"There is no moral equivalence between Israel and Hamas"

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Abwx

Lifer
Apr 2, 2011
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According to the mainstream press in France Israhell did kill civilians at a rate higher than 80% while the palestinians killed zionists military at a 90% rate, rest being civilian...

It makes no doubt, if ever it was ever in doubt, that there s no moral equivalence between the zionists criminals and the palestinians freedom fighters.
 
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Borealis7

Platinum Member
Oct 19, 2006
2,901
205
106
According to the mainstream press in France Israhell did kill civilians at a rate higher than 80% while the palestinians killed zionists military at a 90% rate, rest being civilian...

It makes no doubt, if ever it was ever in doubt, that there s no moral equivalence between the zionists criminals and the palestinians freedom fighters.
the numbers are wrong, but even so, two can play this game:
350 Palestinians died since the operation began - 100 Hamas terrorists and 250 civilians that were used as human shields by them. (numbers from Friday July 18th)
BTW, did you forget the thousand or so rockets fired at CIVILIANS from gaza into israel?
luckily, the Iron Dome prevented countless deaths in israel.
since the operation began, Hamas's attacks have been 95% into civilian targets. you can't deny that.

nice try though.
civilian targets stop being so when they are used for stockpiling rockets and ammunition i.e. UNRWA schools, mosques, people's homes.
 
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Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
36,407
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The terrorists lack technology and are being killed by the dozens. You'll count them as civilians because you side with then. You mourn their losses, you wish they had the strength to win. Maybe stronger rockets which would kill Israelis by the dozens. I consider you evil. I expect, when push comes to shove, that the feeling is mutual. That is the nature of conflict. We take sides, we use force.

An olive branch would be a plan of action, an attempt for resolution, without violence. Simply telling your enemy to surrender is not an option. So that leaves us with more grandiose ideas. Such as sweeping the rug out from Israel and Hamas.
1: Current borders of Gaza and West Bank are not to be violated. They should remain with the Palestinians. Israel is to be made to respect this.

2: Refugees should be allowed relief. Egypt needs to be made, by the UN, to open the border to Gaza. Funding should be gathered towards this purpose. To care for anyone who wishes a better life, who wishes to flee the violence of war.
Over time this would allow some Palestinians a better life. In turn, people removed from the violence are more likely to condemn it, or wish to find ways to resolve it. The Palestinians we assist through Egypt could turn the tide against Hamas and put an end to this conflict. In short, I think we could find a way for them to liberate themselves.

The situation can improve, we just have to stop wanting people to die first, and take the time to speak out in favor of peaceful alternatives. As a forum we shame ourselves every moment we do not voice our support to such plans. If all we do is cheer on the violence of both sides, then we too have blood on our hands.

It would be very easy for me to wish for Israel to glass the desert. Perhaps easy is wrong. Maybe we have to think outside the box to arrive at better solutions. Who here is willing to join me in doing that?
 

Abwx

Lifer
Apr 2, 2011
12,004
4,968
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the numbers are wrong,

Numbers are right and published in a mainstream french paper, here :

http://www.lemonde.fr/proche-orient...za-entre-israel-et-le-hamas_4460048_3218.html

http://www.lemonde.fr/proche-orient...-attaques-terrestres-a-gaza_4460182_3218.html

While you have no source at all and keep posting lies in support of your criminal, usurpatory and fascist state, and so much for their so called 15 elite soldiers that were killed last night and their tank destroyed by men, that is real men, on foot, not the same as bombing families with 600kg bombs..
 
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JEDIYoda

Lifer
Jul 13, 2005
33,986
3,321
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the numbers are wrong, but even so, two can play this game:
350 Palestinians died since the operation began - 100 Hamas terrorists and 250 civilians that were used as human shields by them. (numbers from Friday July 18th)
BTW, did you forget the thousand or so rockets fired at CIVILIANS from gaza into israel?
luckily, the Iron Dome prevented countless deaths in israel.
since the operation began, Hamas's attacks have been 95% into civilian targets. you can't deny that.
The terrorists lack technology and are being killed by the dozens. You'll count them as civilians because you side with then. You mourn their losses, you wish they had the strength to win. Maybe stronger rockets which would kill Israelis by the dozens. I consider you evil. I expect, when push comes to shove, that the feeling is mutual. That is the nature of conflict. We take sides, we use force.

An olive branch would be a plan of action, an attempt for resolution, without violence. Simply telling your enemy to surrender is not an option. So that leaves us with more grandiose ideas. Such as sweeping the rug out from Israel and Hamas.
1: Current borders of Gaza and West Bank are not to be violated. They should remain with the Palestinians. Israel is to be made to respect this.

2: Refugees should be allowed relief. Egypt needs to be made, by the UN, to open the border to Gaza. Funding should be gathered towards this purpose. To care for anyone who wishes a better life, who wishes to flee the violence of war.

Over time this would allow some Palestinians a better life. In turn, people removed from the violence are more likely to condemn it, or wish to find ways to resolve it. The Palestinians we assist through Egypt could turn the tide against Hamas and put an end to this conflict. In short, I think we could find a way for them to liberate themselves.

The situation can improve, we just have to stop wanting people to die first, and take the time to speak out in favor of peaceful alternatives. As a forum we shame ourselves every moment we do not voice our support to such plans. If all we do is cheer on the violence of both sides, then we too have blood on our hands.

It would be very easy for me to wish for Israel to glass the desert. Perhaps easy is wrong. Maybe we have to think outside the box to arrive at better solutions. Who here is willing to join me in doing that?

Yes, two can play at that game......so you can have a platform to speak you quote numbers dead and such that have nothing at all to do with any of this.....

But lets ask the bigger question -- Whose fault is it?
If it`s your father or uncle or brother who is firing those rockets into Israel..whose fault is it really?

Notice we are not discussing resons because every reason you give to justify Hamas lobbing missles anybody who is pro-Israel can justify this Israeli Military action.....

