This is BUNK!!! Hot Car Deaths are NOT an 'accident'!!!

[mect]

How about being honest?
Stop posting purely statistical data claiming it's some extensive scientific study and research. It isn't, and you're still an idiot because you don't even understand the data you are trying to use.

You are right, I don't understand the data because my PhD isn't in psychology or neuroscience, so instead I trust in the expertise and interpretation of those that are in those fields. So I'm still waiting for you to share an expert opinion that supports your perspective. How long should I wait? Do you have anything to back you up besides emojis?

 

[Paratus]

Bullshit.

Where does the concept of "superiority" even enter into this? How many parents leave their kids in hot cars for a long period of time? .0001%? Yeah, I guess you can say the 99.999 percent is superior to the .0001%. Give me a break. Being careful with your children is the normal default. If it wasn't, children would be dropping like flies.



A "study" says there is no fault in a situation like this? Studies don't draw conclusions about fault. Ethicists and legal systems do.

You know what the legal system says about neglectful behavior toward children? It says you are liable criminally if the neglect passes a certain threshold. Even where such neglect would not subject you to criminal liability had the victim been a stranger. The law says we have a higher standard of care towards our children than we do towards others.

The reasoning of the majority in this thread is a complete inversion of that. You guys want to apply a higher standard of conduct toward strangers than towards one's own children, because we assume if a stranger is the victim, the neglectful person wouldn't feel as bad about it, and hence some criminal punishment is in order.



Wrong wrong wrong. It had nothing to do with being fortunate. If you read my post, you noticed that I make thoughtless errors all the time. [b}The reason I never neglected my child is because she was on my mind constantly, far more than was the wallet, keys or iphone I left on my dresser when I went to work. That is the normal default for almost everyone.[/b]



Yes it does. It directly has to do with all of those things.

Yes that is the normal default for everyone. The issue is when circumstances not entirely in your control make it not the default.

These study's point to three things that have occured in most of these cases that could remove your daughter from being on your mind constantly.

1. Change in routine
2. Stress
3. Lack of Sleep

From the Washington Post article I linked earlier, here are the factors that led to this mother forgetting her child:

On the day Balfour forgot Bryce in the car, she had been up much of the night, first babysitting for a friend who had to take her dog to an emergency vet clinic, then caring for Bryce, who was cranky with a cold. Because the baby was also tired, he uncharacteristically dozed in the car, so he made no noise. Because Balfour was planning to bring Bryce’s usual car seat to the fire station to be professionally installed, Bryce was positioned in a different car seat that day, not behind the passenger but behind the driver, and was thus not visible in the rear-view mirror. Because the family’s second car was on loan to a relative, Balfour drove her husband to work that day, meaning the diaper bag was in the back, not on the passenger seat, as usual, where she could see it. Because of a phone conversation with a young relative in trouble, and another with her boss about a crisis at work, Balfour spent most of the trip on her cell, stressed, solving other people’s problems. Because the babysitter had a new phone, it didn’t yet contain Balfour’s office phone number, only her cell number, meaning that when the sitter phoned to wonder why Balfour hadn’t dropped Bryce off that morning, it rang unheard in Balfour’s pocketbook.

This anecdote has lack of sleep, multiple stressors and multiple changes in routine.


Every thing listed up there is a link in the error chain that led to the death of her kid. It's easy to point out how to break each link to prevent the catastrophe, but each link by itself is not enough to cause catastrophe, nor is each link easy to see when it's happening.

What the above tells me, and a career involving failure and risk analysis supports, is that in the presence of enough links anyone is susceptible to this.

Memory and evolutionary theory back this up as well. We have a prospective memory that helps us plan future events that's involved with our nice big prefrontal cortex. It's also expensive from an energy and evolutionary standpoint so we've evolved other structures to reduce that demand. We have a semantic memory that allows us to go on "autopilot" and do things we've done over and over again like driving to work without having to fire up the big expensive prefrontal cortex do them.

In her story above her prospective memory was first tasked with:

• Drop off Husband
• Drop off child
• Drive to work

Then say the troubled reltive called and it was

• Drop off Husband
• Drop off child
• Help relative
• Drive to work

Then she dropped off the husband and the boss called then it was

• Talk to boss
• Help Relative
• Semantic system takes over driving to work

Dropping the kid off at the sitters was itself dropped.

