Thinking of joining the military

[KillerCharlie]

Originally posted by: PowerMacG5
Well, I've reached a point in my life where I realized that I dont think I could handle a normal 9-5 job, and am going nuts since I've been on co-op working a "normal" job as a software tester, and then systems administrator.

I was thinking a military career could be a good thing. I wouldn't enlist, rather I would want to go to OCS/OTS and become an officer with a commission. The only two branches I would consider are the Marine Corps, and the Air Force.

First thing I need to do is get my weight down, and am on my way to doing that. For my height, I need to lose 60 pounds for the Marines, and 90 pounds for the Air Force. Since I started watching my food intake, I have lost 10 pounds. I also want to finish my Bachelors before I start, this way I don't have to worry about school, and training at the same time.

Just curious for opinions from others who have done the same. Which branch would you recommend? Also, what kind of job would I be looking at as an officer? I know enlisted men are generally the infantrymen, and muscle of the military, and such, but when it comes to officer jobs and responsibilities, what is it like?

Thanks for all your help.

They don't care much about fitness in the air force - that's something you should be able to work through in their basic officer training.

Here's a much more important question for the air force: What's your gpa?

 

[PowerMacG5]

Originally posted by: HomeAppraiser
You graduate in two years so try ROTC to ease into it.

The problem is, first I need to lose the weight before I can do ROTC, which means I would be able to join that no less than 8 months from now (thats pushing it). If I want to lose the weight in a healthy manner, it will take probably a year.

Originally posted by: roguerower
Obviously I'm gonna say Semper Fi, and I'm posting this without first reading what has already been said, but it's all about what you want to do. The Corps can be very intesnse and if you can't handle a 9-5 job at the moment, I doubt you'll do well in the Corps because it's usually a 0600-1900 (6-7) job. If you're interested in the Corps, PM me and I'll explain it to you. I am presently a Marine Option ROTC MIDN and will be attending OCS in 2 years (errr).

As for the Air Force (ahem...chair force), they are much more technical. I don't know much about them, but I can tell you that my roommate this year was Air Force ROTC and I would have loved to have it easy like him.

For instance: One day I came back from PT (6 mile ruck hump). As I walked into my room soaked with sweat from all my gear, he was just getting out of his PT gear (we had PT on the same days). I asked him what Air Force had done for PT that morning. His answer: Dodgeball. I refused to speak to him for the rest of the day.

When I saw I can't handle a 9-5 job, what I mean is the monotony of it, not the work itself.

Is it really that hard to get a pilots seat in the AF? That is one of the main things drawing me there. The research and whatnot they do is cool, but what I really have always wanted to be was a fighter pilot.

 

[PowerMacG5]

Originally posted by: KillerCharlie

Originally posted by: PowerMacG5
Well, I've reached a point in my life where I realized that I dont think I could handle a normal 9-5 job, and am going nuts since I've been on co-op working a "normal" job as a software tester, and then systems administrator.

I was thinking a military career could be a good thing. I wouldn't enlist, rather I would want to go to OCS/OTS and become an officer with a commission. The only two branches I would consider are the Marine Corps, and the Air Force.

First thing I need to do is get my weight down, and am on my way to doing that. For my height, I need to lose 60 pounds for the Marines, and 90 pounds for the Air Force. Since I started watching my food intake, I have lost 10 pounds. I also want to finish my Bachelors before I start, this way I don't have to worry about school, and training at the same time.

Just curious for opinions from others who have done the same. Which branch would you recommend? Also, what kind of job would I be looking at as an officer? I know enlisted men are generally the infantrymen, and muscle of the military, and such, but when it comes to officer jobs and responsibilities, what is it like?

Thanks for all your help.

They don't care much about fitness in the air force - that's something you should be able to work through in their basic officer training.

Here's a much more important question for the air force: What's your gpa?

My GPA is 3.91 after 4 semesters of school (3 active, 1 co-op). I've only had one B since I've been in school (ECON), everything else has been an A. My grades are a non-issue at the moment.

