Thinking about setting up a high end audio system

[Blurry]

LOL...I feel utterly embarrassed by my lack of knowledge.

Ok, so instead of the A38 I should get the P38 Power Amplifier paired with the C31 pre-amp.

 

[Project86]

Wow. The OP doesn't know the difference between an amp and a integrated, and you guys are suggesting he buy Krell or Rotel? Shouldn't he maybe start cheap and see if he feels anything is lacking?

SLCentral: I know you don't care what anyone tells you, but I'll say it anyway.... any two amplifiers with high input impedance, low output impedance, flat frequency response, and sufficiently low distortion and noise will sound exactly the same at matched levels if not clipped. There is no such thing as an effect without a cause, and there is no scientifically verifiable characteristic that would cause the Emotiva to sound different from any other amplifier that meets those criteria. This simple truth has been proven over and over in double blind tests, and many an "audiophile" has been embarassed in such tests. If you choose to pay extra for the name, looks, build quality, warranty, dealer service, etc, that is fine, but let's be honest about it.

 

[spidey07]

Originally posted by: Project86
Wow. The OP doesn't know the difference between an amp and a integrated, and you guys are suggesting he buy Krell or Rotel? Shouldn't he maybe start cheap and see if he feels anything is lacking?

OP wanted a high end stereo system. That is what is being suggested. He has 7K to spend, why are you suggesting mid-fi receivers with equalization to completely destroy the source by running it through it's DACs?

He's got the money to spend, let's try to focus on steering him in the right direction. I've powered speakers and much better with receivers. It stinks, it sucks. This is personal experience, not what you "read on the intarweb".

If Blurry really wants to dip his toes into what can give really good audio then he should pick up/audition a Krell Integrated amp or something similar from others mentioned. That will let Blurry see what his room and speakers can do, but a freaking onkyo receiver? WTF dude.

 

[EvilYoda]

Originally posted by: Project86
Wow. The OP doesn't know the difference between an amp and a integrated, and you guys are suggesting he buy Krell or Rotel? Shouldn't he maybe start cheap and see if he feels anything is lacking?

Not exactly ideal, sure...but it's better than some other guy with too much money just walking into a hifi shop and getting his money taken away and spent on Bose, Sony ES and whatever else has the most spiffs and profit. (I miss Sony's spiffs...those were some good Christmases)

Best we can do is steer him in the right direction and hope that he A.) gets what he wants and B.) is confident about his purchase. Further than that, who are we to say what he chooses is good/bad. There aren't exactly a lot of people in this forum that know what they're talking about, let alone have experience with this sort of high-end product.

Regarding the OP - I have no idea where "Millbrae", CA is...maybe someone here does and could recommend a good local shop? I've taken a few friends on my auditions and they go from "I can't hear the difference" to "I hate you, you've ruined everything" (because they had their eyes opened and want to spend more money). Maybe you can find someone to help you out in the area?

 

[Project86]

Originally posted by: spidey07

Originally posted by: Project86
Wow. The OP doesn't know the difference between an amp and a integrated, and you guys are suggesting he buy Krell or Rotel? Shouldn't he maybe start cheap and see if he feels anything is lacking?

OP wanted a high end stereo system. That is what is being suggested. He has 7K to spend, why are you suggesting mid-fi receivers with equalization to completely destroy the source by running it through it's DACs?

Mid-fi as defined by whom? Salesman? People in "the industry" whose magazine or website is kept afloat by companies who sell astronomically priced gear? That's certainly not the attitude of the Audio Engineering Society. Show me a proper double blind test where someone was able to tell the difference between a decent receiver and their ultra high end amps..... Or a nice Burr/Brown like the Onkyo uses compared to an ultra hyper expensive DAC 5000 special edition mark 4.

He's got the money to spend, let's try to focus on steering him in the right direction. I've powered speakers and much better with receivers. It stinks, it sucks. This is personal experience, not what you "read on the intarweb".

I assume you level matched both power sources to within .2 decibels? If not your comparison was worthless.

If Blurry really wants to dip his toes into what can give really good audio then he should pick up/audition a Krell Integrated amp or something similar from others mentioned. That will let Blurry see what his room and speakers can do, but a freaking onkyo receiver? WTF dude.

