Think you're not in a totalitarian state? Read this...

[Charles Kozierok]

The people get the government they deserve.

They have no control because they aren't willing to take responsibility. They want Obama conducting drone strikes because the alternative is that maybe someday one of those bad guys might kill some Americans, and they aren't willing to accept that.

So it's all about the government "protecting everyone", and increasingly, nobody cares at what cost.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

The people get the government they deserve.

They have no control because they aren't willing to take responsibility. They want Obama conducting drone strikes because the alternative is that maybe someday one of those bad guys might kill some Americans, and they aren't willing to accept that.

So it's all about the government "protecting everyone", and increasingly, nobody cares at what cost.

That's precisely the problem. Unfortunately what is the solution at this time? When a voice calls out against the system they are silenced, marginalized, however rational their arguments. As I'm sure you know by now I'm squarely in Washingtons camp where political parties were seen as the eventual downfall of the US. I'm not predicting an apocalypse, but nothing lasts forever as Rome proves. Whatever fall we suffer will not be by disaster, but by rats nibbling around the edge until there's nothing worth having.

I have no answer, but I don't like it.

 

[Charles Kozierok]

There is no solution as long as 90% of America is happy with the status quo.

It's the typical devolution of a society that loses its soul.

 

[Lepton87]

You are correct and any person with a degree of intelligence realizes it. Europeans in general are too stupid to realize what is happening around them until it's too late. They do excel at chastising those who can think past the nose on their face though.

What an idiotic generalization.

 

[spittledip]

The people get the government they deserve.

They have no control because they aren't willing to take responsibility. They want Obama conducting drone strikes because the alternative is that maybe someday one of those bad guys might kill some Americans, and they aren't willing to accept that.

So it's all about the government "protecting everyone", and increasingly, nobody cares at what cost.

I completely agree that we get the govt we deserve. The politicians in the pool we have to choose from are no more than just one of us, generally speaking of course.

I think we are always looking at things backwards though. All we ever do is react. We never address root causes. What is it that is pushing us toward chaos? What caused our "enemies" to hate us so much (hint: the answer isn't 'they hate us b/c they are jealous of our freedom!!')? Answer questions like these and we have a shot at real change. Government regulations can never bring about change, they are merely to keep the ever increasing tide of destruction in check.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

There is no solution as long as 90% of America is happy with the status quo.

It's the typical devolution of a society that loses its soul.

Perhaps this is a starting point, however imperfect.

from another thread

Remember though that people will tend to give what seems a little to get what they perceive as a gain. I cite my objections to Obamacare that created the precedent for a "punishment tax" as I defined it, a means to coerce people to do what the government has no real Constitutional basis to require. In principle it's like taking a home because there was a joint on the premises. Seizure and ruin is not considered punishment.

Caveat Emptor.

 

[Capt Caveman]

If the US was as bad as some people say it is, those people would have been "disappeared" by the government long ago.

Read up on what a real totalitarian state is like. This ain't it.

There are millions of Chinese citizens who would give almost anything for the level of "totalitarianism" we have here in the US.

This. Outside of needing a passport to go to Mexico and Canada now, my life and freedom has not changed one iota.

 

[Emos]

The people get the government they deserve.

They have no control because they aren't willing to take responsibility. They want Obama conducting drone strikes because the alternative is that maybe someday one of those bad guys might kill some Americans, and they aren't willing to accept that.

So it's all about the government "protecting everyone", and increasingly, nobody cares at what cost.

Exactly. People in general are very short sighted and want the immediate results (preferably with no personal involvement) with no debate whatsoever of any possible long term consequences. Even though I'm not 100% against the use of drones (they will be the future of military and transport aviation I believe) I think that we are way too aggressive in their use in other countries. One thing to keep in mind (similar to our monopoly in nuclear weapons immediate post WWII) is that this technology will be adopted by other countries who may wish to use them against us. Our behavior using them now may set the standard for future applications by allies and enemies.

 

[5150Joker]

That's precisely the problem. Unfortunately what is the solution at this time? When a voice calls out against the system they are silenced, marginalized, however rational their arguments. As I'm sure you know by now I'm squarely in Washingtons camp where political parties were seen as the eventual downfall of the US. I'm not predicting an apocalypse, but nothing lasts forever as Rome proves. Whatever fall we suffer will not be by disaster, but by rats nibbling around the edge until there's nothing worth having.

I have no answer, but I don't like it.

Those rats include the huge Israeli lobby amongst others. The sad part is we have a lot of brain washed Americans that defend them.

 

[Charles Kozierok]

I'm not too concerned about "standard setting". Most of our enemies will do whatever they want regardless of our actions.

And if we're going to fight a "war on terrists", I'd rather we used targeted strikes than leveled villages.

But this sort of action should only be taken against an American citizen under one circumstance: there is solid evidence that the individual is about to carry out an active attack *and* there is no reasonable way to apprehend him. That's it. Otherwise, bring him home, try him, and if he's guilty, stick him in a jail. If he can't be captured, then too bad.

