Thoughts on Affirmative Action??

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DCal430

Diamond Member
Feb 12, 2011
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My statements weren't an argument for Affirmative Action, thanks.

I was arguing the point that going to High School doesn't give you a shot at College...not for everybody. Detroit is a prime example, yes, its run by Blacks who ran the city into the ground..but its also full of kids who don't have good schools to go to, MOST of the High Schools in Detroit are "Dropout Factories". These kids aren't getting the resources to excel in school. The other shame is that in order to get a fair chance at learning and making it to college, you only have 3 high schools in Detroit to choose from. Obviously, everyone can't go there. The city pours most of their money into these 3 schools, over the past 6 years..all 3 of these schools have gotten newer, bigger facilities, better teachers, etc. Meanwhile, tumbleweed rolls through the hallways of other schools.

I never said Affirmative Action was the answer to anything. Actually, I never said it was a good thing either. I am just highlighting the fact that this whole "Everyone has a fair chance during secondary education" is BS.



How does a HS aged child reach for an opportunity that is not there for them? They go to a shitty school in a poor area. Its not like they can pack up and move out to the burbs to find a better school.

The parents them self must have some responsibility for the high drop out rate, and even the child too. While the system it self is to blame no doubt, everyone else is not without blame.
 

waggy

No Lifer
Dec 14, 2000
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The parents them self must have some responsibility for the high drop out rate, and even the child too. While the system it self is to blame no doubt, everyone else is not without blame.

agree 100%

Parent, student and School are all needed for a great education.

A parent is needed to push the child, to make sure the attend school, to help with the homework if they can, and overall to set a good example.
 

SheHateMe

Diamond Member
Jul 21, 2012
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The parents them self must have some responsibility for the high drop out rate, and even the child too. While the system it self is to blame no doubt, everyone else is not without blame.

So, are you assuming that parents in Detroit have never complained about the low quality of schools available to their kids or that the kids themselves just don't want to learn so its their fault too? There are a lot of parents (despite what the news tells you) that are there for their kids in Detroit, some of them go up to the school and try to help out, make sure their kids do homework...there are a lot of teachers who care too. The problem is, the school board doesnt care, so what is there to do?

You guys are very disillusioned. Its fine though, everything seems so simple to solve on the outside looking in.
 

DCal430

Diamond Member
Feb 12, 2011
6,020
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So, are you assuming that parents in Detroit have never complained about the low quality of schools available to their kids or that the kids themselves just don't want to learn so its their fault too? There are a lot of parents (despite what the news tells you) that are there for their kids in Detroit, some of them go up to the school and try to help out, make sure their kids do homework...there are a lot of teachers who care too. The problem is, the school board doesnt care, so what is there to do?

You guys are very disillusioned. Its fine though, everything seems so simple to solve on the outside looking in.

I am a minority who grew up in the ghetto, not Detroit ghetto but still a ghetto in California. I know what bad schools are like, many parents just do not care if their child isn't doing good, the teacher call and complains that the child isn't showing up, and the parents say it isn't their problem. Kids who make up one excuse after another why they are failing. Their are library everywhere even in Detroit, full of books to learn. Any child can go to a library and learn.
 

DucatiMonster696

Diamond Member
Aug 13, 2009
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The problems facing many schools and school district are systemic issues with the entire system itself in regards to public education in the US and how it is administered to meet the needs of the individual student. Along with the varying conflicting self-interests which permeate throughout the system in which many hands are often grasping at resources and money before it even reaches the classroom.

Meanwhile mandates are dictated from way up on high the political mountaintop and often times these mandates are too broad and generalized to actually addressed the individual concerns and needs found in individual schools in differing communities. Furthermore autonomy for schools to act and fulfill the needs of their clients has long ago been subordinated to the authority of district officials, state officials, and federal officials who are very much out of touch with the local needs of a individual school, let alone individual students attending said school.

Even when sound solutions are offered they then come into conflict with entities like teachers unions who seek to cement the position of their own members over the needs of the students. So in the end no amount of money poured into the system will ever solve the issues faced by public schools and they will always offer up sub-par experiences compared to alternative options, i.e. private schools, charter schools, etc.
 
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Sonikku

Lifer
Jun 23, 2005
15,749
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My thoughts on affirmative action is it needs to be outlawed. Once I applied for a 6 figure job that quite honestly, was beneath me. But being the highly generous and considerate person I am, I figured I would grace them with my presence. After applying however, I never heard back from the hiring manager.

He never actually said it, but deep down I knew affirmative action was to blame.
 

Svnla

Lifer
Nov 10, 2003
17,999
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The opportunities are there to be reached for.

If a person chooses to not reach for them, it is their fault, not someone else's.

Now the naysayers are panicking because they are being proved wrong, that blacks can advance on their own, the opportunity exists.

