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They are taking away our careers!
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Hayabusa Rider
Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
I do not dispute that, but what is happening to the ratio of pure vs. applied research, and what is the trend? Scientists are leaving their jobs because of funding and seeking employment elsewhere. When they are gone, who teaches the next generation? More to the point, what is being done now to keep us ahead? I want our country and our world to be better off later than now. Fixing this serious problem is easier to do now than later.
I dont know what the trend is, so I dont think we can even say if it is a problem. I will tell you, most of my masters classes are filled with non-natives(mainly Asians and Indians). That is somewhat disturbing, but it is win win in my book. If they decide to stay, we have taken the some of the best from another country. If they go back home, they take back an American education. From talking with them, it seems to be easier to get into the country if you are in school, this may be why so non-natives are in school.
MinorityReport
Senior member
60,000 students come to US from India alone every year. Undergrad and Grad studies, PhD, MD etc.
After 9/11 it has gone Up more as muslim/arab nations get scrutinized more.
Now look at it this way :
An average student from India or Asia spends $10,000 a year on tuition and more on living .. that is $1 billion a year straight into US education system from India.
Now upon graduaion, the average salary say is 40-50k .. in the lowest conservative estimates. Assuming 50% get jobs, that is a staggering $ 1.35 billion in first year income potential.
Who gains ? US of course. Also India to some extend. A lot of these peopel send back home money to family/investment and that adds up ..
These people whether they stay or go back create a market for US products and ideas no matter where. Majority good students come to US ..and maintain their high academic standards throughout college/corporate life.
Some places like MIT, Caltech, Stanford, Harvard, Carnegie Melon, etc offer 100% scholarships to overseas students who show extraordinary brilliance.
For example one of them was Vinod Khosla, a student from IIT who came here on a scholarship. He is the co founder of Sun Microsystems. That is the beauty of US ..you perform, you get rewarded. Everything else comes next.
A true note about Grad students from India in general :
They tend to lack social skills. I wish they mixed up a little more with the general American populace... I will admit to this : They always look and act lost .. and hang out in groups ..mostly within their race. Pretty stupid.
I would fully agree for INS or some socio/cultural agency to train them or do a welcome to america 2-3 week course so they know whats going on and how the system works in US.
I don't know if I can fully agree with you. Yes, it does make business sense ... in the short term. However, the long-term remains an unknown? With companies opening themselves up so much, a lot of the control will be lost. Companies will take on additional risks. More than likely, companies are not completing final code reviews once the application gets shipped back here to the U.S. Who knows how many back-doors were created within the code? Finally, I am saddened by these actions. Sure, the companies will become more profitable ... and the CEO who is making $10 million per year now will be getting $40 million after the cuts have been made and the cost savings have been realized.
So, now I ask you, does this really make sense? I don't think so. 🙁
You've made some great points. America won't let this go on for too long. Then again, I could be wrong because they had no problems with letting all of our textile businesses ship their work overseas.
Just a question, though: Once all of these positions have been dumped, who will be left to purchase $700K homes and $60K automobiles on a salary of $10K per year? 🙁
Alright...you guys are all concerned and for good reason. But there's a very simple solution to this problem and a solution I've been doing all my life. Why invent when you can copy? Microsoft didn't invent DOS...it bought it. Most successful companies buy other companies and that's where their profits come in. So here's the solution. You take all your american funding and copy businesses here that are successful and bring it overseas to developing countries, in particular, China. So what you're doing is running your business from the US..you hire US workers for operations and so forth but you sell your product in a different country. Almost anything that's successful in the US can be copied or duplicated, particularly our culture. If I had any money I'd start buying real estate for dirt cheap prices in developing countries with large populations. I mean, if you look at hong kong, your basic 1 bedroom apartment is worth a couple million now when it could have been had for 200,000 20 years ago.
So manufacturing and IT go overseas. Stop complaining and find a new field to go into. Take advantage of the cheap labor in other countries, maximize your profits, and spend them in the US.
So manufacturing and IT go overseas. Stop complaining and find a new field to go into. Take advantage of the cheap labor in other countries, maximize your profits, and spend them in the US.
It's not that simple. If all of the "skilled" positions go overseas, there will be little else for people to do here. Our unemployment rates will go even higher. We'll all end up working for FedEx or UPS.
That's not always the case. A few unsuccessful purchases/mergers come to mind: MCI-WorldCom, AOL Time Warner ... and many others.
I'm afraid there's little we'll be able to afford if we're working at 7-11. If you read the article that was linked, more than IT careers will be affected. A lot of the Wall Street positions can also be vaporized.
Again, I encourage you to go back and read the article.
Where are you employed? Are you self-employed? How successful is the business that you work for/own? I'm very interested in what those people are doing who are definding the fact that it's OK for these positions to go overseas.
The thing is the skilled positions of yesterday, as someone mentioned, such as working at a car manufacturing plant have already gone overseas. Look how we adjusted. Instead, the new skill position became technology, particularly IT. Now that these positions are going overseas we need to find a new skill to replace those jobs with.
You mention UPS and FedEx...does India or China have a countrywide shipping service that is efficient and profitable? Why not start one there? Run operations in the US and trade on the US market.
I'm not saying mergers work...that wasn't the intent. I'm just saying most companies that make it big don't come up with their own ideas, they steal other people's ideas and improve on them and make them bigger. In some cases, they buy out the company. A few examples are a local company Spectra Logic. They spent years dabbling around in all sorts of electronic markets. One year they bought a tape backup company and the company has since taken off. I forgot what group at Lucent that they bought that was responsible for a fair amount of their revenue. Look how many companies rebadge other products. If you look at Dell, some company in Japan or Korea creates their laptops and the concepts. Sure, those jobs are lost to a different country. But in order to operate, Dell has to have jobs in the US. In order to have a successful company you have to know when to outsource certain jobs and what you have to keep in your own country. If those companies don't outsource those jobs, then they have to do all their own inhouse development. If other companies are outsourcing their labor and your company isn't, you're not going to stay in business very long. This creates less jobs than there are now. Anyways, I'm way off topic. The point was, why sit and complain about jobs being lost overseas when we can take all the great ideas and companies that have thrived in the US and start making money overseas with the same ideas.
Clearly, thinking in this manner is great. However, if you're looking at 100 people doing a particular process now, 90 positions will be lost. It will not be that easy to find great positions for those other 90 people while some new technology gets rolling. It takes time. Look at computers: Mid-late 60s one of the first usable computers was developed. It took nearly 30 years to get a sufficient number of positions created that pay well and keep people challenged. If things work out as described in the article, 90% of those positions could be vaporized quite quickly. 🙁
This is where we have to hope that our schools and education system is better than theirs. We have to rely on our ability to innovate and fund research for future technologies. If for some reason higher level education and training became easy to attain in other countries then I'd be scared. Not only will they have all the innovations, but their labor is cheap. Right now we create the technology and they provide the labor. If for some reason it went all in the other direction we're screwed. It seems like all the kids from India that study here work their asses off and are bright and respectable on top of it. I heard from one of my friends that only the top 1% and upper class get to come here and that's why they're all upstanding and work hard. Hell, I know a few people from India that have PHD's and they're younger than 28. If for some reason these people return home and decide to research there or decide to teach there it might really suck.
I saw your sig that you were unemployed and that probably contributes to your viewpoint. I know it's easy to talk like I am being a college kid and seeing everyone around me being able to get a job as long as they look hard enough(of course all these jobs are in firmware or embedded systems development or customer applications groups). By the way, real estate companies are the place to look for IT jobs as they always seem to have money and be low on technical know how. That and they aren't big enough to outsource their jobs overseas. Also, because they don't have a lot of technical know how all your real estate IT jobs won't be postd on a website that you can easily just submit a resume to. You're going to have to call them up or be have contacts. One of my friends is 22 and got 3 job offer to do IT work for real estate firms. He got all of these by making spread sheets for real estate agents that didn't know how and networking a few of their houses to make some money in his spare time...
Michael
Elite member
Buying American is not always the best option. It is not good economic sense to pay more for the same goods and services and doing so may prop up a business that should fail so that the talent and capital can be employed elsewhere.
The US has a very skilled population that can compete against much of the world in any knowledge-based enterprise.
The cost "advantage" that India enjoys can rapidly go away, just like it has for Japan, Taiwan and South Korea. The better the employment and the better the pay, the more inflationary pressure. A decade from now, they may have raised themselves up to a much higher level and then the competition will be based on skill, not cost.
The US has a very robust politial and economic system. Capital is being created, destroyed, and redeployed every day. I remember when the end to building automobiles in the US was predicted. Instead, foreign companies are building plants in the US and expanding here.
I see no need for tariffs or special taxes unless we are in a one way situation where we are not allowed to compete.
Michael
The US has a very skilled population that can compete against much of the world in any knowledge-based enterprise.
The cost "advantage" that India enjoys can rapidly go away, just like it has for Japan, Taiwan and South Korea. The better the employment and the better the pay, the more inflationary pressure. A decade from now, they may have raised themselves up to a much higher level and then the competition will be based on skill, not cost.
The US has a very robust politial and economic system. Capital is being created, destroyed, and redeployed every day. I remember when the end to building automobiles in the US was predicted. Instead, foreign companies are building plants in the US and expanding here.
I see no need for tariffs or special taxes unless we are in a one way situation where we are not allowed to compete.
Michael
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