What your post tells me is you feel that no amount of links in the error chain would be enough for you to forget your daughter. I disagree. All human brains are susceptible. Apply the exact right stressors, situations and links in an error chain and it could happen to anyone.

 

[Pohemi]

You are right, I don't understand the data because my PhD isn't in psychology or neuroscience, so instead I trust in the expertise and interpretation of those that are in those fields. So I'm still waiting for you to share an expert opinion that supports your perspective. How long should I wait? Do you have anything to back you up besides emojis?

I need no counterpoint, as you've offered nothing of substance. You didn't even supply what you claimed to have, this extensive "research" and study that didn't exist.

I need no proof, I made no claims.
It falls on you to support YOUR OWN claims. The claims that the issue is purely chance or luck, and nothing to do with attention, and you obviously can't do that.

 

[mect]

I need no counterpoint, as you've offered nothing of substance. You didn't even supply what you claimed to have, this extensive "research" and study that didn't exist.

I need no proof, I made no claims.
It falls on you to support YOUR OWN claims. The claims that the issue is purely chance or luck, and nothing to do with attention, and you obviously can't do that.

So to be clear, in your opinion, interviews of experts on a subject have no substance?

 

[woolfe9998]

Yes that is the normal default for everyone. The issue is when circumstances not entirely in your control make it not the default.

These study's point to three things that have occured in most of these cases that could remove your daughter from being on your mind constantly.

1. Change in routine
2. Stress
3. Lack of Sleep

From the Washington Post article I linked earlier, here are the factors that led to this mother forgetting her child:

On the day Balfour forgot Bryce in the car, she had been up much of the night, first babysitting for a friend who had to take her dog to an emergency vet clinic, then caring for Bryce, who was cranky with a cold. Because the baby was also tired, he uncharacteristically dozed in the car, so he made no noise. Because Balfour was planning to bring Bryce’s usual car seat to the fire station to be professionally installed, Bryce was positioned in a different car seat that day, not behind the passenger but behind the driver, and was thus not visible in the rear-view mirror. Because the family’s second car was on loan to a relative, Balfour drove her husband to work that day, meaning the diaper bag was in the back, not on the passenger seat, as usual, where she could see it. Because of a phone conversation with a young relative in trouble, and another with her boss about a crisis at work, Balfour spent most of the trip on her cell, stressed, solving other people’s problems. Because the babysitter had a new phone, it didn’t yet contain Balfour’s office phone number, only her cell number, meaning that when the sitter phoned to wonder why Balfour hadn’t dropped Bryce off that morning, it rang unheard in Balfour’s pocketbook.

This anecdote has lack of sleep, multiple stressors and multiple changes in routine.


Every thing listed up there is a link in the error chain that led to the death of her kid. It's easy to point out how to break each link to prevent the catastrophe, but each link by itself is not enough to cause catastrophe, nor is each link easy to see when it's happening.

What the above tells me, and a career involving failure and risk analysis supports, is that in the presence of enough links anyone is susceptible to this.

Memory and evolutionary theory back this up as well. We have a prospective memory that helps us plan future events that's involved with our nice big prefrontal cortex. It's also expensive from an energy and evolutionary standpoint so we've evolved other structures to reduce that demand. We have a semantic memory that allows us to go on "autopilot" and do things we've done over and over again like driving to work without having to fire up the big expensive prefrontal cortex do them.

In her story above her prospective memory was first tasked with:

• Drop off Husband
• Drop off child
• Drive to work

Then say the troubled reltive called and it was

• Drop off Husband
• Drop off child
• Help relative
• Drive to work

Then she dropped off the husband and the boss called then it was

• Talk to boss
• Help Relative
• Semantic system takes over driving to work

What your post tells me is you feel that no amount of links in the error chain would be enough for you to forget your daughter. I disagree. All human brains are susceptible. Apply the exact right stressors, situations and links in an error chain and it could happen to anyone.

Well, I'm not sure if "no amount of links" would make me forget my daughter. I am, however, sure that the specific links applicable in this case and in the literature have occurred to me time and time again. I've had to break routines, to drive her somewhere when my wife usually does it but cannot that day. And I've gone through periods of being sleep deprived daily. And I have that same thing, driving to work without remembering any details of the drive. Add to that: I have a persistent condition called ADD which makes me forget things due to lack of attention. And all of those things at the same time, over and over again. Maybe adding even more distracting stressors would put me over the edge. Maybe not.

