?

We've had this discussion before and you ended up agreeing with me, how come you suddenly feel ok repreating things you KNOW are lies?

You've even claimed that you'd rather have the Talibans run your nation, in which case you would be off the net immediatly, all businesses would shut down and your women are Taliban property, especially the pre pubescent ones.

 

[OCGuy]

Originally posted by: JohnOfSheffield

I've already explained this to you more than five times but YOU ARE FUCKED UP IN THE HEAD. A sick little fucker who deserves nothing but the same contempt you show for the troops on the ground.

Actually I am going to side with Lemon Law on this one.

According to Pakis, there were civilians present. And after every other strike, we hear about some women and children being around. Unless you have proof otherwise, you are just a talking mouthpiece that has been discredited more than once.


Just because you are "there", doesnt mean that the CIA sits you down after a predator strike and goes over the post-mission analysis with you to show you who was killed and who wasnt.

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

Originally posted by: dphantom

Originally posted by: JohnOfSheffield

Originally posted by: OCguy
According to Pakistani officials, the attacks have increased since Obama took office, with 81 dead. I am glad to see Obama is keeping the heat on these guys, and not being your stereotypical liberal dove.

The only problem is for the people who call Bush a war criminal. Striking a soverign nation and killing civilians, without being at war, is on the wrong side of international law. And as of now, it is Obama doing it. 13 killed yesterday.


http://www.timesonline.co.uk/t...ast/article6036512.ece

Direct strikes against compounds, 0 innocent deaths.

I'd say this is going pretty well. It's almost as if someone actually had had a pinpoint on locations instead of random bombings.

Almost as if there are eyes on the ground.

Yeah, isn't that strange sir.

 

[Lemon law]

No, the palehorse complaint is the Taliban gets their R&R in Pakistan. If the border is locked down, its no advantage for the Taliban, and very doable because the terrain is screwed up for everyone. But we can fly and they can't, remote sensor can detect movement, and we can vector in jets before any trespassers can reach cover.

The palehorse delusion is that Nato is strong enough to control both Afghanistan and the tribal areas of Pakistan while admitting Nato is so weak it can't even control one side of the border. And even if the border is a little porous, its not the requirement of my plan, my plan is to offer the Afghan people a government that works, and if we start small and build outward, we have the troops to prevent Al-Quida and Taliban sabotage. Then let the Afghan people choose which they want. If the Taliban wants to start the violence it will be bad PR for them, our problem is that Nato starts the violence and its bad PR for Nato.

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

Originally posted by: OCguy

Originally posted by: JohnOfSheffield

I've already explained this to you more than five times but YOU ARE FUCKED UP IN THE HEAD. A sick little fucker who deserves nothing but the same contempt you show for the troops on the ground.

Actually I am going to side with Lemon Law on this one.

According to Pakis, there were civilians present. And after every other strike, we hear about some women and children being around. Unless you have proof otherwise, you are just a talking mouthpiece that has been discredited more than once.

I expect nothing less from you than to automatically disagree with me, you ALWAYS do exactly that.

And in a word... NO, not even one official has claimed innocents deaths in the last three months, it could have something to do with pinpointed missiles but what do i know? I'll leave such judgement up to the experts like you and Lemon Law.

 

[cubeless]

Originally posted by: OCguy

Originally posted by: The Green Bean


How about your drones pinpoint the locations and let our commandos go in and do the job to minimize civilians casualties?

Your ISI feeds us intelligence. Why dont you guys act on it before we do? Why wait for us?

Oh yea, your government is too busy striking deals with the cave-dwellers. So in order to save face with the population, they keep them in the dark by not telling them that they not only base US predator drones on beloved patriot soil, but obviously there are US personnel there with them.

We are lucky we get anything from the Pakis at all without it being leaked to the warlords ahead of time, to be honest.

sadly this is probably true... like sunday's doonsbury, whomever we are buddies with at the moment controls the intelligence...

and if we keep going into these ratholes physically we are going to take more casualties, and us taking less casualties is more important than them taking less casualties i'm sorry to say...

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

Originally posted by: Lemon law
No, the palehorse complaint is the Taliban gets their R&R in Pakistan. If the border is locked down, its no advantage for the Taliban, and very doable because the terrain is screwed up for everyone. But we can fly and they can't, remote sensor can detect movement, and we can vector in jets before any trespassers can reach cover.

The palehorse delusion is that Nato is strong enough to control both Afghanistan and the tribal areas of Pakistan while admitting Nato is so weak it can't even control one side of the border. And even if the border is a little porous, its not the requirement of my plan, my plan is to offer the Afghan people a government that works, and if we start small and build outward, we have the troops to prevent Al-Quida and Taliban sabotage. Then let the Afghan people choose which they want. If the Taliban wants to start the violence it will be bad PR for them, our problem is that Nato starts the violence and its bad PR for Nato.

You don't have the faintest clue what you are talking about, we'd need many millions of men to control the border and it would still be fairly unsuccessful since it's not the only border.

Please just shut the fuck up.

 

[Lemon law]

As JOS says "A proud and youthful chevalier,
A highland lion of cheerful mien,
A slashing blade, a flashing shield,
Fighting foremost in the field. "

I can't help but wonder if that is how the Nazi SS pictured themselves. Or maybe George Armstrong Custard. The point being, when it does not fit the facts and the local population does not share the JOS delusion, good thing don't often follow.

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

Originally posted by: Lemon law
As JOS says "A proud and youthful chevalier,
A highland lion of cheerful mien,
A slashing blade, a flashing shield,
Fighting foremost in the field. "

I can't help but wonder if that is how the Nazi SS pictured themselves. Or maybe George Armstrong Custard. The point being, when it does not fit the facts and the local population does not share the JOS delusion, good thing don't often follow.

You're comparing us to the Nazis?

I didn't think anyone would ever sink as low as that but it's obvious that men with no pride and no honor will say and do anything to further their retarded opinions, you are the evidence.

I got that from "Mo ghile mear" a Highland song that fits me because i am originally from the highlands.

I KNOW for certain that no innocents were killed in the last months bombings, 100% certain of it but of course, i'm not an expert like you and know very little since you guys have your thinking hats snugly fitted to your heads and earned the right to call troops defending the civilian population Nazis.

Next up, OCguy agreeing that NATO troops are actually Nazis...