The truth is what I posted above...Hamas as well as the Palestinians supporters on these forums are secretly very happy that people are dying...why??
Because it`s a huge propaganda coup for them and we all know people do not like to see other people, especially children die for any reason.....

Do you really expect the israeli`s not to retaliate?

To understand this better we need to look at thee Hamas Charter...which even though they took out article 10......their leaders as of 2012 had called for the destruction os israel....
Yet even now the charter calls for the murder of Jews in general...

Hamas doesn`t care if they kill israeli citizens...but they don`t care if Palestinian civilians die...for Hamas until recently having palestinians die has been a huge public relations coup for Hamas!! To Hamas that is a win, win!!

It has been said that Israel is using a missle defense system to protect its citizens and Hamas is using it`s citizens to protect it`s missles!

If Hamas had the opportunity they would kill the maximum number Israeli`s they could....
Yet Israel has the opportinity to kill way more people and they do not.....
 
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Harabec

Golden Member
Oct 15, 2005
1,369
1
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Have you noticed how there are zero pictures of Hamas fighters?
Only Israeli soldiers vs injured civilians. It is as if Hamas does not really exist in reporters' eyes.
 

Abwx

Lifer
Apr 2, 2011
12,004
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I don't know, they're hiding too well among the innocent civilians.

The way you are hiding you air force bases used to bomb them near urban areas , isnt it, why dont you put them in front of Gaza so your civilian populations would no more be threatened by those innaccurate rockets..?.

Isnt that using urban areas as a shield..??.

Neverless we saw what your elite unity was worth, despite having a tank, against men that are all on foot, it s no more like when bombing the innocents from jet planes, even hiding in tanks is not enough.
 
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cubby1223

Lifer
May 24, 2004
13,518
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The truth is what I posted above...Hamas as well as the Palestinians supporters on these forums are secretly very happy that people are dying...why??
Because it`s a huge propaganda coup for them and we all know people do not like to see other people, especially children die for any reason.....

Do you really expect the israeli`s not to retaliate?

All around the world there are many people dying for a wide range of unnatural causes. Many are wronged for a wide range of reasons. But when it happens to a Palestinian, suddenly a swarm perks up in almost delight at the chance to voice their opinions here.

That "hate boat" incident always struck me as a very odd, as if it was purposefully done to draw international media attention.


The way people and the world can support the Palestinian people is not by telling sympathetic stories, not by voicing your opinion on random internet forums, not by sending food and clothes and other goods. The way to support them is by purchasing the products their businesses make, and the services they provide. Do not continue to treat them as a charity case, but to show them they have value in this world. Figure out how to allow business transactions to occur with the outside world, while doing the best to prevent weapon shipments from arriving.

I don't know. There just seems like a shit-ton of ways the world can legitimately work towards helping the situation, but refuse to get engaged in any sort of meaningful way, almost as if some out there benefit from this conflict using the Palestinians as pawns in their own ambitions.
 

Whiskey16

Golden Member
Jul 11, 2011
1,338
5
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The way to support them is by purchasing the products their businesses make, and the services they provide.
A false rose coloured world you present.


The Gaza is a ghetto. Foreign entities control the flow of goods and people while Israel maintains exceedingly crippling blockades down to that of disabling local fishermen from achieving basic services.

Then onto the West Bank where Israel controls the collection and hopeful dissemination of taxes, road blocks and search points throughout, ethnic based highway systems, and through to illegal barriers blockading villages, just how may Palestinans conduct sovereign free trade of goods and services?

Cubby, your rosy and clearly lying propoganda is a loss. Good luck trying again.

[EDIT]

Cubby, let me try again.

What you state is reasonable, but currently unattainable while freedom of travel is not possible and property is annexed and colonised by a foreign occupying power.

Cubby, what you are in fact arguing for is a free, sovereign, and viable Palestinian state.

Currently, under occupation, Palestinians face extreme economically competitive disadvantages. It is intentionally not a level playing field as a weak and divided Palestine more easily enables Israel to imply a guise of extreme and even illegal security measures to further illegally annex territory for colonisation.

These are high international crimes, and reasonably, quite antagonising to the native populations.

Israel, for that dreadful policy of lebensraum, is in control of the viability of Palestinians, but chooses to maintain oppression all for state strategic purposes. Potential Palestinian success and sovereignty is the number one obstacle to the implementation of a greater and more expansive state of Israel.

The longer a two state solution is avoided, the longer Israel annexes new territory.
 
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shira

Diamond Member
Jan 12, 2005
9,500
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I think Krautheimer hits the nail on the moral head with his op-ed piece. Hamas knows its missiles can't inflict much damage on Insrael. But they place their weapons amid civilians and launch those missiles anyway because they WANT Israel to retaliate. They WANT Palestinian civilians to be killed, and they hope the moral double-standard imposed by the world on Israel will then further Hamas's goal of destroying Israel.

Moral clarity

Israel accepts an Egyptian-proposed Gaza cease-fire; Hamas keeps firing. Hamas deliberately aims rockets at civilians; Israel painstakingly tries to avoid them, actually telephoning civilians in the area and dropping warning charges, so-called roof knocking.

“Here’s the difference between us,” explains the Israeli prime minister. “We’re using missile defense to protect our civilians, and they’re using their civilians to protect their missiles.”

Rarely does international politics present a moment of such moral clarity. Yet we routinely hear this Israel-Gaza fighting described as a morally equivalent “cycle of violence.” This is absurd. What possible interest can Israel have in cross-border fighting? Everyone knows Hamas set off this mini-war. And everyone knows the proudly self-declared raison d’etre of Hamas: the eradication of Israel and its Jews.

Apologists for Hamas attribute the blood lust to the Israeli occupation and blockade. Occupation? Does no one remember anything? It was less than 10 years ago that worldwide television showed the Israeli army pulling die-hard settlers off synagogue roofs in Gaza as Israel uprooted its settlements, expelled its citizens, withdrew its military and turned every inch of Gaza over to the Palestinians. There was not a soldier, not a settler, not a single Israeli left in Gaza.

