This picture says a lot about modern politics

[Genx87]

Obama definitely chickened out on going after the previous administration. But Americans have a history of this sort of thing -- we are generally pretty cowardly when it comes to holding politicians accountable. I think the folks in charge view it as a "pay it forward" sort of thing.. they let stuff slide so that their successors will do the same for them. And the people are denied justice.

All that said, while you can certainly criticize Obama a lot, comparing drone strikes to the Iraq War is flatly stupid. Majorities of all American groups support the strikes, and it's probably because the collateral damage is actually a lot lower than the alternatives.

The collateral damage the American public care about is American life.

But these drone strikes should really have the previous anti-war left in arms. They are hitting civilians more often than not. Whatever happened to creating terrorists line of reasoning from the left?

The anit-war left has fallen silent since Obama came into office. No major policy changes have occurred. And in some cases Obama has expanded Bush policies. Yet they have nothing to say.

 

[Don Vito Corleone]

You can go back to the 2006-2007 range and find the left, especially on this board (who could forget Harvey Macros? 😀 ) giving the neoconservatives exactly what they deserved. Yet here we are some years later and nothing from the left is said. Why? Does our integrity rest on what side the Presidency resides? Seems to be the case from what I can tell. Anywho the above cartoon fits.

On the other hand, you could just as easily find Republicans who had no problem with tens of thousands of collateral-damage casualties under Bush who now profess outrage about ANY such losses under Obama. This is really just politics as usual.

In fairness to President Obama, he didn't start the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan - he inherited them, along with all the related headaches. He has already ended the war in Iraq and will end the war in Afghanistan shortly.

 

[Genx87]

On the other hand, you could just as easily find Republicans who had no problem with tens of thousands of collateral-damage casualties under Bush who now profess outrage about ANY such losses under Obama. This is really just politics as usual.

In fairness to President Obama, he didn't start the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan - he inherited them, along with all the related headaches. He has already ended the war in Iraq and will end the war in Afghanistan shortly.

Or deficit spending and big govt. The cartoon is one of many examples of people picking sides and being silent when their side has the power and is making those poor decisions.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Obama definitely chickened out on going after the previous administration. But Americans have a history of this sort of thing -- we are generally pretty cowardly when it comes to holding politicians accountable. I think the folks in charge view it as a "pay it forward" sort of thing.. they let stuff slide so that their successors will do the same for them. And the people are denied justice.

All that said, while you can certainly criticize Obama a lot, comparing drone strikes to the Iraq War is flatly stupid. Majorities of all American groups support the strikes, and it's probably because the collateral damage is actually a lot lower than the alternatives.

I'm changing my mind and taking you off my ignore as you have some good points, but my style is my style and you ought to understand that my being critical is not tantamount to an attack. That would be something completely unambiguous. I'll address your points in a minute, but my objections are not at all related to the op who on this issue I disagree with

 

[Ausm]

Just as quite a few predicted too, the loudest Bush critics have all but disappeared now that Obama is in the White House doing more of the same, some worse. Hypocrites to their very core.

Hardly, I still think that GWB was the WORST President EVER in Modern history and this poll agrees with me.....


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_rankings_of_Presidents_of_the_United_States

 

[Don Vito Corleone]

Hardly, I still think that GWB was the WORST President EVER in Modern history and this poll agrees with me.....


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_rankings_of_Presidents_of_the_United_States

I certainly was no fan of his, but I think it's premature to draw long-term conclusions like this. If, hypothetically, history were to vindicate the proposition that the neoconservatives were right and that going to war in Iraq made the world safer (which already seems false), he would look like a much better President than we gave him credit for (a la Reagan and his enormous military deficit spending, which largely led to the collapse of the Soviet Union).

 

[Incorruptible]

Hardly, I still think that GWB was the WORST President EVER in Modern history and this poll agrees with me.....


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_rankings_of_Presidents_of_the_United_States

obama has pretty much followed gwb, They are both the same and have the same policies, Both support war and serve the MIC, Both also serve Wall Street

Try to take off the blinders

 

[Charles Kozierok]

I'm changing my mind and taking you off my ignore as you have some good points, but my style is my style and you ought to understand that my being critical is not tantamount to an attack. That would be something completely unambiguous. I'll address your points in a minute, but my objections are not at all related to the op who on this issue I disagree with

Glad to hear. I sent you an apology after our last altercation but maybe you never received it.

Back on topic: Why do people keep saying stuff like "The anit-war left has fallen silent since Obama came into office"? It's simply not true. He's been hounded and criticized by the far left quite a bit, especially back in 2009 when he first took over. I can remember having discussions about this, where the standard joke was that the far left spent too much time listening to what Obama's critics were calling him, and not enough time listening to the man himself.

ETA: Interesting piece from 2009. And another.

