THIS is the problem with healthcare

[s0me0nesmind1]

It’s almost like he doesn’t know that single payer is cheaper.

hahaha I love the whole "It's just cheaper, DUH!" as if all the doctors, pharmacists, pharma-companies, surgeons, nurses, and hospitals are going to love getting lower amounts.

I can tell you right now that if we went single payer I would pay DRASTICALLY more. As someone that has had plenty of medical care in my life - I can most definitely tell you that.

 

[sdifox]

hahaha I love the whole "It's just cheaper, DUH!" as if all the doctors, pharmacists, pharma-companies, surgeons, nurses, and hospitals are going to love getting lower amounts.

I can tell you right now that if we went single payer I would pay DRASTICALLY more. As someone that has had plenty of medical care in my life - I can most definitely tell you that.

Ok give us one example of your past medical expenses.

 

[MomentsofSanity]

hahaha I love the whole "It's just cheaper, DUH!" as if all the doctors, pharmacists, pharma-companies, surgeons, nurses, and hospitals are going to love getting lower amounts.

I can tell you right now that if we went single payer I would pay DRASTICALLY more. As someone that has had plenty of medical care in my life - I can most definitely tell you that.

I'm curious why you feel you would pay drastically more? What factors into that determination?

 

[fskimospy]

How do you know the answer to that is yes? It certainly wasn't when California flirted with the idea last year.

Medicare and Medicaid are more efficient than private health insurance in the US so it seems likely a larger implementation of them would be as well.

 

[s0me0nesmind1]

Ok give us one example of your past medical expenses.

Past medical expenses... hmmm, I'll just stick to last year since it's obviously recent, but I've had plenty of others throughout life.

Last Year alone -
*Daughter born premature by 3 months
*Birth of daughter
*Nasal correction surgery for myself
*I take an expensive medication for epilepsy - cost is roughly $800 for a 30-day supply.

At the end of the year: I paid about $2,000 for carrying the insurance, and ~$5,000 for the entire year's procedures and prescriptions. My insurance paid over $1.3m IIRC. I would pull it up and show a screenshot if the UHC website has a way to but it seems to only show this year.

So overall, cost me $7k, and $2k of that was before taxes. Also have HSA investments and contributions from my employer that also offset some of these costs. So to put that in terms of how much of a percentage healthcare last year cost me less than 4% of our income... and last year that was obviously a case where we had a drastically more medical expenses than normal.

I'm curious why you feel you would pay drastically more? What factors into that determination?

Taxation. Check the tax rates of all the countries you guys love to idolize with their single payer systems

 

[MomentsofSanity]

Taxation. Check the tax rates of all the countries you guys love to idolize with their single payer systems

I was going to explain it to you but instead, show me an example of why it would cost more due to taxation. Factor in real costs for health care (premiums, co-pays, deductible, prescriptions).

This should be interesting.

 

[s0me0nesmind1]

Medicare and Medicaid are more efficient than private health insurance in the US so it seems likely a larger implementation of them would be as well.

Got some reading material to support that? Don't take that as cocky, I'm genuinely curious as I have read plenty in the past on the vast piles of corruption concerning programs like medicaid.

Not to mention it obviously sucks balls that you can't just go wherever you want for your care.

 

[MomentsofSanity]

Got some reading material to support that? Don't take that as cocky, I'm genuinely curious as I have read plenty in the past on the vast piles of corruption concerning programs like medicaid.

Not to mention it obviously sucks balls that you can't just go wherever you want for your care.

http://www.pnhp.org/news/2011/september/medicare-is-more-efficient-than-private-insurance
https://benestream.com/2015/08/11/medicaid-is-more-cost-efficient-than-you-think/
https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/about/Crossroads/06_13_03.html

 

[s0me0nesmind1]

I was going to explain it to you but instead, show me an example of why it would cost more due to taxation. Factor in real costs for health care (premiums, co-pays, deductible, prescriptions).

This should be interesting.

You're the one claiming that it is cheaper - please provide the tax rates of the countries you claim to idolize.

I gave you my details, I spent $7k on a ton of medical care last year - so simply tell me the tax rates for those countries and we can work from there.

Or are you one of those sad, inept type of person that are unable to correlate paying for medical costs in taxes vs. paying for it at the counter?

 

[sdifox]

Past medical expenses... hmmm, I'll just stick to last year since it's obviously recent, but I've had plenty of others throughout life.

Last Year alone -
*Daughter born premature by 3 months
*Birth of daughter
*Nasal correction surgery for myself
*I take an expensive medication for epilepsy - cost is roughly $800 for a 30-day supply.

At the end of the year: I paid about $2,000 for carrying the insurance, and ~$5,000 for the entire year's procedures and prescriptions. My insurance paid over $1.3m IIRC. I would pull it up and show a screenshot if the UHC website has a way to but it seems to only show this year.

