This is BUNK!!! Hot Car Deaths are NOT an 'accident'!!!

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woolfe9998

Lifer
Apr 8, 2013
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It takes a few seconds of forgetfulness and depending on the temperature only 15 minutes to become fatal.

Not paying attention to a kid while swimming is intentional neglect.

The stories get traction because they are rare and they let people look down on others for being human. Meanwhile no stories about all the kids injured and killed because their parents couldn't be bothered to properly install a car seat or adjust it for the kid.

The actually happened to one of my mom's co-workers 25 years ago. He was an extremely nice guy and a good dad. It was absolutely devastating. The company had on-site day car in the parking lot. He picked up his daughter for a check up at his normal lunch time, afterwards he grabbed some drive through and she fell asleep in her rear facing car seat. He was thinking about an upcoming meeting he was late for. When he got back to the parking lot he just found a spot like he did everyday after lunch and ran inside for his meeting.

Easy to claim that he was dumb or horrible and that you'd never do it yourself, but telling yourself that you'd never do that makes it more likely you will.

The line between typical neglect and criminal negligence in parenting is blurry. It depends not strictly on the situation (hot car v. drowning as examples) but on the totality of circumstances. Time is just one factor. If it took only 15 minutes I wouldn't consider that at a criminal level because there is a lack of foreseeability. But all the cases I've read involved many hours.

I'm not the only one who thinks that, at least implicitly. Eric Garner died from a 12 second chokehold. Cop wasn't prosecuted, because people tend to view that as a freak occurrence with a victim who had unusual sensitivities. George Floyd was 9:42. A time which was repeated over and over again in the media, and even put on signs and t-shirts, signifying its significance. That was ruled as murder. The difference in time moved that up the scale from ordinary negligence to criminal negligence to recklessness (i.e. murder).
 
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Amol S.

Platinum Member
Mar 14, 2015
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This is criminal negligence, nothing less. I can see no jail time due to the extreme loss he'll have to deal with for the rest of his days, but this is NOT the proper message.



.

"Child Endangerment" is not a federal crime??? I thought all states had laws against child endangerment.
 
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Zorba

Lifer
Oct 22, 1999
15,244
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The line between typical neglect and criminal negligence in parenting is blurry. It depends not strictly on the situation (hot car v. drowning as examples) but on the totality of circumstances. Time is just one factor. If it took only 15 minutes I wouldn't consider that at a criminal level because there is a lack of foreseeability. But all the cases I've read involved many hours.

I'm not the only one who thinks that, at least implicitly. Eric Garner died from a 12 second chokehold. Cop wasn't prosecuted, because people tend to view that as a freak occurrence with a victim who had unusual sensitivities. George Floyd was 9:42. A time which was repeated over and over again in the media, and even put on signs and t-shirts, signifying its significance. That was ruled as murder. The difference in time moved that up the scale from ordinary negligence to criminal negligence to recklessness (i.e. murder).
Of course the circumstances matter. Huge difference for someone that doesn't normally take their kid to daycare in the morning forgetting and going into work and someone that leaves their kid in the car on purpose while they party.
 
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UNCjigga

Lifer
Dec 12, 2000
24,937
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This is something non-parents just don't understand. First, with 20 month olds (especially twins) you might still be in the sleep deprivation phase of parenting if kids aren't sleeping thru the night or waking up early at 5am. Strike one against being aware of kids in the backseat.

Next, at that age, it's not uncommon for kids to fall asleep within 2 minutes of starting a drive. Depending how far the commute is, it's easy for kids to be fast asleep and not making a sound.

I know these things because I've had both happen to me. Now the next point is crucial. If your daycare is on the regular route you take to work (not out of the way/separate direction) it is super easy to blow by and not think of stopping if your mind is elsewhere. Lucky for me, I work from home so that doesn't happen to me. But twice, when I had other errands to run, I've blown by the school. Lucky for me my kid was old enough to scream "DAD! You PASSED the school!"
 

dainthomas

Lifer
Dec 7, 2004
14,635
3,509
136
There is this commercial that runs on local sports radio here that talks about accidental deaths in the car and it always makes me laugh.

One of the suggestions to not forget your kids in the back of the car, is to put something that you need and is important and won't forget in your backseat, like a purse or something.