That's how the good guys are supposed to behave.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

I'm not too concerned about "standard setting". Most of our enemies will do whatever they want regardless of our actions.

And if we're going to fight a "war on terrists", I'd rather we used targeted strikes than leveled villages.

But this sort of action should only be taken against an American citizen under one circumstance: there is solid evidence that the individual is about to carry out an active attack *and* there is no reasonable way to apprehend him. That's it. Otherwise, bring him home, try him, and if he's guilty, stick him in a jail.

That's how the good guys are supposed to behave.

I'd suggest some level of accountability as well for strikes. While the President may have ultimate authority I'm uncomfortable with unlimited discretion without at least a review by some panel of judges lets say, similar to how wiretaps were supposed to be.

 

[Charles Kozierok]

Yep. But nobody* cares. On either side.

* Hyperbole, before I get hammered.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Yep. But nobody* cares. On either side.

* Hyperbole, before I get hammered.

Heh, hyperbole often contextual vernacular. I think that when it's clear to any reasonable and prudent poster that something is being said for impact rather than as a means to bolster an argument, it's not something to be worried about any more than how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.

 

[Moonbeam]

That's precisely the problem. Unfortunately what is the solution at this time? When a voice calls out against the system they are silenced, marginalized, however rational their arguments. As I'm sure you know by now I'm squarely in Washingtons camp where political parties were seen as the eventual downfall of the US. I'm not predicting an apocalypse, but nothing lasts forever as Rome proves. Whatever fall we suffer will not be by disaster, but by rats nibbling around the edge until there's nothing worth having.

I have no answer, but I don't like it.

The answer is simple. Relive your past back to 6 mo or so and see that everything you were told about yourself is a total lie. When you become 99.999% certain you're OK, you won't have any fear. You will also be totally, oops, 99.999% free and will have no desire for a maximum security prison for yourself or your neighbor.

Terrorist are so full of self hate they can take the lives of innocent people. The condition of their lives destroyed their minds. They seek to visit that condition on others. Once those others have experienced it they will strike back and as the world plunges into total misery. We create what we fear. The answer to the suicide bomber from the technologically minded is the drone, illegal torture, and illegal extradition. As the Mangalores say, "If it's war they want it's war they'll get." It would be nice if we had some real idea of what motivates others.

As I see this issue, absent any real understanding, you're reduced to a pseudopod state like maybe that of the amoeba, where the amoeba responds on a mechanical and unconscious level to chemicals in the water, moving this way and that according to organic laws that control autonomic behavior. And lacking any real consciousness we are ALL just along for the ride.

Seems to me that one must first deal with the impotence of rage and let it go before any intelligent thinking can come to the fore. All higher order realizations, I believe, are paradoxical, involve the collapse of paradox, the integration of opposites at a higher level. In hopelessness there is hope. When everything that the ego does is seen as disaster grace can step up and take it away. There are no answers and that is our salvation. Surrender to the NOW or surrender to the Will of God, one and the same thing. He who surrenders becomes at cause. There is only love and loving is the answer. The I of self disappears at the sight of the Beloved.

 

[Double Trouble]

Of course we're heading in that direction. Because, whether they admit it or not, that's what Americans want.

They want to be "safe". They don't care what that implies.

They think the government's job is not to protect and defend the Constitution, but their personal lives and property.

They are, as Benjamin Franklin said, willing to give up liberty to achieve a little temporary safety, and thus deserve neither.

Excellent post, and - unfortunately - very much the truth.

 

[Double Trouble]

I'd suggest some level of accountability as well for strikes. While the President may have ultimate authority I'm uncomfortable with unlimited discretion without at least a review by some panel of judges lets say, similar to how wiretaps were supposed to be.

I agree with this. Given the scenarios and situations involved, I understand the president needs to have some leeway in this process in order to protect the country. However, our system is based on checks and balances. I'm not comfortable with any branch acting without checks and balances, and that certainly includes the president and his subordinates.

There needs to be a judicial process and review of actions, accountability for the executive branch.

 

[Charles Kozierok]

I think that when it's clear to any reasonable and prudent poster that something is being said for impact rather than as a means to bolster an argument, it's not something to be worried about any more than how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.

Um, we're in P&N. 🙂

The answer is simple. Relive your past back to 6 mo or so and see that everything you were told about yourself is a total lie.

Why do you say things like this? At best this is supposition, and at worst, total nonsense.

Terrorist are so full of self hate they can take the lives of innocent people. The condition of their lives destroyed their minds. They seek to visit that condition on others.

What's the basis for this claim? How do you know terrorists are "full of self hate"? I see no real evidence to back this up. They're full of hate, but it's not for themselves, it's for others whom they perceive to be worthy of hating, either for rational or irrational reasons.