Fortunately the law concerns itself with what people actually do or do not do. It doesn't concern itself with what other people might theoretically possibly do, but only very few people ever actually do. No sane legal system operates on that standard. No sane legal system lets you off the hook because 10,000 other people "could" have done it, but didn't.

 

[JimKiler]

When can a simple act of forgetfulness land a stranger in jail for harm to someone else's kid? Besides a daycare leaving a kid on a bus (which has happened and I don't recall jail time for those cases either, even though that is literally their job and they have systems in place to support them).

For the record, I never said anything about strangers before. I just don't see how sending someone to jail for a couple years will do anything other than destroy what's left of their and their families lives. And like I said before, it depends on the circumstances, 9 hours is pretty extreme and I'm all for frying anyone that left their kid on purpose even without an intent to do harm. But no one is going to be getting out of their car and think "I better double check the backseat, because that one guy got a year in prison." Meanwhile the grandpa that literally dropped his granddaughter out of a window on cruise ship didn't even spend any time in jail, while sticking her through that window was a willful act of a moron.

The people claiming "this could never happen to me" are the people most likely to do it and make the problem worse by spreading the idea it is some moral failing of a bad parent. I never forgot my daughter because I was scared shitless that I or someone else might someday forget her. I taught her how to get out of her carseat and out of the car as early as I could. And I wouldn't let her grandparents drive her places until she was able to get herself out of their locked cars without help.

This is similar to cosleeping. Literally everything says not to do it, yet I know many people that did and they just claim "that wouldn't happen to me, I'd wake up if I rolled over on my baby, or if she couldn't breath." Yet, hundreds of kids die from cosleeping every year, should we start jailing those parents as well? How about daycare workers that don't put babies down correctly and they die of SIDS?

I am not saying there isn't fault, or that events shouldn't be investigated, but in a true accident I don't really see the point in harsh punishments. Kids are unfortunately killed everyday due to negligence, but they don't make the headlines, and no one calls for blood.

I always question cosleeping because the only cases i hear about on the news involve drugs or alcohol in the parent. I never coslept with a baby but i wonder how dangerous it is when the parents are not high or drunk.

 

[Pohemi]

So to be clear, in your opinion, interviews of experts on a subject have no substance?

I am saying that YOU have no substance, because you are dishonest about the data you are looking at.

The article's author might be an 'expert' in his respective field. He's one person. Writing a singular article based on statistical data.

Not a scientific consensus from a panel of experts. Not peer-reviewed "research" as you kept spouting off.

Not sure how many times I have to explain this in simple terms, and yet you still double down with idiocy.

Keep trying though, clown.

 

[Zorba]

I always question cosleeping because the only cases i hear about on the news involve drugs or alcohol in the parent. I never coslept with a baby but i wonder how dangerous it is when the parents are not high or drunk.

I think it is the highest driver of SIDS. I'm sure the majority of cosleeping parents have gone to bed over the legal limit at least once, based on drinking habits of other parents I know.

 

[mect]

I am saying that YOU have no substance, because you are dishonest about the data you are looking at.

The article's author might be an 'expert' in his respective field. He's one person. Writing a singular article based on statistical data.

Not a scientific consensus from a panel of experts. Not peer-reviewed "research" as you kept spouting off.

Not sure how many times I have to explain this in simple terms, and yet you still double down with idiocy.

Keep trying though, clown.

So to be clear, you are now saying that interviews with experts are substantive?

Please show where I claimed my source was peer reviewed. Please show where I claimed a scientific consensus. I did say research, which was supported by the expert opinion (he has done research on the subject).

I'd say it is pretty clear that I've provided much more substantive support for my position than you have for yours. So, until you provide actual evidence, I'm going to conclude that you don't actually care about the facts, you are just the equivalent of an antivaxxer, and can as such also go fuck off.

 

[Zorba]

Well, I'm not sure if "no amount of links" would make me forget my daughter. I am, however, sure that the specific links applicable in this case and in the literature have occurred to me time and time again. I've had to break routines, to drive her somewhere when my wife usually does it but cannot that day. And I've gone through periods of being sleep deprived daily. And I have that same thing, driving to work without remembering any details of the drive. Add to that: I have a persistent condition called ADD which makes me forget things due to lack of attention. And all of those things at the same time, over and over again. Maybe adding even more distracting stressors would put me over the edge. Maybe not.