Maybe he should do like I said, purchase cheaper stuff and some high end stuff from a place that allows returns. Then he can have a friend A/B things for him at least in a semi blind fashion. If conducted properly, I assert that he won't be able to discern a difference.

 

[Blurry]

Yikes, haven't updated my profile in years - I no longer live in Millbrae (now in the Sacramento, CA area).

Anyways, just got back from a couple of shops - one of them did carry a wide range of Rotel (no Krell unfortunately) goods - needless to say I was very impressed by the specs and build quality of Rotel (Amp alone was $1300)

Since it is so easy for me to obtain Rotel audio equipment, (as opposed to Arcam, which requires me to drive 2 hours down to SF), I'm strongly considering the Rotel simply because
1) It's good stuff
2) Store is close - easy to return in case I don't like it
3) Matches my decor? LOL

I'm curious what people think of Rotel though - it is decent stuff, right?

 

[sdifox]

Originally posted by: Blurry
Yikes, haven't updated my profile in years - I no longer live in Millbrae (now in the Sacramento, CA area).

Anyways, just got back from a couple of shops - one of them did carry a wide range of Rotel (no Krell unfortunately) goods - needless to say I was very impressed by the specs and build quality of Rotel (Amp alone was $1300)

Since it is so easy for me to obtain Rotel audio equipment, (as opposed to Arcam, which requires me to drive 2 hours down to SF), I'm strongly considering the Rotel simply because
1) It's good stuff
2) Store is close - easy to return in case I don't like it
3) Matches my decor? LOL

I'm curious what people think of Rotel though - it is decent stuff, right?

Rotels are nice. The bigger question is how well it matches your speakers/room. Generally speaking if your speakers are forward sounding, you want to reign it in with more laid back amp and vice versa. Room is important too.

What other brands do the shops carry? And are the Anthony Gallos forward sounding?

 

[EvilYoda]

Project86 - I'm sure you have some good valid points, but maybe you should tone down the "I know more than everyone and you're wrong" sentiment. We're bound to take you a little more seriously than just another "zomg double blind this double blind that, blah blah blah" zombie.

I don't doubt what you're talking about, but maybe you can supply a few links?

 

[Howard]

Used equipment tends to depreciate less compared to new equipment.

 

[spidey07]

Originally posted by: Project86

blah

Spoken like somebody that has never heard good stereo and only cares about how much it costs. Listen, there are people who don't really care what it costs.

I don't think you have owned a nice stereo system because your recommendations are quite simply those of one that has never owned or experienced one.

 

[cheesehead]

Have you listened to the Gallos yet? I've heard a pair, and thought them unimpressive, though that may have been a result of the tube amp used with it.

I would strongly consider spending more of your budget on speakers - at least 60%. The difference between many super-high-end amps is that some of the most expensive amplifiers distort more than their less expensive counterparts, wheras with speakers, it's often the other way around.

Also consider having your speakers custom-built. For less than the cost of the Gallos, you can have built for you a really excellent set of John Krutke (zaphaudio.com) designed 3-ways featuring a ScanSpeak AirCirc tweeter, ScanSpeak 15W midrange, and ScanSpeak 18W woofer, which will stomp all over anything in the price range and can be made in your choice of finish and veneer. (These drivers are also used in several speakers by Vienna Acoustics costing $6,000 and upwards. Wilson Audio and Dali like them, too.)

On the subject of amplification, Rotel should be fine. I've actually got a Rotel 6ch amp, and they're very well made. I used to have a Rotel stereo amp from the late 70s that still worked beautifully. That said, be sure to try before you buy - tastes may vary between equipment.

Originally posted by: Howard


EDIT: Maybe it's better if I approach it by asking you what the OS waveguided tweeter and a horn tweeter have in common.

Waveguides like his are steep enough to incur resonance problems - and they will resonate. They're not as bad as proper horns, but waveguides are waveguides.

However, the main issue is much bigger: Price. Compare the expensive compression drivers he favors to some good budget tweeters - say, the currently $39 Vifa XT25TG30. Set both tweeters to 90dB output and measure THD+N and energy storage. Of course, the XT25 maxes out at somewhere around 105 and the compression driver will do much more, but for general use, 103dB is enough to make your ears hurt.

Finally, there's the issue of "trial by fire". While high-efficiency designs like his have been popular for many years, I've never seen one at a DIY competition.

