Than why would the guy not mention it? Really think this through here.
The US kidnapped and raped and tortured a german citizen. Refused to notify Germany according to his story. This is what is public, yet Germany will not even release anything. Not even a back down but keep face statement of condoning but we are working with American authorities like usually happens. Germany is not some third world country. I think this guys story is bs. And the government is right to give him the finger instead of making there practices public to a bs story.
- Jan 26, 2000
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Ok, you think it's BS. Im leaning that way. Now do you KNOW it is? Is there a way that it can be determined as it is? If the government bothered to show up for this, why didn't they bother to investigate and show it's crap? Again, you know this didn't happen how?
Whoozyerdaddy
Lifer
- Jun 27, 2005
- 19,216
- 1
- 61
You don't have to hold a hearing to answer that question. I just get suspicious when I read an article that is full of allegations and short on answers. The link is basically a bunch of allegations with no supporting information. The whole point of a news story is to answer the who, what, when, where, why and how questions that I'm asking now. The link leaves you with most of those questions unanswered.
I guess what I'm trying to get at is... was he just sitting in his back yard in Plano, TX, having a beer and minding his own business and turning the 'dogs on his barbeque when the FBI showed up and whisked him off to a secret prison in Afghanistan OR was he picked up on a raid of a Taliban camp?
Now that doesn't excuse his alleged mistreatment, but I'd be curious to know how he came be in the custody of the US and what proof he has of his mistreatment. If you're making kidnapping and false imprisonment charges there should be some sort of story to go along with the charges.
I don't, neither do you. The problem is, if this guy even has a chance of proving it, I would think that Germany would protect or at least give a saving face to a German national. I mean, Germany has pretty good relations with the US, even a token statement could be used. I mean, even Germany could have asked for a closed door, sealed, classified documment hearing. What this looks like is this guy is bs'ing. Making a sensational story to garnish press (Iran making Jews wear yellow?) . You are right, I don't know, We will never know, but in this case, with the US would be forced to disclose how it goes about capturing/handling potential terrorist/enemies I think we can safely assume this guy's story is bs.
or he was captured by a bounty hunter in afghanistan in return for money from the US with no confirmation that the man was the man who the bounty hunters said he was, untill a few years later
not for the first time and not for the last time that has happened
I'm actually agreeing with you
Well, sort of. We have too little information here to make an intelligent decision, which makes the judge blocking a trial all the more puzzling.Uh, that's what a court of law is for. The idea is presumed innocent until proven guilty. If there is no forum in which to prove someone guilty, it just becomes "presumed innocent"...and I don't think most of us want that kind of system.
arent we acting like saddam regime now? so why do we even bother to topple saddam in iraq? what's next, are we also gonna gas those muslims as well? wake up people!
Orignal Earl
Diamond Member
- Oct 27, 2005
- 8,059
- 55
- 86
Here's the timeline for the Canadian that basically had the same thing happen to him.
Maher Arar: Timeline
The definition of evil (I happen to agree with):
"A lack of empathy. A genine incapacity to feel with their fellow man. Evil, I think is the absence of empathy." -Nuremberg
"A lack of empathy. A genine incapacity to feel with their fellow man. Evil, I think is the absence of empathy." -Nuremberg
Accurate, but incomplete. What's left out is WHY...and most often the answer is that it's not a matter of empathy for your fellow man, it's an inability to see the object of your evil as a person at all. Every bit of evil in history begins with the dehumanization of your opponent, whether from religious, social, racial, whatever reasons, the evildoer paints the target as someone not quite human, and therefore an inappropriate target for compassion.
?In the present circumstances, al-Masri?s private interests must give way to the national interest in preserving state secrets,? Ellis wrote.
Truer words could not have come from any German court room in the 1930s and 40s.
Truer words could not have come from any German court room in the 1930s and 40s.
I know as well as anyone that governments need to have some secrets to properly function, but if the phrase "state secrets" doesn't send a momentary shiver down your spine, you should really rethink your world view.
Why depends on the circumstances but I think some factors are common. I also took this from Nuremberg as it was a more complete answer then what I had and again I agree with it.
