Thought i was getting Marshmallow.

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linkgoron

Platinum Member
Mar 9, 2005
2,598
1,238
136
Hey, guys! I hear that iPhones as far back as 4 years old are all able to download the latest version of the operating system. Isn't that cool?

Yeah, it's always such a great idea:
http://www.theguardian.com/technolo...low-ios-9-update-iphone-4s-iphone-5-iphone-5s

"Videos from vloggers iAppleBytes directly comparing the latest iOS 9.0.1 software to iOS 8.4.1 running on an iPhone 4S, 5 and 5S have also demonstrated a noticeable amount of slowdown with the new update."

Anyway, I disagree with the sentiment that Google is the main culprit. Sony, for example, updated all of its Z-line to 5.1.1, and they will also update the Z2 (and newer) to marshmallow and the Z2 was released just a few months after the Note 3. I think it's also a real possibility that they'll update the Z1(/c) to Marshmallow as it is on the list here http://developer.sonymobile.com/kno...e/open-devices/list-of-devices-and-resources/ although they did not announce it.

I'm not saying that Google has no part in the lack of updates, they've made mistakes with their update policy, but the main culprit is Samsung as they're the ones who are abandoning their old flagships.
 
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poofyhairguy

Lifer
Nov 20, 2005
14,612
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Security should have been a major integral focus in Android development. Google is responsible for the state it is in.

Security updates are different from OS updates. We have seen Samsung push out pure security updates for old devices after Stagefright so the Note 3 might still be covered. You just don't get the new shiny OS features, but that is a different level of complaint.

Most consumers don't care about OS updates. In fact many dislike them because they change things and not always for the better. If you are a person who really cares about updates that is why Google made two Nexuses this year.

I mean, we are talking about the Note three. That means two Notes came before that both got cut off at two years. Samsung had an established track record at that point. You knew what you were getting. If that isn't good enough unlock the device and ROM it.
 
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Red Storm

Lifer
Oct 2, 2005
14,233
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Security updates are different from OS updates. We have seen Samsung push out pure security updates for old devices after Stagefright so the Note 3 might still be covered. You just don't get the new shiny OS features, but that is a different level of complaint.

Most consumers don't care about OS updates. In fact many dislike them because they change things and not always for the better. If you are a person who really cares about updates that is why Google made two Nexuses this year.

I mean, we are talking about the Note three. That means two Notes came before that both got cut off at two years. Samsung had an established track record at that point. You knew what you were getting. If that isn't good enough unlock the device and ROM it.

This. Security updates != OS updates. And getting an OS update doesn't even guarantee you actually get all the features of that update. Even the newly released iPhone 6S doesn't get the standout feature of iOS9 (split screen apps, which the Note line has handled quite well for many years now).

I am surprised at some of the posts in this thread. Or maybe I shouldn't be.
 

CZroe

Lifer
Jun 24, 2001
24,195
857
126
Yeah, it's always such a great idea:
http://www.theguardian.com/technolo...low-ios-9-update-iphone-4s-iphone-5-iphone-5s

"Videos from vloggers iAppleBytes directly comparing the latest iOS 9.0.1 software to iOS 8.4.1 running on an iPhone 4S, 5 and 5S have also demonstrated a noticeable amount of slowdown with the new update."

Anyway, I disagree with the sentiment that Google is the main culprit. Sony, for example, updated all of its Z-line to 5.1.1, and they will also update the Z2 (and newer) to marshmallow and the Z2 was released just a few months after the Note 3. I think it's also a real possibility that they'll update the Z1(/c) to Marshmallow as it is on the list here http://developer.sonymobile.com/kno...e/open-devices/list-of-devices-and-resources/ although they did not announce it.

I'm not saying that Google has no part in the lack of updates, they've made mistakes with their update policy, but the main culprit is Samsung as they're the ones who are abandoning their old flagships.
Existing devices with the same SoC as current popular devices that will get Marshmallow should be just as deserving and should automatically get it, IMO. Platform should be the focus, not the age of specific models.

In other words, if the OnePlus X just got announced with a Snapdragon 801 and Marshmallow on the way, any manufacturer who sold a device with a Snapdragon 800/801 should be ashamed not to support it at least as long as the rest of the market. They should feel the pressure from the market when they are clearly abandoning their device too soon while the market is still using that SoC for new devices.

It's a little ridiculous for any large mainstream phone manufacturer to abandon a high-spec Snapdragon 800-series device when the specs are still decent enough to be used in new desirable models. They should feel that shame as their users refuse to accept that.

But as I said earlier, I've only seen speculation that Samsung isn't going to release Marshmallow on the Note 3, so I'm not all that worked up about it yet. IIRC, Kit-Kat for the Note II was kind of a surprise and wasn't mentioned in the earlier announcements about which devices would get Kit-Kat first. I think history is repeating itself and the Note 3 will get Marshmallow several months late.
 

openwheel

Platinum Member
Apr 30, 2012
2,044
17
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I thought everyone just lease and upgrade to the latest and greatest every 8-12 months?

So who care about updates?

btw, in case anyone wants to reply with twisted panties, I am just being sarcastic.
 

openwheel

Platinum Member
Apr 30, 2012
2,044
17
81
Hey, guys! I hear that iPhones as far back as 4 years old are all able to download the latest version of the operating system. Isn't that cool?

if you like updates that makes your phone slower and sluggish, then yes, it is very cool. :thumbsup:
 

Oyeve

Lifer
Oct 18, 1999
22,066
883
126
Bah, you guys always bitching about security, or lack thereof, in android yet it has never been an issue in the "real" world. sissies.
 

poofyhairguy

Lifer
Nov 20, 2005
14,612
318
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Existing devices with the same SoC as current popular devices that will get Marshmallow should be just as deserving and should automatically get it, IMO. Platform should be the focus, not the age of specific models.

In other words, if the OnePlus X just got announced with a Snapdragon 801 and Marshmallow on the way, any manufacturer who sold a device with a Snapdragon 800/801 should be ashamed not to support it at least as long as the rest of the market. They should feel the pressure from the market when they are clearly abandoning their device too soon while the market is still using that SoC for new devices.

The 801 series was a different generation than the 800. The 801 was 2014, the 800 came out in 2013 with the G2.

I mean I think the 800 is powerful enough to run 6.0, but so is the 600 probably. Samsung has been consistent about two years of upgrade while going past that sometimes (the S3 was updated for 2.5 years).
 

linkgoron

Platinum Member
Mar 9, 2005
2,598
1,238
136
The 801 series was a different generation than the 800. The 801 was 2014, the 800 came out in 2013 with the G2.

I mean I think the 800 is powerful enough to run 6.0, but so is the 600 probably. Samsung has been consistent about two years of upgrade while going past that sometimes (the S3 was updated for 2.5 years).

The international version of the s3 (i9300) was only updated for a year and half though, it's still on 4.3.
 

Platypus

Lifer
Apr 26, 2001
31,046
321
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No it absolutely is Google's fault. They have control and could have and should have mandated update guidelines. Likewise, yes, the carriers fuck things up but again that is Google's fault for letting them do that.

And no Samsung isn't blameless, but Google absolutely could have made this a non-issue years ago but decided they'd rather make Android a total clusterfuck instead.

Plus they've constantly harangued Microsoft over security and yet Android is a total fucking joke in that regard. And we're getting the same bullshit we've gotten with Android updates in general (funny how every other year they say how they've resolved performance and made it smooth?), so anyone expecting there will be anything meaningful actually done to fix this stuff longterm is just delusional at this point. But we'll get a lot of talk about how they totally fixed it with this next major release, just make sure you buy the latest phones so you can enjoy those perks! Until the next update fucks it up again. I'm not an Apple fanboy either, but if it wasn't for them we very probably would not be getting the quality fingerprint sensors (that still took Android what 2 years to get to that level?).

Security should have been a major integral focus in Android development. Google is responsible for the state it is in. Yet we get "no its Samsung's fault!" "no, no it is Verizon/AT&T's!". They're all culpable, but Google needs to take charge and resolve this.

What is also dumb is Microsoft is getting trashed for not playing ball to appease the carriers which would end up putting them in the same position as Google, compromising end user control and security.



I know, especially after I believe Google came out and said they were pushing for devices 3 years old to get the latest version. And several of the OEMs said they were working to make that happen. The Note 3 is barely 2 years old.


You’re not really seeing the full picture here. Google cannot mandate any update guidelines on code they’ve open sourced under the Apache license. The only real power Google has in terms of strong-arming their OEM partners are the Google Apps. The closed source, first party apps like Gmail, Maps, etc. But that’s a threat you can only make once. They can deprive Samsung of usage for example, but then they lose untold fortunes of money by not getting to mine the data from those apps from Samsung users. Samsung already has shitty equivalent applications so they won’t really be THAT harmed.. customers not buying their phones would be the only hit they could take there, and in the end that hit is also shared with Google. So you can see that this is not really a realistic threat.

Google has taken some creative measures starting with Marshmallow in order to mandate specific security guarantees. Yes this is late in the game, but Google has *always* provided security mechanisms that the OEMs straight up ignore. Samsung are the most insecure device you can buy for the most part in almost every market because they have completely wide open, permissive bootloaders. If I have physical access to your device, I can backdoor it in under 23 seconds and completely bypass your full disk encryption. I gave a talk on this at Blackhat USA this year, other conferences world-wide, and will give it again at Blackhat EU next week if you’re interested in the attack.

Android is a very complicated platform that has to support thousands of variations of devices, it’s not surprising that performance and features are going to be harder to pin down and integrate compared to say Apple, who controls literally every aspect of the device, hardware and software. They can’t really compete fairly in that aspect. Android has steadily gotten better, but it’s still a very complex ecosystem with nuanced problems that your absolute statements fall painfully short of describing accurately and realistically.

Security is a huge focus for Android development believe it or not... but the problem is that OEMs fuck up Google code and extend and hack things to the point where they create security bugs that aren't Google's fault. The majority of security flaws in Android that weren’t related to a Linux kernel bug or stagefright (the outlier here) has been because of OEM or carrier customizations that they fucked up. Samsung is the *worst* offender here by far.. they have a new system level compromise seemingly once a month. Again, Google cannot tell an OEM how to use the open source code. They can mandate specific guidelines it must adhere to, but they cannot control the programming practices of another company. It’s unrealistic to even suggest they can and really speaks to a lack of understanding of the problem in my opinion.

Google also cannot control carriers like Apple can. There simply isn’t the insane demand for the product like there was with the iPhone. Verizon was the original carrier that Apple wanted to launch with, but Verizon wouldn’t play ball with them in terms letting Apple control the update process on their network. So Apple just went with AT&T instead, and Verizon lost insane amounts of potential revenue as a result of that… and what do you know? They eventually caved and allowed the device on the network due to the overwhelming popularity of the devices. The problem Google has is, there are dozens upon dozens of variants of Android handsets, not a single one really has the same brand power of the iPhone. Yes, overall sales of Android have surpassed, but not because of any single device you can point to. In the end, Google cannot strong-arm the carriers like Apple was able to, and that certainly isn’t from lack of trying, they just won’t play ball. The other problem is, that wouldn’t even help them. OEMs hack up Android so much that patches from Google are IMPOSSIBLE to apply, the entire framework is different, every aspect of the code has been modified in some way such that ONLY the OEM is capable of applying the source patches to their own code base.. this creates the update nightmare that Android has, and once again Google is not in control of this directly. Once the OEM gets the source update, they have to push out an OTA, which then has to get pushed through the carrier update process as well.

So I guess my point is, yes everyone in this picture is to blame in some way, but Google really doesn’t have the ability to ‘take charge and resolve this’ problem in the manner you’re saying. It’s way more complicated than you are giving it credit for.

Google has taken a lot of strides recently to try to stop the bleeding in terms of security, but it’s a far more complicated operating system with far too many variables for there to be a one-size solution. I definitely agree it’s very late in the game, but Android exploded so fast and was released on so many devices that it became unwieldy very quickly.

In terms of the Note 3 discussion, Samsung is literally the only company here to blame for that not potentially receiving an update (that isn't confirmed anywhere and is basically just hearsay as far as I'm concerned). Point blank.
 

Strk

Lifer
Nov 23, 2003
10,197
4
76
The 801 series was a different generation than the 800. The 801 was 2014, the 800 came out in 2013 with the G2.

I mean I think the 800 is powerful enough to run 6.0, but so is the 600 probably. Samsung has been consistent about two years of upgrade while going past that sometimes (the S3 was updated for 2.5 years).

Well, the Nexus 5 has Marshmallow, so I'd say the 800 can run it. Out of curiosity, I just charged my Nexus 5 and letting it update to see how well it runs Marshmallow.
 

Platypus

Lifer
Apr 26, 2001
31,046
321
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For sure. My Nexus 7 has 6.0 on it and it's even slower.

The problem with the Note 3 isn't Google though, its Samsung.

Interesting, my flo (nexus 7 2013) has been better on marshmallow than lollipop for me. I did a complete wipe though.
 

poofyhairguy

Lifer
Nov 20, 2005
14,612
318
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Interesting, my flo (nexus 7 2013) has been better on marshmallow than lollipop for me. I did a complete wipe though.

Ooops sorry, I meant the Nexus 7 has a slower SoC than the 800.

6.0 is pretty smooth on there. Doze alone was worth the upgrade.
 

openwheel

Platinum Member
Apr 30, 2012
2,044
17
81
LOL, I think he meant his Nexus 7's SoC is even slower than Nexus 5's, but his Nexus 7 can run Marshmallow perfectly. In fact, Nexus 7 has never been better. Marshmallow is another great update for Android devices. It shows high hardware capabilities from Android devices, they just lack software support.
 