And there was no blockade. On the contrary. Israel wanted this new Palestinian state to succeed. To help the Gaza economy, Israel gave the Palestinians its 3,000 greenhouses that had produced fruit and flowers for export. It opened border crossings and encouraged commerce.

The whole idea was to establish the model for two states living peacefully and productively side by side. No one seems to remember that, simultaneous with the Gaza withdrawal, Israel dismantled four smaller settlements in the northern West Bank as a clear signal of Israel’s desire to leave the West Bank as well and thus achieve an amicable two-state solution.

This is not ancient history. This was nine years ago.

And how did the Gaza Palestinians react to being granted by the Israelis what no previous ruler, neither Egyptian, nor British, nor Turkish, had ever given them — an independent territory? First, they demolished the greenhouses. Then they elected Hamas. Then, instead of building a state with its attendant political and economic institutions, they spent the better part of a decade turning Gaza into a massive military base, brimming with terror weapons, to make ceaseless war on Israel.

Where are the roads and rail, the industry and infrastructure of the new Palestinian state? Nowhere. Instead, they built mile upon mile of underground tunnels to hide their weapons and, when the going gets tough, their military commanders. They spent millions importing and producing rockets, launchers, mortars, small arms, even drones. They deliberately placed them in schools, hospitals, mosques and private homes to better expose their own civilians. (Just Thursday, the U.N. announced that it found 20 rockets in a Gaza school.) And from which they fire rockets at Jerusalem and Tel Aviv.

Why? The rockets can’t even inflict serious damage, being almost uniformly intercepted by Israel’s Iron Dome anti-missile system. Even West Bank leader Mahmoud Abbas has asked: “What are you trying to achieve by sending rockets?”

It makes no sense. Unless you understand, as Tuesday’s Post editorial explained, that the whole point is to draw Israeli counterfire.

This produces dead Palestinians for international television. Which is why Hamas perversely urges its own people not to seek safety when Israel drops leaflets warning of an imminent attack.

To deliberately wage war so that your own people can be telegenically killed is indeed moral and tactical insanity.
But it rests on a very rational premise: Given the Orwellian state of the world’s treatment of Israel (see: the U.N.’s grotesque Human Rights Council), fueled by a mix of classic anti-Semitism, near-total historical ignorance and reflexive sympathy for the ostensible Third World underdog, these eruptions featuring Palestinian casualties ultimately undermine support for Israel’s legitimacy and right to self-defense.

In a world of such Kafkaesque ethical inversions, the depravity of Hamas begins to make sense. This is a world in which the Munich massacre is a movie and the murder of Klinghoffer is an opera — both deeply sympathetic to the killers. This is a world in which the U.N. ignores humanity’s worst war criminals while incessantly condemning Israel, a state warred upon for 66 years that nonetheless goes to extraordinary lengths to avoid harming the very innocents its enemies use as shields.

It’s to the Israelis’ credit that amid all this madness they haven’t lost their moral scruples. Or their nerve. Those outside the region have the minimum obligation, therefore, to expose the madness and speak the truth. Rarely has it been so blindingly clear.
 

cabri

Diamond Member
Nov 3, 2012
3,616
1
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Link

Lady makes valid points while she wears the blinders.
Ignoring that the Palestinians brought this upon themselves.
 

Whiskey16

Golden Member
Jul 11, 2011
1,338
5
76
Crap, there shira. Krautheimer, is restating the propaganda PR line of Israel is good, Palestinians are evil, particularly because Israel withdrew colonies and occupation from the quite densely populated little region of the Gaza strip.

In all disregard to balance and honesty, nothing is expressed to recognise Israel diversion to more greatly intensify the annexation and colonisation into the more desirable West Bank, while increasing draconian security measures and controls against the local Palestinian populations.

A BS and typically expected Israeli state PR piece you found there, shira.

It's of no surprise, that many here have avoided addressing my post on the last page concerning law and Israeli intentions for illegally expanding that state at the expense of native and titled inhabitants.
 
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Borealis7

Platinum Member
Oct 19, 2006
2,901
205
106
Who killed the so called 15 elite zionists nazi soldiers last night??

http://www.lefigaro.fr/flash-actu/2...-soldats-israeliens-tues-la-nuit-derniere.php

You get the picture i suppose....
come on, break out the fireworks. i know you want to.
or did you not notice that the same night 30 Hamas militants also died?
my numbers are accurate and come straight from the ground where the fighting goes on, in case you forgot. i get updates to my Whatsapp the minute something big happens from soldeirs on the front line. you can dispute them until your fingers bleed on your keyboard.
 

Abwx

Lifer
Apr 2, 2011
12,004
4,968
136
come on, break out the fireworks. i know you want to.
or did you not notice that the same night 30 Hamas militants also died?
my numbers are accurate and come straight from the ground where the fighting goes on, in case you forgot. i get updates to my Whatsapp the minute something big happens from soldeirs on the front line. you can dispute them until your fingers bleed on your keyboard.

European press say that almost only civilians were killed , as usual israhell took revenge on civilians for the military losses it endured, check elsewhere than in your press that claimed only 5 "elite" criminals where killed before trying to match the number published in europe.

Neverless the more than 80% civilians killed published by the europans is increasing since israhell is good at killing defenseless civilians, as proved ecach hours that passes.

This doesnt change the facts posted by wiskey anyway, according to international laws israhell is a criminal state whose legitimacy is the one of the stealer that entered a house and is taking its legal owner at gun point.
 

Borealis7

Platinum Member
Oct 19, 2006
2,901
205
106
European press say that almost only civilians were killed , as usual israhell took revenge on civilians for the military losses it endured, check elsewhere than in your press that claimed only 5 "elite" criminals where killed before trying to match the number published in europe.
what are you talking about? israeli press stated, once the families were notified and the media ban was lifted, that 13 soldiers died tonight, and overall 15 israelies since the start of the operation. you are pulling numbers out of someone's ass, some french reporter's ass it seems...
EDIT: what you saw was that 5 names were allowed to be published. it doesn't mean that only 5 died.