OTOH, I'm starting to consider using some waveguides to try reducing dispersion on a DIY 2-way bookshelf speaker

Originally posted by: SLCentral
Dear God...the recommendation to go with any Onkyo for a 2.0/2.1 setup with Gallo's is absolutely ridiculous. These are power-hungry speakers, and while Emotiva/Outlaw will sound far better than just a simple HT receiver, I urge you to also take a look at some more well-known brands, like Rotel, Krell, or Arcam. The Emotiva offers a fantastic value, but no matter what anyone tells you, they simply won't be able to match the quality of a higher-end Krell unit. Seeing as how you have a pretty large budget to work with, I'd at least look into it.

A "higher-end Krell unit" could easily cost more than a house.

I've seen the Emotivas, and they look excellent. Also, don't many mail-order hi-fi vendors have a "Try before you buy" option?

 

[Howard]

Originally posted by: Cheesehead

Originally posted by: Howard


EDIT: Maybe it's better if I approach it by asking you what the OS waveguided tweeter and a horn tweeter have in common.

Waveguides like his are steep enough to incur resonance problems - and they will resonate. They're not as bad as proper horns, but waveguides are waveguides.

In which way will they resonate? Mechanically?

However, the main issue is much bigger: Price. Compare the expensive compression drivers he favors to some good budget tweeters - say, the currently $39 Vifa XT25TG30.

The DE250 Geddes favours can be found at the well-known US Speaker vendor for $140. Moreover, he can get them at a discount, and he has offered to supply end users with B&C products, including the DE250.

Yes, they are relatively expensive compared to middle-of-the-road direct radiators, but in view of the big picture (e.g. final cost) they are not very expensive.

Set both tweeters to 90dB output and measure THD+N and energy storage. Of course, the XT25 maxes out at somewhere around 105 and the compression driver will do much more, but for general use, 103dB is enough to make your ears hurt.

First of all, THD by itself is irrelevant. At the very least, the magnitudes of each order of HD should be shown discretely and preferably vs frequency. I am now starting to nitpick, but I don't believe that drivers should be characterized by noise - unless you can explain to me how a voice coil can move on its own?

Second, I would guess that a good compression driver such as the DE250 would have comparable or better energy storage at the same output level (without waveguide). I am not sure of the audibility of the energy storage of a CD+waveguide combo, but the distortion performance absolutely destroys that of a direct radiator.

Third, and somewhat off-topic, is that a transient of 103dB will not make your ears hurt. Careful with today's music, though...

Finally, there's the issue of "trial by fire". While high-efficiency designs like his have been popular for many years, I've never seen one at a DIY competition.

He's been to several conventions, I believe. Quite a few people dislike him because of his manner, though, and his beliefs such as a very, very quickly diminishing return for things such as amplification - at one of the shows he attended, he powered his Summa with a Pioneer (or was it a Panasonic?) receiver, arguing that you couldn't get much better.

Out of respect for the OP, this is all I will say on this topic.

 

[cheesehead]

Originally posted by: Howard
The DE250 Geddes favours can be found at the well-known US Speaker vendor for $140. Moreover, he can get them at a discount, and he has offered to supply end users with B&C products, including the DE250.

Include the cost of the waveguide, and you're looking at ScanSpeak D3004/66000 money. There are more expensive tweeters, but it doesn't get much better than this.

Originally posted by: Howard

First of all, THD by itself is irrelevant. At the very least, the magnitudes of each order of HD should be shown discretely and preferably vs frequency. I am now starting to nitpick, but I don't believe that drivers should be characterized by noise - unless you can explain to me how a voice coil can move on its own?

This is the standard for driver measurements in the DIY community, and what I implied. "Nose" would likely be created by internal reflections on the waveguide.

It has also been stated by Geddes that THD+N and IMD are meaningless to the perceptual quality of his speakers. While he does reference some papers, only one of them has been peer-reviewed. It is my general experience that speakers designed with math sound very good, while speakers designed "by ear" sound bloody awful.

Originally posted by: Howard
[

He's been to several conventions, I believe. Quite a few people dislike him because of his manner, though, and his beliefs such as a very, very quickly diminishing return for things such as amplification - at one of the shows he attended, he powered his Summa with a Pioneer (or was it a Panasonic?) receiver, arguing that you couldn't get much better.

I think you're going to the wrong ones. At the last InDIYana, I recall the use of an Oppo DVD player as source and a QSC pro amplifier.

http://techtalk.parts-express....owthread.php?p=1529068

That said, all but the best Pioneer stuff has electrical noise problems, which would be incredibly obvious on speakers as efficient as these.

 

[alcoholbob]

How about a new receiver with good electronics + a Class-D amplifier?

I believe several vendors (such as D-sonic) sell ICEPower amplifiers with the ASP1000 chipset, which are good for 500W/channel+ x 2 @ 8 ohms and nearly 1000W/channel at 4 ohms.

Stereo variants of these amps tend to go in the 2k range.

 

[cheesehead]

Originally posted by: Astrallite
How about a new receiver with good electronics + a Class-D amplifier?

I believe several vendors (such as D-sonic) sell ICEPower amplifiers with the ASP1000 chipset, which are good for 500W/channel+ x 2 @ 8 ohms and nearly 1000W/channel at 4 ohms.

Stereo variants of these amps tend to go in the 2k range.

A lot of class D designs have noise problems, and those inductors in series with the crossover can have side effects.

Class A/B is the way to go.

 

[EvilYoda]

Originally posted by: Cheesehead

Originally posted by: Astrallite
How about a new receiver with good electronics + a Class-D amplifier?

I believe several vendors (such as D-sonic) sell ICEPower amplifiers with the ASP1000 chipset, which are good for 500W/channel+ x 2 @ 8 ohms and nearly 1000W/channel at 4 ohms.

Stereo variants of these amps tend to go in the 2k range.

A lot of class D designs have noise problems, and those inductors in series with the crossover can have side effects.

Class A/B is the way to go.

Class A room heaters FTW.

 

[olds]

Originally posted by: Blurry
Yikes, haven't updated my profile in years - I no longer live in Millbrae (now in the Sacramento, CA area).

Did you go to Paradyme? The have nice gear and used gear. At least they used too.

 

[Howard]

Originally posted by: Cheesehead

Originally posted by: Astrallite
How about a new receiver with good electronics + a Class-D amplifier?

I believe several vendors (such as D-sonic) sell ICEPower amplifiers with the ASP1000 chipset, which are good for 500W/channel+ x 2 @ 8 ohms and nearly 1000W/channel at 4 ohms.

Stereo variants of these amps tend to go in the 2k range.

A lot of class D designs have noise problems

What?

and those inductors in series with the crossover can have side effects.

What?

 

[Project86]

Originally posted by: spidey07

Originally posted by: Project86

blah

Spoken like somebody that has never heard good stereo and only cares about how much it costs. Listen, there are people who don't really care what it costs.

I don't think you have owned a nice stereo system because your recommendations are quite simply those of one that has never owned or experienced one.

I've owned various high end gear over the years, and I used carry the party line as fed by Stereophile and the rest of the industry. I own or have owned gear from Genelec, Triad, DefTech, McIntosh, AV123, Acoustic Research and Altec Lansing (vintage), Esoteric, VPI, Cary, Sunfire, Shanling, Conrad Johnson, Apogee, Snell..... As well as countless cheaper brands. Does that qualify me? I currently use Linkwitz Orion++ speakers, and other gear that you would probably not respect much.

Eventually I was introduced to the work of Stanley Lipshitz, Peter Aczel, Bob Carver, Siegfried Linkwitz, Dick Greiner, Tom Nousaine, Don Keele, Floyd Toole, etc. I guess now you could call me an "objectivist". The information is out there, it's just strange that not very many people are interested.

I agree that OP should buy whatever he feels sounds the best within his budget, and I don't want to start a big argument here. But I know from experience that it is easy to get swept up in the audiophile mindset where price almost always equals performance, even in spite of the scientific evidence that says otherwise, and if you disagree then your ears (and/or bank account) are the culprit.

Nobody here has suggest he spend a lot on exotic cables. Why not? I've found that many people agree with my views as they pertain to cables, but fail to apply the same logic across the entire spectrum of audio equipment.

The last I'll say on the matter is this: what is the harm in suggesting that the OP try something cheaper and see if he is satisfied? If he uses Crutchfield for example he can get a good mix of gear, and see if it really makes a difference to him in his own home, then return the unwanted stuff for free. I'm sure a local high end store would let him try some stuff at home as well under similar circumstances. What is the harm in that?

