They banned Darvon and incandesent bulbs

[Genx87]

12 cans of peas on the shelf. By the luck of the draw, 11 are poisoned with botulinum toxin.
"Consumer choice"

This is such a fallacy. If a company ships a defective product. How long do you think they will remain in business? People act as if it werent for regulation all products would be harmful because business would ship a shitty product. A shitty product doesnt sell and is bad for business.

 

[halik]

This is such a fallacy. If a company ships a defective product. How long do you think they will remain in business? People act as if it werent for regulation all products would be harmful because business would ship a shitty product. A shitty product doesnt sell and is bad for business.

Ha yes, chinese toys only positioned x kids with lead chips before they sure got "voluntarily" recalled. If my margin is large enough, I'll ship these things regardless. The baby formula debacle in china is a perfect example of how your ideas fail in real life.

I suggest you google the economics concepts of long run vs short run and externality.

 

[xj0hnx]

Your dad should consider himself lucky, Darvon is garbage. Tell him to tell his doctor to put him on either Hydrocodone, or Percocet.

 

[halik]

Your dad should consider himself lucky, Darvon is garbage. Tell him to tell his doctor to put him on either Hydrocodone, or Percocet.

Second on Percocet. Got a bottle of it when I had my appendix done.. 2 pills every 4 hours. Needless to say, I was the least coherent person on xbox live.

 

[ShawnD1]

Link to masses of melting light bulbs.

I've never had a CFL burn out in the way you describe. They just no longer light up for me if they die. No melting.

I've never heard this either. Usually fluorescent bulbs just flicker and annoy people when they stop working.

a yes, chinese toys only positioned x kids with lead chips before they sure got "voluntarily" recalled. If my margin is large enough, I'll ship these things regardless. The baby formula debacle in china is a perfect example of how your ideas fail in real life.

This is worsened by the fact that lots of CEOs have done insanely stupid long-term things to get short-term gains.

Politics is the same way. Lots of politicians will make terrible long term to get short term gains. Suppose the city sold all of its snow plowing trucks. The mayor goes on TV then claims he made this awesome profit and he took care of the budget... but he doesn't include that he's now renting those plows he just sold and it cost a lot more money in the long run. Short term vs long term thinking.

Second on Percocet. Got a bottle of it when I had my appendix done.. 2 pills every 4 hours. Needless to say, I was the least coherent person on xbox live.

Are you that asshole who called me the N word because I shot you in COD4?

 

[soccerballtux]

the darvon thing is really taking it's toll on my dad who depends on the stuff to help with the pain. They gave him ultram but he says that it doesn't work worth a damn.
The left want to replace everything that works with stuff that either does(but not as good of a job) or doesn't.
Why does the left have such a vendetta toward the U.S.A.? The guys that screwed the Native Americans over were Lincoln's bunch. The attrocities they commited are somehow twisted into a perverse form of patriotism to who knows what.

as a left leaning moderate, I think he should be protected from himself, even if it means he's in pain the rest of his life. It's for his good.

 

[soccerballtux]

I don't understand the anger over the bulbs myself. Incandescent lights are absurdly inefficient, only about 10% of the energy they produce is in the form of light. Isn't the ban just on 100w bulbs too? Getting rid of antiquated technology like the incandescent filament is a good thing IMO, there has to be a point where we cut our use of wasteful technologies that have long since jumped the shark.

To listen to cfl haters you'd think there is sarin gas inside these things! Funny to hear car and gun loving Americans get riled at having to follow some safety steps in disposing of a broken bulb.

it's actually closer to 65%, when you factor in the winter months. The rest of that energy you get as heat FO FREE HELL YEAH SON.

Fluorescent bulbs are measured in watts which uneducated people associate with "power". Watts are only half the equation. I could make you a bulb that used 1 Watt, consumed 200VAr's and put out the same light as a 100w incandescent if I wanted. Would you claim that was "energy efficient"? Haha. Well, hate to break it to you, but the same thing happens with fluorescents. They have a nasty power factor. Did you know you get charged more for electricity with a poor power factor? It degrades the power lines faster. Yes, I'd much rather little johnny breathe mercury vapors.

