Thinking about setting up a high end audio system

[EvilYoda]

Originally posted by: spidey07
OP/EvilYoda

Don't forget to look/listen to krell amps. I absolutely love them. And evilyoda, if you like planars don't forget about martin logan - the bigger the panel the better it is.

ML Oddessey with 200 watts of Krell Class A amps..mmmmmm. Spooky real.

I've always preferred Maggies to ML...they're not the same technology anyway. I don't like how most ML's are built with a driver to supplement the low-end. If I need the low stuff, I've got more than enough sub (well, that's not true...you can never have enough).

yeah, I've thought about Krell...I think my biggest problem with them is that I didn't have a good dealer back in Michigan. From what my research has shown, the Phoenix area doesn't have many "open" dealers - they're all closed-doors & reservation only. We'll see...a few more months and I'll get out there. I still regret not buying that Proceed amp all those years ago. stupid stupid me.

 

[spidey07]

I'm a ML whore and I openly admit it. I love mine. You have to find a large enough panel that the crossover gets low - I think my requests are at 180hz.

And if a shop wants a "reservation only" screw that, but it doesn't hurt to setup a time to really listen if you're serious about buying.

 

[Rubycon]

Originally posted by: EvilYoda

I've always preferred Maggies to ML...they're not the same technology anyway. I don't like how most ML's are built with a driver to supplement the low-end. If I need the low stuff, I've got more than enough sub (well, that's not true...you can never have enough).

yeah, I've thought about Krell...I think my biggest problem with them is that I didn't have a good dealer back in Michigan. From what my research has shown, the Phoenix area doesn't have many "open" dealers - they're all closed-doors & reservation only. We'll see...a few more months and I'll get out there. I still regret not buying that Proceed amp all those years ago. stupid stupid me.

Apogee Diva is what you want.

 

[EvilYoda]

Originally posted by: Rubycon

Originally posted by: EvilYoda

I've always preferred Maggies to ML...they're not the same technology anyway. I don't like how most ML's are built with a driver to supplement the low-end. If I need the low stuff, I've got more than enough sub (well, that's not true...you can never have enough).

yeah, I've thought about Krell...I think my biggest problem with them is that I didn't have a good dealer back in Michigan. From what my research has shown, the Phoenix area doesn't have many "open" dealers - they're all closed-doors & reservation only. We'll see...a few more months and I'll get out there. I still regret not buying that Proceed amp all those years ago. stupid stupid me.

Apogee Diva is what you want.

hah! I'd love to hear a pair of those...as if the maggies didn't give me enough room issues, LOL.

I was wondering if you were going to pop into this thread with all of your infinite knowledge, laughing down upon us mere mortals.

 

[Project86]

I have 2 somewhat controversial pieces of advice.

1st (and less controversial): Please do not spend a lot of $$$ on cables. Properly designed cheap cables are no different than exotic cables. Unless we are talking about some improperly designed exotic cables which add their own coloration to the sound, in which case the cheap cables are actually better.

2nd: The same applies to CD players, amps, pre-amps, etc. Certainly build quality is a factor, as are ergonomics, appearance, features, warranty, etc. And unless you already have a large LP collection, don't bother with a turntable.

Are you aiming towards a 2 channel setup or more of a home theater/surround setup?

 

[sdifox]

Originally posted by: Rubycon

Originally posted by: EvilYoda

I've always preferred Maggies to ML...they're not the same technology anyway. I don't like how most ML's are built with a driver to supplement the low-end. If I need the low stuff, I've got more than enough sub (well, that's not true...you can never have enough).

yeah, I've thought about Krell...I think my biggest problem with them is that I didn't have a good dealer back in Michigan. From what my research has shown, the Phoenix area doesn't have many "open" dealers - they're all closed-doors & reservation only. We'll see...a few more months and I'll get out there. I still regret not buying that Proceed amp all those years ago. stupid stupid me.

Apogee Diva is what you want.

Do they come with a house? You need like 500sq for them.

 

[Greg04]

Originally posted by: Howard
http://www.gedlee.com/Summa.htm

I'd suggest an assembled Abbey 12 pair. The Summa, while superior, is a bit large for many rooms and may not provide as much bang for your buck.

Are you an owner? I have seen some pretty bad websites, but this one doesn't inspire confidence at all. Do the speaks sound decent?

 

[Blurry]

My God - look at all these responses - I feel terrible for not checking in sooner.

Anyways, to answer your questions (to help answer mine ) This is my second system, but it'll be the first one that I assemble myself. I started with 2 Klipsch RF-35's paired with what I think is a Denon receiver. Though the Denon reciever is designed for movies (it has 7.1), I'm strictly a stereo kind of guy.

Now I'm more than happy with the Klipschs, but my dad took them away because he liked them and it fit his home "decor". So now I'm left with nothing but some garbage computer speakers and an urge for great audio.

The Gallo's - well, I bought them because 1) I liked how they sound and 2) they were offered as a discount to me (they normally go for $3k - I got them for $2.5k with store warranty on top of the manufacturer's warranty.

My main problem is - I don't know if I should get a receiver or an amp - are the two the same? Is a receiver just a beefed up amp? (meaning more inputs, tv inputs, etc)?

A bunch of fellows down at avsforums suggested an Arcam AVR600 - but looking at the suggested price, $5000 for a receiver is just a bit too much for me.

Also another thing - what other things do I need? I hear a lot things circulating around and I have no idea what they are - I always thought I just needed speakers, speaker wire, receiver/amp, and a CD/SACD player.

 

[Howard]

Originally posted by: Greg04

Originally posted by: Howard
http://www.gedlee.com/Summa.htm

I'd suggest an assembled Abbey 12 pair. The Summa, while superior, is a bit large for many rooms and may not provide as much bang for your buck.

Are you an owner? I have seen some pretty bad websites, but this one doesn't inspire confidence at all.

No, but the theory behind them is very sound. I would say that Geddes ranks up there with Linkwitz and Kreskovsky in terms of speaker designing chops.

Do the speaks sound decent?

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums...adid=127152&highlight=
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums...adid=130494&highlight=
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums...php?s=&threadid=136239
http://www.gedlee.com/downloads/recommendations.pdf

 

[spidey07]

Blurry - you're going to need an amp to really make the most of them. Receivers just can't provide the power needed (especially for your speakers) unless you get a 4K flagship receiver, and for that price you can get a nice pre-amp and amp. Since it's 2 channel you don't need any of the processing - your goal is keeping your high quality source (and this is where you really need to spend 1K on a CD/SACD player - you get a quality DAC and great output stage) as untouched as possible.

Plus I've never been able to get a surround system to sound as good as a 2 channel - different needs/rooms. I gave up and have both.

All you need:
speakers
pre-amp - don't skimp here
amplifier - you need 200 watts/channel of quality amp
CD/SACD/DVD-A player.
Some decently made interconnects and speaker wire, doesn't have to be expensive and if you'll want to look for XLR interconnects on your source, pre and amp.
And a good amount of time to spend on speaker and listening placement - enjoy.

 

[sdifox]

Originally posted by: Blurry
My God - look at all these responses - I feel terrible for not checking in sooner.

Anyways, to answer your questions (to help answer mine ) This is my second system, but it'll be the first one that I assemble myself. I started with 2 Klipsch RF-35's paired with what I think is a Denon receiver. Though the Denon reciever is designed for movies (it has 7.1), I'm strictly a stereo kind of guy.

Now I'm more than happy with the Klipschs, but my dad took them away because he liked them and it fit his home "decor". So now I'm left with nothing but some garbage computer speakers and an urge for great audio.

The Gallo's - well, I bought them because 1) I liked how they sound and 2) they were offered as a discount to me (they normally go for $3k - I got them for $2.5k with store warranty on top of the manufacturer's warranty.

My main problem is - I don't know if I should get a receiver or an amp - are the two the same? Is a receiver just a beefed up amp? (meaning more inputs, tv inputs, etc)?