As has been said many times, one man's "terrorist" is another's "freedom fighter". It depends on the circumstances and who is writing the history books.

It would be nice if we had some real idea of what motivates others.

It's not a big mystery.

As I see this issue, absent any real understanding, you're reduced to a pseudopod state like maybe that of the amoeba, where the amoeba responds on a mechanical and unconscious level to chemicals in the water, moving this way and that according to organic laws that control autonomic behavior. And lacking any real consciousness we are ALL just along for the ride.

????

Seems to me that one must first deal with the impotence of rage and let it go before any intelligent thinking can come to the fore.

What makes you think terror is about "rage"? You think the folks who carried out 9/11 spent years training and planning due to "rage'?

 

[Exterous]

The people get the government they deserve.

They have no control because they aren't willing to take responsibility. They want Obama conducting drone strikes because the alternative is that maybe someday one of those bad guys might kill some Americans, and they aren't willing to accept that.

So it's all about the government "protecting everyone", and increasingly, nobody cares at what cost.

I agree and we see this in our everyday lives too. No one should ever be hurt and if someone is hurt then another party is always responsible and should pay out a lot of money in compensation. (Buckyballs, Blitz USA -gas can maker, etc). Can't even have children using pretend weapons - all in the name of safety. More people die every year from falling down the stairs than from mass shootings yet we demand legislation fix our problem and suspend children who point their fingers at other kids

Somewhere we crossed the line from 'preventing death by gross negligence' to 'no one should ever be hurt' and are willing to hand over a great deal to the government in pursuit of this elusive idea

 

[NoStateofMind]

There's something to be said about creating the fear that requires the protection that people seek. In other words create the problem to bring about your solution. No not in the sense of making something like 9/11 happen but to take advantage of it. The Power of Nightmares (BBC original) was outstanding in explaining this. Taking advantage of peoples fear to bring about an agenda.

Lets suggest for a moment that you are in a think tank. Your objective is to change America into a more totalitarian state. With a long standing respect for the Constitution theres many things that will not change. Pre-9/11 it would be unthinkable to imprison someone without due process, deplorable to torture suspects and unimaginable to think there would be a 'presidential kill list'. So how do you change this mindset? Convince people they are living in a new world that requires new rules. Once that has been done you have a blank slate form which to work your new world. Fear was the driving factor in people's complicity to these new laws but they only get part of the blame. The rest is on those who profit from this power grab. Take it for what its worth.

 

[Jaskalas]

Militarized police forces and corrupt court systems are spreading across the country and a few foreign drone strikes are what we have to worry about?

Who says they're going to stay foreign?

 

[klinc]

Well, I think it is reasonable to give up a little "freedom" as freedom is something that can never be completely obtained in a society unless you want to move toward chaos. So, as it is, we have never had complete freedom. The problem is that we are moving toward chaos, so the govt reacts by using more invasive tactics.

We need to moderate the tactics the got uses, but most people feel they have absolutely no control over what the govt is doing. I really think that is the root of the problem- the lack of control. I guess that even if Romney had been voted into office, we would still be moving in the same direction.

Freedom is always taken never given

 

[shady28]

Well, I think it is reasonable to give up a little "freedom" as freedom is something that can never be completely obtained in a society unless you want to move toward chaos. So, as it is, we have never had complete freedom. The problem is that we are moving toward chaos, so the govt reacts by using more invasive tactics.

We need to moderate the tactics the got uses, but most people feel they have absolutely no control over what the govt is doing. I really think that is the root of the problem- the lack of control. I guess that even if Romney had been voted into office, we would still be moving in the same direction.

I agree completely with your last sentence there. This isn't a Repub / Dem thing, expansion of power in the executive branch has been going on since the mid 1800s.

But the only reason it can happen is that first sentence you posted. It's easy to give up a freedom to regulation and gov't control, it's almost impossible to get it back without revolution. We have already given up far too much control and far too much freedom in the past 100 years. It's time to stop.

 

[klinc]

There's something to be said about creating the fear that requires the protection that people seek. In other words create the problem to bring about your solution. No not in the sense of making something like 9/11 happen but to take advantage of it. The Power of Nightmares (BBC original) was outstanding in explaining this. Taking advantage of peoples fear to bring about an agenda.

Lets suggest for a moment that you are in a think tank. Your objective is to change America into a more totalitarian state. With a long standing respect for the Constitution theres many things that will not change. Pre-9/11 it would be unthinkable to imprison someone without due process, deplorable to torture suspects and unimaginable to think there would be a 'presidential kill list'. So how do you change this mindset? Convince people they are living in a new world that requires new rules. Once that has been done you have a blank slate form which to work your new world. Fear was the driving factor in people's complicity to these new laws but they only get part of the blame. The rest is on those who profit from this power grab. Take it for what its worth.

Yip. To sell security you need to make people feel insecure first. Sums up the US Foreign policy basically