Because, you know ... you don't need your kids or they aren't important or anything...

My girlfriend's new car beeps at her before she gets out if she leaves anything sitting on the backseat.
 
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woolfe9998

Lifer
Apr 8, 2013
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This is something non-parents just don't understand. First, with 20 month olds (especially twins) you might still be in the sleep deprivation phase of parenting if kids aren't sleeping thru the night or waking up early at 5am. Strike one against being aware of kids in the backseat.

Next, at that age, it's not uncommon for kids to fall asleep within 2 minutes of starting a drive. Depending how far the commute is, it's easy for kids to be fast asleep and not making a sound.

I know these things because I've had both happen to me. Now the next point is crucial. If your daycare is on the regular route you take to work (not out of the way/separate direction) it is super easy to blow by and not think of stopping if your mind is elsewhere. Lucky for me, I work from home so that doesn't happen to me. But twice, when I had other errands to run, I've blown by the school. Lucky for me my kid was old enough to scream "DAD! You PASSED the school!"

Did you ever leave your kid in a car for 9 hours?

I'm also a parent, and I've mentioned before having adult ADD which would make me a high risk for this sort of thing. Also sleep deprivation is not uncommon in my line of work. The combination of ADD and sleep deprivation especially can cause some bizarre behavior. Like driving to a mall to return something to a department store, and not realizing until I got out of the car that the return item was still sitting on the floor at home.

What I never did was endanger my daughter, no matter how brain addled and mistake prone I may have been. Because my daughter was 100x more important than the mundane things I routinely forgot about. And another thing it never caused was this strange phenomenon of actually remembering something that never happened. It's one thing to forget about something, and yet another to "clearly" remember doing something you didn't do. A stronger inference is that he just didn't think about those kids for 9 hours.

I do have some sympathy for him. I'm sure he feels terrible about it and will carry it around for the rest of his life. I also had some sympathy for Amber Gyger who shot a black man in his own apartment because it was pretty clear she mistakenly thought it was her own apartment. But I still thought she should go to jail.

Some acts of neglect are extreme enough that criminal punishment is in order. I find it ironic that when someone's child, as opposed to say, a stranger, is the victim of the extreme neglect, that we decide to cut the neglectful person a pass because we assume he feels bad about it, while if it was a stranger everyone is all about prosecution. Yet we're supposed to be the most careful with our children because they are who were are supposed to care about the most.
 
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mect

Platinum Member
Jan 5, 2004
2,424
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Did you ever leave your kid in a car for 9 hours?

I'm also a parent, and I've mentioned before having adult ADD which would make me a high risk for this sort of thing. Also sleep deprivation is not uncommon in my line of work. The combination of ADD and sleep deprivation especially can cause some bizarre behavior. Like driving to a mall to return something to a department store, and not realizing until I got out of the car that the return item was still sitting on the floor at home.

What I never did was endanger my daughter, no matter how brain addled and mistake prone I may have been. Because my daughter was 100x more important than the mundane things I routinely forgot about. And another thing it never caused was this strange phenomenon of actually remembering something that never happened. It's one thing to forget about something, and yet another to "clearly" remember doing something you didn't do. A stronger inference is that he just didn't think about those kids for 9 hours.

I do have some sympathy for him. I'm sure he feels terrible about it and will carry it around for the rest of his life. I also had some sympathy for Amber Gyger who shot a black man in his own apartment because it was pretty clear she mistakenly thought it was her own apartment. But I still thought she should go to jail.

Some acts of neglect are extreme enough that criminal punishment is in order. I find it ironic that when someone's child, as opposed to say, a stranger, is the victim of the extreme neglect, that we decide to cut the neglectful person a pass because we assume he feels bad about it, while if it was a stranger everyone is all about prosecution. Yet we're supposed to be the most careful with our children because they are who were are supposed to care about the most.
Just because it never happened to you doesn't mean that it is because you are superior, it is because you are lucky (or maybe better put others are unlucky). This has been studied. There is literally no fault to the parent in situations like the one in the OP. This is just part of being human. The reason you never accidentally forgot your child in the car has nothing to do with you being careful and everything to do with you being fortunate. This has nothing to do with how much someone cares about their child. This has nothing to do with how careful a person is. This has nothing to do with parents that intentionally leave their kids in the car to go party. Educate yourself on the topic before you post further.
 
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purbeast0

No Lifer
Sep 13, 2001
53,024
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This is something non-parents just don't understand. First, with 20 month olds (especially twins) you might still be in the sleep deprivation phase of parenting if kids aren't sleeping thru the night or waking up early at 5am. Strike one against being aware of kids in the backseat.

Next, at that age, it's not uncommon for kids to fall asleep within 2 minutes of starting a drive. Depending how far the commute is, it's easy for kids to be fast asleep and not making a sound.

I know these things because I've had both happen to me. Now the next point is crucial. If your daycare is on the regular route you take to work (not out of the way/separate direction) it is super easy to blow by and not think of stopping if your mind is elsewhere. Lucky for me, I work from home so that doesn't happen to me. But twice, when I had other errands to run, I've blown by the school. Lucky for me my kid was old enough to scream "DAD! You PASSED the school!"
I am a parent of 2 and I don't understand it.
 

woolfe9998

Lifer
Apr 8, 2013
16,189
14,114
136
Just because it never happened to you doesn't mean that it is because you are superior, it is because you are lucky (or maybe better put others are unlucky).

Bullshit.

Where does the concept of "superiority" even enter into this? How many parents leave their kids in hot cars for a long period of time? .0001%? Yeah, I guess you can say the 99.999 percent is superior to the .0001%. Give me a break. Being careful with your children is the normal default. If it wasn't, children would be dropping like flies.

This has been studied. There is literally no fault to the parent in situations like the one in the OP. This is just part of being human.

A "study" says there is no fault in a situation like this? Studies don't draw conclusions about fault. Ethicists and legal systems do.

You know what the legal system says about neglectful behavior toward children? It says you are liable criminally if the neglect passes a certain threshold. Even where such neglect would not subject you to criminal liability had the victim been a stranger. The law says we have a higher standard of care towards our children than we do towards others.

The reasoning of the majority in this thread is a complete inversion of that. You guys want to apply a higher standard of conduct toward strangers than towards one's own children, because we assume if a stranger is the victim, the neglectful person wouldn't feel as bad about it, and hence some criminal punishment is in order.

The reason you never accidentally forgot your child in the car has nothing to do with you being careful and everything to do with you being fortunate.

Wrong wrong wrong. It had nothing to do with being fortunate. If you read my post, you noticed that I make thoughtless errors all the time. The reason I never neglected my child is because she was on my mind constantly, far more than was the wallet, keys or iphone I left on my dresser when I went to work. That is the normal default for almost everyone.

This has nothing to do with how much someone cares about their child. This has nothing to do with how careful a person is. This has nothing to do with parents that intentionally leave their kids in the car to go party. Educate yourself on the topic before you post further.

Yes it does. It directly has to do with all of those things.
 

mect

Platinum Member
Jan 5, 2004
2,424
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Bullshit.

Where does the concept of "superiority" even enter into this? How many parents leave their kids in hot cars for a long period of time? .0001%? Yeah, I guess you can say the 99.999 percent is superior to the .0001%. Give me a break. Being careful with your children is the normal default. If it wasn't, children would be dropping like flies.



A "study" says there is no fault in a situation like this? Studies don't draw conclusions about fault. Ethicists and legal systems do.

You know what the legal system says about neglectful behavior toward children? It says you are liable criminally if the neglect passes a certain threshold. Even where such neglect would not subject you to criminal liability had the victim been a stranger. The law says we have a higher standard of care towards our children than we do towards others.

The reasoning of the majority in this thread is a complete inversion of that. You guys want to apply a higher standard of conduct toward strangers than towards one's own children, because we assume if a stranger is the victim, the neglectful person wouldn't feel as bad about it, and hence some criminal punishment is in order.



Wrong wrong wrong. It had nothing to do with being fortunate. If you read my post, you noticed that I make thoughtless errors all the time. The reason I never neglected my child is because she was on my mind constantly, far more than was the wallet, keys or iphone I left on my dresser when I went to work. That is the normal default for almost everyone.



Yes it does. It directly has to do with all of those things.
If you can't control something, then you shouldn't be at fault. Fuck off until you grow a brain.
 
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woolfe9998

Lifer
Apr 8, 2013
16,189
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If you can't control something, then you shouldn't be at fault. Fuck off until you grow a brain.

Oh I see, I'm dumb because I don't subscribe to a completely mechanistic view of human behavior which leaves people not responsible for their choices and actions? Because I don't believe that the difference between the person who leaves a child in a hot car for 9 hours and the one who doesn't is a matter of random chance?

Cite me the studies that say this. Link them please. I guarantee whatever studies you cite don't say exactly what you claim they say.

I have to say, I understand the argument that people think he's suffered enough punishment already. I cannot get on board with the argument that he had no fault whatsoever, which is literally what you've said. But hey, if "studies" say this, I'll re-evaluate. It's an extraordinary claim though, and extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof.

PS: just saw your link above. Will read.
 

Pohemi

Diamond Member
Oct 2, 2004
9,452
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Just because it never happened to you doesn't mean that it is because you are superior, it is because you are lucky (or maybe better put others are unlucky). This has been studied. There is literally no fault to the parent in situations like the one in the OP. This is just part of being human. The reason you never accidentally forgot your child in the car has nothing to do with you being careful and everything to do with you being fortunate. This has nothing to do with how much someone cares about their child. This has nothing to do with how careful a person is. This has nothing to do with parents that intentionally leave their kids in the car to go party. Educate yourself on the topic before you post further.
Bullshit.

Yes it does. It directly has to do with all of those things.

A "study" says there is no fault in a situation like this? Studies don't draw conclusions about fault. Ethicists and legal systems do.
Being 'fortunate' and 'lucky' has nothing to do with being an attentive parent. Nobody is perfect and mistakes do happen, sometimes tragically...but to say that it never happening is because 'you just got lucky that you never forgot them in the backseat' is completely bullshit.

Edit: the "study" looks like bullshit as well. It's an article by consumerreports, not a scientific journal or publication. It has statements made by a neuroscientist, with statistics from other, independent orgs that track data on child deaths from hot cars.

That is not a 'scientific study'. But nice try. :rolleyes:
If you can't control something, then you shouldn't be at fault. Fuck off until you grow a brain.
Grow a brain? LOL.
How about you just be honest about the articles you read and try to support your views with?
Fuck off, indeed.
 
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mect

Platinum Member
Jan 5, 2004
2,424
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Being 'fortunate' and 'lucky' has nothing to do with being an attentive parent. Nobody is perfect and mistakes do happen, sometimes tragically...but to say that it never happening is because 'you just got lucky that you never forgot them in the backseat' is completely bullshit.
Read the data. Being an attentive parent has nothing to do with it. It isn't bullshit, unless you think bullshit is based on research and data. You just got lucky you never forgot them in the backseat of your car is completely true. And people that continue to ignore the research and instead just stick their heads in the sand will continue to impede progress on this. If you want to fix this, you don't shame people it happens to. Instead, you require car seats and booster seats to have alarms in them.
 
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mect

Platinum Member
Jan 5, 2004
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Are you trying to say you can't control whether to remember if your kids are in the backseat or not?
Yes, that is exactly what I am saying. And that is what the research says. People that disagree are just biased because it never happened to them. It never happened to me, but I prefer to believe the experts over my own personal experience.
 

Pohemi

Diamond Member
Oct 2, 2004
9,452
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Read the data. Being an attentive parent has nothing to do with it. It isn't bullshit, unless you think bullshit is based on research and data. You just got lucky you never forgot them in the backseat of your car is completely true. And people that continue to ignore the research and instead just stick their heads in the sand...
Yes, that is exactly what I am saying. And that is what the research says.
Edit: the "study" looks like bullshit as well. It's an article by consumerreports, not a scientific journal or publication. It has statements made by a neuroscientist, with statistics from other, independent orgs that track data on child deaths from hot cars.
That is not a 'scientific study'. But nice try. :rolleyes:
"Research! Research!"

It isn't "research", and you're an idiot.
 

JimKiler

Diamond Member
Oct 10, 2002
3,559
205
106
I'm going to disagree here. The consequence of losing a child dwarfs a year or two in jail and the way parents "handle" there kids have nothing to do with it.

Unless you didn't evolve as a human we all have the necessary biological weaknesses in our brains - under the right circumstances - to end up forgetting a child.