Parental responsibility to advance the child does not depend on race. It depends on the patent and/or child. If they choose to fail because it is easier, they will. No drive. A fault of their own attitude. Their responsibility for the failure.

I very much agree with your whole post but only quote the parts that I think MOST important.

Poor SE Asian students did very well in school and they went to public school systems. They were very much poor or penniless when they arrived in the US, therefore, they went to the same public school systems similar as blacks. They did not go to rich private schools. Yet, they (or most Asian students - see link above by me of PBS Frontline) are doing very well in school - 92% vs. 65% are astounding absurb. Maybe because they went to school to learn and not to gang up to beat up weaker students like street thugs. Maybe they went to the library after school to learn more instead of beat up bus driver. And so on.

Again, still no taker of my post about CURRENT widespread and publicly promote/tolerate discrimination against blacks? Anyone? **crickets**
 
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SheHateMe

Diamond Member
Jul 21, 2012
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I am a minority who grew up in the ghetto, not Detroit ghetto but still a ghetto in California. I know what bad schools are like, many parents just do not care if their child isn't doing good, the teacher call and complains that the child isn't showing up, and the parents say it isn't their problem. Kids who make up one excuse after another why they are failing. Their are library everywhere even in Detroit, full of books to learn. Any child can go to a library and learn.

Have you ever been to Detroit?

My thoughts on affirmative action is it needs to be outlawed. Once I applied for a 6 figure job that quite honestly, was beneath me. But being the highly generous and considerate person I am, I figured I would grace them with my presence. After applying however, I never heard back from the hiring manager.

He never actually said it, but deep down I knew affirmative action was to blame.


Its not uncommon for an employer to not hire somebody that is over-qualified for a job. Why? Because there is no guarantee you will stay. My mother has applied for jobs before where they told her in the interview that they felt she was too qualified for the job and that 1) They couldn't offer her a salary she was used to and 2) They wanted someone they knew would stay.

There is also that pre-convinced notion that you would just use the job as leverage until you get another job.
 
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DCal430

Diamond Member
Feb 12, 2011
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Have you ever been to Detroit?




Its not uncommon for an employer to not hired somebody that is over-qualified for a job. Why? Because there is no guarantee you will stay.

No I haven't. But I have heard it has some issues, high poverty, high unemployment, lots of crime, and what not.
 

SheHateMe

Diamond Member
Jul 21, 2012
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No I haven't. But I have heard it has some issues, high poverty, high unemployment, lots of crime, and what not.

So you haven't actually gone to school in Detroit. Okay.

Growing up in the Ghetto in California doesn't mean it would be the same as growing up in the Ghetto in Detroit.

Therefore, I wouldn't tell somebody from Baltimore that I know what its like to live there just because I've been to Detroit.

Also, it would be safe not to generalize what parents in poor areas are like. There are parents that care and parents that don't...you know, just like in more affluent neighborhoods.
 
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EagleKeeper

Discussion Club Moderator<br>Elite Member
Staff member
Oct 30, 2000
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So, are you assuming that parents in Detroit have never complained about the low quality of schools available to their kids or that the kids themselves just don't want to learn so its their fault too? There are a lot of parents (despite what the news tells you) that are there for their kids in Detroit, some of them go up to the school and try to help out, make sure their kids do homework...there are a lot of teachers who care too. The problem is, the school board doesnt care, so what is there to do?

You guys are very disillusioned. Its fine though, everything seems so simple to solve on the outside looking in.

School board is elected. Goes back to public caring on the quality of school system.
 

MixMasterTang

Diamond Member
Jul 23, 2001
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School board is elected. Goes back to public caring on the quality of school system.

So if 49% of people care and 51% don't we should just be okay with those 49% being stuck in a crap situation because that's what democracy says we should do?
 

xj0hnx

Diamond Member
Dec 18, 2007
9,262
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So you haven't actually gone to school in Detroit. Okay.

Growing up in the Ghetto in California doesn't mean it would be the same as growing up in the Ghetto in Detroit.

Therefore, I wouldn't tell somebody from Baltimore that I know what its like to live there just because I've been to Detroit.

Also, it would be safe not to generalize what parents in poor areas are like. There are parents that care and parents that don't...you know, just like in more affluent neighborhoods.

I been all over the world, both touring with my band, a friends band, and in the military, one thing I can tell you, poor is poor. Black poor in Detroit is no worse than white poor in Alabama, than is brown poor in LA. And no one in America can touch poor in Bulgaria.
 

SheHateMe

Diamond Member
Jul 21, 2012
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I been all over the world, both touring with my band, a friends band, and in the military, one thing I can tell you, poor is poor. Black poor in Detroit is no worse than white poor in Alabama, than is brown poor in LA. And no one in America can touch poor in Bulgaria.

Yes, poor is poor..but that does not mean the experience is the same. He claimed to know how parents think in Detroit because he grew up in a ghetto in California. You can't generalize people just because they share the same financial situation.
 