So overall, cost me $7k, and $2k of that was before taxes. Also have HSA investments and contributions from my employer that also offset some of these costs. So to put that in terms of how much of a percentage healthcare last year cost me less than 4% of our income... and last year that was obviously a case where we had a drastically more medical expenses than normal.



Taxation. Check the tax rates of all the countries you guys love to idolize with their single payer systems

My first kid was also premie, didn't cost me a cent during his three week stay in NICU. Didn't even cost my insurance a cent. My wife was in the hospital for a week or so. If she had stayed in the ward, it would have been free. She had a private room. 200 a night, that was covered by our private insurance. The actual birth was covered by universal healthcare. I think our private insurance was about 4k a year for the family.

Our taxes are heavier on the top end compared to you guys, but the lower tax brackets pay less tax. And it includes universal healthcare. Ontario does have an additional health premium of about 1k a year.

Up until last month, epilensy drugs would have been covered for Ontarians under 24. Election of Doug Ford changed that.

That 1.3m rate is just crazy.

 

[blackangst1]

I'm sure the Republicans have a draft of a single player health care system ready to go. Idiot.

? Neither party does.

Idiot.

 

[blackangst1]

Name one significant Republican politician who is pro single payer.

Click the link I cited. You'll get several.

 

[s0me0nesmind1]

My first kid was also premie, didn't cost me a cent during his three week stay in NICU. Didn't even cost my insurance a cent. My wife was in the hospital for a week or so. If she had stayed in the ward, it would have been free. She had a private room. 200 a night, that was covered by our private insurance. The actual birth was covered by universal healthcare. I think our private insurance was about 4k a year for the family.

Our taxes are heavier on the top end compared to you guys, but the lower tax brackets pay less tax. And it includes universal healthcare. Ontario does have an additional health premium of about 1k a year.

So again, what are your tax rates? Not aware of your country or I would look them up myself and I could very well tell you how much more I would have paid if I had all those medical expenses there.

Again, we are talking about who has less money in their pocket here - not who spent more at the check-out counter at the doctor office/hospital.

That 1.3m rate is just crazy.

Completely agree. But if anything it goes to show (in agreeance with many others here) that the elephant in the room isn't just costs of insurance. It's getting doctors to want less money in their pocket. It's getting nurses to want less money in their pocket, it's pharmacists to want less money in their pocket - and obviously all the others (hospitals, big-pharma, wallstreet, ceos, etc)

Majority of it was from the NICU for 3 months though - just FYI. The amount of my expensive ass medication seems paltry in comparison to how much room and board cost at the NICU.

 

[Jaskalas]

In the USA many people either avoid medical care, or they go bankrupt after they're forced to take what they need.
If it takes a tax to solve both issues, then so be it.

It's less of a straight up tax increase and more of a proper reorganization of costs and risks. Primary difference is it wouldn't be designed to destroy people as our current system does.

 

[sdifox]

So again, what are your tax rates? Not aware of your country or I would look them up myself and I could very well tell you how much more I would have paid if I had all those medical expenses there.

Again, we are talking about who has less money in their pocket here - not who spent more at the check-out counter at the doctor office/hospital.




Completely agree. But if anything it goes to show (in agreeance with many others here) that the elephant in the room isn't just costs of insurance. It's getting doctors to want less money in their pocket. It's getting nurses to want less money in their pocket, it's pharmacists to want less money in their pocket - and obviously all the others (hospitals, big-pharma, wallstreet, etc)

https://www.investopedia.com/financ...ans-really-pay-more-taxes-than-americans.aspx

Generally speaking we pay about 1/3 of our income as income rax.

 

[s0me0nesmind1]

In the USA many people either avoid medical care, or they go bankrupt after they're forced to take what they need.
If it takes a tax to solve both issues, then so be it.

It's less of a straight up tax increase and more of a proper reorganization of costs and risks. Primary difference is it wouldn't be designed to destroy people as our current system does.

Depends. A lot of what developed our country isn't so much "Lets all work together!" and moreso of "Land of opportunity - as long as you seize it". Which I agree - there is a shitload of opportunity still - but not if you get a worthless degree and complain living in your parent's basement while gaming all-day.

So it goes without saying that a general broad taxation to compensate for the medical care of everyone else doesn't go over well with the general american sentiment. Why should we all pay for the costs of 2/3rds of adults that CHOOSE an obese lifestyle? or CHOOSE to smoke?

It's one thing when you have a general "healthy" society - and we can all come together around paying for things such as people that are born with deficiencies, but why should you pay more for the choices of others? And if you say "Because it's the right thing to do" then why aren't you at the hospital right now writing checks?

 

[ivwshane]

? Neither party does.

Idiot.

