[Thought] Could Intel get sued over Kaby Lake?

[RichUK]

I know that this is a topic that could easily cause a lot of heated debate, so let's try to keep it civil. It is well accepted that the 7700k is the best desktop processor currently available for the gaming sector, and many people are happy with their purchase, but that said, we are seeing swathes of people who aren't happy with their purchase and I felt it needed addressing.

Once again, please be civil. Thank you.

So we've read it in reviews, we've seen it on youtube, it's all over this forum...

KabyLake 7700k processors run extremely hot.

The processors remain within what is generally accepted as a safe operating temperature, up to and including 100c under load.

The problem is, the end user doesn't see that as an acceptable temperature, and it especially doesn't leave you with much overclocking headroom due to the thermal limitations.

So the question is: Could Intel be sued for shady business practices?

They have saved money by seemingly using a low quality TIM.

So the business profits. That is nothing new, most companies cut corners.

But by the temperatures being so uncomfortably high on a processor advertised for it's overclocking and gaming potential, users are having to de-lid their processors and apply their own TIM to get acceptable usage temperatures.

Now this is potentially what makes it shady, as Intel have now made a double saving, as these delidded processors now have their warranty voided, meaning if they go faulty Intel is no longer required to issue refund or replacement.

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

I personally think they'd get away with it due to the processors being within the acceptable range of temperatures. However independent countries may have a better claim due to advertisement laws, and simply business practice laws.

As a final disclaimer, I personally have zero intention of suing anyone. Especially Intel. I do not own a 7700k nor am I ever likely to purchase one. However I am spending significant amounts of time trying to help dissatisfied customers who have.

I own a 7700k and I am a dissatisfied customer - how are you going to help me?

 

[unseenmorbidity]

I own a 7700k and I am a dissatisfied customer - how are you going to help me?

Sell it, and buy a Ryzen!

 

[Crumpet]

Hey, there's no harm in asking and knowing what your consumer rights are guys...

 

[RichUK]

So how are you going to help me?

 

[Crumpet]

Well apparently outside of suggesting you look into your local laws regarding returning of unsatisfactory products, apparently not a lot.

Which is why I needed to know ;P

 

[Conroe]

Someone who just joined the forum told me my 7700k gets too hot! Intel give me my money back. I'm going to support the underdog.

 

[Crumpet]

Clearly, post count indicates how strong of an opinion you can have.

 

[Conroe]

Often it suggests you have too strong of one.

 

[Crumpet]

I had a question, I brought it up for civil debate.

My questions were answered, some interesting facts were brought up and some people had a friendly dig.

Shall we leave it at that?

 

[Conroe]

Well, if you own one maybe this isn't a troll thread? I don't think your after civil debate.

 

[Crumpet]

I do not own one, nor would I like to considering what I have read. Though I have personally recommended a close friend to get one very recently, and numerous others on the forums. It is, without a doubt, the current gaming king. But that does not mean that I think it is acceptable that the chips run far too hot.

I will not continue this debate with you though, as I said, questions have been answered.

 

[Doom2pro]

Run a Kaby @ 100c for a few years, watch what Electromigration does to it

No worries, you'll have a Ryzen to switch to at half the price

 

[ultima_trev]

From what I see, as long as you don't push the CPU beyond its stock clocks you don't have to worry about it hitting 80+ C. My 6600K at 4.4 GHz (which is the all core turbo for the 7700K) will peak to ~75 C if I'm running FMA/AVX heavy loads so it seems to me Kaby Lake temperatures aren't too far off.

If people really are reporting 100 C temperatures they either need to 1) check their thermal paste, cooling subsystem or case airflow; 2) RMA or 3) dial back on that overclock a bit.

 

[PhonakV30]

80C ?!

 

[Doom2pro]

From what I see, as long as you don't push the CPU beyond its stock clocks you don't have to worry about it hitting 80+ C. My 6600K at 4.4 GHz (which is the all core turbo for the 7700K) will peak to ~75 C if I'm running FMA/AVX heavy loads so it seems to me Kaby Lake temperatures aren't too far off.

If people really are reporting 100 C temperatures they either need to 1) check their thermal paste, cooling subsystem or case airflow; 2) RMA or 3) dial back on that overclock a bit.

If people are really getting 100C temps they need to start bundling deliding tools with Kaby lake. This guy has a delidding kit, maybe Intel should contact him

 

[lolfail9001]

This guy has a delidding kit, maybe Intel should contact him

I still can't stop giggling about 5960X dropping 10 degrees from ripping off it's solder and replacing it with LM.

 

[DrMrLordX]

Pretty sure calling others trolls is against forum rules!

Can I get myself infracted trolling myself, and then calling myself a troll? That would be so meta.

They could use semen as TIM if they want.

Things are getting a little too pornographic around here! In another thread we had DLDO, and now this?!?!

Oh the humanity.

