This is a good trend for the country

[[DHT]Osiris]

Those are good examples of community, yes.

And what religious institutions actually represent is a concentration of power into a few individuals, and the sole source of community, which is primarily to ensure that power stays concentrated.

 

[fleshconsumed]

Yeah, like I said earlier history doesn't view religion in a favorable light. Do you think that churches are still teaching these things? I mean even with the gay marriage issue, the most I hear churches say is that they don't want to be forced to perform the ceremony.

We're good friends with LGBT family so we've had a good opportunity to interact with a lot of their LGBT friends, not a single one of them ever expressed any desire to get married in a church, they just wanted to have the same state and federal benefits and protections extended to them as any other married couple. On the other hand I've had more than one christian say to my face that they would absolutely outlaw gay marriage if they had the power to do so.

I would kindly suggest for you to take a closer look at christian community as a whole. There are rather progressive affirming churches around my parts, and it is possible you belong to one as well, but they're still exception and not the rule. There are christians that I get along with well and respect them as fellow human beings, but they're few and between. The majority of my interactions with christians has been overwhelmingly negative, and I don't see that changing any time soon.

 

[[DHT]Osiris]

There are christians that I get along with well and respect them as fellow human beings, but they're few and between. The majority of my interactions with christians has been overwhelmingly negative, and I don't see that changing any time soon.

So really what you're saying is, there's a few Christians that are decent people, despite being Christian? 😛

 

[fleshconsumed]

So really what you're saying is, there's a few Christians that are decent people, despite being Christian? 😛

Yes. They are the type that don't force their faith/morality unto others. They do exist, although in my experience they're vast vast minority.

 

[Mai72]

I've learned more about religion (especially Christanity) as a new atheist over the last 6 months than at any time in my life.

1) The only accounts of a Jesus come 40-50 years after he died. And, the only accounts are from Christian historias. If you wanted a non-bias recording of Jesus from a Greek, or non-Roman historian you aren't going to find it. IMO, this is a big red flag on whether Jesus existed or not. I still think he existed, but I just don't think he was magical.

2) The gospels are filled with contradictions, and falsehoods. And, we don't have the originals. All that we have are copies of copies of copies of copiee ad nausem...

3) If God were omnipresent and all powerful, why are there cultures today that have no idea of the biblical god? My ex Thai girlfriend who is a Buddhist was like "who is this god? Jesus? She thought that he was a USA movie star. The bible has a ethnocentric view that was written with caucasian people in mind. Where are the native Americans? The Asians? The Pacific Islanders and Africans? Why would they be doomed to burn in hell forever, if they've never heard of the God in the bible.

4) Whose right, and whose wrong? Are the Muslims correct? What about the Hindus, Native Americans or Buddhist? Even within Christanity they can't even agree. I was born Catholic. I was told on multiple occasions that I was bound for hell by Baptist Christians because I prayed to a statue. And, that the pope was satan. Muslims think evewryone who doesn't bow to Allah is hell bound.

5) About Heaven and Hell. I picked up this wonderful book by Bart Erhman titled "Heaven and Hell. A HIstory of the Afterlife." Bart is a biblical historian who has spent 40 years of his life researching the old, new testament, the gospels, etc. He knows his stuff. He argues that Jesus never preached the Christian concept of heaven and hell. That the version we were taught isn't in the ancient hebrew text, and it's not found in the old testament. This makes sense since Jews believe in a very different afterlife than the Christian version which IMO was used to scare people into becoming Christians. If you want you can watch the video on YouTube.

Starts at the 12:25 mark

Dr. Ehrman on why the new testament is not reliable.

 

[Mai72]

This is also some good stuff. Richard Carrier on "Why Invent the Jesus."

Richard Carrier on "Why the Gospels are myth."

 

[nakedfrog]

3) If God were omnipresent and all powerful, why are there cultures today that have no idea of the biblical god? My ex Thai girlfriend who is a Buddhist was like "who is this god? Jesus? She thought that he was a USA movie star. The bible has a ethnocentric view that was written with caucasian people in mind. Where are the native Americans? The Asians? The Pacific Islanders and Africans? Why would they be doomed to burn in hell forever, if they've never heard of the God in the bible.

As far as ethnocentrism, remember that the most overwhelmingly popular Bible in the USA is the King James Version, which as the name implies, was the version commissioned by a caucasian monarch in the UK. Different sects have varying opinions on what happens to those who've never had the opportunity to be introduced to Christianity.

 

[MtnMan]

We're good friends with LGBT family so we've had a good opportunity to interact with a lot of their LGBT friends, not a single one of them ever expressed any desire to get married in a church, they just wanted to have the same state and federal benefits and protections extended to them as any other married couple. On the other hand I've had more than one christian say to my face that they would absolutely outlaw gay marriage if they had the power to do so.