-The country has to be one where the people do what they are told. You are brought up as a child not to question authority. You obey your parents, teachers, clergymen, superior officers and the government.
-The nation is bombarded with propaganda to dehumanize whomever the oppenent happens to be.
For Germany that was whomever was a Jew, Homosexual, Jehovah's Witness', Communist etc.
What we are seeing is a far more effective object. Terrorist. Anyone can be a terrorist regardless of race or creed. If right now today your parents were labeled as terrorists they would likely loose their friends and the only ones likely to belieave them is their own family and a select others.
Thankfully western nations are not an identical template to Nazi Germany and such moves are not 100% effective. If they were there would likely be mass disapearances and renditions.
Hopefully with us constantly questioning and educating others we can prevent it from ever taking the exact same form as Nazi Germany eventually became.
Sadly we are far closer to crossing that line then I ever care to imagine. It's an increadible shame considering what not just as nations but as Humanity itself have fought so hard against and gave up so much to try to wipe out.
Originally posted by: Rainsford
I'm actually agreeing with you
Makes you wonder if they knew the guy was dirty , but simply could not prove it...either way he would be due reparations at the least..
Quote
Ellis, at the end of his ruling, writes that ?putting aside all the legal issues, if al-Masri?s allegations are true or substantially true, then all fair-minded people ... must also agree that al-Masri has suffered injuries as the result of our country?s mistake and deserves a remedy.?
But Ellis said that remedy must come from Congress or the executive branch, not the judiciary.
Wizner said the Bush administration has not yet offered any financial settlement.
A Justice Department spokesman said the judge?s ruling is under review and
- Jan 26, 2000
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Here is a nice one.
>> When one party throws down the gauntlet and declares all out war on the only other major political party, and will accept nothing less than a permanent majority, how would you expect the party under attack to react?
Shrug.. If I were to loose a election I would not consider that a attack, I would see it as a vote against my position. A reasoned man would re-consider his position, a FUD scum dragger would claim the election was stolen by scum who used deceit and the anti-christ of almighty oil and cash to feed their evil begotten election marking the beggining of Armegeddon soon to be followed by the end of the earth.
>> Need I remind you who started this "all out attack"?
Yes you do. The lib idea of a attack is a hand-shake request from someone they don't trust. They will never trust anyone outside of their circle of lib trust.
>> Tom Delay, Karl Rove and the K Street Project are intent on relegating the democratic party to the sidelines, permanently or for a generation or two at least. Based on the way the repubs play when they have the upper hand, I shudder to think how Delay, Rove, Santorum, Gingrinch and the rest of the repub braintrust would react if they were backed into a corner.
Please separate what they might do from what they have done or are doing. Guilty of accepting donations for ther party, yes, guilty of wanting to win elections, yes, guilty of spending too much on welfare programs, yes. What else have they done that leads you to this what if black helicopter argument.
>> I see no evidence of the dem's attacking the military. But since corporate America has demonstrated to whom their allegiance is owed, what do the dem's have to lose by alienating them? What have they done for the American economy? Certainly less than the small business men and women of this country.
If you don't see evidence of dems attacking our military, me pointing it out won't help you. I invite you to talk to random in uniform soldiers the next chance you get, it will be a eye opener. I don't see a purpose to all out attack on either the American corporations or small businesses. I support both and agree like most republicans that small business needs protections against monopolies by large corporations. For every bad large medium or small company one can point to many more good ones. Good news does not make good lib press or sell like the tabloids and would help the republican case so must be ignored by the left or called lies. Bet you wish the economy was tanking like you were promissed by Kerry/Kennedy.
>> Corporate America deserves a seat at the table. They don't deserve the seat, table, room and house though. Is it un-American to want the mom and pop business's to have the same support and representation as a Fortune 500 company?
No, on this point we can all agree. What we don't agree with is the lib left fabrication that we don't agree.
>> As for dem's divulging national secrets, there are plenty of folks that are guilty of this. Cheney, Libby, Rove and Bush are even involved. What was the damage to our intelligence on Iran when Bush declassified part of the report that revealed Plames identity? Regardless of whether or not that was responsible or rational, it seems that it was very likely counter-productive to the interests of national security.