Neverless the more than 80% civilians killed published by the europans is increasing since israhell is good at killing defenseless civilians, as proved ecach hours that passes.
civilians in war zones get killed. that's the down side of war.

This doesnt change the facts posted by wiskey anyway, according to international laws israhell is a criminal state whose legitimacy is the one of the stealer that entered a house and is taking its legal owner at gun point.
if the owner of the house is hiding weapons, the weapons should be disposed of or his house should be demolished in case thats not possible (rigged explosives and such). do you argue that?
one of the stated goals of Israel in this operation is the demilitarizaion of the gaza strip. that means disposing of all illegal weapons and the formation of a policing force in the area.

and also, Hamas doesn't own that land. they forcefully threw out the PLO in 2006, public hangings and all. the world should let israel overthrow the hamas government, let the PLO back in and MAYBE then, after the situation settles as it is in the west bank, peace talks can begin.
 
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JEDIYoda

Lifer
Jul 13, 2005
33,986
3,321
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European press say that almost only civilians were killed , as usual israhell took revenge on civilians for the military losses it endured, check elsewhere than in your press that claimed only 5 "elite" criminals where killed before trying to match the number published in europe.

Neverless the more than 80% civilians killed published by the europans is increasing since israhell is good at killing defenseless civilians, as proved ecach hours that passes.
If the people firing the missles were not cowards who were using the Palestinians to hide amonst...there would be no issues...

This doesnt change the facts <--- International law also sides with Israel so does International law mean anything -- Probably not a whole lot and it is not enforceable......posted by wiskey anyway, according to international laws israhell is a criminal state whose legitimacy is the one of the stealer that entered a house and is taking its legal owner at gun point. <--- International Law means nothing....sorry to say --

http://jcpa.org/article/international-law-and-gaza-the-assault-on-israel’s-right-to-self-defense/

International law authorizes Israel to initiate military countermeasures in Gaza. If Gaza is seen as having independent sovereignty, Israel’s use of force is permissible on the grounds of self-defense. If Gaza is seen as lacking any independent sovereignty, Israel’s use of military force is permissible as in other non-international conflicts.



The rule of “distinction” includes elements of intent and expected result: so long as one aims at legitimate targets, the rule of distinction permits the attack, even if there will be collateral damage to civilians. The rule of “proportionality” also relies upon intent. If Israel plans a strike without expecting excessive collateral damage, the rule of proportionality permits it. Israeli attacks to date have abided by the rules of distinction and proportionality.



Israel’s imposition of economic sanctions on the Gaza Strip is a perfectly legal means of responding to Palestinian attacks. Since Israel is under no legal obligation to engage in trade of fuel or anything else with Gaza, or to maintain open borders, it may withhold commercial items and seal its borders at its discretion.



The bar on collective punishment forbids the imposition of criminal-type penalties to individuals or groups on the basis of another’s guilt. None of Israel’s actions involve the imposition of criminal-type penalties.



There is no legal basis for maintaining that Gaza is occupied territory. The Fourth Geneva Convention refers to territory as occupied where the territory is of a state party to the convention and the occupier “exercises the functions of government” in the territory. Gaza is not territory of another state party to the convention and Israel does not exercise the functions of government in the territory.



The fighting in Gaza has been characterized by the extensive commission of war crimes, acts of terrorism and acts of genocide by Palestinians, while Israeli countermeasures have conformed with the requirements of international law. International law requires states to take measures to bring Palestinian war criminals and terrorists to justice, to prevent and punish Palestinian genocidal efforts, and to block the funding of Palestinian terrorist groups and those complicit with them.



Since Israel’s withdrawal from the Gaza Strip in August 2005, Palestinian groups including Hamas, Fatah, Palestinian Islamic Jihad, the Popular Democratic Front for the Liberation of Palestine, and the Popular Resistance Committees have launched thousands of rocket attacks at Israel. All the attacks have been on civilian targets, with no more than a handful of possible exceptions. The brunt of the Palestinian assault has been borne by the town of Sderot. The attacks have killed several residents and injured dozens, struck houses and public buildings like kindergartens, and so traumatized residents that three-quarters of all Sderot children between the ages of 7 and 12 suffer from post-traumatic anxiety.

Faulty Arguments Made by Opponents of Israel

Unsurprisingly, in the wake of Israeli countermeasures, persistent critics of Israel have strongly objected to Israel’s defensive actions to date, while remaining mostly mute on the crime under international law committed daily by the Gazan militias’ attacks on Israeli civilians. As will be explained below, it is evident that the criticisms are without legal basis. Israeli responses to the Palestinian terror attacks emanating from Gaza correspond to the requirements of international law, and the claims that Israel has violated international law are without merit.

One widely reported criticism came from John Dugard, a professor of international law who has accepted a permanent appointment as special rapporteur on human rights in the “occupied Palestinian territories” from the discredited UN Commission on Human Rights and its successor UN Human Rights Council. Dugard has publicly and repeatedly interpreted his mandate as requiring him to criticize only Israel and, true to form, Dugard criticized Israeli defense measures for alleged illegality in the high-profile Sunday New York Times (Jan. 20, 2008).

First, Dugard claimed that Israel’s attack on Hamas headquarters in a Palestinian Interior Ministry building in Gaza was illegal because the target was “near a wedding venue with what must have been foreseen loss of life and injury to many civilians.” However, contrary to Dugard’s insinuation, the building was certainly a legitimate target under the international humanitarian legal rule of distinction as it makes a definite contribution to Hamas’ hostilities. That one Palestinian civilian lost her life in the Israeli strike is unfortunate, but not a violation of the rule of proportionality, which authorizes collateral damage to civilians where justified by military necessity.

Second, Dugard asserted that Israel’s closure of its borders with the Gaza Strip constitutes illegal “collective punishment.” Yet there is nothing in international law that requires Israel to maintain open borders with such a hostile territory, whatever its sovereign status. Exercising legal counter-measures against a hostile entity does not constitute “collective punishment” under international law. Dugard’s refusal to level the same charge against Egypt, which also kept closed its border with the Gaza Strip, underlines the bias that accompanies the legally inaccurate statement.

Dugard was not alone. UN High Commissioner for Human Rights Louise Arbour denounced Israel’s “disproportionate use of force.” UN Undersecretary-General for Political Affairs Lynn Pascoe told the UN Security Council that collective penalties were prohibited under international law (Financial Times, Jan. 22, 2008). UNRWA Commissioner General Karen Koning Abu Zayd joined the chorus by criticizing Israel’s “sporadic” electricity supply to Gaza and its border closures and called on the international community to act (Guardian, Jan. 23, 2008). Unfortunately, these skewed assertions and misstatements of international law by UN officials framed how international public opinion views the illegal Palestinian actions in Gaza and the merits of Israeli defensive actions, and especially Israel’s legal right to defend itself.

Some parties had the courage to reject the one-sided and faulty arguments. In the UN Human Rights Council in Geneva, Canada, a state that prides itself in making the defense of human rights and international law a significant factor in its foreign policy, voted against a resolution condemning Israel for the Gaza fighting. While the European state members abstained in the Human Rights Council vote, some European officials, such as Franco Frattini, European Commissioner for Justice, Freedom and Security, correctly defended the legality of the Israeli actions, and others, such as Dutch Foreign Minister Maxime Verhagen, criticized UN bias against Israel. Finally, U.S. Ambassador to the UN Zalmay Khalilzad told the UN Security Council on January 22, 2008, that Hamas was “ultimately responsible” for the current situation in Gaza.

This essay nevertheless attempts to construct a rational legal basis for evaluating Israeli behavior and potential criticisms. This is no easy task as many of the criticisms of Israel’s conduct are made in conclusory fashion, without reference to legal doctrines or legal materials in support of the charges, or, alternatively, based on a misunderstanding of the requirements of the law and the factual context.

This essay examines, in turn, the six distinct bodies of law that could potentially affect the legality of Israeli counterstrikes:
1.the laws of initiating hostilities (jus ad bellum);
2.international humanitarian law, which governs the conduct of military actions;
3.the laws of occupied territory, which some have argued applies to Israeli actions against Gaza-based terrorists;
4.human rights laws;
5.laws on genocide; and
6.anti-terror laws.

A careful examination of the relevant law demonstrates that Israeli counterstrikes to date, and its potential future counterstrikes (both economic and military), conform to the requirements of international law. Moreover, Palestinian commission of war crimes and acts considered under international conventions to be terrorist acts and acts of genocide require Israel and other countries to take steps to punish Palestinian criminals for their acts in the Gaza fighting.

A final preliminary note is in order. The legal status of the Gaza Strip is an extremely complex puzzle in international law and is beyond the scope of this essay. Fortunately, it turns out that many of the legal conclusions regarding the Gaza fighting are not affected by the precise nature of Gaza’s status. The essay notes those instances where Gaza’s status does affect the ultimate legal determination.

1. The Legality of Israeli Military Actions under Jus ad Bellum

The law of jus ad bellum, as codified by the UN Charter, prevents using military force against another state. However, Article 51 of the Charter excludes self-defense from this ban on the use of force. Furthermore, jus ad bellum does not restrict the use of force in non-international conflicts.

Israel’s right to use force in defending itself against Palestinian attacks from Gaza is clear, notwithstanding the uncertain legal status of the Gaza Strip, which makes it difficult to determine the grounds on which Israel’s actions should be analyzed. If Gaza should be seen as having independent sovereignty, Israel’s use of force is permissible on the grounds of self-defense. On the other hand, if Gaza is properly seen as lacking any independent sovereignty, Israel’s use of military force is permissible as in other non-international conflicts.

2. The Legality of Israeli Military Actions under International Humanitarian Law

International humanitarian law regulates the use of force once military action is underway, irrespective of its legality under jus ad bellum. The two most basic principles of international humanitarian law are the rules of distinction and proportionality. Israel’s counterstrikes have abided by both these rules.

Distinction:

The rule of distinction requires aiming attacks only at legitimate (e.g., military and support) targets. The rule of distinction includes elements of intent and expected result: so long as one aims at legitimate targets, the rule of distinction permits the attack, even if there will be collateral damage to civilians and even if, in retrospect, the attack was a mistake based on faulty intelligence. Israel has aimed its strikes at the locations from which rockets have been fired, Palestinian combatants bearing weapons and transporting arms, Palestinian terrorist commanders, and support and command and control centers. Locations such as Interior Ministry buildings from which Hamas directs some military activities are objects that make a contribution to Hamas’ military actions and are therefore legitimate targets, even though they also have civilian functions.

By contrast, the Palestinian attacks are aimed at Israeli civilians and therefore violate the rule of distinction. Moreover, one of the corollaries of the rule of distinction is a ban on the use of weapons that are incapable, under the circumstances, of being properly aimed at legitimate targets. The rockets and projectile weapons being used by the Palestinian attackers are primitive weapons that cannot be aimed at specific targets, and must be launched at the center of urban areas. This means that the very use of the weapons under current circumstances violates international humanitarian law.

Proportionality:

The rule of proportionality places limits on collateral damage. While collateral damage to civilian and other protected targets is permitted, collateral damage is forbidden if it is expected to be excessive in relation to the military need. Prosecutions for war crimes on the basis of disproportionate collateral damage are rare, and it is difficult to see how a credible claim can be made that any of Israel’s counterstrikes have created disproportionate collateral damage. Moreover, like distinction, the rule of proportionality relies upon intent. If Israel plans a strike without expecting excessive collateral damage, the rule of proportionality permits it, even if, in retrospect, Israel turns out to have erred in its damage estimates.