Also, in terms of fitness, every time I have contacted ROTC on my campus, they have told me I need to be within around 10 pounds of their ideal weight. Are they less restrictive when you go through a recruiter? Also, I really would like a rated seat, and don't know if I really would consider AF without even the possibility of becoming a pilot.

 

[quentinterintino]

Originally posted by: PowerMacG5

Originally posted by: HomeAppraiser
You graduate in two years so try ROTC to ease into it.

The problem is, first I need to lose the weight before I can do ROTC, which means I would be able to join that no less than 8 months from now (thats pushing it). If I want to lose the weight in a healthy manner, it will take probably a year.

Originally posted by: roguerower
Obviously I'm gonna say Semper Fi, and I'm posting this without first reading what has already been said, but it's all about what you want to do. The Corps can be very intesnse and if you can't handle a 9-5 job at the moment, I doubt you'll do well in the Corps because it's usually a 0600-1900 (6-7) job. If you're interested in the Corps, PM me and I'll explain it to you. I am presently a Marine Option ROTC MIDN and will be attending OCS in 2 years (errr).

As for the Air Force (ahem...chair force), they are much more technical. I don't know much about them, but I can tell you that my roommate this year was Air Force ROTC and I would have loved to have it easy like him.

For instance: One day I came back from PT (6 mile ruck hump). As I walked into my room soaked with sweat from all my gear, he was just getting out of his PT gear (we had PT on the same days). I asked him what Air Force had done for PT that morning. His answer: Dodgeball. I refused to speak to him for the rest of the day.

When I saw I can't handle a 9-5 job, what I mean is the monotony of it, not the work itself.

Is it really that hard to get a pilots seat in the AF? That is one of the main things drawing me there. The research and whatnot they do is cool, but what I really have always wanted to be was a fighter pilot.

Yes, it really is that hard.

Get your Private Pilot Certificate, and see if you even like flying first. This will also boost your chances by upping your "PCSM" score.

FYI :
Air Force Weight Chart
Height Maximum Weight Minimum Weight
58 131 91
59 136 94
60 141 97
61 145 100
62 150 104
63 155 107
64 160 110
65 165 114
66 170 117
67 175 121
68 180 125
69 186 128
70 191 132
71 197 136
72 202 140
73 208 144
74 214 148
75 220 152
76 225 156
77 231 160
78 237 164
79 244 168
80 250 173

To be a pilot, you must be near the top of everything: grades, physical activity, and community service. You've got 1/3 taken care of, work on the rest and good luck to you.

p.s. take what the recruiter tells you with a grain of salt - they don't get quota credit for officers, only enlisted

 

[roguerower]

My best friends older brother currently has an Air Force pilots slot. He will be a senior this year. He has decent grades, but where he really pulled it out was in his leadership. He's done just about everything he can in his ROTC unit. I think the only leadership spot he hasn't held is the regimental commander.

 

[Rent]

Originally posted by: PowerMacG5

Originally posted by: KillerCharlie

Originally posted by: PowerMacG5
Well, I've reached a point in my life where I realized that I dont think I could handle a normal 9-5 job, and am going nuts since I've been on co-op working a "normal" job as a software tester, and then systems administrator.

I was thinking a military career could be a good thing. I wouldn't enlist, rather I would want to go to OCS/OTS and become an officer with a commission. The only two branches I would consider are the Marine Corps, and the Air Force.

First thing I need to do is get my weight down, and am on my way to doing that. For my height, I need to lose 60 pounds for the Marines, and 90 pounds for the Air Force. Since I started watching my food intake, I have lost 10 pounds. I also want to finish my Bachelors before I start, this way I don't have to worry about school, and training at the same time.

Just curious for opinions from others who have done the same. Which branch would you recommend? Also, what kind of job would I be looking at as an officer? I know enlisted men are generally the infantrymen, and muscle of the military, and such, but when it comes to officer jobs and responsibilities, what is it like?