 

[xj0hnx]

You're free to counter my statement...


There is no "left".....

Your statement was " you still believe there's a "left" in this country ", there are a LOT of leftist in this country. Now if you meant there's no extreme left in Congress then fine, even though there probably are some that hold individual beliefs that would be left be even you standards.

How is it "spot on" to say that an unnecessary war based on lies that cost over 100,000 deaths and about a trillion dollars wasted, is equivalent to a few hundred collateral deaths as a result of drone strikes?

Reducing it to one point? Kind of disingenuous don't you think?

 

[Genx87]

Glad to hear. I sent you an apology after our last altercation but maybe you never received it.

Back on topic: Why do people keep saying stuff like "The anit-war left has fallen silent since Obama came into office"? It's simply not true. He's been hounded and criticized by the far left quite a bit, especially back in 2009 when he first took over. I can remember having discussions about this, where the standard joke was that the far left spent too much time listening to what Obama's critics were calling him, and not enough time listening to the man himself.

ETA: Interesting piece from 2009. And another.

Where are the mass protests about torture, gitmo, killing of citizens, creating terrorists by killing kids, occupation of Iraq, and Afghanistan? Non-stop editorials and news coverage of the wars?

Seriously, where did they run off to hide? You had to search for something and came up with an article from back in 09. How did that turn out anyways? Pretty sure democrats have been lock-step behind Obama on just about every major policy he has pushed. There might be real cracks on Gun Control. But that is because democrats favor re-election than supporting a 2nd term president over an issue that has largely been settled for 20 years.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Ahh, off the phone and now working with a real computer. Much better!

Let me back up Charles and clarify a few things to make my point more intelligible.

Regarding the cartoon, I find merit in an argument of those on the "Left" or "Democrats" or whomever didn't support the war and the consequences which came of it, such the Patriot Act, or "adjustments" in warrantless wiretaps. On the other hand I do not agree with the point that there is an equivalence between the Iraq War and drone attacks, which I happen to agree with. Not because I wish death and destruction, but because there is a demonstrated ill will in those who belong to organizations which have backed real and effective attacks on US soil. I regret that there is no magic bullet which only slays the guilty and is harmless to the innocent, but alas that is not on our technological horizon.

That said, if an American chooses to align himself with a foreign power and is outside our legal jurisdiction but has committed or has provided support with intent to do harm then he is a legitimate target. In the case of some they have renounced their citizenship, but in any case an act of war is an act of war, and we and they know it. There are consequences which have long been known in war for such actions. That is how things are and I accept our attacking as a legitimate response in such circumstances. I find that part of the OP premise without merit, however the tendency of any group, in this case those who fault Bush for his actions, but ignoring their earlier outrage and justifying it to be true.


This was before your time here but gun control had nothing on the actions of Bush back in the day. I generally supported the left, although I don't consider myself belonging to any faction, because they happened to be correct in my opinion. Those who supported the war early on were many and included those who now cry that they were deceived. Well that happens. As more things came to light the consensus was we were duped. Things like the aluminum tubes as evidence for the renewal of a nuclear program, the yellowcake debacle, no trace of WMDs, the main argument for war, and on and on.

We had an outcry of indignation which almost screamed from our monitors, and IMO (which is seldom humble 😀 ) warranted.

Then something changed. The power of the Neocons and the former administration wained. The Dems got control over a considerable portion of the Congress. Obama came to the scene with promises of justice. What has come of that? Nothing but compounding the sins of the predecessor. Moral outrage became political pragmatism. Further egregious acts are now excused. The Left has become the Right.

That is my point in a not so small nutshell. It isn't that Obama is unjustified for his actions when speaking specifically about drone attacks, but those who before were outraged against Iraq are now strangely quiet when it come to related abuses and a neglect of what was then tantamount to a Holocaust, if words were taken at face value.

As one who neither holds to left or right, but tries to hold to a more consistent standard (although being human I fail at times) I find that part of the argument to ring true.

 

[Incorruptible]

Where are the mass protests about torture, gitmo, killing of citizens, creating terrorists by killing kids, occupation of Iraq, and Afghanistan? Non-stop editorials and news coverage of the wars?

Seriously, where did they run off to hide? You had to search for something and came up with an article from back in 09. How did that turn out anyways? Pretty sure democrats have been lock-step behind Obama on just about every major policy he has pushed. There might be real cracks on Gun Control. But that is because democrats favor re-election than supporting a 2nd term president over an issue that has largely been settled for 20 years.

obama is in now so dont expect much from those morons, As long as its a democrat doing it dont expect much criticism.

These cowards who hide and serve as lapdogs for obama are no better than bush

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Glad to hear. I sent you an apology after our last altercation but maybe you never received it.

I missed it, but in truth I should have handled things better. My ideal human is a balance of intellect and emotion. Analysis and passion are two inconsistencies which conflict at times but are nevertheless necessary to be a whole person. We balance the two and in some meta sense try to master them. The result is wisdom, an intangible which goes beyond mere knowledge or emotion, but is the result of a proper distillation of the two combined for beneficial purpose. Alas, I am not wise, but a fool, but perhaps less of one for knowing myself at least to that degree. It's the human condition. All that is compounded by the use of a less than helpful medium, where there is no inflection of voice, no upturn of a lip or a smile in the eyes when a playful jest is made. Under such conditions misunderstandings are bound to happen, and if you owe me an apology, I certainly owe you the same. I suggest this be a case of water under the bridge.

 

[Ausm]

obama has pretty much followed gwb, They are both the same and have the same policies, Both support war and serve the MIC, Both also serve Wall Street

Try to take off the blinders

Then why does the Right hate him so much?

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Then why does the Right hate him so much?

A fair point. My question is why the Left does not.

There is some equivalency and certainly more than a little hypocrisy on both sides.

This is why I abhor partisanship. One evil is just that on one watch and when the shift changes? Not so much. My angst is directed (mostly) at the Dems and their supporters now since the buck stops on your desk so to speak.

 

[Ausm]

A fair point. My question is why the Left does not.

There is some equivalency and certainly more than a little hypocrisy on both sides.

This is why I abhor partisanship. One evil is just that on one watch and when the shift changes? Not so much. My angst is directed (mostly) at the Dems and their supporters now since the buck stops on your desk so to speak.

I winced several times with President Obama's decisions to embrace GWB's policies,bailing on the Public option and especially his economic team in my opinion was a joke.Oh it was also frustrating watching him reach out time after time and seeing him get played like a cheap fiddle by the Republicans.

My question to you is has there ever been a President who has done absolutely everything you wanted?

 

[Doc Savage Fan]

I remember the liberal backlash when Bush intiated the "surge" in Iraq. They thought it was a horrible idea and would never work...in fact, it actually appeared to me that many liberals didn't want it to work. In contrast, Obama initiated a similar "surge" campaign in Afghanistan. I didn't hear a peep from liberals objecting to it nor complaints when it became apparent that it was a miserable failure.

If McCain had been elected and he did exactly the same things in Afghanistan as Obama...I somehow doubt our liberal friends would be nearly as silent. Am I wrong?

 

[WHAMPOM]

Typical stab in the back by pcsturgeon. His mad is all about Obama being more successful at WAR then Bush.

 

[Nintendesert]

On the other hand, you could just as easily find Republicans who had no problem with tens of thousands of collateral-damage casualties under Bush who now profess outrage about ANY such losses under Obama. This is really just politics as usual.

In fairness to President Obama, he didn't start the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan - he inherited them, along with all the related headaches. He has already ended the war in Iraq and will end the war in Afghanistan shortly.

To be accurate, Obama did not end the war in Iraq. We were already pulling out and demilling most of our bases before there were even elections or Obama was the nominee. All he did was stay on the established course of action.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

I winced several times with President Obama's decisions to embrace GWB's policies,bailing on the Public option and especially his economic team in my opinion was a joke.Oh it was also frustrating watching him reach out time after time and seeing him get played like a cheap fiddle by the Republicans.

My question to you is has there ever been a President who has done absolutely everything you wanted?

No, but I expect them to do the right thing when it's fairly plain. I'm glad you are disappointed with what Obama has/has not done, and that's not said in any sarcastic way. My expression is one of frustration that people don't hold their own truly accountable.

Let's go back a bit and look at the Bush era. Despite what some say there were many who identify with the Right who found themselves supporting Bush because he was their guy. After all when someone is working to attack us with a NBC program of mass destruction and terrorism, why wouldn't one want to prevent that. Remember I'm talking a perspective, not objective truth here. So when the preponderance of evidence showed that the premise for the war and terrorism in general was false what happened? Some circled the wagons and decided that protecting their President and Party took precedence over anything else. They engaged in an all too common behavior and denied facts in order to preserve their sense of things. It's a mass delusion, something as damaging as any WMD in my opinion. It allows evil to prevail, and yes I believe in that quaint term. There were some however who realized that they were led astray, that what was done was wrong and they didn't appreciate it at all, but when it came down to it none of them did what I would have and cried that they were lied to and in righteous indignation demand a full accounting. Yes there were a few I know who did, but not many, certainly not enough to make a difference. It mostly came to "it shouldn't have happened, but what President does what everyone wants?" Sound familiar?

So today many programs are strengthened, none of those responsible held accountable, and the supporters of the Democrats, even those like you who know a wrong was done never become as outraged against their own side as the other. It's a completely understandable phenomena given that people are social animals and nothing is more a social construct as political ideology and party. That is a failing of our species of animal which ought to be constantly remembered and fought against. I did have hope that things would change to make a play on words, that promises of accountability would be true, but it was a deception. Consequently it's hard for someone like me to forgive and forget because it was done out of concerns for political gain. So while I understand what you are saying I am still disappointed that those who cried out based on supposed moral wrongdoing nevertheless do not pursue it with the same vigor now that their side is in power. The blood of many cry for justice, but that will never be had, nor indeed be wanted in anything but words.

That doesn't sit well with me.

 

[Charles Kozierok]

Seriously, where did they run off to hide?

I already answered that. You just ignored everything I said in my last response so you could continue repeating your talking point.

Reducing it to one point? Kind of disingenuous don't you think?

An excellent description of that cartoon.

But since the cartoonist wanted to make that comparison, I went with it. There's nothing at all inconsistent with being pissed off about something like the Iraq War, and significantly less pissed off about drone strikes. The cartoonist is either an idiot for not understanding this, or a propagandist for understanding it and putting forth that false equivalence anyway.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

An excellent description of that cartoon.

But since the cartoonist wanted to make that comparison, I went with it. There's nothing at all inconsistent with being pissed off about something like the Iraq War, and significantly less pissed off about drone strikes. The cartoonist is either an idiot for not understanding this, or a propagandist for understanding it and putting forth that false equivalence anyway.
__________________

As I say I agree, but there is a larger point which I've gone over. What can be done?

 

[Genx87]

I already answered that. You just ignored everything I said in my last response so you could continue repeating your talking point.

You didnt answer it. You pointed to two articles from nearly 4 years ago. This is 2013, the war continues, the drone strikes continue, gitmo remains open, american citizens are still targetted, civil liberties still trampled. And yet the editorial pages, MSM, and the same far left that attacked Bush at every chance on the same topics is largely silent. And that is my point. The filed in line and shut the fuck up when their guy was doing it. Which plays in perfect with the cartoon.

 

[Charles Kozierok]

HR -- no prob on the other stuff. 🙂

On the other hand I do not agree with the point that there is an equivalence between the Iraq War and drone attacks, which I happen to agree with. Not because I wish death and destruction, but because there is a demonstrated ill will in those who belong to organizations which have backed real and effective attacks on US soil. I regret that there is no magic bullet which only slays the guilty and is harmless to the innocent, but alas that is not on our technological horizon.

Basically this. Those who oppose drone strikes have to then tell us: what's your alternative?

And by the way, those strikes have majority support pretty much across the board in the US, among most political groups.

That said, if an American chooses to align himself with a foreign power and is outside our legal jurisdiction but has committed or has provided support with intent to do harm then he is a legitimate target. In the case of some they have renounced their citizenship, but in any case an act of war is an act of war, and we and they know it. There are consequences which have long been known in war for such actions.

I agree with the concept, but I also recognize some of the arguments that this is a dangerous road to go down. I would much prefer apprehending these people and bringing them to justice -- that's what the "good guys" are supposed to do.

Then something changed. The power of the Neocons and the former administration wained. The Dems got control over a considerable portion of the Congress. Obama came to the scene with promises of justice. What has come of that? Nothing but compounding the sins of the predecessor. Moral outrage became political pragmatism. Further egregious acts are now excused. The Left has become the Right.

This goes beyond what I would say. I do think Obama should have made more changes than he did, but I also recognize that, despite what far-right-wing morons would have us believe, he's not actually a dictator.

I oppose his decision not to prosecute the prior administration, but again, Americans don't seem to have much stomach for that.

I supported his idea to expand operations in Afghanistan back when he ran on that in 2008. And he did what he said he would. In retrospect, I think this was a mistake, and we should get out of there ASAP.

It isn't that Obama is unjustified for his actions when speaking specifically about drone attacks, but those who before were outraged against Iraq are now strangely quiet when it come to related abuses and a neglect of what was then tantamount to a Holocaust, if words were taken at face value.

The degree of "strange quietness" is being exaggerated in this thread. But again, why would people on the left be outraged about drone attacks when they generally support them? As you said, it's not like anyone is happy about innocent casualties, but the other options are arguably much worse.

 

[Ausm]

I remember the liberal backlash when Bush intiated the "surge" in Iraq. They thought it was a horrible idea and would never work...in fact, it actually appeared to me that many liberals didn't want it to work. In contrast, Obama initiated a similar "surge" campaign in Afghanistan. I didn't hear a peep from liberals objecting to it nor complaints when it became apparent that it was a miserable failure.

If McCain had been elected and he did exactly the same things in Afghanistan as Obama...I somehow doubt our liberal friends would be nearly as silent. Am I wrong?

That fact is we should have never been in there in the first place.