CZroe

Lifer
Jun 24, 2001
24,195
857
126
The 801 series was a different generation than the 800. The 801 was 2014, the 800 came out in 2013 with the G2.



I mean I think the 800 is powerful enough to run 6.0, but so is the 600 probably. Samsung has been consistent about two years of upgrade while going past that sometimes (the S3 was updated for 2.5 years).

Same silicon, different month. The Snapdragon 801 is a bin-sorted Snapdragon 800 (better frequencies at lower voltages). As yields improved and production streamlined, pretty much all 800s produced were marked 801. The difference is so negligible it's pointless to even distinguish the two except in spec sheets.

It's silly to distinguish them more by year than by die.
 

poofyhairguy

Lifer
Nov 20, 2005
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318
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It's silly to distinguish them more by year than by die.

Not really, they aren't products in and of themselves. Unlike Intel Qualcomm doesn't sell those chips to people like you and me.

They are in phones, and in phones the 800 came out in a different year than the 801. Companies update the OS on the phone, not the SoC. So what matters is when the phone came out.
 

jhansman

Platinum Member
Feb 5, 2004
2,768
29
91
This absolute lust for the latest OS version puzzles me, but then I am running a rock solid 5.1.1 on both my 2013 N7 and GS5. I really don't care who decides when the next version rolls out. It does when it does (you can quote me on that). What I do know is my next phone will be purchased from Google; at least that way I'll have access to factory images if I want to flash the latest. It is annoying being held hostage by the carriers.
 

Platypus

Lifer
Apr 26, 2001
31,046
321
136
This absolute lust for the latest OS version puzzles me, but then I am running a rock solid 5.1.1 on both my 2013 N7 and GS5. I really don't care who decides when the next version rolls out. It does when it does (you can quote me on that). What I do know is my next phone will be purchased from Google; at least that way I'll have access to factory images if I want to flash the latest. It is annoying being held hostage by the carriers.

Maybe it's the recent slew of remote code execution bugs in the platform that makes people want to run something secure? :p

Then again, most people have nothing to worry about in that department.
 

jhansman

Platinum Member
Feb 5, 2004
2,768
29
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Then again, most people have nothing to worry about in that department.

Amen. I do not keep anything on my phone that a hacker could exploit for profit. I call, text, and email. No "pay" apps, no banking, no personal info. Thinking that mobile technology can be truly secure is right up there with Santa and the Easter Bunny. Hell, Google already knows I stopped for BBQ and visited the library last night. Not a problem.
 

CZroe

Lifer
Jun 24, 2001
24,195
857
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Not really, they aren't products in and of themselves. Unlike Intel Qualcomm doesn't sell those chips to people like you and me.



They are in phones, and in phones the 800 came out in a different year than the 801. Companies update the OS on the phone, not the SoC. So what matters is when the phone came out.

No. What matters to the consumer for them to accept that the phone is obsolete is the specifications. The Note 4 was a BEAST when it became available in October 2013 such that it still out-specs the upcoming OnePlus X.

It doesn't matter that the phone launched in 2013. It matters that a manufacturer would arbitrarily chose to drop support with no consideration for its capabilities/suitability. Dropping something just because it came out in 2013 is exactly what normal people think is unacceptable.

FWIW, the Note 3 launched in Fall and the Galaxy S5 launched in Spring. The S5 specs were considered a step back in many ways (2GB RAM instead of 3GB, Snapdragon 801's slightly bumped clock speed couldn't push the extra pixels, etc). The 800 and 801 are still current by anyone's definition. If they can't support current specs that their competitors support just because it's from 2013 then they lose my trust. Any user giving them a pass just because the phone is from 2013 is just giving them what they want.
 

CZroe

Lifer
Jun 24, 2001
24,195
857
126
This absolute lust for the latest OS version puzzles me, but then I am running a rock solid 5.1.1 on both my 2013 N7 and GS5. I really don't care who decides when the next version rolls out. It does when it does (you can quote me on that). What I do know is my next phone will be purchased from Google; at least that way I'll have access to factory images if I want to flash the latest. It is annoying being held hostage by the carriers.

My older brother asked me why he might want Marshmallow. When I told him that it allowed to to grant or revoke particular permissions on a per-app basis, he went from wondering if it was something he wanted to demanding it ASAP (he's a privacy nut who turns off all of his phone's features and data services unless he needs to look something up and refuses to keep an active Google account on the phone or use Chrome on his desktop). Clearly, that's a killer feature for him.