Thanks for all your help.

They don't care much about fitness in the air force - that's something you should be able to work through in their basic officer training.

Here's a much more important question for the air force: What's your gpa?

My GPA is 3.91 after 4 semesters of school (3 active, 1 co-op). I've only had one B since I've been in school (ECON), everything else has been an A. My grades are a non-issue at the moment.

Also, in terms of fitness, every time I have contacted ROTC on my campus, they have told me I need to be within around 10 pounds of their ideal weight. Are they less restrictive when you go through a recruiter? Also, I really would like a rated seat, and don't know if I really would consider AF without even the possibility of becoming a pilot.

Just think of it this way - if you are 10 pounds over the max weight for your height, its less work for whatever instructor or recruiter to do to actually get you in. There are waivers and whatnot, but if you join up 60+ lbs and you have a waiver, you'll be strictly dieted and have to do extra PT.

Pilots have to be in excellent shape FYI. Again, talk to a recruiter if you are serious.

roguerower - Easy there motivator... I wouldn't be calling any branch of the service names until you're actually in one. We crack jokes all the time about other branches, but thats one of those things you earn.

 

[Rent]

Originally posted by: savoyboy

Originally posted by: roguerower

Originally posted by: savoyboy

Originally posted by: mwmorph
Which is a better careerpath as far as promotion oppurtunities go(Army, Marines, AF)?

Also, anyone in the AF can tell exactly how hard it is to make pilot? Also any sort of orther action positions in the Airforce like special forces?

I hear it's hard to get a pilot position in the AF.

AF has Aircombat Controllers and Pararescue Jumpers. Tough guys.

Two words: Force Recon.

Sry, for the multiple posts.

I have no doubt about the ability of Force Recon and what they can do. But Force Recon is not even part of USSOCOM. They get very little funding and their missions are not high in priority as other SOF in the military.

No, but MARSOC is part of SOCOM now. Most of MARSOC is previous Force Recon. Thats why the requirements to get into regular Recon have become more lax as of recent (or at least thats the rumor).

 

[BoomerD]

FWIW, there was an article a few months ago in the local paper about officers, and they stated that so far, in the Iraq war, Marine Captains are the most often killed officers in any branch of the military. We lost quite a few in Vietnam as well. GOOD captains don't sit in a desk back in the rear areas, they're out with their troops.

 

[b0mbrman]

Originally posted by: savoyboy

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: thepd7

Originally posted by: savoyboy

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: savoyboy

Originally posted by: PowerMacG5

Originally posted by: Red Dawn
If I were you I'd wait until Bush and his fellow assholes are out of office. No use dying for those jerk offs failed foriegn policies

Was already planning on doing that. Yay for graduating school in 2008. All I have to do is hold out a few months to see which side wins the election, and I can decide fully on what I want to do.

It's always good to plan well in advance, especially on a life changing decision like this.

the military isn't for you if you do it solely for political reasons or whoever is in the White House. You'll find it really quick that most people in the militay don't give a ratass about politics.

Unless the politics gets them stationed in some sandy sh!thole populated by uncivilized animals who hate Americans fighting a BS war based on lies and half truths.

yes. because we all know armed forces is about sitting around a camp fire singing kumbaya.

thanks for reminding me. i did not know military people have to go to war

lol pwned. Anyone who enters the military/reserves that isn't 100% willing to fight at their commander-in-chief's request shouldn't have gotten in. And btw, since I know Red Dawn is about to say "they didn't know that they would be fighting for this" or "they didn't know the commander-in-chief would be a moron," the oath they take does not make conditions for that. They knew that whenever they took the oath.

Hence the advice to wait.

Good luck to you on that. I enlisted in early 2000 when I was 17 years old and this was 3 years before OIF. I did not join the military to invade Iraq. I don't like Bush and his stupid war in Iraq, but i'm not going to let my political view to interfere with my duty.

To make it short, military and politics do not mix. People who bring politics into military make lousy troops. They should never joined in the first place.

Please explain

Because I don't feel lousy

 

[roguerower]

Originally posted by: Rent

Originally posted by: PowerMacG5

Originally posted by: KillerCharlie

Originally posted by: PowerMacG5
Well, I've reached a point in my life where I realized that I dont think I could handle a normal 9-5 job, and am going nuts since I've been on co-op working a "normal" job as a software tester, and then systems administrator.

I was thinking a military career could be a good thing. I wouldn't enlist, rather I would want to go to OCS/OTS and become an officer with a commission. The only two branches I would consider are the Marine Corps, and the Air Force.

First thing I need to do is get my weight down, and am on my way to doing that. For my height, I need to lose 60 pounds for the Marines, and 90 pounds for the Air Force. Since I started watching my food intake, I have lost 10 pounds. I also want to finish my Bachelors before I start, this way I don't have to worry about school, and training at the same time.

Just curious for opinions from others who have done the same. Which branch would you recommend? Also, what kind of job would I be looking at as an officer? I know enlisted men are generally the infantrymen, and muscle of the military, and such, but when it comes to officer jobs and responsibilities, what is it like?

Thanks for all your help.

They don't care much about fitness in the air force - that's something you should be able to work through in their basic officer training.

Here's a much more important question for the air force: What's your gpa?

My GPA is 3.91 after 4 semesters of school (3 active, 1 co-op). I've only had one B since I've been in school (ECON), everything else has been an A. My grades are a non-issue at the moment.

Also, in terms of fitness, every time I have contacted ROTC on my campus, they have told me I need to be within around 10 pounds of their ideal weight. Are they less restrictive when you go through a recruiter? Also, I really would like a rated seat, and don't know if I really would consider AF without even the possibility of becoming a pilot.

Just think of it this way - if you are 10 pounds over the max weight for your height, its less work for whatever instructor or recruiter to do to actually get you in. There are waivers and whatnot, but if you join up 60+ lbs and you have a waiver, you'll be strictly dieted and have to do extra PT.

Pilots have to be in excellent shape FYI. Again, talk to a recruiter if you are serious.

roguerower - Easy there motivator... I wouldn't be calling any branch of the service names until you're actually in one. We crack jokes all the time about other branches, but thats one of those things you earn.

Sry. Just sometimes get carried away. In all reality, it's all about what you want to do. If you're feeling more technical, then go with Air Force. If rolling in the mud is your thing, USMC. BTW, if you attend Marine Corps boot camp, you never have to attend another boot as long as you live.

 

[b0mbrman]

Originally posted by: savoyboy

Originally posted by: b0mbrman

Originally posted by: savoyboy

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: thepd7

Originally posted by: savoyboy

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: savoyboy

Originally posted by: PowerMacG5

Originally posted by: Red Dawn
If I were you I'd wait until Bush and his fellow assholes are out of office. No use dying for those jerk offs failed foriegn policies

Was already planning on doing that. Yay for graduating school in 2008. All I have to do is hold out a few months to see which side wins the election, and I can decide fully on what I want to do.

It's always good to plan well in advance, especially on a life changing decision like this.

the military isn't for you if you do it solely for political reasons or whoever is in the White House. You'll find it really quick that most people in the militay don't give a ratass about politics.

Unless the politics gets them stationed in some sandy sh!thole populated by uncivilized animals who hate Americans fighting a BS war based on lies and half truths.

yes. because we all know armed forces is about sitting around a camp fire singing kumbaya.

thanks for reminding me. i did not know military people have to go to war

lol pwned. Anyone who enters the military/reserves that isn't 100% willing to fight at their commander-in-chief's request shouldn't have gotten in. And btw, since I know Red Dawn is about to say "they didn't know that they would be fighting for this" or "they didn't know the commander-in-chief would be a moron," the oath they take does not make conditions for that. They knew that whenever they took the oath.

Hence the advice to wait.

Good luck to you on that. I enlisted in early 2000 when I was 17 years old and this was 3 years before OIF. I did not join the military to invade Iraq. I don't like Bush and his stupid war in Iraq, but i'm not going to let my political view to interfere with my duty.

To make it short, military and politics do not mix. People who bring politics into military make lousy troops. They should never joined in the first place.

Please explain

Because I don't feel lousy

Text

Text

Text

Well, I'll say it again, I don't feel lousy.

Furthermore, the soldiers I've had who've followed politics closely and had strong political opinions have been among the best at what they do, regardless of MOS (perhaps because, on average, they also had a bit more civilian education)

Maybe what you meant to say was that cowardice and military don't mix? Might encompass more of the real world because I've seen way more deserters/AWOLs than actual conscientious objectors.

 

[jlbenedict]

Originally posted by: chowmein

i heard one time an officer got extra pay because he stayed at an army base which had "sub-standard living conditions."

Because anything less than silk sheets is considered substandard to the Air Force..

The Air Force are the pu$$ies of the entire military force.

 

[BoomerD]

Originally posted by: savoyboy

Originally posted by: b0mbrman

Originally posted by: savoyboy

Originally posted by: b0mbrman

Originally posted by: savoyboy

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: thepd7

Originally posted by: savoyboy

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: savoyboy

Originally posted by: PowerMacG5

Originally posted by: Red Dawn
If I were you I'd wait until Bush and his fellow assholes are out of office. No use dying for those jerk offs failed foriegn policies

Was already planning on doing that. Yay for graduating school in 2008. All I have to do is hold out a few months to see which side wins the election, and I can decide fully on what I want to do.

It's always good to plan well in advance, especially on a life changing decision like this.

the military isn't for you if you do it solely for political reasons or whoever is in the White House. You'll find it really quick that most people in the militay don't give a ratass about politics.

Unless the politics gets them stationed in some sandy sh!thole populated by uncivilized animals who hate Americans fighting a BS war based on lies and half truths.

yes. because we all know armed forces is about sitting around a camp fire singing kumbaya.

thanks for reminding me. i did not know military people have to go to war

lol pwned. Anyone who enters the military/reserves that isn't 100% willing to fight at their commander-in-chief's request shouldn't have gotten in. And btw, since I know Red Dawn is about to say "they didn't know that they would be fighting for this" or "they didn't know the commander-in-chief would be a moron," the oath they take does not make conditions for that. They knew that whenever they took the oath.

Hence the advice to wait.

Good luck to you on that. I enlisted in early 2000 when I was 17 years old and this was 3 years before OIF. I did not join the military to invade Iraq. I don't like Bush and his stupid war in Iraq, but i'm not going to let my political view to interfere with my duty.

To make it short, military and politics do not mix. People who bring politics into military make lousy troops. They should never joined in the first place.

Please explain

Because I don't feel lousy

Text

Text

Text

Well, I'll say it again, I don't feel lousy.

Furthermore, the soldiers I've had who've followed politics closely and had strong political opinions have been among the best at what they do, regardless of MOS (perhaps because, on average, they also had a bit more civilian education)

Maybe what you meant to say was that cowardice and military don't mix? Might encompass more of the real world because I've seen way more deserters/AWOLs than actual conscientious objectors.

Oh, you mean that people need to have an education to agree or disagree with this war or the Bush Administration? also, please explain to me why people with strong political opinions make good soldiers.

Deserters/AWOLs/COs. what is the difference? it's just another excuse for them to not do their duty.

where did you serve in the military?

I dunno about all this, but Vietnam was a VERY unpopular war. Most of us had our opinions about whether we should be there or not, (lots of draftees who DIDN'T want to be there) but you left that B.S. back in the world, because when someone else is shooting at you, it changes politics into survival, and it's easy to forget that we are "oppressing some soverign nation" and just try to kill the mofo who is trying to kill YOU. This is a lot like religion. (No athiests in foxholes) Your personal opinion doesn't matter much in combat. You do your job, and try to stay alive and in one piece, while doing the job you were assigned and trained to do...

 

[Thraxen]

Originally posted by: savoyboy
can you imagine your company commander getting on his soap box to say something like this to his men "Men, I don't like Bush and this administration. This war in Iraq is wrong and this is how i feel...."

wow! talk about a morale booster. This is why I believe political opinions should stay out of the military.

But where is the line drawn? Think back to the Nazis... wouldn't most of you agree that someone in the military should have taken a stand and said, "This is wrong"? Or do you stil think they were right by just "doing their duty"? Please note: don't try to claim I'm comparing our situation to the Nazis... just making a point.

 

[murban135]

Originally posted by: JDMnAR1
I feel fairly confident saying that you will not get a rated slot in the Air Force without either graduating from the Air Force Academy, having been active in AF ROTC during your four years in college, or having someone with MAJOR clout pull some strings. I had outstanding scores on the AFOQT, a BS (Engineering) and an MBA, and top-notch letters of reference from several career Air Force officers in my jacket when I was looking into it. It was no problem getting a slot at OCS, if I wanted to go into IT or something technical like that, but there was no chance that I was going to be sitting in the cockpit. Years ago (think before Graham-Ruddman and all the other cuts that the military has gone through in the past 25 years), and it was within the realm of possiblity for someone essentially walking in off the street (no prior committment to the military, either via ROTC or service academy attendance) to get a rated slot, but not anymore.

Depending on the needs of the Air Force getting a pilot's slot can range from difficult to almost impossible to get. When I joined, you could walk in off the street and if you made all the hurdles you could get a slot. So the pendulum swings back and forth. If you just think you might want to be a pilot, don't bother. It takes about two years to make it through all the training courses and it takes tremendous dedication and commitment. However, if you make it through it is an awesome job. Also consider the Air Force Reserves and Air National Guard in addition to active duty.

 

[roguerower]

Originally posted by: savoyboy

Originally posted by: Thraxen

Originally posted by: savoyboy
can you imagine your company commander getting on his soap box to say something like this to his men "Men, I don't like Bush and this administration. This war in Iraq is wrong and this is how i feel...."

wow! talk about a morale booster. This is why I believe political opinions should stay out of the military.

But where is the line drawn? Think back to the Nazis... wouldn't most of you agree that someone in the military should have taken a stand and said, "This is wrong"? Or do you stil think they were right by just "doing their duty"? Please note: don't try to claim I'm comparing our situation to the Nazis... just making a point.

No, I don't blame the average German soldiers for what they did. They probably would get shot if they refused to fight.

Seriously, what kind of armed forces do you have if everybody has an opinion? The military is not a democracy and you have to obey your orders, but you can disobey unlawful orders.

First off, I would like to ask when this became a P&N thread? In response to what you have said, I myself believe that it is complete BULLSH!T for someone to knowingly enlist in the military, and then when called up to service come up with some kind of an excuse and then when that fails, they fall back onto plan 2 and become a CO. The person who pulls this crap should be dishonourably discharged and thrown in the brig.

As for the officer who did this, that is even worse. The primary job of an officer is to serve their men/women. The person who lets their political views take priority over their duty is not fit to lead the men and women of this nation who have taken the ultimate risk. It DOES NOT MATTER what their beliefs are. The moment a soldier, airman, sailor, or Marine puts on that uniform, they have no political opinion.

 

[JDMnAR1]

I think there is a misunderstanding - it is certainly acceptable for the men and women in the armed forces to be political. In fact, I would venture to say that the vast majority of them are far more political than your average citizen, as they have more at stake. What they should not be is political activists. If your political beliefs are a very visible, vocal part of who you are, chances are that it is going to interfere at some point with you being able to effectively serve in the military.

 

[b0mbrman]

Originally posted by: savoyboy

Originally posted by: b0mbrman

Originally posted by: savoyboy

Originally posted by: b0mbrman

Originally posted by: savoyboy

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: thepd7

Originally posted by: savoyboy

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: savoyboy

Originally posted by: PowerMacG5

Originally posted by: Red Dawn
If I were you I'd wait until Bush and his fellow assholes are out of office. No use dying for those jerk offs failed foriegn policies

Was already planning on doing that. Yay for graduating school in 2008. All I have to do is hold out a few months to see which side wins the election, and I can decide fully on what I want to do.

It's always good to plan well in advance, especially on a life changing decision like this.

the military isn't for you if you do it solely for political reasons or whoever is in the White House. You'll find it really quick that most people in the militay don't give a ratass about politics.

Unless the politics gets them stationed in some sandy sh!thole populated by uncivilized animals who hate Americans fighting a BS war based on lies and half truths.

yes. because we all know armed forces is about sitting around a camp fire singing kumbaya.

thanks for reminding me. i did not know military people have to go to war

lol pwned. Anyone who enters the military/reserves that isn't 100% willing to fight at their commander-in-chief's request shouldn't have gotten in. And btw, since I know Red Dawn is about to say "they didn't know that they would be fighting for this" or "they didn't know the commander-in-chief would be a moron," the oath they take does not make conditions for that. They knew that whenever they took the oath.

Hence the advice to wait.

Good luck to you on that. I enlisted in early 2000 when I was 17 years old and this was 3 years before OIF. I did not join the military to invade Iraq. I don't like Bush and his stupid war in Iraq, but i'm not going to let my political view to interfere with my duty.

To make it short, military and politics do not mix. People who bring politics into military make lousy troops. They should never joined in the first place.

Please explain

Because I don't feel lousy

Text

Text

Text

Well, I'll say it again, I don't feel lousy.

Furthermore, the soldiers I've had who've followed politics closely and had strong political opinions have been among the best at what they do, regardless of MOS (perhaps because, on average, they also had a bit more civilian education)

Maybe what you meant to say was that cowardice and military don't mix? Might encompass more of the real world because I've seen way more deserters/AWOLs than actual conscientious objectors.

Oh, you mean that people need to have an education to agree or disagree with this war or the Bush Administration? also, please explain to me why people with strong political opinions make good soldiers.

Where did I say that? People with strong political views tend to be more educated. Correlation is not causation

Deserters/AWOLs/COs. what is the difference? it's just another excuse for them to not do their duty.

Heh heh...You just proved my point

One need not be politically motivated to shirk their contractual obligation. Certainly cowardice plays a much larger part in every desertion, AWOL, and CO than political motivation.

where did you serve in the military?

I'm not sure what question you're asking. So here's all the places I've PCS'd or TDY'd

Conus: SC, AZ, CA, GA, WA, LA, OK, TX
OConus: Kuwait, Iraq*

Current

 

[b0mbrman]

Originally posted by: savoyboy
can you imagine your company commander getting on his soap box to say something like this to his men "Men, I don't like Bush and this administration. This war in Iraq is wrong and this is how i feel...."

wow! talk about a morale booster. This is why I believe political opinions should stay out of the military.

Sorry. I'm a part of the democracy I've sworn to protect and I'll have a political opinion as much as I want.

Will I work it into orders I give or play favorites with those who agree with me, or disobey orders given by those with whom I don't agree?

Of course not

 

[b0mbrman]

Originally posted by: savoyboy
Seriously, what kind of armed forces do you have if everybody has an opinion? The military is not a democracy and you have to obey your orders, but you can disobey unlawful orders.

You're kidding right?

The American Army is great today because everyone has an opinion, because everyone knows each other's jobs, and because we can operate in a decentralized manner.

If you want to see the end result of what you're preaching, look at the Iraqi Army. If their platoon leader walks away, they have no idea what to do.

OP: When/if you become an officer, your lawful order will be the final say. However, you will succeed best by welcoming the opinions of others, especially your more senior NCOs

 

[b0mbrman]

Originally posted by: savoyboy

Originally posted by: b0mbrman

Originally posted by: savoyboy
Seriously, what kind of armed forces do you have if everybody has an opinion? The military is not a democracy and you have to obey your orders, but you can disobey unlawful orders.

You're kidding right?

The American Army is great today because everyone has an opinion, because everyone knows each other's jobs, and because we can operate in a decentralized manner.

If you want to see the end result of what you're preaching, look at the Iraqi Army. If their platoon leader walks away, they have no idea what to do.

OP: When/if you become an officer, your lawful order will be the final say. However, you will succeed best by welcoming the opinions of others, especially your more senior NCOs

1) what is your military background?
2) yes, anybody in the military can have opinions as long as their opinions don't interfere with their duty. Apparently, political opinions interfere with military duties and bring morale down.

1) 00-02 CI Agent
03-04 Co FSO
05 Plt Ldr
06 Co Advisor

...and yours?

2) Brings morale down? Please...We're all grown-ups.

The fact that some of us disagree with some others politically doesn't prevent us from working well together.

 

[b0mbrman]

Originally posted by: savoyboy
and I stand corrected, military is still and will not be a democratic organization. In the end, whoever has more stripes make the final decision.

Final decision, sure...but there's a lot to be gained when he with the most stripes (or bars...and other assorted shiny bits) seeks the opinions of those underneath him

 

[b0mbrman]

Originally posted by: savoyboy
1) 00-05 13F 1/145th FA
05-06 97B GSC 19th Special Forces Group(airborne)

Well how fun of us to meet this way

2) let's say if you are a company commander of a unit in Iraq and this is something you have to say to your men "I don't like Bush and his administration. I don't like this war and this is how i really feel...."

Tell me if that doesn't bring morale down because of your political opinion. Especially coming from someone in a leadership position.

I'll go say it right now to the next 3 soldiers I see that I'm in charge of, and then ask how they feel. Stand by...

Reactions:
Me I don't like Bush and his administration. I don't like this war. This is how I really feel.
Soldier 1 [Stare] [Awkward pause] Ok [Awkward pause]
Me Yes, yes. But how do you feel?
Soldier 1 Same way
Me Oh...I meant morale-wise, but...You know, you don't have to agree with me
Soldier 1 I know
Me How's your morale?
Soldier1 Doin' alright sir...

Me I don't like Bush and his administration. I don't like this war. This is how I really feel.
Soldier 2 Ok sir [Awkward pause]
Me Yes, yes. But how do you feel?
Soldier 2 Agree
Me Ok...but how's your morale?
Soldier 2 Fine, nothing gets my morale down
Me Good
Soldier 2 [Starts talking about unrelated topic]

Me How's your morale?
Soldier 3 Alright
Me I don't like Bush and his administration. I don't like this war. This is how I really feel.
Soldier 3 Ok...
Me How's your morale now?
Soldier 3 Same

 

[b0mbrman]

I know this goes against what the Army stands for, but I just sought the advice of my senior NCO--(Right-hand man/2nd in command to you non-military types). Here's how that went:

Me: Sergeant, I'm starting to get worried that my politics are starting to hurt the soldiers' morale
NCO: [Laughs] What? I'm pretty sure they don't care
Me: I think they might
NCO: Well, most of them agree with how you think to start, but your politics don't control their morale...wait, are you being serious?
Me: What? Good morale is serious
NCO: Sir, all they care about is enough sleep and getting on the internet
Me: Ah yes, that stupid myspace...
NCO: [Laughs] Now saying that might actually hurt their morale...

 

[b0mbrman]

Another test, with a political topic I care much more about:

Me Morale still okay?
Soldier 2 Roger
Me The conservative fiscal policy and all-around new classical thinking was one of my favorite parts of George HW Bush's presidency. I'm disappointed that his son hasn't done anything similar
Soldier 2 Okay
Me Alright, so how do you feel now?
Soldier 2 Confused
Me And your morale?
Soldier 2 Same