All reported Israeli strikes in the latest round of fighting have been aimed at legitimate targets and none has caused excessive collateral damage. Legal advisors attached to Israeli military units review proposed military actions and apply an extremely restrictive standard of both distinction and proportionality, in accordance with expansive Israeli Supreme Court rulings. It is thus likely that future Israeli measures will continue to abide by the rules of distinction and proportionality.

Retorsion:

Israel’s imposition of economic sanctions on the Gaza Strip, such as withholding fuel supplies and electricity, does not involve the use of military force and is therefore a perfectly legal means of responding to Palestinian attacks, despite the effects on Palestinian citizens. The use of economic and other non-military sanctions as a means of “punishing” other international actors for their misbehavior is a practice known as “retorsion.” It is generally acknowledged that every country may engage in retorsion so long as the underlying acts are themselves legal. Indeed, it is acknowledged that states may even go beyond retorsion to carry out non-belligerent reprisals-non-military acts that would otherwise be illegal (such as suspending flight agreements) as countermeasures. Since Israel is under no legal obligation to engage in trade of fuel or anything else with the Gaza Strip, or to maintain open borders with the Gaza Strip, it may withhold commercial items and seal its borders at its discretion, even if intended as “punishment” for Palestinian terrorism.





Collective Punishment:

While international law bars “collective punishment,” none of Israel’s combat actions and retorsions may be considered collective punishment. The bar on collective punishment forbids the imposition of criminal-type penalties to individuals or groups on the basis of another’s guilt. None of Israel’s actions involve the imposition of criminal-type penalties.

Examples of retorsions are legion in international affairs. The United States, for example, froze trade with Iran after the 1979 Revolution and with Uganda in 1978 after accusations of genocide. In 2000, fourteen European states suspended various diplomatic relations with Austria in protest of the participation of Jorg Haider in the government. Numerous states suspended trade and diplomatic relations with South Africa as punishment for apartheid practices. Obviously, in none of these cases was a charge raised of “collective punishment.”

3. The Legality of Israeli Military Actions under the Laws of Occupation

Some groups have claimed that the Gaza Strip should be considered “occupied” by Israel according to the Fourth Geneva Convention, in which case Israel would be required to “ensure the food and medical supplies of the population,” as well as “agree to relief schemes on behalf of the…population” and maintain “public health and hygiene.”

Due to internal political considerations as well as rulings by the Israeli Supreme Court, Israel continues to maintain the flow of basic humanitarian supplies such as food, medicine and water to the Palestinian population of Gaza. In a recent case (Albassiouni v. Prime Minister, HCJ 9132/07), the Israeli Supreme Court implied that it interpreted domestic Israeli administrative law to require the Israeli government to maintain a minimum flow of Israeli-supplied necessary humanitarian goods when engaging in retorsional acts such as cutting off the Israeli supply of electricity to Gaza. Thus, even if there were a legal basis for considering Gaza Israeli-occupied territory, Israel would be fulfilling its duties under the Fourth Geneva Convention.

However, there is no legal basis for maintaining that Gaza is occupied territory. The Fourth Geneva Convention refers to territory as occupied where the territory is of another “High Contracting Party” (i.e., a state party to the convention) and the occupier “exercises the functions of government” in the occupied territory. The Gaza Strip is not territory of another state party to the convention and Israel does not exercise the functions of government-or, indeed, any significant functions-in the territory. It is clear to all that the elected Hamas government is the de facto sovereign of the Gaza Strip and does not take direction from Israel, or from any other state.

Some have argued that states can be considered occupiers even of areas where they do not declare themselves in control so long as the putative occupiers have effective control. For instance, in 2005, the International Court of Justice opined that Uganda could be considered the occupier of Congolese territory over which it had “substituted [its] own authority for that of the Congolese Government” even in the absence of a formal military administration. Some have argued that this shows that occupation may occur even in the absence of a full-scale military presence and claimed that this renders Israel an occupier under the Fourth Geneva Convention. However, these claims are clearly without merit. First, Israel does not otherwise fulfill the conditions of being an occupier; in particular, Israel does not exercise the functions of government in Gaza, and it has not substituted its authority for the de facto Hamas government. Second, Israel cannot project effective control in Gaza. Indeed, Israelis and Palestinians well know that projecting such control would require an extensive military operation amounting to the armed conquest of Gaza. Military superiority over a neighbor, and the ability to conquer a neighbor in an extensive military operation, does not itself constitute occupation. If it did, the United States would have to be considered the occupier of Mexico, Egypt the occupier of Libya and Gaza, and China the occupier of North Korea.

Moreover, it is difficult to avoid the conclusion that foes of Israel claiming that Israel has legal duties as the “occupier” of Gaza are insincere in their legal analysis. If Israel were indeed properly considered an occupier, under Article 43 of the regulations attached to the Fourth Hague Convention of 1907, it would be required to take “all the measures in [its] power to restore, and ensure, as far as possible, public order and safety.” Thus, those who contend that Israel is in legal occupation of Gaza must also support and even demand Israeli military operations in order to disarm Palestinian terror groups and militias. Additionally, claims of occupation necessarily rely upon a belief that the occupying power is not the true sovereign of the occupied territory. For that reason, those who claim that Israel occupies Gaza must believe that the border between Israel and Gaza is an international border between separate sovereignties. Yet, many of those claiming that Gaza is occupied, like John Dugard, also simultaneously and inconsistently claim that Israel is legally obliged to open the borders between Israel and Gaza. No state is required to leave its international borders open.

4. The Legality of Israeli Military Actions under International Human Rights Law

Under the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights, Israel is required to ensure the protection of certain rights “within its territory” including the right to life. The application of the covenant to Israeli activities in the Gaza Strip is questionable as it is unlikely that the Gaza Strip should be considered Israel’s territory. Nonetheless, Israel has abided by the requirements of the convention, if it applies to Gaza. In combat situations the meaning of the rights in the convention is established by the rules of international humanitarian law. Thus, Israel is protecting the human rights of Palestinian residents of the Gaza Strip by abiding by international humanitarian law.

5. Duties of Israel under the Genocide Convention

Article Two of the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of Genocide defines any killing with intent “to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such” as an act of genocide. Given expressions of intent by some of the Palestinian terrorist groups to kill Jews as a group due to their ethnic identity (such as the Hamas charter’s call for an armed struggle against all Jews until judgment day), all the members of such groups who carry out killings are guilty of the crime of genocide under the convention. Under Article One of the convention, Israel and other signatories are required to “prevent and punish” not only persons who carry out such genocidal acts, but those who conspire with them, incite them to kill, and are complicit with their actions. The convention thus requires Israel to prevent and punish the terrorists themselves, as well as public figures who have publicly supported the Palestinian attacks.

6. Duties of Israel under Anti-Terrorism Conventions

The International Convention for the Suppression of the Financing of Terrorism requires Israel (like other state parties to the convention) to prevent the collection of funds intended to support terrorist attacks. The Palestinian attacks fall under the definition of terrorist attacks under Article 2(1)(b) of the convention because they are aimed at Israeli civilians in violation of the rule of distinction, and they are intended to kill or seriously injure civilians in order to intimidate a population. If Gaza is considered “territory of [the] state” of Israel, Israel is legally required to establish jurisdiction over Palestinian terrorist crimes under the convention; if Gaza is not Israeli territory, Israel is permitted to establish jurisdiction over the terrorist crimes.

Additionally, the convention establishes that Israel is not only permitted to impose certain economic sanctions on the de facto rulers of the Gaza Strip, it is required to do so.

Under a related convention, the International Convention for the Suppression of Terrorist Bombings, it is a crime to bomb public places (such as city streets) with the intent to kill civilians, by persons who are non-nationals of the state of which the victims are nationals. Under this convention too, the Palestinian attackers must be considered international terrorists and Israel is either required or permitted (depending on whether Gaza is Israeli “territory”) to assume criminal jurisdiction over the Palestinian terrorists committing these acts. Additionally, other states signed on the convention-such as the United States, Russia, Turkey and France-must cooperate in helping to combat such Palestinian terrorist acts.

Finally, Security Council Resolution 1373 requires states to “deny safe haven to those who finance, plan, support, or commit terrorist acts, or provide safe havens” and “prevent the movement of terrorists or terrorist groups.” The resolution was adopted under Chapter VII and is therefore apparently binding on all states, although some have argued that the resolution is not binding because the Security Council is not authorized to enact quasi-legislation. While the resolution does not define terrorism, it references the International Convention for the Suppression of the Financing of Terrorism, making it clear that the Palestinian attackers from Gaza fall within the scope of the international terrorists covered by the resolution. Consequently, if binding, this resolution requires Israel to take steps to deny safe haven to Palestinian attackers from Gaza and to prevent their free movement.

Conclusion

The Palestinian-Israeli fighting in Gaza has been characterized by the extensive commission of war crimes, acts of terrorism and acts of genocide by Palestinian fighters, while Israeli countermeasures have conformed with the requirements of international law.

International law requires states to take measures to bring Palestinian war criminals and terrorists to justice, to prevent and punish Palestinian genocidal efforts, and to block the funding of Palestinian terrorist groups and those complicit with them.

* * *

Dr. Avi Bell is a member of the Faculty of Law at Bar-Ilan University, Visiting Professor at Fordham University Law School, and Director of the International Law Forum at the Jerusalem Center for Public Affairs.
 

Abwx

Lifer
Apr 2, 2011
12,004
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civilians in war zones get killed. that's the down side of war.


So be prepared when the tables turn, who lives by the sword will perish by the sword , i guess that you know it, the pseudo state called israhell will last what did last the old local christian states created by european war lords.

Or do you think like hitler that you have created a reich that will last one thousand years.?..

Agree that you match the ideology, though..

and also, Hamas doesn't own that land. they forcefully threw out the PLO in 2006, public hangings and all. the world should let israel overthrow the hamas government, let the PLO back in and MAYBE then, after the situation settles as it is in the west bank, peace talks can begin.

Property titles have nothing to do with political parties but i guess that stealers dont embarass themselves with legals issues.
 
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JEDIYoda

Lifer
Jul 13, 2005
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Crap, there shira. Krautheimer, is restating the propaganda PR line of Israel is good, Palestinians are evil, particularly because Israel withdrew colonies and occupation from the quite densely populated little region of the Gaza strip.

In all disregard to balance and honesty, nothing is expressed to recognise Israel diversion to more greatly intensify the annexation and colonisation into the more desirable West Bank, while increasing draconian security measures and controls against the local Palestinian populations.

A BS and typically expected Israeli state PR piece you found there, shira.

It's of no surprise, that many here have avoided addressing my post on the last page concerning law and Israeli intentions for illegally expanding that state at the expense of native and titled inhabitants.
Nobody addressed your post because most of us realize that International Law means nothing......you can post all the links you want -- it still is not enforceable and still means nothing.

Yet I can use International law to support Israel`s latest ground assault into Gaza.....in fact International law supports iIraels right to defend itself...

http://jcpa.org/article/internationa...-self-defense/

International law authorizes Israel to initiate military countermeasures in Gaza. If Gaza is seen as having independent sovereignty, Israel&#8217;s use of force is permissible on the grounds of self-defense. If Gaza is seen as lacking any independent sovereignty, Israel&#8217;s use of military force is permissible as in other non-international conflicts.



The rule of &#8220;distinction&#8221; includes elements of intent and expected result: so long as one aims at legitimate targets, the rule of distinction permits the attack, even if there will be collateral damage to civilians. The rule of &#8220;proportionality&#8221; also relies upon intent. If Israel plans a strike without expecting excessive collateral damage, the rule of proportionality permits it. Israeli attacks to date have abided by the rules of distinction and proportionality.