Also, I think if they used that particular substance under the heatspreader . . . that just wouldn't work out very well.

I still can't stop giggling about 5960X dropping 10 degrees from ripping off it's solder and replacing it with LM.

Really? That's actually kind of sad. CLU is good but it should be inferior to indium solder.

To address the OP's suggestion, the only way Intel could be liable in any fashion is if the vast majority of i7-7700k chips throttled below the advertised base clock on a regular basis. Then someone might have grounds for a class-action suit (false advertising).

Considering that we've had companies selling x86 CPUs in the past that would destroy themselves (Cyrix 5x86) I don't think Intel has any need for worry.

 

[Bouowmx]

To address the OP's suggestion, the only way Intel could be liable in any fashion is if the vast majority of i7-7700k chips throttled below the advertised base clock on a regular basis. Then someone might have grounds for a class-action suit (false advertising).

Intel 2+3e 15-W processors like Core i7-7560U (and AMD Bristol Ridge 15-W processors) fit that bill.

 

[BonzaiDuck]

I dislike intel's unethical business practices as much as the next guy, but they aren't required to sell you good hardware. They could use semen as TIM if they want. The only way you can seek legal compensation is if it doesn't meet their specs. As far as I know it does. They never promised you 5ghz oc's.

That's about the long and the short of it. When I build a new system, I stop overclocking at a point where the peak package temperature is ~80C -- 12C above TCASE for Skylake -- it will vary. With Skylake, it doesn't matter anyway -- going into the mid-80's will cause instability, or so I gathered from readings. Of course, we're talking about overclock settings above 4.7 or 4.8.

Re-lidding with CLU makes a Skylake with the best air-cooler competitive with a 240 to 280mm dual-fan radiator using an unmodified CPU chip and heat-spreader. So you can estimate what mileage you could get with the Kaby Lake so-prepared, with either cooling strategy. Because I may build a system like my new Skylake every five years, I might incline to spend the money and time to invalidate my warranty, or even to have the chip binned and relidded both.

You still wonder why Intel hasn't tried to develop a proprietary product of their own like CLU. Or, why wouldn't Intel just buy the CLU and use it? Maybe they just want to make it harder for overclocker-enthusiasts, forcing more of the public to run the chip at spec speed and voltage. Dunno.

 

[lopri]

The OP has mistaken legal process for score-settling between corporate supporters. It is not. You have to have a concrete injury to have a chance to succeed at the court of law. The imaginary lawsuit would be thrown out as frivolous even if a certain 7700K ran at 110℃. You will have to prove how that 110℃ CPU harmed you in a specific way. The question you want to ask yourself is: How did I get hurt by Intel's action? That you felt like you did not get your money's worth is not a sufficient cause.

Since Intel did not hide nor lie about 7700K's max case temperature (in this case 100C), there simply is no case to be made as long as the CPU runs at 100℃ or below. The law presumes that consumers make intelligent purchase decisions when such information is available. Imagine how many lawsuits you can manufacture if that were not the case.

You as a consumer have the greatest weapon against Intel - not giving your $$. You can also let your displeasure be known as loudly as you can in public forums like this place. But a lawsuit? Good luck finding a lawyer.

 

[VirtualLarry]

Or course, there's the opposite too - if consumers feel that they're not getting their money's worth with the i7-7700K, what about those of us that feel that we're getting perhaps too good of a deal, with the G4560. (Is it any wonder that you can't even find those right now, after the initial batch sold out?)

Edit: I'm willing to state, that in my opinion, the G4560 represents the best value-for-money CPU that Intel has yet blessed us with, except for possibly the Celeron 300A.

 

[DrMrLordX]

Intel 2+3e 15-W processors like Core i7-7560U (and AMD Bristol Ridge 15-W processors) fit that bill.

Hmm. Does that really operate below 2.4 GHz very often? Er the i7-7560U that is.

 

[mikeymikec]

Clearly, post count indicates how strong of an opinion you can have.

Er, what? Would his opinion regarding CPUs carry more weight if he had posted on P&N 20k times first?

Back to the topic, what exactly is the big deal about 7700K temps? I browsed a few review sites in an attempt to find CPU temps (which were notably absent from TechReport and AT's review), two sites reported similar load temps for non-OC'd versions, here's one:

http://hexus.net/tech/reviews/cpu/99820-intel-core-i7-7700k-14nm-kaby-lake/?page=6

A fair number of CPUs hit 70C on load. Their makers haven't been sued either. What's the problem?

 

[Zucker2k]

Ten years ago, they were all soldered and we still delidded them for that last temp gain. It took fire, brute force, balls, and a gambler's heart to do it. After that, starts a whole new challenge of mounting the chip - bare die - without cracking it. Kabylake is a wet dream for my kind of overclocker.

 

[VirtualLarry]

Ten years ago, they were all soldered and we still delidded them for that last temp gain.

Not sure if serious. How would replacing solder with TIM be in any way an improvement?