EagleKeeper

Discussion Club Moderator<br>Elite Member
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Oct 30, 2000
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So if 49% of people care and 51% don't we should just be okay with those 49% being stuck in a crap situation because that's what democracy says we should do?
Then the 49% need to work harder to get the bad apples removed.

If they can not do so; then they need to take matters in their own hands and educate the children themselves.

The resources exist if needed; it may take some effort to utilize them; is a child's future worth that effort?
 

SheHateMe

Diamond Member
Jul 21, 2012
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Then the 49% need to work harder to get the bad apples removed.

If they can not do so; then they need to take matters in their own hands and educate the children themselves.

The resources exist if needed; it may take some effort to utilize them; is a child's future worth that effort?

What resources do you suggest poor kids use to "educate" themselves.

More specifically, what resources can they use when they have been crippled intellectually since say...Kindergarten. A lot of children in poor area cannot read or write...but of course, they can homeschool themselves as you say. There are tons of libraries around and they can just pick up the books with the most pictures. :oops:

Where are you from?
 

waggy

No Lifer
Dec 14, 2000
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you right. why take responsibility for something? excuses and handouts work so much better..
 

SheHateMe

Diamond Member
Jul 21, 2012
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you right. why take responsibility for something? excuses and handouts work so much better..

Sure, if that's the only intelligent argument you want to bring to the situation.

Once again, nobody said anything about handouts.
 

xj0hnx

Diamond Member
Dec 18, 2007
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Yes, poor is poor..but that does not mean the experience is the same. He claimed to know how parents think in Detroit because he grew up in a ghetto in California. You can't generalize people just because they share the same financial situation.

Individual experiences don't matter, they only offer an excuse. Being poor, is being poor, using race and things that happened a hundred and fifty years ago is just rationalizing an excuse.
 

SheHateMe

Diamond Member
Jul 21, 2012
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Individual experiences don't matter, they only offer an excuse. Being poor, is being poor, using race and things that happened a hundred and fifty years ago is just rationalizing an excuse.

Right and when did I ever say either of those were excuses? Did I ever mention race? Nope. Did I say something about Slavery or whatever you're talking about being an excuse. Never.

Don't put words in my mouth. You sound like that other guy right now.
 

EagleKeeper

Discussion Club Moderator<br>Elite Member
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Oct 30, 2000
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What resources do you suggest poor kids use to "educate" themselves.

More specifically, what resources can they use when they have been crippled intellectually since say...Kindergarten. A lot of children in poor area cannot read or write...but of course, they can homeschool themselves as you say. There are tons of libraries around and they can just pick up the books with the most pictures. :oops:

Where are you from?

Is there such a thing as a library in the City of Detroit or surrounding cities?

To save you the research:

There are 21 branches and a main library.

At least 4 are decent; I have been in them within past two years.

A child can go there for additional learning. Most also have additional community learning programs.

If a child can not read/write by start of middle school, it is the parents' fault.

A child that can read/write can have access to resources within the community that can help move forward, if they ask/desire. Again it goes back to attitude and excuses.


You asked about Detroit. I van go into most any urban area and get the same result. Excuses and opportunity. Up to the attitude of the parent and child.

If one child can pull themselves out of the black ghetto, all can. Yes, there are the naysayers within their community that feel that doing so is traitorous, desertion.
Many just do not want to expend the effort for one reason or another. It is not lack of opportunity, it is lack of desire to succeed.
 
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SheHateMe

Diamond Member
Jul 21, 2012
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Is there such a thing as a library on the City of Detroit or surrounding cities.

There are 12 branches and a main library.

A child can go there for additional learning

Learning from who? You keep saying a child that has received a poor education can just go and homeschool themselves. Such a simple solution to everything, huh?

Yes, there are libraries in Detroit..with funding for public programs being in the wind, you would be lucky to find a library in Detroit that still has the same outreach programs they might have had years ago.
 

EagleKeeper

Discussion Club Moderator<br>Elite Member
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Oct 30, 2000
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Learning from who? You keep saying a child that has received a poor education can just go and homeschool themselves. Such a simple solution to everything, huh?

Yes, there are libraries in Detroit..with funding for public programs being in the wind, you would be lucky to find a library in Detroit that still has the same outreach programs they might have had years ago.
A child can decide if they want to move forward or back. Outreach community programs exist. Social organizations, churches, etc.

In fact. I will spend some phone calls this week calling each of the libraries in Detroit and ask about outreach.
 

shortylickens

No Lifer
Jul 15, 2003
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A child can decide if they want to move forward or back. Outreach community programs exist. Social organizations, churches, etc.

In fact. I will spend some phone calls this week calling each of the libraries in Detroit and ask about outreach.

Umm, I have to disagree. Kids dont know what constitutes moving forward or backward. And dont have the wherewithall to execute it.

The big problem is that without proper guidance those kids will grow up to be adult delinquents.