Fortunately the law concerns itself with what people actually do or do not do. It doesn't concern itself with what other people may might theoretically possibly do, but only very few people ever actually do. No sane legal system operates on that standard. No sane legal system lets you off the hook because 10,000 other people "could" have done it, but didn't.

So what do feel would be accomplished by putting these people in jail for years?

 

[shortylickens]

I used to laugh that the majority of our arguments were based on personal opinion and emotion and misunderstanding.

Then I realized thats what the majority of the country is doing and its not fucking funny at all.

 

[Pohemi]

So to be clear, you are now saying that interviews with experts are substantive?

I'd say it is pretty clear that I've provided much more substantive support for my position than you have for yours. So, until you provide actual evidence, I'm going to conclude that you don't actually care about the facts, you are just the equivalent of an antivaxxer, and can as such also go fuck off.

I can't be any clearer, but you can keep asking for more clarity since you obviously still don't get it.

And claiming to provide evidence of "research" doesn't mean you've provided anything but the (professional) opinion of one scientist. Based on other articles and data, not his own.

You should stop pretending it has significant value, or that you've offered anywhere near compelling evidence or arguments. I can find singular articles supporting the opposite views by scientific 'experts' as well, but I don't debate disingenuously.

Maybe you should try it? I won't hold my breath.

[Forgotten Baby Syndrome: dimensions of the phenomenon and new research perspectives] - PubMed

Forgotten Baby Syndrome (FBS) defines the phenomenon of forgetting a child in a parked vehicle. FBS is in constant growth with significant repercussions for the parent, the family and society. Scientific research on the topic is very limited. Literature referring to FBS focuses mostly on the...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

The above link provides no detailed data, but calls into question the validity of studies and research based on much of the data coming from the media, which coincidentally, is mostly what your medical expert based his article on.

 

[woolfe9998]

So what do feel would be accomplished by putting these people in jail for years?

Objection. Asked and answered. See post #14.

 

[Vic]

I didn't read through the whole thread, but the reason these genuinely accidental hot car deaths don't get prosecuted is because there is literally nothing that society can do to punish these parents that they aren't already doing to themselves. It'd be interesting to see a long-term study of their suicide rate.

 

[Zorba]

Objection. Asked and answered. See post #14.

Do you actually think making an example of this guy will have even a marginal effect of this issue?

Why don't you support this for other forms of negligence that are far more likely to result in child deaths? (Asked but not answered.l

 

[woolfe9998]

Do you actually think making an example of this guy will have even a marginal effect of this issue?

Why don't you support this for other forms of negligence that are far more likely to result in child deaths? (Asked but not answered.l

Do I think prosecuting one guy will have more than a marginal effect? That's pretty disingenuous. Bear in mind that same argument can be made for the next guy, and the one after that, and the one after that. Because each case is just one person, right? Deterrence happens because we've signaled that we're willing to prosecute people for offenses like these. Cumulatively.

I think I already answered your second question. I have no problem with prosecuting someone for letting a child drown, or for any other form of neglect. I have no per se rule of prosecuting or not prosecuting based on the broad type of situation. It will always depend on the totality of circumstances in each case. The only reason I mentioned a difference in timing is that it's one factor. One aspect of it.

Mother prosecuted for letting baby drown | Safe & Sound

A child can drown in just 5 centimetres of water which is why they should never be left along in a bath. Should the worst happen do you know how to do CPR?

www.safeandsound.uk.net

 

[Zorba]

Do I think prosecuting one guy will have more than a marginal effect? That's pretty disingenuous. Bear in mind that same argument can be made for the next guy, and the one after that, and the one after that. Because each case is just one person, right? Deterrence happens because we've signaled that we're willing to prosecute people for offenses like these. Cumulatively.

I think I already answered your second question. I have no problem with prosecuting someone for letting a child drown, or for any other form of neglect. I have no per se rule of prosecuting or not prosecuting based on the broad type of situation. It will always depend on the totality of circumstances in each case. The only reason I mentioned a difference in timing is that it's one factor. One aspect of it.