 

[EvilYoda]

One of my issues with going with something more "underground" and partially DIY is we don't know if the OP is willing to dump so much money into products that will have little to no significant resale value as opposed to mainstream products. It's the same reason that I can't rationalize building Orions (great speakers, heard a few) - I know that I'm not done upgrading and want to be able to sell my speakers and roll that money into the next big purchase. At the same time, I have DIY amps, a Pass Labs Pearl phono pre, stuff that's a little easier to swallow price-wise.

*shrugs*

 

[Muadib]

Originally posted by: Blurry
Yikes, haven't updated my profile in years - I no longer live in Millbrae (now in the Sacramento, CA area).

Anyways, just got back from a couple of shops - one of them did carry a wide range of Rotel (no Krell unfortunately) goods - needless to say I was very impressed by the specs and build quality of Rotel (Amp alone was $1300)

Since it is so easy for me to obtain Rotel audio equipment, (as opposed to Arcam, which requires me to drive 2 hours down to SF), I'm strongly considering the Rotel simply because
1) It's good stuff
2) Store is close - easy to return in case I don't like it
3) Matches my decor? LOL

I'm curious what people think of Rotel though - it is decent stuff, right?

Yes, Rotel is decent, but I don't think your reasons for picking them are valid. Did you listen to anything else when you went to these stores? What did you compare their stuff to? Did you compare apples to apples?

Originally posted by: Project86
Wow. The OP doesn't know the difference between an amp and a integrated, and you guys are suggesting he buy Krell or Rotel? Shouldn't he maybe start cheap and see if he feels anything is lacking?

I agree with this, in that Blurry needs to learn what's what before he starts spending. However, wasting money by starting cheap isn't the way to go either. Ideally, you want the best stuff for the money, whether the budget is $500 or $500,000.

Blurry, you say you like the way the Gallo's sound. Did you take note as to what they were connected to? The best setup I've heard was with Magnepan speakers. The sound they produced was heavenly. After spending some time with them, I was all set to pull the trigger.

That's when I took note of what they were hooked up to. It was an all Krell setup, that cost in the area of 30k! I had a Yamaha receiver at the time that I was using as a preamp, connected to a Adcom 2 channel amp that had 250 watts per channel. When I asked the guy helping me if he thought my gear could handle the maggies, he said yes, but that I wouldn't be happy, because the maggies were very unforgiving when it came to showing the weak points of systems.

At the time, I had no idea what he meant by that, in fact I took it as a bit of an insult at first. He showed me what he meant though, by taking the maggies & connecting them to a setup similar to mine. I saw the light then, as I could hear what he meant. Then he replaced the amp, and had me listen again. I was stunned by the difference, but my guy wasn't done. All told, I spent a little under 3 hours swapping gear out with this guy.

In the end, I passed on the mags, but that guy became my guy for electronics. He's made quite a few dollars because of his demo though, and I got quite the education from him. That's what you need Blurry. Find a guy who loves the job / hobby. They are out there if you look.

Getting back to you, do you lean towards digital or analog sound? I ask because I love my Onkyo pro pre amp, but only because I listen to strictly digital sound. If that is you, then you should take a listen to the PR-SC885 if you can still find it, or it's sister, the Integra DTC-9.8. They are last years models, but you can get quite a deal on them if you can find them.

Here's a review of the 885.

Here's one of the 9.8.

Their replacements are the DHC-9.9 and the PR-SC886P

Originally posted by: Blurry
Originally I was listening to SACD via my PS3/Denon Receiver setup. Guess I'll relegate the PS3 for movies only now.

One last thing.. what is a power amplifier?

The PS3 is a pretty damn good SACD player. Before you retire it, have you tried it with the Gallo's? Personally, I think you can hold off replacing it. You might not want to hear this, but is it too late to return the Gallo's? Much like EvilYoda, I found them to be just OK. In your price range, you can do much better.

As for your question, a power amp provides power to the speakers, and a pre amp or processor delegates your sources. As you already have a receiver, think of it divided into 2 pieces, except the amp portion of the receiver has been blown up in size. In your price range, separates are the way to go.

 

[Blurry]

Hmm yes, it is still possible for me to return the Gallo's

*heck - I haven't even opened them yet because I didn't want to connect them to my *dad's Denon receiver - I was waiting to get an amp and pre-amp the whole time.

One thing I'll admit is this: they are smaller than I thought. At the store where I was demoing them, they seemed pretty tall next the media rack with all the equipment.

Now my living room has a relatively high ceiling - so I was beginning to think I should get something bigger.

To be honest, I'm starting to think that getting the Gallo's was a rushed decision - I bought them mainly because I thought they looked pretty cool without too much regard for their SQ.

Also, the store I bought them from hooked them up to some Arcam equipment.

So I'm wondering again - if I increase my budget a bit - what can I get, speakers wise, for $5000?

 

[Greg04]

Originally posted by: Project86

Originally posted by: spidey07

Originally posted by: Project86

blah

Spoken like somebody that has never heard good stereo and only cares about how much it costs. Listen, there are people who don't really care what it costs.

I don't think you have owned a nice stereo system because your recommendations are quite simply those of one that has never owned or experienced one.

I've owned various high end gear over the years, and I used carry the party line as fed by Stereophile and the rest of the industry. I own or have owned gear from Genelec, Triad, DefTech, McIntosh, AV123, Acoustic Research and Altec Lansing (vintage), Esoteric, VPI, Cary, Sunfire, Shanling, Conrad Johnson, Apogee, Snell..... As well as countless cheaper brands. Does that qualify me? I currently use Linkwitz Orion++ speakers, and other gear that you would probably not respect much.

Eventually I was introduced to the work of Stanley Lipshitz, Peter Aczel, Bob Carver, Siegfried Linkwitz, Dick Greiner, Tom Nousaine, Don Keele, Floyd Toole, etc. I guess now you could call me an "objectivist". The information is out there, it's just strange that not very many people are interested.

I agree that OP should buy whatever he feels sounds the best within his budget, and I don't want to start a big argument here. But I know from experience that it is easy to get swept up in the audiophile mindset where price almost always equals performance, even in spite of the scientific evidence that says otherwise, and if you disagree then your ears (and/or bank account) are the culprit.

Nobody here has suggest he spend a lot on exotic cables. Why not? I've found that many people agree with my views as they pertain to cables, but fail to apply the same logic across the entire spectrum of audio equipment.

The last I'll say on the matter is this: what is the harm in suggesting that the OP try something cheaper and see if he is satisfied? If he uses Crutchfield for example he can get a good mix of gear, and see if it really makes a difference to him in his own home, then return the unwanted stuff for free. I'm sure a local high end store would let him try some stuff at home as well under similar circumstances. What is the harm in that?

What every inciter hates to see - a rational and calm explanation that simultaneously delivers a a quiet backhand to the face.

 

[YOyoYOhowsDAjello]

Originally posted by: Blurry
Hmm yes, it is still possible for me to return the Gallo's

*heck - I haven't even opened them yet because I didn't want to connect them to my *dad's Denon receiver - I was waiting to get an amp and pre-amp the whole time.

One thing I'll admit is this: they are smaller than I thought. At the store where I was demoing them, they seemed pretty tall next the media rack with all the equipment.

Now my living room has a relatively high ceiling - so I was beginning to think I should get something bigger.

To be honest, I'm starting to think that getting the Gallo's was a rushed decision - I bought them mainly because I thought they looked pretty cool without too much regard for their SQ.

Also, the store I bought them from hooked them up to some Arcam equipment.

So I'm wondering again - if I increase my budget a bit - what can I get, speakers wise, for $5000?

If getting bigger speakers is a concern, these are pretty big for $5k
http://av123.com/component/pag..._virtuemart/Itemid,37/

Whatever gets mentioned to you, you should definitely audition them well before you purchase them.

 

[spidey07]

Originally posted by: Greg04
What every inciter hates to see - a rational and calm explanation that simultaneously delivers a a quiet backhand to the face.

Actually it's just a very big disagreement of opinion. I appreciate Project for giving some background and actually having 1st hand knowledge instead of "what you read on the intarweb".

And I should stop posting when buzzed. It's very difficult to decipher true experience vs. what you read on the intarweb. I take his word and appreciate it.

I'll eat the crow, but won't proclaim it tastes good. :brokenheart: