They are at it.. again... in iOwa

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werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,873
463
126
"People or businesses that refuse to provide services or benefits based upon religious convictions would be able to do so without facing civil claims."

I've seen on the walls of establishments all of my 55 years on this earth the sign that says: We Reserve "The Right To Refuse Service"
Be it this reason or that reason. What's good for the goose is good for the gander. Where do we draw the line?
If you own the business then you own the right to run it. Am I for the issue here or against. Neither. The freedom to own and run a business is just that! Freedom! do we like our freedom?
I'm very strong on freedom, but I also appreciate the need for public accommodation. Personally I draw the line at one's home. If you operate a business out of, or let an apartment in, your house, feel free to discriminate in whatever manner you think appropriate. If you operate a business outside your home - be it an apartment complex, a rental duplex, a restaurant or IBM - you no longer have the right to discriminate, um, indiscriminately. That is, you can refuse to serve people wearing shirts that say "Legalize Butt Sex" ONLY if you also refuse to serve people wearing shirts that say "Criminalize Butt Sex", refuse to serve black people wearing pants below their ass cheeks ONLY if you also refuse to serve white people wearing pants below their ass cheeks, and so forth. Have standards based on behavior at the moment, not on race or creed or ethnicity or behavior outside the business establishment.

Gays are a bit different - far more gays pass for straights every day than self-identified blacks pass for white - but the principle remains the same: don't discriminate without a damned good reason which is applied evenly to everyone regardless of your preferences. In general, government dividing people into groups with different privileges is not a good way to ensure personal freedom.
 

SolMiester

Diamond Member
Dec 19, 2004
5,330
17
76
http://www.desmoinesregister.com/ar...e-aims-to-protect-same-sex-marriage-objectors

"Bill in Iowa House aims to protect same-sex marriage objectors"

What the bill says:

"- A religious corporation, association, educational institution, society, charity or fraternal organization, or person employed by such entities, would not be required to treat a marriage as valid. They also could deny goods, services or accommodations if the marriage violated a person's religious beliefs.
- An individual, small business or sole proprietor would not be required to provide goods or services "that assist or promote the solemnization or celebration of a marriage." This includes benefits to the spouse of an employee, housing to a married couple and reproductive services.
- People or businesses that refuse to provide services or benefits based upon religious convictions would be able to do so without facing civil claims."

Does anyone else find this a bit disturbing?
Remind anyone of how it all started over in Germany back in 1938?
Sound familiar?

A little background...
Republicans were successful, using same sex marriage as the wedge issue, in removing three of the iOwa supreme court justices up for retention. And voting out iOwa's one term democrat governor.
Republicans now control the iOwa house of reps.
Democrats hold control of the senate by two seats.

If you do not agree with this, you are saying the rights of the few have more weight than the rights of the many.....
I for 1 do not support same sex marriages, so have no issue with it.....

I dont live over your way either so it doesnt concern me...just my 2c
 

Bowfinger

Lifer
Nov 17, 2002
15,776
392
126
It's dead Jim.

Good riddance, it was an embarrassment for most Iowans. As with much of the country, the fundie fringe picked up several legislative seats due to general unhappiness with the economy. Fortunately, they remain a minority -- a loud and vocal minority, but a minority nonetheless. Unfortunately, we'll have to endure more stories like this for the next couple of years.

It's a pity so many self-professed Christians are so unlike the Christ they purportedly follow.
 

CADsortaGUY

Lifer
Oct 19, 2001
25,162
1
76
www.ShawCAD.com
It's dead Jim.

Good riddance, it was an embarrassment for most Iowans. As with much of the country, the fundie fringe picked up several legislative seats due to general unhappiness with the economy. Fortunately, they remain a minority -- a loud and vocal minority, but a minority nonetheless. Unfortunately, we'll have to endure more stories like this for the next couple of years.

It's a pity so many self-professed Christians are so unlike the Christ they purportedly follow.

lol, I don't necessarily think this legislation was good but to suggest that the economy was why "fundies" won here in Iowa is naive at best. All you have to do is look at the mismanagement under governor gronstal (culver) as a big reason the Rs picked up seats. Sure there were other reasons too(courts, fraud, spending, BHO, etc) so to try to pin it only/mainly on the economy is silly.
 

Bowfinger

Lifer
Nov 17, 2002
15,776
392
126
lol, I don't necessarily think this legislation was good but to suggest that the economy was why "fundies" won here in Iowa is naive at best. All you have to do is look at the mismanagement under governor gronstal (culver) as a big reason the Rs picked up seats. Sure there were other reasons too(courts, fraud, spending, BHO, etc) so to try to pin it only/mainly on the economy is silly.
"It's the economy, stupid." First, foremost, and always. When the economy sucks, the party in power takes a beating. Were there issues? Of course, on both sides of the aisle. History has shown that which issues the public decides to care about usually depend on meta issues like the economy.
 

RightIsWrong

Diamond Member
Apr 29, 2005
5,649
0
0
I wonder if these same jagoffs would support a bill that, instead of same sex marriage, was proposed to allow companies and other organizations the ability to deny services and/or benefits to those of a particular sect following a 2000 year old dead hippie?
 

CADsortaGUY

Lifer
Oct 19, 2001
25,162
1
76
www.ShawCAD.com
"It's the economy, stupid." First, foremost, and always. When the economy sucks, the party in power takes a beating. Were there issues? Of course, on both sides of the aisle. History has shown that which issues the public decides to care about usually depend on meta issues like the economy.

You and the other democrats here in iowa can continue to try to stick your head in the sand and ignore the reality of why you got your ass handed to you last election if you wish. :) While you're at it why don't you try the old "we didn't get our message out" BS :D
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,873
463
126
I wonder if these same jagoffs would support a bill that, instead of same sex marriage, was proposed to allow companies and other organizations the ability to deny services and/or benefits to those of a particular sect following a 2000 year old dead hippie?
Would depend on the hippie. If it's who I think you mean, the whole point of the sect is his not being dead.
 

Dekasa

Senior member
Mar 25, 2010
226
0
0
Could've told you from the start this bill really had no chance. While we have crazies in Iowa, as a whole we're pretty level-headed.
 

sportage

Lifer
Feb 1, 2008
11,492
3,163
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"People or businesses that refuse to provide services or benefits based upon religious convictions would be able to do so without facing civil claims"

I see a fine line between the quote, and a worker wanting their co-worker fired because their co worker was SS married, or gay, and having to work in the same department as a gay or SS married person was against their personal morals.
So this worker goes to the boss and demands the gay co worker be fired so that their personal moral values will not be offended.

ANyway... this bill became dead in the republican house today. Even though the newly elected republican iOwa governor said he did not see the bill as discrimination.
Better known as Terry Braindead. He had been governor for several terms back in years past. So republicans dug him up and ran him against the one term democrat governor.

I guess iOwa house republicans will now have to fix roads with the money they had set aside to build concentration camps in the state.

All this kind of explains how things evolved in Germany in the 1930's. And people today wonder how that could have ever happened back then. I can answer how that could have happened back then in one word... easily.

I find it odd our country is all concerned about happenings over in Egypt, while iOwa house republicans continue to try stunts like this bill, right here in our country. I see little difference in the outrage.
 
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Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
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Why do the right keep doing bills like this, why is the new Repubican Congress making its first bills social issues instead of the promised 'totally about jobs'?

One reason: because it gets them votes they desperately need, to get power for their real agenda of economic concentration and exploitation.

If we had a sub-culture of people who wanted legal nudity, or a national Ayn Rand holiday, or saying high heels are immoral, we'd see the same types push those.

It's really simple, there are experts who design political messages, who poll and say 'what will people vote for'. If the answer comes up, 'well, Democrats oppose you for your economic agenda, obviously you aren't going to change that, but fundamentalists are craving people who will push their agenda', then you get that.

And of course, to get those votes, you don't want it to cost you with the larger public, so you have Eric Cantor out saying for the nation 'everything Republican do will be for jobs' which is the issue pollsters say will determine the next election - so you say are trying to do that - even while you have a conflict of interest that a good economy will help re-elect Obama, so maybe you pursue policies that will hurt the economy for most while helping the rich, under the guise of supporting foolish polices you CLAIM will help the people - like 'trickle down economics', where liberals might scream you're wrong, but you already knew that, it was the plan, you just needed something to SAY you are trying to help the people for votes. And then you do a lot of fundamentalist or other pandering things that members can use in their specific campaigns.

As long as the people who push these bills can get votes by saying 'we tried, so vote for us not those gay-loving liberals', they not only have no real reason to care they don't pass, it's probably better for them that they don't - so they can keep re-using the issue election after election, and don't create injustices that are rallying cries for the people who oppose injustice.

Because it's not about the issues - the gay haters are pawns to milk for votes by pandering to bigotry, the gays are pawns to take rights from to get votes - it's just about getting the votes to get power to pursue economic exploitation agenda, i.e., to give more to the rich.

(As I've said, there are two main types of Dems - progressives who do try to do the right thing on such issues, and power-chasing Dems who 'compromise', trying to get the votes of people turned off by some of the right's behavior, but still in bed with the powerful when it helps them, I might call them 'phony Democrats', people who might pick their party based on which is best for them to get elected.)

So while many Iowans might views these Republicans as 'crazies', it's all just part of the way they get elected, pandering to the groups who don't care or understand about the real agenda they have of the economic exploitation, serving the rich as their real agenda. And it works quite a lot.

It didn't used to; before Reagan, there wasn't really a political 'religious right' nor a Republican pandering to them - and between that, and the south not being pandered to on race and recruited to the Republican party, and without the right-wing media infrastructure like propaganda things tanks and Fox news, Democrats won a lot more elections. Now, Republican are more effective in politics with those things. They can lie about war, cause economic crisis, and still get elected.

Sadly, in part this is how Democracy is partly supposed to work - while they do a lot of manipulation, the bottom line is that if we have a lot of people who are misguided, don't care about and can't be bothered to learn the economic issues, who will trade their vote for pandering on fundamentalist issues, then they deserve the bad government.

A real danger is that people come to not really support Democracy at all - the 'why bother to vote, doesn't matter who gets elected' crowd - and that's the real victory for the wealthy, to finally rid themselves of 'the people' who need all this expensive pandering. It's not too feasible to do that anytime soon, but at some point, it becomes possible, despite the US thinking it's immune to what so many countries have happen. But there's no need to attack democracy, when it can be corrupted.

Could the public withstand the sort of techniques used in other countries to block democracy - when the business class shut down the Venezuelan economy for months trying to pressure the public to get rid of the President, when a Pinochet makes it known anyone who pushes for democracy will get tortured, 'disappeared'? I don't think so, and luckily it seems unlikely - but in part because people freely give these classes what they want.

If we held an election for who would run Treasury, and Goldman Sachs was one candidate, would the public really elect them? Of course not, but they tolerate it.

It's driven the country to financial ruin - but the reaction won't be one that helps, it'll be one designed by the same interests, who ensures the public pays the price.

It's build an America even better for the rich, one in which the public has less wealth, and is cheaper labor - thanks in part to the people who vote for these Republicans, who pander to fundamentalists and get the votes. Our forum here is filled with people duped by the same thing, even if not many back the fundamentalist agenda, they support the same people for misguided reasons.

In short, the corrupt have gotten better at politics, and are winning. The faction who could help, the progressives, have a hard fight against the corrupt wealth.

So, let's just fix it? Hardly, with the unlimited corporate donations now a 'constituional right', thanks to the corrupt Justices the right appointed.
 

ebaycj

Diamond Member
Mar 9, 2002
5,418
0
0
That's organized religion for you. Might as well be passing a bill that gives these tards that attend church every sunday XX amount of money.

I guess all I can say is I'm glad I don't live in that state!

Test the theory. Move there, go to church a lot, get around and know people. then, get them to back you financially and elect you mayor/statesenator/etc... Then, propose a bill providing 50% off your tax bill if you "can honestly say you have a relationship with jesus christ" (while increasing taxes on all others to cover the bill), See what it polls at in the news. I'm guessing about %75.
 

zsdersw

Lifer
Oct 29, 2003
10,505
2
0
If an area is not gay friendly - then keep the gays out by passing anti-gay legislation.

If an area is gay friendly - then pass all the pro-gay laws they want.

It doesn't work like that.

I seriously doubt that. Civil unions for homosexual couples might be supported in areas that received the survey.

http://people-press.org/report/553/same-sex-marriage

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/politics/polls/postpoll_021010.html

Nobody called my house and asked me if I approve of a gay civil union.

Do you?

Surveys and statics can lean certain directions by making sure the phone calls go to certain areas that have already been shown to approve of certain things.

That would be true if looking at only one survey or poll, but when all of them draw a very similar conclusion there's a very high chance it's an accurate reflection of the country's overall opinion.
 
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Bowfinger

Lifer
Nov 17, 2002
15,776
392
126
You and the other democrats here in iowa can continue to try to stick your head in the sand and ignore the reality of why you got your ass handed to you last election if you wish. :) While you're at it why don't you try the old "we didn't get our message out" BS :D
OK, good to know. I suppose it was dumb to ASSume this was a national issue, what with Republican gains in statehouses across the country and in Congress. I should have known that it's really all about Iowa, with voters in states like Maine casting ballots based on Iowa Governor Culver's record. I'll confess that's not intuitive to me, but we know you're never, ever, ever wrong about anything, so it must be so.

Thank you for amus^h^h^h^h enlightening us.
 

zsdersw

Lifer
Oct 29, 2003
10,505
2
0
If a business or organization doesn't want me as a customer or member because I'm gay, guess what.. I'll take my money, time, and productivity elsewhere... fvck 'em. I don't need them anywhere near as much as they need me. I'll also make their refusal known to everyone I know.

Choices have consequences that no one should be exempted from, including idiotic business owners and organization administrators.
 

CADsortaGUY

Lifer
Oct 19, 2001
25,162
1
76
www.ShawCAD.com
OK, good to know. I suppose it was dumb to ASSume this was a national issue, what with Republican gains in statehouses across the country and in Congress. I should have known that it's really all about Iowa, with voters in states like Maine casting ballots based on Iowa Governor Culver's record. I'll confess that's not intuitive to me, but we know you're never, ever, ever wrong about anything, so it must be so.

Thank you for amus^h^h^h^h enlightening us.

Uh, the voters of IOWA kicked your kind to the curb - not other states. Yes, BHO had a hand in it but really if you looked at the campaigns across this state - it was about IOWA issues and people were speaking out on IOWA issues/problems. The economy didn't help, but it wasn't the major reason here in iowa as we've been relatively insulated from much of the economic hardship.

But yeah, try to claim I'm wrong like you always do and then stick your head back in the sand if it makes you feel better...
 

actuarial

Platinum Member
Jan 22, 2009
2,814
0
71
If you do not agree with this, you are saying the rights of the few have more weight than the rights of the many.....
I for 1 do not support same sex marriages, so have no issue with it.....

I dont live over your way either so it doesnt concern me...just my 2c

If you are for equal rights, the rights of the many also shouldn't outweigh the rights of the few, and you SHOULD have issue with something that violates that. Would you still support the law if it said that opposite sex couples who were not married by a Christian church could also be denied the benefits afforded to married people?
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
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If a business or organization doesn't want me as a customer or member because I'm gay, guess what.. I'll take my money, time, and productivity elsewhere... fvck 'em. I don't need them anywhere near as much as they need me. I'll also make their refusal known to everyone I know.

Choices have consequences that no one should be exempted from, including idiotic business owners and organization administrators.

That sure worked great to fix a century of racist segregation! Oh, wait, it didn't.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
87,985
55,394
136
If an area is not gay friendly - then keep the gays out by passing anti-gay legislation.

If an area is gay friendly - then pass all the pro-gay laws they want.




I seriously doubt that. Civil unions for homosexual couples might be supported in areas that received the survey. Nobody called my house and asked me if I approve of a gay civil union.

Surveys and statics can lean certain directions by making sure the phone calls go to certain areas that have already been shown to approve of certain things.

http://pewforum.org/Gay-Marriage-and-Homosexuality/Majority-Continues-To-Support-Civil-Unions.aspx

Explain how the methodology of this survey is flawed, or admit that the majority of the country supports gay civil unions.

I will prepare for the inevitable counter arguments that come from people who don't understand how scientific polling works.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
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Yup, because the two issues and the times in which they exist(ed) are the same. Oh, wait, they're not.

What an idiotic reply, I hate when I accidentally read your posts. Your 'solution' leaves the country filled with legal discrimination, and is immoral. I'm done reading you though.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
126
I will prepare for the inevitable counter arguments that come from people who don't understand how scientific polling works.

Some people's understanding of scientific polling: they didn't call me, so it's wrong.

High correlation with people who say global climate change is not real if it's not hot out.