 

[OutHouse]

I don't understand the anger over the bulbs myself. Incandescent lights are absurdly inefficient, only about 10% of the energy they produce is in the form of light. Isn't the ban just on 100w bulbs too? Getting rid of antiquated technology like the incandescent filament is a good thing IMO, there has to be a point where we cut our use of wasteful technologies that have long since jumped the shark.

To listen to cfl haters you'd think there is sarin gas inside these things! Funny to hear car and gun loving Americans get riled at having to follow some safety steps in disposing of a broken bulb.

im all for efficency but im totally against this measure. very soon thre will be no more light bulb companies in the US. we will get all of our shit from china, and THANK YOU CONGRESS for voting out more US jobs and giving them to foreign companies. fucking idiots. stop meddling in stuff you should not be sticking your porkfat fingers in.

 

[ShawnD1]

Did you know you get charged more for electricity with a poor power factor? It degrades the power lines faster. Yes, I'd much rather little johnny breathe mercury vapors.

You won't get charged more unless your house has bad power factor. A 10W lightbulb at a power factor of 0.7 compared to a 10000 oven at a power factor of 0.99 is nothing. Your house power factor is still easily over the 0.9 ballpark before they charge extra.

And no, power factor does not "degrade the lines" faster. They charge extra for bad power factor because lagging power fucks with voltage control and the power company is forced to connect large capacitors to correct the voltage. Those capacitors are not free.
Leading power factor is straight up illegal because it cause voltage increase and it's not as easily corrected.

 

[Anubis]

2000 deaths out of 10 million users is a minor fucking risk it should NOT have been banned,

lightbulbs Meh for inhouse i dont really care but CFLs suck for outside use, and ive never had one last over a year let alone 10 years or whatever they claim

 

[DrPizza]

My dad should have the right to risk it sign a disclamer or whatever but it should not be banned.

That's idiotic at best. No such disclaimer is going to hold up in court. If he died, lawyers would be all over his next of kin to file a lawsuit against the drug company, the FDA, the doctor, etc. There are many alternatives without the serious side effects.

Several hundred. Out of how many? We have over 300 million people in the US.

Your idiocy is truly staggering. 300 million people do not take that drug.

This. It always seems weird when people say something about "hundreds of people die every year from X" but then going through the numbers shows that the risk of that killing you works out to be 0.00000000000001%

Might be a good idea. Caffeine makes people too twitchy.

It actually works out to around 0.005% chance. While that small of a percentage may seem trivial to some people, if we applied that as a permitted level of risk for products on the US market, it's equivalent to roughly 3 commercial flights crashing in the United States every other day. No one would get on a commercial flight with a risk that high, particularly if there was an alternative that was just as efficacious; as there are with pain medicines.

 

[lord_emperor]

Yup, he definitely should, but sorry, he can't, your dad doesn't own his body, the government does I guess? The FDA controls what we can put in our bodies, nothing we can do about it until we change the law. I think its a terrible thing.

Sorry about your dad, sucks.

Technically they're only controlling what can be sold and/or imported, possibly with government or insurance subsidizing the cost of the drug and therefore possibly liable for any ill effects. Also protecting the dorcor who subscribed it from malpractice suit in case of complications.

If he can manufacture or acquire the drug himself he can still take it.

 

[werepossum]

It is just over 100W now. But by 2014, it'll be any inefficient bulb over 40W.
Note that is any ineffiecient bulb, not incandescent bulb that is being baned. People often confuse the two words.

Of course, incandescent bulbs often are the inefficient bulbs. They will not be sold after 2014 UNLESS they are for special purposes, different voltages, rated for vibrations, or a million other exceptions. Result: incandescent bulbs will be sold for many, many years. You just might have to pay 2 cents more for an incandescent bulb rated for vibrations (like one made for a ceiling fan). Heck, if they take the more efficient standard incandescent bulbs, they only need to increase the efficiency by a few percent to meet the new laws without meeting any of the exceptions.