A bunch of fellows down at avsforums suggested an Arcam AVR600 - but looking at the suggested price, $5000 for a receiver is just a bit too much for me.

Also another thing - what other things do I need? I hear a lot things circulating around and I have no idea what they are - I always thought I just needed speakers, speaker wire, receiver/amp, and a CD/SACD player.

You still have not informed us if this is to be a 2 channel system or not.

 

[YOyoYOhowsDAjello]

Originally posted by: sdifox

Originally posted by: Blurry
My God - look at all these responses - I feel terrible for not checking in sooner.

Anyways, to answer your questions (to help answer mine ) This is my second system, but it'll be the first one that I assemble myself. I started with 2 Klipsch RF-35's paired with what I think is a Denon receiver. Though the Denon reciever is designed for movies (it has 7.1), I'm strictly a stereo kind of guy.

Now I'm more than happy with the Klipschs, but my dad took them away because he liked them and it fit his home "decor". So now I'm left with nothing but some garbage computer speakers and an urge for great audio.

The Gallo's - well, I bought them because 1) I liked how they sound and 2) they were offered as a discount to me (they normally go for $3k - I got them for $2.5k with store warranty on top of the manufacturer's warranty.

My main problem is - I don't know if I should get a receiver or an amp - are the two the same? Is a receiver just a beefed up amp? (meaning more inputs, tv inputs, etc)?

A bunch of fellows down at avsforums suggested an Arcam AVR600 - but looking at the suggested price, $5000 for a receiver is just a bit too much for me.

Also another thing - what other things do I need? I hear a lot things circulating around and I have no idea what they are - I always thought I just needed speakers, speaker wire, receiver/amp, and a CD/SACD player.

You still have not informed us if this is to be a 2 channel system or not.

Originally posted by: Blurry
I'm strictly a stereo kind of guy.

Well I'm pretty sure he's doing 2.0 or 2.1 now (assuming 2.0)

 

[sdifox]

Originally posted by: YOyoYOhowsDAjello

Originally posted by: sdifox

Originally posted by: Blurry
My God - look at all these responses - I feel terrible for not checking in sooner.

Anyways, to answer your questions (to help answer mine ) This is my second system, but it'll be the first one that I assemble myself. I started with 2 Klipsch RF-35's paired with what I think is a Denon receiver. Though the Denon reciever is designed for movies (it has 7.1), I'm strictly a stereo kind of guy.

Now I'm more than happy with the Klipschs, but my dad took them away because he liked them and it fit his home "decor". So now I'm left with nothing but some garbage computer speakers and an urge for great audio.

The Gallo's - well, I bought them because 1) I liked how they sound and 2) they were offered as a discount to me (they normally go for $3k - I got them for $2.5k with store warranty on top of the manufacturer's warranty.

My main problem is - I don't know if I should get a receiver or an amp - are the two the same? Is a receiver just a beefed up amp? (meaning more inputs, tv inputs, etc)?

A bunch of fellows down at avsforums suggested an Arcam AVR600 - but looking at the suggested price, $5000 for a receiver is just a bit too much for me.

Also another thing - what other things do I need? I hear a lot things circulating around and I have no idea what they are - I always thought I just needed speakers, speaker wire, receiver/amp, and a CD/SACD player.

You still have not informed us if this is to be a 2 channel system or not.

Originally posted by: Blurry
I'm strictly a stereo kind of guy.

Well I'm pretty sure he's doing 2.0 or 2.1 now (assuming 2.0)

he mentioned sacd and I was just trying to determine if he is venturing into surround hd music

 

[YOyoYOhowsDAjello]

Yeah I guess that's a possibility but he said he already bought his pair of speakers too, so I'm assuming that's all he's buying.

 

[Blurry]

Thanks for the replies guys - I think I have a rough idea on what I'm getting.

So in general, pre-amp plus amp > receiver? How do I measure which is better?

For instance, I was looking at this one Marantz receiver - it said that in two speaker mode, it gives out 140W per channel. In comparison, a standalone Marantz amp gives out 140W per channel as well. Does that mean they are equal in terms of power?

What I am getting at here is why go for an amp and preamp when it costs the same as a good receiver and they both give off the same amount of watts?

 

[cheesehead]

I would STRONGLY recommend the Salk SongTowers, which offer very flat frequency response - better than AV123 - with a surprising amount of bass thanks to the transmission line enclosure. Off-axis horizontal dispersion (the width of the "sweet spot") is excellent, and that Hiquphon tweeter, while boring, is very good indeed.

http://www.salksound.com/SongTower.shtml

I might also mention that I've talked online to the designer of the crossover, Dennis Murphy (A.K.A. Framus on DIYaudio's Tech Talk). If you ask REALLY nicely, he might be able to answer any questions you have.

If you'd like something a little smaller, consider active studio monitors. In your price range, you've got a choice between Genelec, Tannoy, Adam, and many others. These speakers are often very good value for money, and sound excellent - and the amplifiers are built-in!

Originally posted by: Blurry
Thanks for the replies guys - I think I have a rough idea on what I'm getting.

So in general, pre-amp plus amp > receiver? How do I measure which is better?

For instance, I was looking at this one Marantz receiver - it said that in two speaker mode, it gives out 140W per channel. In comparison, a standalone Marantz amp gives out 140W per channel as well. Does that mean they are equal in terms of power?

What I am getting at here is why go for an amp and preamp when it costs the same as a good receiver and they both give off the same amount of watts?

Anything more than 75WPC is overkill. However, most manufacturers lie - one Pioneer product rated for 120WPC could do barely more than 25 before distortion skyrocketed.

The only reason I'd bother with a two-part system is that they can, perversely, cost less. Don't overlook professional amplifiers - an Alesis RA-100 will cost you maybe $80 on eBay, and it's a very good amplifier if you've got something else to provide the gain. NAD is nice.

Originally posted by: Howard

No, but the theory behind them is very sound. I would say that Geddes ranks up there with Linkwitz and Kreskovsky in terms of speaker designing chops.

Horn tweeters = FAIL. This is a guy who repeatedly says that cabinet bracing is not necessary, and a few cheap $100 subs from Wal-Mart will do the job of a single 18" Audiopulse monster. Sure, you can make them sound excellent, but unless you're spending $400 a tweeter, you can be assured that there's a better, more conventional tweeter for less money.

 

[Howard]

Originally posted by: Cheesehead
I would STRONGLY recommend the Salk SongTowers, which offer very flat frequency response - better than AV123 - with a surprising amount of bass thanks to the transmission line enclosure. Off-axis horizontal dispersion (the width of the "sweet spot") is excellent, and that Hiquphon tweeter, while boring, is very good indeed.

http://www.salksound.com/SongTower.shtml

I might also mention that I've talked online to the designer of the crossover, Dennis Murphy (A.K.A. Framus on DIYaudio's Tech Talk). If you ask REALLY nicely, he might be able to answer any questions you have.

If you'd like something a little smaller, consider active studio monitors. In your price range, you've got a choice between Genelec, Tannoy, Adam, and many others. These speakers are often very good value for money, and sound excellent - and the amplifiers are built-in!

Originally posted by: Blurry
Thanks for the replies guys - I think I have a rough idea on what I'm getting.

So in general, pre-amp plus amp > receiver? How do I measure which is better?

For instance, I was looking at this one Marantz receiver - it said that in two speaker mode, it gives out 140W per channel. In comparison, a standalone Marantz amp gives out 140W per channel as well. Does that mean they are equal in terms of power?

What I am getting at here is why go for an amp and preamp when it costs the same as a good receiver and they both give off the same amount of watts?

Anything more than 75WPC is overkill. However, most manufacturers lie - one Pioneer product rated for 120WPC could do barely more than 25 before distortion skyrocketed.

The only reason I'd bother with a two-part system is that they can, perversely, cost less. Don't overlook professional amplifiers - an Alesis RA-100 will cost you maybe $80 on eBay, and it's a very good amplifier if you've got something else to provide the gain. NAD is nice.

Originally posted by: Howard

No, but the theory behind them is very sound. I would say that Geddes ranks up there with Linkwitz and Kreskovsky in terms of speaker designing chops.

Horn tweeters = FAIL. This is a guy who repeatedly says that cabinet bracing is not necessary, and a few cheap $100 subs from Wal-Mart will do the job of a single 18" Audiopulse monster. Sure, you can make them sound excellent, but unless you're spending $400 a tweeter, you can be assured that there's a better, more conventional tweeter for less money.

It's pretty much the furthest thing you can get from a horn tweeter without actually using a direct radiator.

Where does he say a few Walmart subs can do the job of a good 18"?

EDIT: Maybe it's better if I approach it by asking you what the OS waveguided tweeter and a horn tweeter have in common.

 

[EvilYoda]

Originally posted by: Cheesehead
I would STRONGLY recommend the Salk SongTowers

Funny, I used to live just 45 minutes away from Salk...listened to a few of his products before. Good stuff, even if a mite expensive due to the high quality materials.

 

[Project86]

Originally posted by: Blurry
Thanks for the replies guys - I think I have a rough idea on what I'm getting.

So in general, pre-amp plus amp > receiver? How do I measure which is better?

For instance, I was looking at this one Marantz receiver - it said that in two speaker mode, it gives out 140W per channel. In comparison, a standalone Marantz amp gives out 140W per channel as well. Does that mean they are equal in terms of power?

What I am getting at here is why go for an amp and preamp when it costs the same as a good receiver and they both give off the same amount of watts?

I apologize that this thread has turned into people arguing about speaker design.... especially when you already have some good speakers.

I'm going to go against the norm here and suggest you stick with a fairly basic surround receiver. I would suggest the Onkyo 876. It is a surround receiver, but you can use it in 2 channel mode. The reason I suggest this model is because it has Audyssey MultiEQ XT, which is a very powerful EQ for automatically calibrating things to your particular room. The 876 is also THX certified, has a good amount of power, and has great home theater features should you ever choose to go that route. Unless you plan on spending big money on room treatments, this would definately outperform other more expensive stereo preamps/amps that don't have any processing. It also has high quality DACs, so you can use any cheap CD player/DVD player as a transport using the digital out, and the receiver will do the digital to analog conversion like a champ.

Another idea is this: order several things from crutchfield or some similar place that allows free returns. for example, you could get several setups, charge to a credit card, and keep only the one you like best.

Setup 1: cheap
Sony SCD CE-595 SACD changer $150, Onkyo TX-8555 stereo receiver $250
total: $400

Setup 2: midprice
Sony SCD-C2000ES SACD changer, $400, Onkyo TX-SR876 $1200
total: $1600

Setup 3: higher end
Marantz SA-8003 SACD player $1000, PS Audio GCP-200 Preamp $1600, PS Audio GCA-250 amp $2000
total: $4600

That would give you 3 setups to play with and see if you feel like there really is a big difference between them. If it was me personally, I'd take the Sony 595 and Onkyo 876 and call it a day.

Last thing: do you have the Gallo SA (subwoofer amplifier) for your speakers? It is roughly $900 but will give you the last bit of bass extension all the way down to 22hz (without it you can only get down to 34hz). Something to think about.

 

[spidey07]

Those speakers are 88db at 1 watt. A receiver just isn't going to cut it. Even the amp Gallo sells for those speakers is 240 watts. IMHO anything less than 200 watts is not going to give them the power and headroom needed to really reproduce music.

 

[s44]

Originally posted by: spidey07
Those speakers are 88db at 1 watt. A receiver just isn't going to cut it.

Oh baloney. 88db isn't particularly inefficient.

The 876 mentioned above will be fine, among other receivers.

This Onkyo is sort of overkill in another way, though, given that much of its cost and benefit is in the Reon video upscaler it has. In fact, this is true for most high-powered receivers nowadays: they're optimized for home theater. If he's never going to use surround sound, the money's better spent on a stereo-only preamp/amp combo.

OP: You *do* realize that a 10% discount is pretty much standard from an audio dealer, I hope? So you didn't get that great a price, though those speakers are definitely nice. You might consider trying out the Salk Song Towers though (try the ribbon tweeter variant!) if you have the option of returning the Gallos.

 

[Project86]

I also humbly disagree about needing hundreds and hundreds of watts. Obviously your room size plays a part, as does your listening style: if you prefer exceedingly high volumes, you might need more juice. But you might not; why not try the 876 first and then if you feel it has a deficiency, add a nice cheap pro amp from Crown or Behringer, or perhaps an Emotiva amp. Reviewers didn't seem to complain about lack of power when they reviewed the Gallo 3.1 powered by a Cayin 40 wpc amp, a Plinuis integrated at 150wpc, A 150wpc Quicksilver tube amp, 100 WPC Arcam AVR, etc etc.

I suggested the Onkyo 876 because it is one of the cheapest, most powerful units that also has Audyssey MultiEQ XT, which I have found to be an excellent way of taming a difficult room. A stereo unit does not have that capability. If the room is properly treated or just happens to have really good acoustics to begin with, a stereo unit would obviously be the way to go.

Since you enjoyed the Klipsch/Denon combo, I think you would be very happy with any of the combos I mentioned. There is room down the line to become a tweak obsessed audiophile (hopefully not!) who is constantly upgrading. For now just buy something good and reasonable and enjoy your favorite music.

 

[SLCentral]

Dear God...the recommendation to go with any Onkyo for a 2.0/2.1 setup with Gallo's is absolutely ridiculous. These are power-hungry speakers, and while Emotiva/Outlaw will sound far better than just a simple HT receiver, I urge you to also take a look at some more well-known brands, like Rotel, Krell, or Arcam. The Emotiva offers a fantastic value, but no matter what anyone tells you, they simply won't be able to match the quality of a higher-end Krell unit. Seeing as how you have a pretty large budget to work with, I'd at least look into it.

Don't forget about the importance of the source too. I'd devote $1K of your budget to a CD/SACD player. Another $1-1.5K for a sub (I really like the Martin Logan line, personally, but there are many others), and you have $5K for your pre-pro/amp. Figure another hundred or so TOPS for all the cables, and you'll have yourself a pretty nice setup.

That said, I can't stress the importance of room treatments. If not already done, I'd devote $2K of your budget to that, and make the appropriate changes in regards to the budget for the rest of the system. Also, I'm not 100% sure, but systems like Audyssey may only work on surround sound setups - the MCACC setup in my Pioneer is like that, but I'm not 100% sure about other systems.

 

[Blurry]

Originally I was listening to SACD via my PS3/Denon Receiver setup. Guess I'll relegate the PS3 for movies only now.

So, I've put together a sort of temporary gear list - I'm not sure if these are the right ones for me, so please if you guys can, let me know your opinions.

Pre-Amp: Arcam C31 Stereo Pre-amplifier
Amp: Arcam A38 Amplifier (Don't know if this is good or not - it says it gives out only 140wpc at 2 channels)
Marantz SACD Player
Subwoofer: Anthony Gallo TR-2 (also don't know if this is sufficient)
A nice Media Rack by Bello

...and that's all I can think of. I checked the prices ...looks like these pretty much max out my budget.

One last thing.. what is a power amplifier?

 

[spidey07]

Blurry - the A38 is an Integrated Amplifier. This means it is a pre-amp and amplifier, this means you don't need the pre-amp. A power amplifier is JUST an amplifer, it amplifies what every you send to it...a pre-amp is used for source selection, volume control, etc.

So you can either get a pre-amp and an amplifier, or an integrated amp. Integrated amplifiers can be a good choice for budget concious but generally the pre-amp section isn't as good as a dedicated pre-amp. And the pre-amp is arguably the second most important part next to your speakers.