You were saying you stupid fuck?

https://slate.com/business/2018/04/the-democrats-keep-coming-up-with-new-health-care-plans-good.html

 

[ivwshane]

Click the link I cited. You'll get several.

Did you even read your own link, you fucking moron? Your link was specifically calling people to contact their Republican representative to demand they get on board with single payer.

 

[blackangst1]

You were saying you stupid fuck?

https://slate.com/business/2018/04/the-democrats-keep-coming-up-with-new-health-care-plans-good.html

LOL Bernie Sanders. OK you got me.

edit: I cant find the bill number he submitted. Got it handy? I just see him talking about it.

edit2: Never mind found it!

Looks like it gaining traction even amongst Trump voters.

 

[SMOGZINN]

hahaha I love the whole "It's just cheaper, DUH!" as if all the doctors, pharmacists, pharma-companies, surgeons, nurses, and hospitals are going to love getting lower amounts.

They don't have to be paid less for it to be cheaper. Right now our system works by the customer paying the insurance company, which takes a profit from it, who then pays the hospital, who takes a profit from it, who pays the doctor, who takes a profit from it, who pays the nurses, who takes a profit from it. If we can cut out just one of those profit motives, the insurance company, we will probably see some savings.

 

[s0me0nesmind1]

https://www.investopedia.com/financ...ans-really-pay-more-taxes-than-americans.aspx

Generally speaking we pay about 1/3 of our income as income rax.

Okay - so - roughly speaking, our family income (wife + I) is projected to be ~$140k in taxable income (we actually earn more - but this our US "taxable" amount after retirement 401k contributions and such). Anyhow, in the states I will pay roughly $16,000 in federal income tax on that amount based on the standard deduction and 1 child tax credit.

Based on Canada's income taxes, I would pay $26,000+ in FEDERAL income tax alone (with the $11k standard deduction equivalent"). On top of that, I would have to pay province income taxes on that $140k as well - which obviously depends on your province, but let me just estimate it at an additional 10% flat - which would be an additional $14,000 on top of that $26,000. We're already talking paying $40k total in income taxes, which is $24k more than what I pay now. This isn't even getting into GST/HST/PST - which is more than my sales tax rate (8.25%) and property tax rates.

So tell me again, how is this cheaper?

 

[sdifox]

Okay - so - roughly speaking, our family income (wife + I) is projected to be ~$140k in taxable income (we actually earn more - but this our US "taxable" amount after retirement 401k contributions and such). Anyhow, in the states I will pay roughly $16,000 in federal income tax on that amount based on the standard deduction and 1 child tax credit.

Based on Canada's income taxes, I would pay $26,000+ in FEDERAL income tax alone (with the $11k standard deduction equivalent"). On top of that, I would have to pay province income taxes on that $140k as well - which obviously depends on your province, but let me just estimate it at an additional 10% flat - which would be an additional $14,000 on top of that $26,000. We're already talking paying $40k total in income taxes, which is $24k more than what I pay now. This isn't even getting into GST/HST/PST - which is more than my sales tax rate (8.25%) and property tax rates.

So tell me again, how is this cheaper?

Healthcare is about 11% of our GDP. I'll try to find healthcare to to income tax ratio. Like I said our income tax is about one third, and that is just how our taxes are structured. You guys tax less on higher income.

For Ontario, 140k income means 42,100 in income tax for both levels of government. Consumption tax is 13%. My Property tax is about 0.7% of assessed property value but this varies depending on where you live obviously.

Health care is about 37% of all government expenditure.

 

[ivwshane]

Okay - so - roughly speaking, our family income (wife + I) is projected to be ~$140k in taxable income (we actually earn more - but this our US "taxable" amount after retirement 401k contributions and such). Anyhow, in the states I will pay roughly $16,000 in federal income tax on that amount based on the standard deduction and 1 child tax credit.

Based on Canada's income taxes, I would pay $26,000+ in FEDERAL income tax alone (with the $11k standard deduction equivalent"). On top of that, I would have to pay province income taxes on that $140k as well - which obviously depends on your province, but let me just estimate it at an additional 10% flat - which would be an additional $14,000 on top of that $26,000. We're already talking paying $40k total in income taxes, which is $24k more than what I pay now. This isn't even getting into GST/HST/PST - which is more than my sales tax rate (8.25%) and property tax rates.

So tell me again, how is this cheaper?

Is there a reason you aren't including how much you and your employer currently pay for your health care?

 

[blackangst1]

Healthcare is about 11% of our GDP. Like I said our income tax is about one third, and that is just how our taxes are structured. You guys tax less on higher income.

Ok, but that doesnt answer his concern or question.

 

[brycejones]

Name one significant Republican politician who is pro single payer.

Click the link I cited. You'll get several.
http://www.pnhp.org/gop

It doesn't name a single significant Republican politician who is pro single payer. It doesn't even name a single Republican politician who is pro single payer.