I highly suggest reading this Washington Post article from a decade ago to understand what I'm talking about.


I concur. I remember reading up on this subject and there was an instance where a dad after losing his child this way attempted to take an officer's gun and shoot himself. I could totally see myself in that scenario. I now have a 10 and 12 year old and i was paranoid i would leave them in the car when their were babies and toddlers. I was also paranoid to deliver pizzas on Halloween.

Parents are sleep deprived and under the right circumstances it can happen. Just like scam artists, a lot of people who know better can fall for them if the timing is right. Watch the show Money Explained on netflix and all their experts at the end reveal how those people all fell for a scam and lost money.

A friend of mine got a scam call in the middle of the night that his son in college was kidnapped. My friend was not awake when it happened and the number was spoofed to come from his son's apartment so we can be vigilant and reduce it but we cannot stop all accidents and scams.
 
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mect

Platinum Member
Jan 5, 2004
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Being 'fortunate' and 'lucky' has nothing to do with being an attentive parent. Nobody is perfect and mistakes do happen, sometimes tragically...but to say that it never happening is because 'you just got lucky that you never forgot them in the backseat' is completely bullshit.

Edit: the "study" looks like bullshit as well. It's an article by consumerreports, not a scientific journal or publication. It has statements made by a neuroscientist, with statistics from other, independent orgs that track data on child deaths from hot cars.

That is not a 'scientific study'. But nice try. :rolleyes:

Grow a brain? LOL.
How about you just be honest about the articles you read and try to support your views with?
Fuck off, indeed.
I linked it because I'm not an expert in psychology or neuroscience, so it is far easier for me to read news reports by the experts. Most people consider consumer reports a pretty reliable reporting institution. Are you saying someone with a PhD in neuroscience isn't a reliable source? Additionally, the author of the report has a PhD in pediatric injury biomechanics, so is scientifically inclined. I certainly would trust peer reviewed publications over my sources, so feel free to provide them if you think you have evidence to support your claims, but all I've seen so far is your feels. But continue acting like a Trump humper.
 
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Zorba

Lifer
Oct 22, 1999
15,244
10,817
136
This is something non-parents just don't understand. First, with 20 month olds (especially twins) you might still be in the sleep deprivation phase of parenting if kids aren't sleeping thru the night or waking up early at 5am. Strike one against being aware of kids in the backseat.

Next, at that age, it's not uncommon for kids to fall asleep within 2 minutes of starting a drive. Depending how far the commute is, it's easy for kids to be fast asleep and not making a sound.

I know these things because I've had both happen to me. Now the next point is crucial. If your daycare is on the regular route you take to work (not out of the way/separate direction) it is super easy to blow by and not think of stopping if your mind is elsewhere. Lucky for me, I work from home so that doesn't happen to me. But twice, when I had other errands to run, I've blown by the school. Lucky for me my kid was old enough to scream "DAD! You PASSED the school!"
Yeah, I've had friends that have gotten to work with the kid in the back seat, 20 miles from day care.

One time we were leaving the house at like 4 am for an early flight, while leaving our neighborhood my daughter screams "I'M NOT BUCKLED IN!!!" wife and I had both completely forgotten to buckle her car seat and forgot to check.
 

mect

Platinum Member
Jan 5, 2004
2,424
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So I'm still waiting for those that disagree with me to post something other than their feelings. Some data or opinion from someone with expertise in the field would be nice. How long should I wait? You guys are just as bad as antivaxxers. The only reason you are okay with vaccines is they don't go against your preheld judgements.
 
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Zorba

Lifer
Oct 22, 1999
15,244
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Bullshit.

Where does the concept of "superiority" even enter into this? How many parents leave their kids in hot cars for a long period of time? .0001%? Yeah, I guess you can say the 99.999 percent is superior to the .0001%. Give me a break. Being careful with your children is the normal default. If it wasn't, children would be dropping like flies.

A "study" says there is no fault in a situation like this? Studies don't draw conclusions about fault. Ethicists and legal systems do.

You know what the legal system says about neglectful behavior toward children? It says you are liable criminally if the neglect passes a certain threshold. Even where such neglect would not subject you to criminal liability had the victim been a stranger. The law says we have a higher standard of care towards our children than we do towards others.