Speaking of shark and broken bulbs, there is more mercury in shark meat than in many CFLs. Same goes with almost all fish. So we should ban fish if we are so worried about the tiny (and thus harmless) amount of mercury in a CFL.

I'm conflicted about the light bulb ban. On one hand, I'll all in favor of maximizing personal freedom, incandescent light bulbs are sometimes the best choice, and incandescent light bulbs are still available made in America - not so with CFLs. On the other hand, I've seen many clients make absurd decisions - like demanding only technologies with sub-eight month payback, even demanding only the cheapest solution up front - and my neighbor's inefficiencies do affect me, as I have to subsidize the grid that feeds both our homes. However LED lamps are becoming available at reasonable costs, and they largely eliminate all incandescents' advantages except low initial cost. To me, anyway; I don't see well enough to detect any color or other quality differences between incandescent light bulbs and either CFLs or LEDs, though I know some people do. In the end I support both bans, although I can see both sides.

Hope the OP's dad's doc finds a painkiller that works. In a perfect world the patient would be empowered to sign a waiver and use the drug, but in the real world the manufacturer is not going to keep it on the market with such a small market and such a big liability.

 

[xj0hnx]

Technically they're only controlling what can be sold and/or imported, possibly with government or insurance subsidizing the cost of the drug and therefore possibly liable for any ill effects. Also protecting the dorcor who subscribed it from malpractice suit in case of complications.

If he can manufacture or acquire the drug himself he can still take it.

Um ...no, he can't. But it isn't the FDA that's stopping him, it's the DEA. You can't go pick you neighbors poppies and whip up some heroin, as poppy straw is a schedule II substance.

 

[Lanyap]

as a left leaning moderate, I think he should be protected from himself, even if it means he's in pain the rest of his life. It's for his good.

You forgot to tell him he could use marijuana.

 

[soccerballtux]

it's actually closer to 65%, when you factor in the winter months. The rest of that energy you get as heat FO FREE HELL YEAH SON.

Fluorescent bulbs are measured in watts which uneducated people associate with "power". Watts are only half the equation. I could make you a bulb that used 1 Watt, consumed 200VAr's and put out the same light as a 100w incandescent if I wanted. Would you claim that was "energy efficient"? Haha. Well, hate to break it to you, but the same thing happens with fluorescents. They have a nasty power factor. Did you know you get charged more for electricity with a poor power factor? It degrades the power lines faster. Yes, I'd much rather little johnny breathe mercury vapors.

You won't get charged more unless your house has bad power factor. A 10W lightbulb at a power factor of 0.7 compared to a 10000 oven at a power factor of 0.99 is nothing. Your house power factor is still easily over the 0.9 ballpark before they charge extra.

And no, power factor does not "degrade the lines" faster. They charge extra for bad power factor because lagging power fucks with voltage control and the power company is forced to connect large capacitors to correct the voltage. Those capacitors are not free.
Leading power factor is straight up illegal because it cause voltage increase and it's not as easily corrected.

shhhh you're undermining my argument

anyways, every bit adds up, and that bulb they tell you as being ultra power efficient isn't quite so green.
"Degrading the lines"-- because a greater amount of power is transmitted as current and less as voltage,
I don't remember which part it is
I think it's more than the electromigration in the transmission lines
but anyways it wears out faster.
And yes, capacitors are expensive too.
edit: more DC current in the transformers, DC current is not xformer's friend.

 

[ShawnD1]

On the other hand, I've seen many clients make absurd decisions - like demanding only technologies with sub-eight month payback, even demanding only the cheapest solution up front - and my neighbor's inefficiencies do affect me, as I have to subsidize the grid that feeds both our homes.

This is definitely a major part of it, especially in areas hit by brownouts. This is also the idea behind water conservation. In some places it's illegal to water your lawn because the system doesn't have enough water for everyone to do that. Rather than propose a massive tax hike to upgrade the entire city's pipe system, they just pass a law saying you can't do certain things. Then guys like spidey07 are right up there demanding larger taxes so they have the freedom to do... whatever



About the power factor thing, I definitely agree that people should be charged base on volt-amps instead of watts then maybe divide by the power factor. Say 1000VA at 0.7 pf would be charged as 1000/0.7 = 1429 equivalent.

 

[zanejohnson]

tell him to dry a low dose 5-10mg of hydrocodone every 4-6 hours instead....

ultram is completely useless..

 

[ShawnD1]

tell him to dry a low dose 5-10mg of hydrocodone every 4-6 hours instead....

ultram is completely useless..

yeah good luck with that. My friend had a broken hand and doctors still would not give him anything opiate based. Doctors are such pieces of shit. Anyone in any other profession who was that retarded would get fired immediately. That would be about on the same level as a firefighter driving the fire truck up to a building, seeing that the building is on fire, then driving away and letting it burn to the ground.

 

[manimal]

so wait they banned combining darvon and incadescent bulbs? First 4 loco and how this!


I just had one of those cocktails and boy was it good!!

 

[Modelworks]

Keep watching my right hand , pay no attention to the left hand as I magically show you how to save money and improve the environment !

That is all the light bulb debate is about. We can't afford to build new power plants now so we need to make people use something else and we can sell it by telling them they are saving the environment and money at the same time !

Something to consider:
Materials used to manufacture a light bulb. All are recyclable except the filament and have no lasting effects on the environment.

glass
tungsten
brass
aluminum


Materials to manufacture a CFL . It is just another glass bulb right ? Don't forget the circuit boards to drive the CFL and all the parts, resistors, capacitors , semiconductors that are needed , in addition to the plastic housing (oil derived product). Lets increase electronic waste a few thousand percent when all lights will need these components.

glass
tungsten
brass
copper
phosphorous
cadmium
tantalum
mylar
pvc's


Materials to manufacture a LED light include those from CFL and more and are even worse for the environment. Most of these end up in the environment , are not recyclable and can destroy ecosystems.

acrylic resin
arsenic
gallium
cyanide
sulfuric acid
indium
boron


I rather worry about power for a bulb that is just glass and metal and can be recycled or if not recycled can be crushed on the ground and not kill something living near it. Don't fall for the shell game politics is playing.
When Ford started selling his first cars they burned ethanol. Oil came on the scene and was cheaper to produce fuel and look where that got us. Short term gain .

 

[CallMeJoe]

Keep watching my right hand , pay no attention to the left hand as I magically show you how to save money and improve the environment...

I wonder how much the energy differential changes when you factor in manufacturing costs on CFLs and LEDs.

 

[werepossum]

This is definitely a major part of it, especially in areas hit by brownouts. This is also the idea behind water conservation. In some places it's illegal to water your lawn because the system doesn't have enough water for everyone to do that. Rather than propose a massive tax hike to upgrade the entire city's pipe system, they just pass a law saying you can't do certain things. Then guys like spidey07 are right up there demanding larger taxes so they have the freedom to do... whatever

About the power factor thing, I definitely agree that people should be charged base on volt-amps instead of watts then maybe divide by the power factor. Say 1000VA at 0.7 pf would be charged as 1000/0.7 = 1429 equivalent.

Well, commercial is often billed for volt-amperes, because grid capacity is based more on amperage than on wattage, with demand charges based on your largest power draw of the year as well as additional penalties for poor power factor. That is coming for residential too, as well as time of use billing. The grid's capacity and generating capacity must both be sized for peak period demand, and the least efficient generation is often that supplemental peak generation.* So it makes sense to charge different amounts for different times. People then have the incentive to change their behavior to save money, with the freedom to spend more if their behavior means that much to them, and all the resources can be used more wisely. Off-peak technologies, like nighttime charging of batteries and ice or heat production and storage, will become more practical and widespread.

We as a country do some very foolish things energy-wise. I've done designs on existing buildings where the developer is intent on preserving the historic inner and outer brick walls, thus renovating a building with zero insulation. Luckily these almost always get shot down by lack of financing, but it's truly amazing to see how many developers actually think they can make money with apartments and/or shops which will deliver electric and/or gas bills four or five times what a comparable, shoddily built modern space would require.

* TVA does something really smart. In areas with mountains or ridges and good hydro, TVA builds mountaintop demand reservoirs. During periods of low demand, excess electricity is used to pump water from the main reservoir up into the elevated demand reservoir. During peak generation periods, this water (supplemented with rain water) is used to generate electricity. It's clean and though on paper it looks inefficient, in reality it is usually using otherwise wasted generation.

 

[Jeff7]

I don't understand the anger over the bulbs myself. Incandescent lights are absurdly inefficient, only about 10% of the energy they produce is in the form of light. Isn't the ban just on 100w bulbs too? Getting rid of antiquated technology like the incandescent filament is a good thing IMO, there has to be a point where we cut our use of wasteful technologies that have long since jumped the shark.

To listen to cfl haters you'd think there is sarin gas inside these things! Funny to hear car and gun loving Americans get riled at having to follow some safety steps in disposing of a broken bulb.

The biggest thing I don't like about the ban on incandescents is that LED lighting isn't quite ready, and fluorescent isn't good for infrequently-used rooms.
From my own various testing, each power-on takes about 30-60 minutes of tube life from a fluorescent on a standard instant-start electronic ballast. For quick-use locations, you might as well just refer to it as "8000 starts" instead of "8000 hours."

But yeah, incandescents are awful for lighting, They're very good space heaters, and they happen to emit a little bit of light as a convenient side effect.

I wondered about the incandescent thing too. When they say that the bulbs are inefficient, isn't that "waste" energy simply transferred to heat instead of light? Seems that this shouldn't be a problem during, say, winter when excess heat inside a house isn't much of an issue. (and yes, I know the amount that these bulbs produce is a drop in the bucket compared to an actual heater, but still..)

Yeah, they're useful in winter...not so much in summer. And if you've got less-expensive heat sources available, perhaps such as wood pellets or natural gas, that electric heat is expensive. (Though again, a drop in the bucket.) I don't much like the idea though of the horrendous inefficiency.
It's like buying a car so that you can make toast. Sure you can probably make toast on some part of the engine block after it warms up, but it takes up a lot of resources for a very different task.
You're buying a little coil of wire with the purpose of expending a lot of power to bring it up to a few thousand degrees, eventually pushing its light output so it encompasses the visible spectrum, while wasting a lot of power to perform things other than the genuine purpose of producing light.

Incandescents are down in the 10-30 lumens/watt range. Some of Cree's top-end LEDs are pushing 200 lumens/watt.
(Interestingly, a lot of LED lighting products I see seem to come out around 50 lumens/watt. A good fluorescent tube and a quality ballast can give you 70-90 lumens/watt with decent color temperature, and with a programmable-start ballast, you can get up to 45,000 hours of life.)

 

[soccerballtux]

This is definitely a major part of it, especially in areas hit by brownouts. This is also the idea behind water conservation. In some places it's illegal to water your lawn because the system doesn't have enough water for everyone to do that. Rather than propose a massive tax hike to upgrade the entire city's pipe system, they just pass a law saying you can't do certain things. Then guys like spidey07 are right up there demanding larger taxes so they have the freedom to do... whatever



About the power factor thing, I definitely agree that people should be charged base on volt-amps instead of watts then maybe divide by the power factor. Say 1000VA at 0.7 pf would be charged as 1000/0.7 = 1429 equivalent.

they actually already do, this is what I'm kinda hinting at, that those 27 watts for a 60w fluorescent have a crap power factor with out of phase current, which add up to put more current load on everything, which if I understand it correctly, is what you have to build the power lines for (peak current demand). I don't know how much those "YOU'LL SAVE $234234 DOLLARS IN POWER SAVINGS ALONE!!!" messages on the front are lying, it's probably not much, but it gives me a reason to complain about government getting its grubby mits in things it does not understand.*

*Kinda like why our power infrastructure is in shambles, in their infinite wisdom they thought "oh electricity must function like gas traveling down a pipe, we'll legislate it like that" and then wham surprise nobody has any incentive to build more capacity because Congress fubar'd the billing process and all you can get paid for is the cost of transmission and not a cent more.