This is extremely petty, it's like comparing a pin to a nuclear weapon, a sinful glance to a 10year affair, a rolls eyes to a terrorist attack. Plume is a political activist turned political appointed mole turned political activist turned political book writer who had / has political ties to political newspapers. PULLEEESE tell me you don't think this is a obvious small group (ring) of libs who are blaming the republicans for calling them out in a conversation to the (ring) for what they were doing. They were getting no traction on the issue at hand so they make up some spin based on a recent MI movie like someone gave up the noc list. The only thing that happened here was libs using nepotism to assign libs to a investigation against our security forces followed by someone from the potus on questioning from the ring may have mentioned a fact that the ring obviously already knew which was that Plume got her husband the job of investigating our investigation. WTF PULESE why don't you continue to make a mountain out of this mole hill. Surely the libs can continue to point to this as the downfall of humanity. But the reality is that this is a waste of billions of dollars of our time and resources to investigate why we think nepotism is a bad way to start investigations against your sworn enemy if you dont' want to get called out.
>> Dem's don't have the market cornered on skeptisism. The only thing hold the repubs together these days is the party discipline to circle the wagons and protect the money bag.
Bull beloved patriot. Dems do have the market cornered this is why you are loosing elections. Negative we are heading to hell attitudes based solely on the loss of a few recent elections, will not win against Positive attitudes based on facts. Lib continual association of Republicans to money ignores the fact that lib leaders have even more money than the ones you complain about.
>> And as long as they can keep us at each others throats, they are free to do whatever their owners tell them to do.
Libs are at the throats of Republicans. Republicans are at the throats of those that would attack our country, while constantly having to wipe the sht off and flush the crp the libs keep making up. Surely you see the difference and are not that blind.
>> Us common folk don't really enter into the big picture. We are mostly an inconvenience.
Lib: We are all in hell and theres nothing we can do to fix it because we don't count and can't stop the sky from falling
Reb: Life is good but everyone counts and we're gonna have to keep working hard to stop libs & other terrorists from trying to bring their own private hell down on us.
>> When one party throws down the gauntlet and declares all out war on the only other major political party, and will accept nothing less than a permanent majority, how would you expect the party under attack to react?
Shrug.. If I were to loose a election I would not consider that a attack, I would see it as a vote against my position. A reasoned man would re-consider his position, a FUD scum dragger would claim the election was stolen by scum who used deceit and the anti-christ of almighty oil and cash to feed their evil begotten election marking the beggining of Armegeddon soon to be followed by the end of the earth.
>> Need I remind you who started this "all out attack"?
Yes you do. The lib idea of a attack is a hand-shake request from someone they don't trust. They will never trust anyone outside of their circle of lib trust.
>> Tom Delay, Karl Rove and the K Street Project are intent on relegating the democratic party to the sidelines, permanently or for a generation or two at least. Based on the way the repubs play when they have the upper hand, I shudder to think how Delay, Rove, Santorum, Gingrinch and the rest of the repub braintrust would react if they were backed into a corner.
Please separate what they might do from what they have done or are doing. Guilty of accepting donations for ther party, yes, guilty of wanting to win elections, yes, guilty of spending too much on welfare programs, yes. What else have they done that leads you to this what if black helicopter argument.
>> I see no evidence of the dem's attacking the military. But since corporate America has demonstrated to whom their allegiance is owed, what do the dem's have to lose by alienating them? What have they done for the American economy? Certainly less than the small business men and women of this country.
If you don't see evidence of dems attacking our military, me pointing it out won't help you. I invite you to talk to random in uniform soldiers the next chance you get, it will be a eye opener. I don't see a purpose to all out attack on either the American corporations or small businesses. I support both and agree like most republicans that small business needs protections against monopolies by large corporations. For every bad large medium or small company one can point to many more good ones. Good news does not make good lib press or sell like the tabloids and would help the republican case so must be ignored by the left or called lies. Bet you wish the economy was tanking like you were promissed by Kerry/Kennedy.
>> Corporate America deserves a seat at the table. They don't deserve the seat, table, room and house though. Is it un-American to want the mom and pop business's to have the same support and representation as a Fortune 500 company?
No, on this point we can all agree. What we don't agree with is the lib left fabrication that we don't agree.
>> As for dem's divulging national secrets, there are plenty of folks that are guilty of this. Cheney, Libby, Rove and Bush are even involved. What was the damage to our intelligence on Iran when Bush declassified part of the report that revealed Plames identity? Regardless of whether or not that was responsible or rational, it seems that it was very likely counter-productive to the interests of national security.
This is extremely petty, it's like comparing a pin to a nuclear weapon, a sinful glance to a 10year affair, a rolls eyes to a terrorist attack. Plume is a political activist turned political appointed mole turned political activist turned political book writer who had / has political ties to political newspapers. PULLEEESE tell me you don't think this is a obvious small group (ring) of libs who are blaming the republicans for calling them out in a conversation to the (ring) for what they were doing. They were getting no traction on the issue at hand so they make up some spin based on a recent MI movie like someone gave up the noc list. The only thing that happened here was libs using nepotism to assign libs to a investigation against our security forces followed by someone from the potus on questioning from the ring may have mentioned a fact that the ring obviously already knew which was that Plume got her husband the job of investigating our investigation. WTF PULESE why don't you continue to make a mountain out of this mole hill. Surely the libs can continue to point to this as the downfall of humanity. But the reality is that this is a waste of billions of dollars of our time and resources to investigate why we think nepotism is a bad way to start investigations against your sworn enemy if you dont' want to get called out.
>> Dem's don't have the market cornered on skeptisism. The only thing hold the repubs together these days is the party discipline to circle the wagons and protect the money bag.
Bull beloved patriot. Dems do have the market cornered this is why you are loosing elections. Negative we are heading to hell attitudes based solely on the loss of a few recent elections, will not win against Positive attitudes based on facts. Lib continual association of Republicans to money ignores the fact that lib leaders have even more money than the ones you complain about.
>> And as long as they can keep us at each others throats, they are free to do whatever their owners tell them to do.
Libs are at the throats of Republicans. Republicans are at the throats of those that would attack our country, while constantly having to wipe the sht off and flush the crp the libs keep making up. Surely you see the difference and are not that blind.
>> Us common folk don't really enter into the big picture. We are mostly an inconvenience.
Lib: We are all in hell and theres nothing we can do to fix it because we don't count and can't stop the sky from falling
Reb: Life is good but everyone counts and we're gonna have to keep working hard to stop libs & other terrorists from trying to bring their own private hell down on us.
I hope they pick you up, spirit you off to a secret CIA prison, beat and sodomize you, and then you can tell us all how "quite proper" the actions of the bush administration are.
If they can do this to one person, they can do it to anyone.
This, America, is what we now stand for. We should all be so very proud.
He is likely the one that would be doing the renditioning and sodomizing. Not the other way around.
Jeff7
Lifer
- Jan 4, 2001
- 41,596
- 20
- 81
Which is why no one should be held or tortured without a warrant or a trial, respectively. They are innocent until a jury and judge in a court decides that they are guilty. The Geneva Convention prohibits torturing prisoners of war. The fact that we have to term them "enemy combatants" proves how little concern the administration has for human rights. A treaty exists to guarantee basic human decency, but this administration willfully finds ways to bypass it. That is both frightening and appalling.
How far we've come.....I believe it was in World War II, when parts of the German army were surrounded by Russians and American forces. They preferred to surrended to the Americans because they knew we'd treat them like human beings. Now we have digressed to an administration which has no problem with imprisoning and spying on its own citizens.
spiegel
Feb 2005
Feb 2005
So there's no doubt the CIA violated this guy's rights and as a violation of the Geneva Convention . . . violated US law. When did the judicial branch of government become the defender of "state secrets", violations of international treaties, and total disregard of basic human rights?
that definitely sounds like the Bush Regime.
I hope this guy wins an ICC case against Bush, Rumsfeld, Goss, and Tenet.
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