[Thought] Could Intel get sued over Kaby Lake?

[Crumpet]

I know that this is a topic that could easily cause a lot of heated debate, so let's try to keep it civil. It is well accepted that the 7700k is the best desktop processor currently available for the gaming sector, and many people are happy with their purchase, but that said, we are seeing swathes of people who aren't happy with their purchase and I felt it needed addressing.

Once again, please be civil. Thank you.

So we've read it in reviews, we've seen it on youtube, it's all over this forum...

KabyLake 7700k processors run extremely hot.

The processors remain within what is generally accepted as a safe operating temperature, up to and including 100c under load.

The problem is, the end user doesn't see that as an acceptable temperature, and it especially doesn't leave you with much overclocking headroom due to the thermal limitations.

So the question is: Could Intel be sued for shady business practices?

They have saved money by seemingly using a low quality TIM.

So the business profits. That is nothing new, most companies cut corners.

But by the temperatures being so uncomfortably high on a processor advertised for it's overclocking and gaming potential, users are having to de-lid their processors and apply their own TIM to get acceptable usage temperatures.

Now this is potentially what makes it shady, as Intel have now made a double saving, as these delidded processors now have their warranty voided, meaning if they go faulty Intel is no longer required to issue refund or replacement.

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

I personally think they'd get away with it due to the processors being within the acceptable range of temperatures. However independent countries may have a better claim due to advertisement laws, and simply business practice laws.

As a final disclaimer, I personally have zero intention of suing anyone. Especially Intel. I do not own a 7700k nor am I ever likely to purchase one. However I am spending significant amounts of time trying to help dissatisfied customers who have.



Thread closed at OP's request.


esquared
Anandtech Forum Director

 

[Burpo]

It doesn't matter what the end user thinks of temps. The chip is designed to run at those temps, and throttle if temps are too high. Nothing shady about any of it, except peoples misconceptions.

 

[Doom2pro]

They may not, AMD is going to crush them with Ryzen so that alleviates some of the pressure to start a class action lawsuit, I think the market will just shift over to AMD this round.

That is the entire point of competition, if one side does shady things or practices that the consumers dislike, the other side pounces and offers an attractive alternative.

Now if AMD didn't have a compelling alternative right now then probably yes, look at the Bulldozer lawsuit over cores/modules.

 

[ShintaiDK]

The processors remain within what is generally accepted as a safe operating temperature, up to and including 100c under load.

The problem is, the end user doesn't see that as an acceptable temperature, and it especially doesn't leave you with much overclocking headroom due to the thermal limitations.

The thread died there. Did you even think it through?

The CPUs are validated, warrantied and so on for 100C. Then it doesn't matter if someone think it should be 10C or 50C. They could also just do like AMD and report it in some bogus value.

They have saved money by seemingly using a low quality TIM.

Wrong, the TIM is quite good. The issue is the gap that got a purpose of its own.

Looks like a big troll thread.

 

[Burpo]

Here we go.. Just what we need an AMD troll thread,, YAY!

 

[Crumpet]

The thread died there. Did you even think it through?

The CPUs are validated, warrantied and so on for 100C. Then it doesn't matter if someone think it should be 10C or 50C. They could also just do like AMD and report it in some bogus value.



Wrong, the TIM is quite good. The issue is the gap that got a purpose of its own.

Looks like a big troll thread.

Yes I did think it through, it is advertised and sold as an overclockable processor, however it could be claimed that considering many appear to be hitting 95c+ under heavy load that there is effectively zero overclocking headroom without liquid nitrogen.

Genuinely not trying to troll. I see the i7 7700k almost as big a mistake as the fx9XXX series, which are worse.

 

[PhonakV30]

Wrong, the TIM is quite good. The issue is the gap that got a purpose of its own.

Prove it because of gap.otherwise many think it's low quality TIM.

 

[swilli89]

Looks like a big troll thread.

Pretty sure calling others trolls is against forum rules!

 

[Sweepr]

it could be claimed that considering many appear to be hitting 95c+ under heavy load that there is effectively zero overclocking headroom without liquid nitrogen.

I do not own a 7700k nor am I ever likely to purchase one. However I am spending significant amounts of time trying to help dissatisfied customers who have.

I see the i7 7700k almost as big a mistake as the fx9XXX series, which are worse.

Nice troll thread, almost thought it was serious before reading the last paragraph.

 

[ShintaiDK]

Prove it because of gap.otherwise many think it's low quality TIM.

https://forums.anandtech.com/threads/delidded-my-i7-3770k-loaded-temperatures-drop-by-20°c-at-4-7ghz.2261855/

 

[Crumpet]

Why is it a troll thread?

The temperature problems of this chip seem to be a fairly major concern.

 

[NTMBK]

Intel make no guarantees about overclocking headroom, you do it at your own risk. All they do is leave it unlocked so you can play with it.

No, they could not be sued.

 

[Bouowmx]

there is effectively zero overclocking headroom without liquid nitrogen.

4.4 GHz (all-core frequency) to 4.8-5.0 GHz with all-in-one liquid cooling is effectively zero overclocking? Hm
Intel does not guarantee levels of overclocking anyway.

 

[Crumpet]

Intel make no guarantees about overclocking headroom, you do it at your own risk. All they do is leave it unlocked so you can play with it.

No, they could not be sued.

Hmm okay, that's interesting. Thank you. More research for me to do in that area.

I suppose then, on what grounds are customers within reason to return a processor such as the above if they are dissatisfied with the performance?

 

[Jen]

i dont overclock anymore so can only say i use low wattage cpus as i dont have a need for anything faster. that being said if i did find a 7700T someday i may yet find a reason to buy it but otherwise i wont. What i have now is more than adequate for my needs if I lower the wattage somehow further I would do that

 

[legcramp]

The cpu works fine and can overclock some out of the box. Get over it. /Thread.

 

[.vodka]

Puget systems does interesting articles from time to time. This one answers the thread

The results of our testing can pretty much be summarized with the following three points:

1. Modern Intel CPUs run at full speed (including the full Turbo Boost allowed based on the number of cores and workload) all the way up to 100 °C
2. Even after the CPU hits 100 °C, the performance is not greatly affected until the CPU spends about 20% of the time > 99 °C
3. While stock cooling only causes around a 2.5% drop in performance, even a budget after market cooler will dramatically improve CPU temperatures

Having a 7700k run at its maximum temperature won't cause any other issues rather than user concern. The chip can withstand the temperatures, and will throttle if necessary. Remember the blower of hell reference Hawaii boards with their 95°C throttling point? If you're operating at stock out of the box settings then this is the expected behavior and won't harm CPU lifespan.

You can't sue someone who's selling a product that operates within the specified parameters. Overclocking is the user's responsibility.

This also applies to Intel's shift to TIM since Ivy Bridge. 7700k's TIM is validated for stock settings. It runs fine for stock settings. It's absolutely horrible for pushing the CPU to its limits. This is where we'd like for a high clocking K part to be soldered just like Sandy was... Now if you're pushing a 7700k to 5GHz through overvolting and decide 100°C is a safe operating point, well, be prepared to kiss that CPU goodbye rather sooner than someone who'd taken the time to delid, apply liquid metal TIM, get rid of the gap created by the black adhesive and use proper cooling to take all that heat away from the CPU.

------------------------------

Of course I'd love for Intel to cut the bullshit and solder mainstream K parts as they do with HEDT i7s and as they did with every high end Sandy, Nehalem/Westmere, Wolfdale, Conroe and Netburst parts the previous ten years, as well as AMD does. Use TIM for all the locked parts as they will never be run out of spec by definition.

Do you hear reports of these chips skyrocketing in reported temperatures because of the solder TIM cracking and becoming useless due to countless thermal cycling after all those years? Or even dead chips because of the stress? Long time users of those platforms haven't reported anything.. or don't care, or stopped using those a long time ago. If you have a look around enthusiast forums there are a lot of Nehalem and Sandy users out there with perfectly cool chips after eight and six years of OC'd 24/7 usage... What about Conroe and Wolfdale chips that have been in use for ten years?

I've read der8auer's report on the solder TIM and to be frank, I'm not convinced small dies and thermal cycling induced stress is the motivation for Intel to stop using solder in the mainstream K parts. Some of his points (ecology related) are defeated by the fact that Intel still solders the HEDT i7s and Xeons.

Whatever, I'll stop ranting. You can't sue Intel for hot running chips. Period.

 

[PhonakV30]

https://forums.anandtech.com/threads/delidded-my-i7-3770k-loaded-temperatures-drop-by-20°c-at-4-7ghz.2261855/

It's Ivy bridge.How about KB ?

 

[Crumpet]

Puget systems does interesting articles from time to time. This one answers the thread

Having a 7700k run at its maximum temperature won't cause any other issues rather than user concern. The chip can withstand the temperatures, and will throttle if necessary. Remember the blower of hell reference Hawaii boards with their 95°C throttling point? If you're operating at stock out of the box settings then this is the expected behavior and won't harm CPU lifespan.

You can't sue someone who's selling a product that operates within the specified parameters. Overclocking is the user's responsibility.

This also applies to Intel's shift to TIM since Ivy Bridge. 7700k's TIM is validated for stock settings. It runs fine for stock settings. It's absolutely horrible for pushing the CPU to its limits. This is where we'd like for a high clocking K part to be soldered just like Sandy was... Now if you're pushing a 7700k to 5GHz through overvolting and decide 100°C is a safe operating point, well, be prepared to kiss that CPU goodbye rather sooner than someone who'd taken the time to delid, apply liquid metal TIM, get rid of the gap created by the black adhesive and use proper cooling to take all that heat away from the CPU.

Thank you, this is the kind of information I was looking for!

Shame though, to have to invalidate your warranty to de-lid the cpu, but you are correct, no warranty is probably better than a cpu that could die at any point in or out of warranty.

 

[legcramp]

CPU will last a decade or more in stock form. Bye.

 

[lolfail9001]

So the question is: Could Intel be sued for shady business practices?

What for? They don't even need to honor warranty if you overclock your 7700k and tell them about it.

It's Ivy bridge.How about KB ?

Why would it be any different?

I suppose then, on what grounds are customers within reason to return a processor such as the above if they are dissatisfied with the performance?

On the grounds of their local law in regards to return and exchange policies.

 

[inf64]

Nice troll thread, almost thought it was serious before reading the last paragraph.

Instead of reading this thread better update the SR Benchmarks thread . We have had a huge number of leaks none of which are in the OP you made.

 

[Markfw]

So a $20 aftermarket cooler dropped temps 20c. Now THATS the answer, and NO they could not be sued.

Just think what this one would do...(I have 4 of these cooling 14cores/28 threads@100% load)
https://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16835103202

 

[RichUK]

Intel sued for Kaby Lake?

Lol

 

[unseenmorbidity]

I dislike intel's unethical business practices as much as the next guy, but they aren't required to sell you good hardware. They could use semen as TIM if they want. The only way you can seek legal compensation is if it doesn't meet their specs. As far as I know it does. They never promised you 5ghz oc's.