Israel&#8217;s imposition of economic sanctions on the Gaza Strip is a perfectly legal means of responding to Palestinian attacks. Since Israel is under no legal obligation to engage in trade of fuel or anything else with Gaza, or to maintain open borders, it may withhold commercial items and seal its borders at its discretion.



The bar on collective punishment forbids the imposition of criminal-type penalties to individuals or groups on the basis of another&#8217;s guilt. None of Israel&#8217;s actions involve the imposition of criminal-type penalties.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
88,239
55,791
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Nobody addressed your post because most of us realize that International Law means nothing......you can post all the links you want -- it still is not enforceable and still means nothing.

Yet I can use International law to support Israel`s latest ground assault into Gaza.....in fact International law supports iIraels right to defend itself...

http://jcpa.org/article/internationa...-self-defense/

International law authorizes Israel to initiate military countermeasures in Gaza. If Gaza is seen as having independent sovereignty, Israel’s use of force is permissible on the grounds of self-defense. If Gaza is seen as lacking any independent sovereignty, Israel’s use of military force is permissible as in other non-international conflicts.



The rule of “distinction” includes elements of intent and expected result: so long as one aims at legitimate targets, the rule of distinction permits the attack, even if there will be collateral damage to civilians. The rule of “proportionality” also relies upon intent. If Israel plans a strike without expecting excessive collateral damage, the rule of proportionality permits it. Israeli attacks to date have abided by the rules of distinction and proportionality.


Israel’s imposition of economic sanctions on the Gaza Strip is a perfectly legal means of responding to Palestinian attacks. Since Israel is under no legal obligation to engage in trade of fuel or anything else with Gaza, or to maintain open borders, it may withhold commercial items and seal its borders at its discretion.



The bar on collective punishment forbids the imposition of criminal-type penalties to individuals or groups on the basis of another’s guilt. None of Israel’s actions involve the imposition of criminal-type penalties.

Your position is rejected by not only the rest of the world, but the ICJ. Sorry, Israel is a rogue state.
 

JEDIYoda

Lifer
Jul 13, 2005
33,986
3,321
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Your position is rejected by not only the rest of the world, but the ICJ. Sorry, Israel is a rogue state.
Your talking about a court that has no powers of enforcement or Jurisdiction.....
Your talking about a court that from day one has been highly biased against Israel.....

Your talking about a court that has said that Israel is NOT allowed to protect its citizens....
http://www.timesofisrael.com/icj-treatment-of-israel-biased-as-seen-in-syria/
&#8220;The fact that the General Assembly referred the matter of the terror prevention fence to the ICJ so quickly&#8230; but after more than two years and 100,000 people killed,&#8221; has yet to prosecute Assad or Syria shows the system is extremely flawed, he says. &#8220;The legal system is biased against Israel, and the Syrian example proves it.&#8221;

In a July 2004 advisory opinion issued by the ICJ, it called upon Israel to remove the barrier and compensate those damaged by its initial construction. It also listed other Israeli actions it viewed as illegal, which had little to do with the barrier itself.

Heideman says the court didn&#8217;t look at the context in which the fence was built. &#8220;The fact that it was constructed after years of fighting,&#8221; or that &#8220;it was built because hundreds of Israelis were killed and thousands hurt in terror bombings&#8221; wasn&#8217;t addressed by the court.

&#8220;Those who asked the ICJ for its opinion worded the questions in a way that would harm Israel,&#8221; the lawyer argues. &#8220;They referred to the fence as a wall,&#8221; he says, in an effort &#8220;to make Israel look bad&#8230; Whoever studies the topic knows that only 5-10 percent of the terror-preventing barrier is a wall; the rest is a fence.&#8221;


Read more: 'ICJ treatment of Israel biased, as seen in Syria' | The Times of Israel http://www.timesofisrael.com/icj-treatment-of-israel-biased-as-seen-in-syria/#ixzz3834jDpOL
Follow us: @timesofisrael on Twitter | timesofisrael on Facebook
 

JEDIYoda

Lifer
Jul 13, 2005
33,986
3,321
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Think about this for one moment --
-- Whose fault is it?
If it`s your father or uncle or brother who is firing those rockets into Israel..whose fault is it really?


Do you really expect the israeli`s not to retaliate?

To understans this better we need to look at thee Hamas Charter...which even though the rook out article 10......their leaders as of 2012 had called for the destruction os israel....
Yet even now the charter calls for the murder of Jews in general...

Hamas doesn`t care if they kill israeli citizens...but they don`t care if Palestinian civilians die...for Hamas until recently having palestinians die has been a huge public relations coup for Hamas!! To Hamas that is a win, win!!

It has been said that Israel is using a misle defense system to protect its citizens and Hamas is using it`s citizens to protect it`s missles!

If Hamas had the opportunity they would kill the maximum number Israeli`s they could....
Yet Israel has the opportinity to kill way more people and they do not.....

An amazing fact -- I thought this was comical of sorts --
If you are israel you have to win every war or military engagement.....to continue to be Israel you cannot go 8 and 1.....

Then we have the fact that everybody wins when that region of the world is peaceful! At present nobody is winning....both sides will win when the region is in peace!!

The palestinian people have made some very bad choices of their own leaders and are victimized by their leaders...

Israel withdrew from Gaza in 2005.....it`s not occupying Gaza.
Then the Palestinians elected Hamas in 2007!

Truth be told Israel doesn`t want to be in gaza...Israel wants to take out tunnels and missle launchers and leave Gaza...

If hamas truly cared about the Palestinians people they would have built underground shelters for the people! Instead they built tunnels to smuggle and hide missle launchers...

Nuff said....here is the piece that I took most of this information from....no I did not verify it..but most of the point are basic and true.....nobody cares about this that or who did what...these are things that matter presently.....

http://news.yahoo.com/daily-caller-editor-drops-truth-bill-maher-audience-140209477.html