I would kindly suggest for you to take a closer look at christian community as a whole. There are rather progressive affirming churches around my parts, and it is possible you belong to one as well, but they're still exception and not the rule. There are christians that I get along with well and respect them as fellow human beings, but they're few and between. The majority of my interactions with christians has been overwhelmingly negative, and I don't see that changing any time soon.

There really isn't a "christian community as a whole". There are lots of people that call themselves christian, but certainly not a community. The difference between so called "christians" are as great as christians and muslims.

Within blocks of each other, you can find a "christian" church that is all-inclusive. Welcomes all, regardless of gender, race, or sexual persuasion. A block away another "christian" church that spends all Sunday telling you whom to hate, who to discriminate against, and who to vote for. One nearby baptist church threatened to expel members for supporting wrong candidate, long before Trump came on the scene.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_Waynesville_Baptist_Church

As a lifelong atheist, I am so damn happy to have never believed in any of that crap, but I also recognize that religion is a real and present danger to society, and our future.

 

[nakedfrog]

There really isn't a "christian community as a whole". There are lots of people that call themselves christian, but certainly not a community. The difference between so called "christians" are as great as christians and muslims.

Within blocks of each other, you can find a "christian" church that is all-inclusive. Welcomes all, regardless of gender, race, or sexual persuasion. A block away another "christian" church that spends all Sunday telling you whom to hate, who to discriminate against, and who to vote for. One nearby baptist church threatened to expel members for supporting wrong candidate, long before Trump came on the scene.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_Waynesville_Baptist_Church

As a lifelong atheist, I am so damn happy to have never believed in any of that crap, but I also recognize that religion is a real and present danger to society, and our future.

Don't forget the OTHER Christian churches... I once drove through a small town in Nebraska that had a billboard probably 6' x 10' that said "If you're going to church on Sunday, you're worshipping SATAN!". I think it was from a Seventh Day Adventist church.

 

[Moonbeam]

Supose there is some sort of something or other, some experience or state of awareness or wisdom or knowledge, something that is actually gives rise to the concept humans have of Truth.

If that is so then whatever that Truth might be, nothing can make it false, and likewise, nothing that is false can ever be that Truth.

My question then would be this. Suppose you are somebody who actually knows this Truth does exist. Would you be bothered at all if people had different opinions? You know and they don't. Wouldn't it be just that simple? Would there be any need at all to be upset? And in addition to actually know that just a Truth really exists, imagine if you actually lived it. Wouldn't you then be the living representative of Truth itself. And since that Truth would be the real Truth for all an everyone regardless of their own opinions, would you not expect others to feel that Truth in such an exemplar of such a Truth Being? You might even anticipate that such a person might have an enormous effect on the psyche of other people as like calls to like. Would not many recognize such a person by their fruit? And would not every liar and pretender to that Truth want to speak for that person by using his name, or deny his authenticity and would not the liars within us also also be tempted to affirm lies as fact? Could there be some who know and billions of programmed machines who go by the name of human beings.

 

[Mai72]

Supose there is some sort of something or other, some experience or state of awareness or wisdom or knowledge, something that is actually gives rise to the concept humans have of Truth.

If that is so then whatever that Truth might be, nothing can make it false, and likewise, nothing that is false can ever be that Truth.

My question then would be this. Suppose you are somebody who actually knows this Truth does exist. Would you be bothered at all if people had different opinions? You know and they don't. Wouldn't it be just that simple? Would there be any need at all to be upset? And in addition to actually know that just a Truth really exists, imagine if you actually lived it. Wouldn't you then be the living representative of Truth itself. And since that Truth would be the real Truth for all an everyone regardless of their own opinions, would you not expect others to feel that Truth in such an exemplar of such a Truth Being? You might even anticipate that such a person might have an enormous effect on the psyche of other people as like calls to like. Would not many recognize such a person by their fruit? And would not every liar and pretender to that Truth want to speak for that person by using his name, or deny his authenticity and would not the liars within us also also be tempted to affirm lies as fact? Could there be some who know and billions of programmed machines who go by the name of human beings.

Truth is perception, no? What is true to you but not be recognized as truth to someone else who was born in another culture.

 

[Moonbeam]

Don't forget the OTHER Christian churches... I once drove through a small town in Nebraska that had a billboard probably 6' x 10' that said "If you're going to church on Sunday, you're worshipping SATAN!". I think it was from a Seventh Day Adventist church.

Thank God my local Minister's wife isn't Seventh Day Adventist. Sunday is our day together.

 

[ivwshane]

Supose there is some sort of something or other, some experience or state of awareness or wisdom or knowledge, something that is actually gives rise to the concept humans have of Truth.

If that is so then whatever that Truth might be, nothing can make it false, and likewise, nothing that is false can ever be that Truth.

My question then would be this. Suppose you are somebody who actually knows this Truth does exist. Would you be bothered at all if people had different opinions? You know and they don't. Wouldn't it be just that simple? Would there be any need at all to be upset? And in addition to actually know that just a Truth really exists, imagine if you actually lived it. Wouldn't you then be the living representative of Truth itself. And since that Truth would be the real Truth for all an everyone regardless of their own opinions, would you not expect others to feel that Truth in such an exemplar of such a Truth Being? You might even anticipate that such a person might have an enormous effect on the psyche of other people as like calls to like. Would not many recognize such a person by their fruit? And would not every liar and pretender to that Truth want to speak for that person by using his name, or deny his authenticity and would not the liars within us also also be tempted to affirm lies as fact? Could there be some who know and billions of programmed machines who go by the name of human beings.

Thinking you know the truth and therefore be an exemplar of truth is the height of human arrogance. As we know arrogance breeds ignorance and history certainly confirms that.

 

[kage69]

This is also some good stuff. Richard Carrier on "Why Invent the Jesus."

Richard Carrier on "Why the Gospels are myth."

Great links Mai. So much destruction packed into so little video, I love that he brings up Origen's Gambit. Evangelical onward christian soldier types I used to know in Florida would throw fits when ol Adamantius was brought up. Seems to apply now even more than back then, but then I'm biased to the present most likely.

 

[Moonbeam]

Truth is perception, no? What is true to you but not be recognized as truth to someone else who was born in another culture.

Well I suppose that truth is perception if what you perceive is the truth, but in you are perceiving a toilet roll it just may mean you're about to wipe your ass, no? But I didn't say what is true to me. I said that if what I perceive as truth is Truth then somebody in a different or the same culture as me who disagrees would have to be wrong. The difference would be that I know that and they wouldn't. I can understand you might resent that fact but that wouldn't change it as fact would it? I am further suggestion that how could I resent you being wrong if I know I am right? How would that make any sense. If you know and you know you know, what else is there? 🙂

 

[BlueWeasel]

As a Christian, I don't hesitate to say Bart Erhman's books are excellent. In some ways, reading the bible, teaching Sunday school, and reading his books has weakened my faith, not strengthened it.

It's the people that take the Bible as the inerrant word of God (yet know very little about it) that represent the biggest problems with evangelical conservative Christians. There are many good things in the Bible that are good and worth striving for, but much of it simply represents the mindset of the time and the backwards beliefs of uneducated, gullible people from 2000 years ago.

 

[Mai72]

Great links Mai. So much destruction packed into so little video, I love that he brings up Origen's Gambit. Evangelical onward christian soldier types I used to know in Florida would throw fits when ol Adamantius was brought up. Seems to apply now even more than back then, but then I'm biased to the present most likely.

Thanks. Richard Carrier and Bart Erhman drastically changed my views on Christanity. You should check out the Bart Erhman videos I posted. The heaven and hell one is very interesting.

The fact that hell isn't even brought up in the ancient hebrew text and old testament is a game changer. No one tells you this stuff. I was taught that people are going to hell for not believing in Christ, but Bart tells it differently. He's convinced that Jesus never preached about the Christian hell that is taught today. He's a Jew. Jews don't believe in hell as a place of punishment. I have Jewish friends and they've all said the same thing. They think Christians are insane. lol

 

[Mai72]

As a Christian, I don't hesitate to say Bart Erhman's books are excellent. In some ways, reading the bible, teaching Sunday school, and reading his books has weakened my faith, not strengthened it.

It's the people that take the Bible as the inerrant word of God (yet know very little about it) that represent the biggest problems with evangelical conservative Christians. There are many good things in the Bible that are good and worth striving for, but much of it simply represents the mindset of the time and the backwards beliefs of uneducated, gullible people from 2000 years ago.

What is your opinion of the slavery verses in the bible found in exodus and leviticus? I've listened to both sides. Atheist are quick to jump all over the passages on slavery as proof that the bible is immoral. Christains on the other hand will say that it was a long time ago. And, that biblical slavery was more about servitude, and it's different from the American slave trade of 100 plus years ago.

TBH, I like CosmicSkeptic view on slavery in the bible. He is an atheist.

 

[BlueWeasel]

What is your opinion of the slavery verses in the bible found in exodus and leviticus? I've listened to both sides. Atheist are quick to jump all over the passages on slavery as proof that the bible is immoral. Christains on the other hand will say that it was a long time ago. And, that biblical slavery was more about servitude, and it's different from the American slave trade of 100 plus years ago.

Frankly, I don't put much thought into the old testament laws and views regarding many topics, including slavery. Cherry-picking of particular verses from those books by some Christians is very frustrating for me. They point to verses in Leviticus about homosexuality is an abomination yet ignore verses about eating shellfish and wearing fabrics of different colors being a sin as well.

Picking and choosing verses to attack sinners with is one reason why many are turned off of religion. Simple minded morons who only believe what the preacher says in the pulpit can't handle the bible has errors, contradictions, etc.

 

[Moonbeam]

Thinking you know the truth and therefore be an exemplar of truth is the height of human arrogance. As we know arrogance breeds ignorance and history certainly confirms that.

But if there is a Truth and you know what it is you will also know it is the Truth. There isn't any belief involved there. This is a tough hypothetical to grasp. In order to address it you have to posit the possibility there may be a state of Knowing that confers the certainty that you do in fact know that you know and it is further complicated by the fact that that knowing may actually be knowing you know nothing. In that way only can there be no false unconscious assumptions that are inculcated programmed opinions. I read once this being called the Ground of Being which confers to me a sense of a True Self or Nature, or maybe the full expression of our genetic potential, or the image of God we created Him in, the hand the laws of nature of the universe potentiated within us. Another question you may want to ask is, "What does humility look like to people with ego?". Have you noticed that kindness evokes great suspicion or generosity mistrust? This is why it is imperative you take care around people you help. They will sell you for 30 pieces of silver or for the pleasure of spite.

 

[Amused]

Unfortunately, It's being replaced by religious like membership to the Democratic/Liberal political church.

Bwahahaha. A little projection here, no?

Religion has been replaced with wile batshit conspiracy theories, especially over arching ones like Q-anon, flat earth, derp state and anti-vax. One faith traded for another. The new cult church is the internet and YouTube.

And these have all, in the last 4 years, coalesced under the Trump-GQP banner.

 

[Moonbeam]

God, they say loves us infinitely. What becomes of the religious man who loves God back similarly? And before such love can grow would there not first be a small matter of faith that the object of ones love is real?

The aim of real religion is to manifest our capacity to love. The aim of false religion is to preserve the pride of ego that is the substitute for a real love of self; Say you are loved by God but never allow yourself to feel it.

 

[nakedfrog]

As a Christian, I don't hesitate to say Bart Erhman's books are excellent. In some ways, reading the bible, teaching Sunday school, and reading his books has weakened my faith, not strengthened it.

It's the people that take the Bible as the inerrant word of God (yet know very little about it) that represent the biggest problems with evangelical conservative Christians. There are many good things in the Bible that are good and worth striving for, but much of it simply represents the mindset of the time and the backwards beliefs of uneducated, gullible people from 2000 years ago.

"But it SAYS it's the inerrant word of God, so therefore it is, and it cannot be corrupted by the hand of man" 🙄
Actual argument I've heard.

The fact that hell isn't even brought up in the ancient hebrew text and old testament is a game changer. No one tells you this stuff. I was taught that people are going to hell for not believing in Christ, but Bart tells it differently. He's convinced that Jesus never preached about the Christian hell that is taught today. He's a Jew. Jews don't believe in hell as a place of punishment. I have Jewish friends and they've all said the same thing. They think Christians are insane. lol

Some people will tell you 🙂 It could certainly be wider-spread though. As one of my Christian friends put it, hell is simply not being in the presence of God in the afterlife, which is punishment enough itself.

 

[Mai72]

"But it SAYS it's the inerrant word of God, so therefore it is, and it cannot be corrupted by the hand of man" 🙄
Actual argument I've heard.

Some people will tell you 🙂 It could certainly be wider-spread though. As one of my Christian friends put it, hell is simply not being in the presence of God in the afterlife, which is punishment enough itself.

It could be. I'm listening to Bart Erhman's video on heaven and hell .It's so good, and he clears up a lot of misinformation. His agrument is this: Heaven and Hell, and the punishment/rewards were brought about Greekk philosophers who were dissatisfied with Homer's version that when we die we are all shades. That is, it dosen't matter if you were good or bad. We all share the same fate. This wasn't life after death. This was death after death. Early Jews didn't believe in an afterlife. He then goes on to state that it was that Jews were converting Christians and this is when they took on the Greek version of Hell. That your deeds and time on earth will be the ultimate judge of where you go for eternity. Heaven or hell. I know I'm not telling it exactly how he says it. Check out the video if you want. It's very entertaining, and informative.

Starts at the 12:25 mark.

 

[zzyzxroad]

4) Whose right, and whose wrong?

This has always been the only question for me. I don't think it possible for us to ever answer this question. No one knows how we all got here or what happens after we die. Pretending to have the answers to these things I assume pacifies a fear of the unknown?