Mother prosecuted for letting baby drown | Safe & Sound

A child can drown in just 5 centimetres of water which is why they should never be left along in a bath. Should the worst happen do you know how to do CPR?

www.safeandsound.uk.net

I wasn't meaning to strawman. I'll rephrase, do you actually think jailing people in these circumstances will have a marginal impact on their occurrence?

I think jailing people that speed through neighborhoods would have a much larger impact on childhood mortality.

 

[shortylickens]

Theres very little I know for sure but there is one thing I'm fairly certain of: In America, punishment is NOT an effective deterrent to any kind of behavior. Our ridiculous legal system is solid proof of that.

 

[woolfe9998]

I wasn't meaning to strawman. I'll rephrase, do you actually think jailing people in these circumstances will have a marginal impact on their occurrence?

I think jailing people that speed through neighborhoods would have a much larger impact on childhood mortality.

I can't be sure. But I did say earlier up thread that it might deter someone who's neglect is more willful than the case here. Like the woman who leaves her kid in the car to get high and have sex for 10 hours. Because that person is operating on self-interest, and hence is more deterrable (that person is also guilty of a more serious offense akin to recklessness rather than mere negligence and hence should be punished more severely as well). So to answer your question, it may deter other types of offenders in this general category better than it would someone more like the person in question here.

 

[PingSpike]

My girlfriend's new car beeps at her before she gets out if she leaves anything sitting on the backseat.

How does that work exactly? At some points in time my kid's carseats weighed more than they did.

 

[Zorba]

I can't be sure. But I did say earlier up thread that it might deter someone who's neglect is more willful than the case here. Like the woman who leaves her kid in the car to get high and have sex for 10 hours. Because that person is operating on self-interest, and hence is more deterrable (that person is also guilty of a more serious offense akin to recklessness rather than mere negligence and hence should be punished more severely as well). So to answer your question, it may deter other types of offenders in this general category better than it would someone more like the person in question here.

In those cases, I am 100% for harsh punishment, as they made an active choice to endanger the kid.

How does that work exactly? At some points in time my kid's carseats weighed more than they did.

The rentals I've been around either just have a setting so they always beep at you. Or they have seat belt sensors in the back, so if a seat belt is buckled it beeps at you.

 

[PingSpike]

The rentals I've been around either just have a setting so they always beep at you. Or they have seat belt sensors in the back, so if a seat belt is buckled it beeps at you.

Sounds useless to me. Car seats are often always buckled. And something that just always beeps when you leave the car is just noise that you'll quickly learn to ignore.

 

[itsmydamnation]

wow lots of stupid people in this thread without any idea of the real world.

We work long hours and are stressed! On daily repetitive tasks ( like driving to work) we rely on our DMN. When there is a small change to our standard plans , like can you drop the children at childcare on the way to work this is when things can go horribly wrong.

I have experienced this myself , luckily my child at the time was 6 and it was school not childcare. drove the almost 40mins to work only to have my daughter finally pipe up , "dad i dont think this is the way to school". If my daughter was three years younger I have no doubt I would have left her in the car that day.

Sounds useless to me. Car seats are often always buckled. And something that just always beeps when you leave the car is just noise that you'll quickly learn to ignore.

my current car has weight sensors in the seats, complains alot if your moving and no seat belt on in that seat, seems simple enough to have to car not lock the same way and beep at you if there is a weight on a seat, that alone would be enough.

 

[Zorba]

Sounds useless to me. Car seats are often always buckled. And something that just always beeps when you leave the car is just noise that you'll quickly learn to ignore.

Yeah, I agree. The last rental car I had a few weeks ago at Disney World (a Nissan Altima) would honk it's horn at you. The problem was it'd take so long to do it I was usually long gone before I heard it. In an Subaru Ascent I had for about a month on loan would just beep at you and display a message, like you said easy to ignore.

 

[shortylickens]

wow lots of stupid people in this thread without any idea of the real world.

We work long hours and are stressed! On daily repetitive tasks ( like driving to work) we rely on our DMN. When there is a small change to our standard plans , like can you drop the children at childcare on the way to work this is when things can go horribly wrong.

I have experienced this myself , luckily my child at the time was 6 and it was school not childcare. drove the almost 40mins to work only to have my daughter finally pipe up , "dad i dont think this is the way to school". If my daughter was three years younger I have no doubt I would have left her in the car that day.

The vast majority of technology does not increase the quality of life.
It has increased the PACE of life, and more people every generation are over worked and over stressed.