The reasoning of the majority in this thread is a complete inversion of that. You guys want to apply a higher standard of conduct toward strangers than towards one's own children, because we assume if a stranger is the victim, the neglectful person wouldn't feel as bad about it, and hence some criminal punishment is in order.

Wrong wrong wrong. It had nothing to do with being fortunate. If you read my post, you noticed that I make thoughtless errors all the time. The reason I never neglected my child is because she was on my mind constantly, far more than was the wallet, keys or iphone I left on my dresser when I went to work. That is the normal default for almost everyone.

Yes it does. It directly has to do with all of those things.
When can a simple act of forgetfulness land a stranger in jail for harm to someone else's kid? Besides a daycare leaving a kid on a bus (which has happened and I don't recall jail time for those cases either, even though that is literally their job and they have systems in place to support them).

For the record, I never said anything about strangers before. I just don't see how sending someone to jail for a couple years will do anything other than destroy what's left of their and their families lives. And like I said before, it depends on the circumstances, 9 hours is pretty extreme and I'm all for frying anyone that left their kid on purpose even without an intent to do harm. But no one is going to be getting out of their car and think "I better double check the backseat, because that one guy got a year in prison." Meanwhile the grandpa that literally dropped his granddaughter out of a window on cruise ship didn't even spend any time in jail, while sticking her through that window was a willful act of a moron.

The people claiming "this could never happen to me" are the people most likely to do it and make the problem worse by spreading the idea it is some moral failing of a bad parent. I never forgot my daughter because I was scared shitless that I or someone else might someday forget her. I taught her how to get out of her carseat and out of the car as early as I could. And I wouldn't let her grandparents drive her places until she was able to get herself out of their locked cars without help.

This is similar to cosleeping. Literally everything says not to do it, yet I know many people that did and they just claim "that wouldn't happen to me, I'd wake up if I rolled over on my baby, or if she couldn't breath." Yet, hundreds of kids die from cosleeping every year, should we start jailing those parents as well? How about daycare workers that don't put babies down correctly and they die of SIDS?

I am not saying there isn't fault, or that events shouldn't be investigated, but in a true accident I don't really see the point in harsh punishments. Kids are unfortunately killed everyday due to negligence, but they don't make the headlines, and no one calls for blood.
 
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mect

Platinum Member
Jan 5, 2004
2,424
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When can a simple act of forgetfulness land a stranger in jail for harm to someone else's kid? Besides a daycare leaving a kid on a bus (which has happened and I don't recall jail time for those cases either, even though that is literally their job and they have systems in place to support them).

For the record, I never said anything about strangers before. I just don't see how sending someone to jail for a couple years will do anything other that destroy what's left of their and their families lives. And like I said before, it depends on the circumstances, 9 hours is pretty extreme and I'm all for frying anyone that did it on purpose. But no one is going to be getting out of their car and think "I better double check the backseat, because that one guy got a year in prison." Meanwhile the grandpa that literally dropped his granddaughter out of a window on cruise ship didn't even spend any time in jail, while sticking her through that window was willful act of a moron.

The people claiming "this could never happen to me" are the people most likely to do it and make the problem worse by spreading the idea it is some moral failing of a bad parent. I never forgot my daughter because I was scared shitless that I or someone else might someday forget her. I taught her how to get out of her carseat and out of the car as early as I could. And I would let her grandparents drive her places unless she was able to get herself out of their locked cars without help.

This is similar to cosleeping. Literally everything says not to do it, yet I know many people that did and they just claim "that wouldn't happen to me, I'd wake up if I rolled over on my baby, or if she couldn't breath." Yet, hundreds of kids die from cosleeping every year, should we start jailing those parents as well? How about daycare workers that don't put babies down correctly and they die of SIDS?

If there is one thing the US needs its more people in our prisons.
 

Pohemi

Diamond Member
Oct 2, 2004
9,452
12,988
146
So I'm still waiting for those that disagree with me to post something other than their feelings.
How about being honest?
Stop posting purely statistical data claiming it's some extensive scientific study and research. It isn't, and you're still an idiot because you don't even understand the data you are trying to use.
Yeah, okay. This is slightly better, still not exactly a wide and encompassing study. It's a short article written by...ONE scientist...with more pages of prior news article links and sources than his own article. Still not a scientific study. Try again, clown.

:rolleyes: