This is a good trend for the country

[Pohemi]

This is also wrong.

Fuck off.

 

[VRAMdemon]

I left all organized religion when I was a teenager. I can’t speak for non-Christian religions, but it has been my experience that the various different Christian churches are 90% man made rules and 10% actual theology. For example, “love one another” is an actual theologically based mandate, “don’t eat meat on fridays” is not. That 90% should be subject to change as people become more enlightened.

A whole lot of what many “Christians” think is divine mandate, are really specific regulations or codified traditions proclaimed by the different church bureaucracies or schools of thought over time. To keep using that example, the “real sin” was not the eating of meat per se, it was the disobeying of the Church’s instruction about it because God conveniently says obey your authorities.

 

[JD50]

This is also wrong.

Sounds like you need to read your bible.

 

[VRAMdemon]

Fuck off.

Dude really? ... The guy politely disagreed and you tell him to fuck off. Is this really necessary?

 

[JD50]

I left all organized religion when I was a teenager. I can’t speak for non-Christian religions, but it has been my experience that the various different Christian churches are 90% man made rules and 10% actual theology. For example, “love one another” is an actual theologically based mandate, “don’t eat meat on fridays” is not. That 90% should be subject to change as people become more enlightened.

A whole lot of what many “Christians” think is divine mandate, are really specific regulations or codified traditions proclaimed by the different church bureaucracies or schools of thought over time. To keep using that example, the “real sin” was not the eating of meat per se, it was the disobeying of the Church’s instruction about it because God conveniently says obey your authorities.

Yea, and "love one another" is directly contrasted by things such as endorsing slavery or the subjugation of women. So basically it's bullshit.

 

[mect]

I disagree with pretty much all of this... If a church is teaching you to hate others I wouldn't consider it a church any longer...

You can disagree with it all you want, the facts aren't in your favor. Look at each of these issues and the push towards social acceptance. Churches have always been the driving force pushing back against the changes. Want to give blacks the same rights as whites? Churches are the primary opposition. Blacks carry the curse of Cain. Want to let gays get married. Churches are the primary opposition. Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed due to homosexuality. Want to let people identify by the gender of their preference? Churches say you can't do that. God created Adam and Eve. Want to let women vote? Churches say you can't do that. The bible says women should be silent.

While not all churches oppose these things, almost all opposition to these things comes from churches.

 

[sportage]

The problem with Christians and religion, the Christianity of today will pick and chose what to believe and what not to believe from biblical scripture. Also, too many Christians carry around this attitude that they are superior to the others. They claim to forgive as if they were granted the authority to forgive. And the authority to judge. This is not true Christianity in the biblical sense, and this is why scripture warns of Christians becoming deceived in multitudes by false prophets. And with even that, even that direct warning today’s Christians will not heed because to believe that would expose their deception by false prophecy. That being this unholy alliance between the church and Donald Trump. People seeking religion to better themselves and to better their families would hope to find true religion and not a bunch of Trump worship going on within the Christian church which absolutely is the case today. Church membership is way down today not because of religion but because people are not interested in worshiping Donald Trump on Sunday morning.

 

[BlueWeasel]

Doesn't matter what you would consider it, that's what's happening. Also most of that garbage comes directly from the bible.

I agree that hate and division is pushed in some denominations but they're not all the same. That's one reason I left the Baptist church and would never return. Still a Christian, though.

 

[nakedfrog]

I agree that hate and division is pushed in some denominations but they're not all the same. That's one reason I left the Baptist church and would never return.

Yes, even as someone reviled by the church-as-institution, I'd rather we try to welcome Christians that actually try to follow the loving message than spew vitriol at them the same as their hateful brethren (which only adds fuel to the fire that the hateful ones seek to use against us, to prove they're right and we're the real hateful ones). It's a lot like treating all Muslims poorly because of the behavior of a subset.

 

[Pohemi]

Dude really? ... The guy politely disagreed and you tell him to fuck off. Is this really necessary?

This is also wrong.

He didn't politely disagree, he stated flat-out that someone else's statement was wrong. That's it. Not opinion, but a fact-based statement. That's why he can fuck off.

 

[Majes]

You can disagree with it all you want, the facts aren't in your favor. Look at each of these issues and the push towards social acceptance. Churches have always been the driving force pushing back against the changes. Want to give blacks the same rights as whites? Churches are the primary opposition. Blacks carry the curse of Cain. Want to let gays get married. Churches are the primary opposition. Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed due to homosexuality. Want to let people identify by the gender of their preference? Churches say you can't do that. God created Adam and Eve. Want to let women vote? Churches say you can't do that. The bible says women should be silent.

While not all churches oppose these things, almost all opposition to these things comes from churches.

Yeah, like I said earlier history doesn't view religion in a favorable light. Do you think that churches are still teaching these things? I mean even with the gay marriage issue, the most I hear churches say is that they don't want to be forced to perform the ceremony.

 

[Moonbeam]

Sometimes I think nothing ever improves, it just changes.

The thought crossed my mind that your statement might just be an improved kind of thinking.

 

[JD50]

Yeah, like I said earlier history doesn't view religion in a favorable light. Do you think that churches are still teaching these things? I mean even with the gay marriage issue, the most I hear churches say is that they don't want to be forced to perform the ceremony.

Yes, they are.

 

[mect]

To adapt a phrase I've seen made about mormonism to religion more broadly, "What is good about religion is not unique, and what is unique about religion is not good."

Yeah, like I said earlier history doesn't view religion in a favorable light. Do you think that churches are still teaching these things? I mean even with the gay marriage issue, the most I hear churches say is that they don't want to be forced to perform the ceremony.

Social pressure has pushed churches away from some of these ideas. But the Catholic church still keeps women in a subordinate roll to men in their church. Many churches oppose women's reproductive rights, all the way up to opposing birth control. Many churches still teach that gays are going to hell, and many oppose gay marriage completely. Churches are the main driver opposing transgender rights at the moment.

Yes, you are correct that churches have progressed on these issues. But they have progressed mainly because society has forced them to in an effort to retain membership, not because they were driving progress in society.

 

[Majes]

Yes, they are.

Okay, then that's pretty dangerous.

 

[thilanliyan]

Religion itself isn’t bad it’s the people who push it that make it bad.

Yeah, but there is no religion without people so I'm not sure it can be separated just like that.

IMO if religious texts (written/translated/etc by people) or whatever tell religious people to do evil in the name of their god, then that religion is evil as well.

 

[interchange]

Are the sorts of churches where you have to be a member good for a sense of community? Sure its probably good if you are part of the in group and go with what the church says but if you are part of the out group I bet you don't feel as much part of the community.

The loss of a community where you're shunned or worse if you don't fit in, toe the line, etc...

People not being "members" of churches doesn't mean they're not going to church, or involved in communities, believers, it just means they're not registered members.

Fwiw, churches have enrolled members lists just like any other venue, and when you sign up they expect things out of you. One of those things is tithe, and if you don't follow thru they will harass you or kick you out. You can also give "offering" to curry more favor with the church.

I personally don't see falling church membership directly correlated to less activity in the community. That's a tough one, as different areas of the country are building up and dwindling at different times, and community involvement would have to be assessed with more detailed measurements.

I can say this though, the FYGM attitude that's been a huge factor in politics and religions in the last 50 years has played a part in the communities I'm involved with. So has the trickle down economics lie. People have much less free time to volunteer, and now even when they do have some spare time, the mental conditioning of FYGM means theyre less likely to volunteer.

Churches tend to do best where there's a lack of any other form of community. They seem to be a last-resort safety net against the harshness of life. If they are declining it could potentially be because people don't need them as much as they used to.

The reverse might be the case in China, hence they are growing there.

I will say this. I do not advocate for Church membership per se. It is my observation that, as Church membership degrades, so has the cohesiveness of communities. That said, I have no analysis, and causation would not be proven even should correlation be shown. So I will say that degradation of communities is bad for the US, and in my mind this is at least reflected by decreasing church membership. Should lower church membership be replaced with a different community who acts more neighborly or should those who are somewhat misfit with the church seek to reform it to a more neighborly form of community instead of leaving, we would be in better stead.

 

[ivwshane]

Like this post and almost every other one in P&N? Isn't everybody pushing an agenda, opinion, idea, or "way of life?" This isn't just a religious "problem"... Its a people problem. So are you for pushing ideas or opinions or not? Or are you saying that its only your side or your ideas that come from your camp that should be allowed because you've deemed them "acceptable?"

That said, to the OP, this is only a good trend if you are full of hate. If you aren't full of hate, it shouldn't matter to you if someone goes to church or not.

Life must be difficult for you that basic reading comprehension has to take a back seat.

For one, this is a message board, as in people are free to participate if they want to. What anybody posts on this forum has zero impact on anyone’s life who doesn’t participate here.

Two, this forum, unlike a church, allows for people to voice their own opinions and to question the opinions of others.

Three, nobody here is using their influence to enact policies and laws that affect other people to the same degree as churches do.

 

[ivwshane]

Yes, even as someone reviled by the church-as-institution, I'd rather we try to welcome Christians that actually try to follow the loving message than spew vitriol at them the same as their hateful brethren (which only adds fuel to the fire that the hateful ones seek to use against us, to prove they're right and we're the real hateful ones). It's a lot like treating all Muslims poorly because of the behavior of a subset.

I’m not aware of anyone or any entity spewing vitriol towards Christians. Just because people are anti religion (or in my case, anti organized religion) doesn’t mean they hate all religious people.

 

[ivwshane]

I will say this. I do not advocate for Church membership per se. It is my observation that, as Church membership degrades, so has the cohesiveness of communities. That said, I have no analysis, and causation would not be proven even should correlation be shown. So I will say that degradation of communities is bad for the US, and in my mind this is at least reflected by decreasing church membership. Should lower church membership be replaced with a different community who acts more neighborly or should those who are somewhat misfit with the church seek to reform it to a more neighborly form of community instead of leaving, we would be in better stead.

What you advocate for is what republicans have been advocating against and demeaning for decades, the liberal institutions, like community centers, the arts, and support for communities in general from the government.

 

[interchange]

What you advocate for is what republicans have been advocating against and demeaning for decades, the liberal institutions, like community centers, the arts, and support for communities in general from the government.

Those are good examples of community, yes.

 

[nakedfrog]

Yeah, like I said earlier history doesn't view religion in a favorable light. Do you think that churches are still teaching these things? I mean even with the gay marriage issue, the most I hear churches say is that they don't want to be forced to perform the ceremony.

Oh yes, they absolutely are. They're teaching that my lifestyle is "an affront to god".

 

[nakedfrog]

I’m not aware of anyone or any entity spewing vitriol towards Christians. Just because people are anti religion (or in my case, anti organized religion) doesn’t mean they hate all religious people.

Well, people are, and yes, I agree that just because people are anti-religion doesn't automatically mean they hate all religious people.

 

[pmv]

There is a difference between pushing policy based on opinions and pushing policy based on solid evidence. Religion falls squarely in the former.

I think ultimately all policy ideas are going to involve some element of opinion, because people can have differing value systems, different ideas about what is good and how we should relate to each other.

The problem when religion gets involved is, more than anything, for me, the having-your-cake-and-eating-it approach that says "we are going to push this worldly political agenda because our religion tells us to - but our religion is outside and above politics and hence it's unfair and illegitimate to criticise it in the way one would any other political ideology*". American Christians seem to have completely abandoned that whole "render unto Caesar..." thing, in favour of trying to have it both ways (though it always was a potentially incoherent and question-begging principle - at least Jesus was acknowledging there was an issue there).

* "oh, and also we should get special tax-breaks"

 

[FireMarshallBill]

I believe it was GK Chesterton who said "When a man stops believing in God, he doesn't believe in nothing, he believes in a crackpot conspiracy theory and a bright orange narcissist". (I may have misremembered the quote)

"And the people bowed and prayed
to the neon [orange] god they made"