[THG]Core i7-4770K: Haswell's Performance-Previewed

[TheRyuu]

One of the x264 developers stated that they will not support AVX1 because it's useless for their purposes. They have startet work on adding support for AVX2. Case closed?

Of course there may be other encoders which do use FP, but given that x264 basically is the CPU encoder, I think that wouldn't matter much.

x264 already uses AVX. I think the primary benefit is the three operand format which, by using asm trickery and (black) magic, makes certain stuff faster.

 

[vampirr]

Why is everyone so unimpressed with Haswell? It improves performance 10-15% in general situations, as expected, and when AVX2 is applicable, it happens to be very nice.

A leap forward like that of Pentium 4 to Core 2 isn't going to happen again any time soon. That wasn't even a particularly large leap forward - Athlon 64 and Core weren't very far behind Core 2, Pentium 4 and Pentium D (the names remembered from that era) just happened to be particularly unimpressive.

More and more people are switching to Linux based OS'es that are free and almost as equally good while they use less RAM and CPU power for running the OS and more can be focused for a game.,Open GL runs faster on Linux than on Window's so its logical if you have majority of games on Linux that you will switch and get a bit more performance that may lead in some games to have stable 30FPS on your rig running on Linux rather than Windows or Mac OS.

Also AMD's processors beat Intels considerably in Linux based OS'es and programs and Steamroller will make a further gap. Why Intel underperforms in Linux? Its simple, they are mostly shrinking down Core 2 Duo architecture that was derived from Pentium 3 with some tweaks and sometimes some architectural changes every time they hit with their forehead the damn bricked wall.

They are just rushing in NM size so AMD does not become a "threat" to them, its really sad. When they finally hit god damn wall made out of titanium they will be forced to make a whole new architecture that will just be terrible for two generations and AMD will keep up since their Bulldozer architecture is new, was developed for years and now its refined with Piledriver...

Steamroller is out by Q4 of 2014 and it will be a 28nm processor so AMD can do more tweaks, improvements and overall refine more the architecture of Bulldozer and have a chance to match and beat Ivy processors if they decide to use most out of Steamroller. If AMD takes the chance it can achieve 25-30% of performance and have the same TDP and power consumption or maybe a bit less since it will be a 28nm...

Intel now focused to add a better IGP with Haswell, but it will fail because of its drivers. Intel is new to GPU's and they will need at best 4 generations to keep up with AMD's APU's with their own "APU" but Kaveri will smoke it out with its HSA architecture that will use DDR4 RAM memory.

AMD worked, loaned money for their R&D and it will pay off. If they fail and go down bankrupt then IBM will go against Intel or Intel will be seperated into two camps and from what I can see with their "innovation" recently, its a lackluster... For what AMD achieved for far less money, if they had Intel's budget we would now have 16 core processors that would have TDP of 125 watts.

Haswell is still in beta, I hope that they din't slacked off...

 

[TheRyuu]

More and more people are switching to Linux based OS'es that are free and almost as equally good while they use less RAM and CPU power for running the OS and more can be focused for a game.

Well the problem with using linux on a desktop is that it's linux on a desktop, and the way you said it makes it seem like you have to settle when you do make the switch. Why should someone have to settle? Linux isn't bad, I use it on my server but it just doesn't work on the desktop for me.

,Open GL runs faster on Linux than on Window's so its logical if you have majority of games on Linux that you will switch and get a bit more performance that may lead in some games to have stable 30FPS on your rig running on Linux rather than Windows or Mac OS.

That's one big if.

Also AMD's processors beat Intels considerably in Linux based OS'es and programs and Steamroller will make a further gap. Why Intel underperforms in Linux? Its simple, they are mostly shrinking down Core 2 Duo architecture that was derived from Pentium 3 with some tweaks and sometimes some architectural changes every time they hit with their forehead the damn bricked wall.

I wasn't aware the operating system changed the performance characteristics of the processor itself. Yes you're going to have inherent differences because of the underlying design of the operating system and cpu scheduling but that won't cause the vast differences you're implying.

Also I wasn't aware of Intel under performing on linux. Care to post some numbers or get some links in there? Are you aware of the differences between Conroe and Nehalem?

They are just rushing in NM size so AMD does not become a "threat" to them, its really sad. When they finally hit god damn wall made out of titanium they will be forced to make a whole new architecture that will just be terrible for two generations and AMD will keep up since their Bulldozer architecture is new, was developed for years and now its refined with Piledriver...

Trollolololol.

 

[BallaTheFeared]

Because everyone has been chanting, "Wait for Haswell," and this has resulted in overly inflated expectations.

Isn't it a bit soon to be killing it?

If AVX2 works for gaming, won't that be enough to make it worth the wait?

 

[moonbogg]

Isn't it a bit soon to be killing it?

If AVX2 works for gaming, won't that be enough to make it worth the wait?

By the time games use AVX2, Haswell will be buried miles deep underneath its successors.

 

[vampirr]

TheRyuu... The source:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulldozer_(microarchitecture)#Architecture
http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=article&item=amd_fx8350_visherabdver2&num=1

Piledriver in Linux can compete with Intel Ivy processors, AMD focused on Windows. If they focused on Linux they would tear apart Intel. Even thought programs are not optimized for AMD. So I was suprised so was reviewers from Phonorix site.

 

[Homeles]

Linux isn't taking over the world anytime soon. Even if AMD was magically in the lead but was being held back by the evil Intel compiler, less than 5% of the population of computer users would benefit from moving over from Intel.

Also, did you even read that review you linked? The 8350 got whooped just as hard as it does in Windows reviews.

 

[Pilum]

Also AMD's processors beat Intels considerably in Linux based OS'es and programs and Steamroller will make a further gap.

I think you missed the part of reality where AMD closed the Operating System Research Center: "OSRC staff primarily worked to develop the Linux support for AMD's server processors, but they also wrote code and extensions for related desktop and notebook CPUs – for example, they looked after the code to support CPU frequency scaling for the PowerNow and Turbo Core technologies." and "A look at the patches contributed to the Linux kernel by AMD employees reveals that the closure will cause AMD to lose almost all developers who have recently submitted major changes to support new AMD processors and chip sets in Linux."

So AMD itself regards Linux as unimportant to its x86 future. What makes you think that AMD is mistaken in this assessment?

 

[inf64]

Linux isn't taking over the world anytime soon. Even if AMD was magically in the lead but was being held back by the evil Intel compiler, less than 5% of the population of computer users would benefit from moving over from Intel.

Also, did you even read that review you linked? The 8350 got whooped just as hard as it does in Windows reviews.

You should read the conclusion of that article,it states nothing of that sort(whooping).

 

[colonelciller]

Why is everyone so unimpressed with Haswell? It improves performance 10-15% in general situations, as expected, and when AVX2 is applicable, it happens to be very nice.

 

[BallaTheFeared]

By the time games use AVX2, Haswell will be buried miles deep underneath its successors.

What makes you say that?

Is AVX hard to adopt to current and future code?

 

[mavere]

Anyone know of any resources/articles detailing AVX2 and autovectorization?

The new instructions are supposed to be a godsend for making a lot of compiler optimization tasks more trivial and attainable (e.g. free speedups), but it'd be nice to get some rough numbers on that.

Edit: I've only been able to find comments from programmers basically saying "AVX2 will finally make autovec good", but they stopped at quantifying 'good'... I'll blame the NDAs I guess.

 

[moonbogg]

Using Linux as an argument for AMD really seems like a far reach to me. As an average PC consumer/enthusiast, Linux is a snore fest and I just couldn't be bothered with it.

@balla - I don't know, but it usually takes a while for new stuff to get used in common apps like games.

 

[Homeles]

You should read the conclusion of that article,it states nothing of that sort(whooping).

It lines up with how I feel about Piledriver -- it's a great step forward for AMD, but Intel's still the better choice.

 

[Torn Mind]

Using Linux as an argument for AMD really seems like a far reach to me. As an average PC consumer/enthusiast, Linux is a snore fest and I just couldn't be bothered with it.

@balla - I don't know, but it usually takes a while for new stuff to get used in common apps like games.

One's user experience with Linux is somewhat distro-dependent, but there are too many inconveniences on Linux for it to have MASS adoption so the your not-so-computer-skilled neighbor guy or gal can use it with no hiccups. Also, for ENTERPRISE customers, they use Red Hat or something else where they can something called SUPPORT.

Linux is suitable if you like to troubleshoot and google up whatever random fixes it tends to throw at you. But it can be an absolute productivity killer if the user is once he you find a user that can't be his own tech support.

Most people do not like having to google search random error x and then spend an hour or more figuring out how to input some things in the command line or finding text files to edit. Hell, if they use the "tab" button to edit the synaptics touchpad files, X window server dies and you have to use nano to find the file you edited and remove that. Hell, even I had to use up hours just troubleshooting sometimes, but I have a "thrill" troubleshooting stuff, so I'm weird that way. :biggrin:

And desktop environments can play a big effect on experience. KDE is pretty, but it gobbles up resources and drags the computer down. GNOME 3.0 was apparently a clusterfuck, and my not very competent sister got totally stonewalled when our wounded netbook running Debian got upgraded to it. That leaves XFCE and LXDE, which are lighter, but not as powerful and tweakable as the Windows 7 desktop. I wouldn't trust either of these distros in a laptop, by the way, since their power management SUCKS.

Besides, AMD doesn't care about Linux.

 

[crashtech]

Originally Posted by crashtech
Because everyone has been chanting, "Wait for Haswell," and this has resulted in overly inflated expectations.

Isn't it a bit soon to be killing it?

If AVX2 works for gaming, won't that be enough to make it worth the wait?

Killing it? Not at all. I'm sure Haswell will be a fine product. I just get tired of the constant mantra that always precedes a new product release.

 

[Torn Mind]

I wasn't aware the operating system changed the performance characteristics of the processor itself. Yes you're going to have inherent differences because of the underlying design of the operating system and cpu scheduling but that won't cause the vast differences you're implying.

This guy is full of hubris, trying to pimp how "smart" his community is yet looking incredibily ignorant on a variety of matters. In other words, the association fallacy is a constant with this fellow.

This guy has no clue about hardware. Seriously, he thought it was possible to make a GPU "inbetween" the 77xx and 78xx that could crossfire with both series, even the load balancing and the need to write a complex piece of software would make it impossible.

The OS and the processor are independent entities, and the way the OS talks to the hardware is through the kernel. It's up to the developers(programmers) to develop the kernel, since it is software; the CPU company makes the hardware.

Also, node shrinks are not tied to a particular architecture. I'm sure the 32 nm fabs can produce Atom processors just as well as they could produce Sandy Bridge processors. It simply refers to the length of a "block" of a CMOS, not how the atoms are arranged.
http://www.10stripe.com/articles/what-does-process-size-mean.php

 

[BallaTheFeared]

Killing it? Not at all. I'm sure Haswell will be a fine product. I just get tired of the constant mantra that always precedes a new product release.

That's what we do, hope for the best, expect the worst and defend our product purchases.

There were a lot of people with Core2 and 1st Gen Core saying the same thing being said now about Sandy, it's a cycle.

 

[crashtech]

That's what we do, hope for the best, expect the worst and defend our product purchases.

There were a lot of people with Core2 and 1st Gen Core saying the same thing being said now about Sandy, it's a cycle.

I acknowledge the drama, just don't like it, that's all. My expectation is that techies should be a bit more dispassionate and above the fray than the average, but in the end I guess all mankind is just a half-step above poo-flinging monkeys, hardware enthusiasts included.

 

[itsmydamnation]

What makes you say that?

Is AVX hard to adopt to current and future code?

256bit is, thats 8 32bit floats. There are already lots of 128bit INT SIMD ops in SSE. wider vectors is exactly the same as "MOAR CORES!?!?!" you still need data to operate on. Some tasks that will be much easier then others, there are some good topics about 256bit vectors for games on beyond3d. Short story is 128bit SIMD is easy, 256bit is possible but generally requires a rethink in the way you write code and it tends to clash with object orientated coding.

 

[BallaTheFeared]

So AVX2 like AVX will be a dud for gaming, and Haswell will follow suit outside it's igpu?

 

[cytg111]

By the time games use AVX2, Haswell will be buried miles deep underneath its successors.

That depends on the impact, give 30%+ on a title like crysis and i believe it will be in the next title.

 

[cytg111]

... 256bit is possible but generally requires a rethink in the way you write code and it tends to clash with object orientated coding.

- And that is the essense of it, is it not .. object oriented/functional/procedural/etc, we currently lack the language to address the parallel nature of future processor designs.

If I was Intel I would have HALF my R&D budget on engineering this language construct.

 

[NTMBK]

So AVX2 like AVX will be a dud for gaming, and Haswell will follow suit outside it's igpu?

The FMA3 which comes with AVX2 will be useful for gaming, no doubt about that. Not sure about the usefulness of 256bit vectors for most gaming situations, but it will speed up certain parts of the engines which are basically media decoders (texture decompression, for instance).

 

[NTMBK]

256bit is, thats 8 32bit floats. There are already lots of 128bit INT SIMD ops in SSE. wider vectors is exactly the same as "MOAR CORES!?!?!" you still need data to operate on. Some tasks that will be much easier then others, there are some good topics about 256bit vectors for games on beyond3d. Short story is 128bit SIMD is easy, 256bit is possible but generally requires a rethink in the way you write code and it tends to clash with object orientated coding.

I don't suppose you have links to those Beyond3D articles do you? I'd like to read them to see what they suggest, but their search function is BeyondCrap D: